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I spent some time thinking about multiple-life fights against AM, because that's a possibility. And the wizard has a huge advantage there: he only has to beat AM once (and there have been several examples shown of how that'll happen, possibly on the first encounter) to win forever: imprisonment. Or soul bind. Or temporal stasis. AM can't sunder any of these, because he's either dead or in suspended animation. Personally, I'll go with soul bind, and just keep the gem in a display case in my mountain fortress (What? Yeah, of COURSE it's shaped like a skull), along with all the other gems from all the other AM MARTIAL folks who think that a fight with a wizard ends as soon as you kill him. Oh, and the skull mountain fortress is in a demiplane; good luck finding it.
EDIT: Oh, and don't start with the 'AM has a buddy who'll come get him' bit, because if he does, he's proven he can't beat a caster without another caster to hold him up. I've got ways of getting back up after AM kills me, in the unlikely event he manages it. He doesn't.
1. I will have a clone.2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
Nice ideas. The only problems are the inherent limitations of the spell. Let us take Contact Other Plane--at 20th contacting a deity in an outer plane is trivial and has the best response rate. There is still a 10% chance it lies or randomly answers. So AM BARBARIAN is practically knocking on your door and the greater deity says "nah, every things cool go outside in your jammies today."
Commune with nature has an inherent limitation in miles/level which means 20 miles max (though your cohort is lower level). AM BARBARIAN is moving very fast an could likely be outside your "hey what's up nature" zone.
Planar binding requires an opposed charisma check. Notice the succubus has a 27 charisma and you have a 15. She will win those checks much more often than you do. You can also only offer once every 24 hours. Now you could keep several bindings going on at once to increase the chance than on a particular day you will succeed but you increase the chance of escape as that is also charisma based.
Knocking on my door is far better than catching me flying out in the middle of nowhere. I'm completely fine with him figuring out how to get to my house and bashing his way in. Gives me plenty of time to prepare. Isn't that the reason it's so important he catch us flying and unaware is because he wants to charge? He won't charge anything if he gives me time to cast defensive spells.
Are you missing out on his build?
1. He is waiting for me to come out. He has to be within 18 miles to do that.
2. 10% fail chance. Sure, I'll take that. Nothing is perfect.
3. I don't need to make an opposed Charisma check. I'll tell it straight out it will do what I want or it will die. It's a calling and I'm much, much stronger than it is. Even if it tries to run, I'll summon it back and kill it at a later date. Or I'll charm it. It's will save is lower than it's charisma. Why do you think I chose a succubus? They're weak and cheap at lvl 20.
Trying to trump me? You don't have it in you.
I am immuscular, tiny erudite wizard. You meat puppets are beneath me. You think you can catch me out flying about for an easy kill and it will be over? Nothing is over. Nothing. If you happen to get lucky and kill me once, I'll be back for your soul. You will become nothing more than my worthless puppet. I'll take your body and make you fight until your body is shredded and meat for some creature in a dark cave. Know your place, AM BARBARIAN. You are dealing with enemies far beyond your miserable mental capacity to deal with. You think you can kill me with a simple surprise lance strike. Think again, meat puppet. You fear me, I don't fear you.
He does have one way to identify a casty - spend a standard action to glare suspiciously at them if they come within 120 ft. His permanent arcane sight then tells him whether they're a casty, whether they're arcane or divine, and the highest level of spell they can curently cast. Unless they're mind blanked, I suppose. But at that point we have the argument of whether he can see the abjuration aura of the mind blank spell, and so on. (Don't let's get into whether mind blank hides magical auras on the caster from detection. That's already been hashed out pages ago, with no real resolution.)
How did he permanency arcane sight on himself when he can't cast? I suppose he also has maxed out rank in use magical device and is using scrolls?
Doing so means a UMD check with DC 30 for the scroll of Permanency (which isn't impossible I agree) just to emulate the intelligence of 15, and a DC 40 UMD check to actually use the scroll at caster level 20. This is in addition to the need for a DC 28 check for the scroll of arcane sight and DC 40 check to cast that spell too. This is of course barring mind blank, which of course specifically states it stops all divination magic which means it stops all divination magic.
AND he still needs to know that there's a reason to check for a casty and be within 120 feet of said caster to even make these checks.
As a hunter of casters he's not doing so hot.
I do think you are over thinking this Abraham, AM was kinda a unintentional bit of awesome. The idea of casters hiding and the rest only came in after about 700 pages of posts had shown that the direct approach just wasn't working. By this point I think AM has very much proven his point,that casters can bleed too.
While I agree it's very difficult to actually kill a prepared caster, before these threads how many casters would have put this much effort into defending themselves from a single classed barbarian?
Plus the idea of all these caster walking round with 24 hour mind blank/invisibility rings, earth gliding, and various other methods that, lets be honest, they probably wouldn't have bothered having up before that highly amuses me.
Besides, no-ones actually come up with a reliable way to kill off AM yet, so that suggests a end to this whole "caster-martial" debate in my opinion.
Honestly it's a very stupid caster that doesn't have his defenses prepared in general at that level.
However if I wanted to kill AM I would probably use a fighter.
Nobody is perfect after all.
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1. I will have a clone.2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
Nice ideas. The only problems are the inherent limitations of the spell. Let us take Contact Other Plane--at 20th contacting a deity in an outer plane is trivial and has the best response rate. There is still a 10% chance it lies or randomly answers. So AM BARBARIAN is practically knocking on your door and the greater deity says "nah, every things cool go outside in your jammies today."
Commune with nature has an inherent limitation in miles/level which means 20 miles max (though your cohort is lower level). AM BARBARIAN is moving very fast an could likely be outside your "hey what's up nature" zone.
Planar binding requires an opposed charisma check. Notice the succubus has a 27 charisma and you have a 15. She will win those checks much more often than you do. You can also only offer once every 24 hours. Now you could keep several bindings going on at once to increase the chance than on a particular day you will succeed but you increase the chance of escape as that is also charisma based.
Knocking on my door is far better than catching me flying out in the middle of nowhere. I'm completely fine with him figuring out how to get to my house and bashing his way in. Gives me plenty of time to prepare. Isn't that the reason it's so important he catch us flying and unaware is because he wants to charge? He won't charge anything if he gives me time to cast defensive spells.
Are you missing out on his build?
1. He is waiting for me to come out. He has to be...
My point is that those spells will not give sufficient warning against significant peril. Lets talk about another wizard trying to kill you. He can teleport. 20 miles is nothing to teleport. Also your contact other plane might tell you oh yea some powerful fighter dude with a sword is gonna come get you when you pop to town for groceries. So you think ok cool, prep spells for fighter dude--prep rest of spells for general danger.
Bad wizard pops up--he is more prepared than you. There is a chance you are gonna lose a clone today. Now this guy is a wizard when you are dead he immediately scrys for you so he can get you when you are negative level and con and finish you but good.
I am not an AM BARBARIAN fan --if anything I generally play wizards--but as a general adventuring wizard protection set up I think it stinks.
You know it's funny that you are the first person to propose an idea that actually allowed a casty to interact with the world and not be a hermit living in a constant blanket of protection and invisibility spells?Congratulations. Your character has a social life.
Yeah I just play my casters that way. Honestly I generally find this to be more protection than any amount of spell casting.
"Gee I'm a guy with phenomenal cosmic power but for some reason the only thing I do is sit here and be paranoid so I got to hunt barbarians" is the sort of logic leap I don't really understand.
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Also the 10% is not a fail chance it is a bad information chance. The chance you get information that is not even true. The true problem with that chance is that you do not know when you are getting good or bad information when you get it. So you either have to treat all the information as good (bad choice) or all the information as bad (wasted a spell then).
...
1. I will have a clone.2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
Nice ideas. The only problems are the inherent limitations of the spell. Let us take Contact Other Plane--at 20th contacting a deity in an outer plane is trivial and has the best response rate. There is still a 10% chance it lies or randomly answers. So AM BARBARIAN is practically knocking on your door and the greater deity says "nah, every things cool go outside in your jammies today."
Commune with nature has an inherent limitation in miles/level which means 20 miles max (though your cohort is lower level). AM BARBARIAN is moving very fast an could likely be outside your "hey what's up nature" zone.
Planar binding requires an opposed charisma check. Notice the succubus has a 27 charisma and you have a 15. She will win those checks much more often than you do. You can also only offer once every 24 hours. Now you could keep several bindings going on at once to increase the chance than on a particular day you will succeed but you increase the chance of escape as that is also charisma based.
Knocking on my door is far better than catching me flying out in the middle of nowhere. I'm completely fine with him figuring out how to get to my house and bashing his way in. Gives me plenty of time to prepare. Isn't that the reason it's so important he catch us flying and unaware is because he wants to charge? He won't charge anything if he gives me time to cast defensive spells.
Are you missing out on his build?
1. He is waiting for me to come
You think it stinks? Well, I'm sorry. I don't have time to set up the network of animals and creatures I would have patrolling and giving me information about movement in my area. So I used some general divination spells available to me to gain advance notice of the attack.
Normally I have a much better intelligence network of charmed or summoned creatures engaged in scouting around my place and giving me intelligence. By lvl 20 I do a pretty bang up job of securing my place and monitoring enemies.
But this is an exercise of coming with an idea for countering the first alphastrike and putting AM BARBARIAN on the defensive. I think it's a pretty sound plan as far as available spells go.
But of course if this were established character versus established character, then I would know my area, have contacts in the area, and have a nice flow of information coming to me about AM BARBARIAN's approach.
The only thing I'm trying to show is that a wizard will still beat this build and beat it soundly. If AM BARBARIAN doesn't produce the entire build and set up a thread to go round versus round versus his build, then what can we really prove? My tactics are sound and will work as I said they will unless AM BARBARIAN's alters his actions.
You know it's funny that you are the first person to propose an idea that actually allowed a casty to interact with the world and not be a hermit living in a constant blanket of protection and invisibility spells?Congratulations. Your character has a social life.
Yeah I just play my casters that way. Honestly I generally find this to be more protection than any amount of spell casting.
"Gee I'm a guy with phenomenal cosmic power but for some reason the only thing I do is sit here and be paranoid so I got to hunt barbarians" is the sort of logic leap I don't really understand.
You're saying this in a thread where a guy made a specific barbarian build to beat casters? Do you see the problem with that as far as logic goes?
had a weird thought -
AM BARBARIAN charges in, takes out casty.
AM teps back, pulls out card, drops on casty.
Batty Bat flies away.
Casty wakes up (Percieved State has Merciful as part of enchantment), reads card,
DR. BARBARIAN AM BARBARIAN, PHD
SECURITY CONSULTANT
WHAT DOESN'T KILL YOU CAN MAKE YOU STRONGER!
Also the 10% is not a fail chance it is a bad information chance. The chance you get information that is not even true. The true problem with that chance is that you do not know when you are getting good or bad information when you get it. So you either have to treat all the information as good (bad choice) or all the information as bad (wasted a spell then).
Like I said, I'll take the 10% chance.
Or maybe I'll have my Planetar from True Name cast commune to elimnate that 10%.
Or maybe I'll send out prying eyes to scout the area.
I have a lot of options.
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Way back when, in the dawn of history, AM posted something about how BATTY BAT has a +65-ish bonus to perception, which would give him the jump on any wizard. Let's take a moment to think that through.
My wizard has invisibility up, which gives a +20 to stealth;
Ten ranks in Stealth, +10;
A +10 item for good measure;
A Dex of, oh, 20, let's say (16 base, +4 item), for a +5 bonus.
My wizard's stealth bonus, standing (hey, look, another +20 for not moving!) in the field, waiting for AM, is +65. And I can take 20, because he won't show up for a while. How's he going to know I'm here again? With a stealth check of 85? And mind blank up? Yeah, when he gets to 40 feet, BATTY BAT's blindsense might spot me...but by then, he's already been hit with waves of exhaustion, and this fight's over.
You're saying this in a thread where a guy made a specific barbarian build to beat casters? Do you see the problem with that as far as logic goes?
You know it's funny that you are the first person to propose an idea that actually allowed a casty to interact with the world and not be a hermit living in a constant blanket of protection and invisibility spells?Congratulations. Your character has a social life.
Yeah I just play my casters that way. Honestly I generally find this to be more protection than any amount of spell casting.
"Gee I'm a guy with phenomenal cosmic power but for some reason the only thing I do is sit here and be paranoid so I got to hunt barbarians" is the sort of logic leap I don't really understand.
Yeah kind of, its a bit out of place but the problem is that AM wants to hunt castys and make them go squish -- but he still doesn't have the means to actually do that -- hunt casters, specifically equal level casters.
His main problem right now is the unreliability of his method. He must charge, he must have line of sight and he must be able to finish it before the casty gets away otherwise he has at most a draw where the casty lives, at which point he has failed at his intended goal.
Now if his stated goal was, "To squish all casty that attack me." He would be in much better shape, but he didn't and he hasn't and even that would come with its own number of issues.
Way back when, in the dawn of history, AM posted something about how BATTY BAT has a +65-ish bonus to perception, which would give him the jump on any wizard. Let's take a moment to think that through.
My wizard has invisibility up, which gives a +20 to stealth;
Ten ranks in Stealth, +10;
A +10 item for good measure;
A Dex of, oh, 20, let's say (16 base, +4 item), for a +5 bonus.My wizard's stealth bonus, standing (hey, look, another +20 for not moving!) in the field, waiting for AM, is +65. And I can take 20, because he won't show up for a while. How's he going to know I'm here again? With a stealth check of 85? And mind blank up? Yeah, when he gets to 40 feet, BATTY BAT's blindsense might spot me...but by then, he's already been hit with waves of exhaustion, and this fight's over.
This is also ignoring the fact that there are penalties to the perception check based on distance.
Honestly getting a high stealth check is easier than getting a high perception check.
Actually, no you can't. The simple act of making "a build" to specifically take on AM BARBARIAN means he wins as a build. This may be heading into logical fallacy territory but think of it this way: AM BARBARIAN is a build designed to take on all castys. If said castys make a build to specifically take him on then we have come full circle by which will also be invalidated because AM BARBARIAN is being designed to take on ALL castys.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the fact that people are putting this much time and effort into trying to kill ONE imaginary Barbarian with magic proves how powerful the build can potentially be even though it isn't complete yet. That means AM wins.
By jove, you're right! By combining one of the most powerful martial classes beefed up with plenty of casty juju and arguably the most broken casty class into a single build, AM has proven that "martial" characters can beat all castys. You're so right! Why could I not have seen this before? :P Forget the fact that a build that can take on AM can likely take on just about any other threat that comes his way. And if the only other threats that can take on casty-who-kills-am is other castys, AM proved no point, but that's irrelevant as AM has no points to make (Trinam does).
AM is the result of literally thousands of posts of refinement and still has yet to be completed. When somebody comes into this thread late in the game and makes a few posts, the AM DEFENSE FORCE is super happy to shoot them down tell them how silly they are on their first build or two. Give them 3000 posts so they can refine their build to be a broken murdering machine and then turn on the "AM teh winnar, oh snap, girlfriend!" posts :P Incidentally, pretty sure AM already declared everyone the winner, no?
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Way back when, in the dawn of history, AM posted something about how BATTY BAT has a +65-ish bonus to perception, which would give him the jump on any wizard. Let's take a moment to think that through.
My wizard has invisibility up, which gives a +20 to stealth;
Ten ranks in Stealth, +10;
A +10 item for good measure;
A Dex of, oh, 20, let's say (16 base, +4 item), for a +5 bonus.My wizard's stealth bonus, standing (hey, look, another +20 for not moving!) in the field, waiting for AM, is +65. And I can take 20, because he won't show up for a while. How's he going to know I'm here again? With a stealth check of 85? And mind blank up? Yeah, when he gets to 40 feet, BATTY BAT's blindsense might spot me...but by then, he's already been hit with waves of exhaustion, and this fight's over.
This is also ignoring the fact that there are penalties to the perception check based on distance.
Honestly getting a high stealth check is easier than getting a high perception check.
I didn't bother with distance penalties, because without BATTY BAT's blindsense (or blindsight, whichever it is) AM couldn't find me if I was standing right next to him. And I've only put ten ranks into Stealth, and only made a +10 item. I could easily have +20/+20, since I've got more than enough skill points and gold. Heck, with the +20/+20, AM couldn't find me even if I was moving.
Actually, there is a problem with this point.
#6. 'I teleport lots of stuff on top of him to tire him out.'
How, exactly? This has been an ongoing problem with the 'teleportation' thing and I'd like an answer to it. The closest we've hit on was burning a wish spell to do it (and bear in mind you're BURNING A WISH SPELL to do it) and even that was predicated on the theory that you can teleport to a condition and not a location.
How do you know where he is and teleport into a landmark in midair to get to him?
Actually, there is a problem with this point.
#6. 'I teleport lots of stuff on top of him to tire him out.'
How, exactly? This has been an ongoing problem with the 'teleportation' thing and I'd like an answer to it. The closest we've hit on was burning a wish spell to do it (and bear in mind you're BURNING A WISH SPELL to do it) and even that was predicated on the theory that you can teleport to a condition and not a location.
How do you know where he is and teleport into a landmark in midair to get to him?
You don't. The teleport stuff plan likely wouldn't work even if all the rules supported it. Martial characters don't get tired out and it's not that expensive for AM to have some healing items for the little damage he would take.
You don't. The teleport stuff plan likely wouldn't work even if all the rules supported it. Martial characters don't get tired out and it's not that expensive for AM to have some healing items for the little damage he would take.Actually, there is a problem with this point.
#6. 'I teleport lots of stuff on top of him to tire him out.'
How, exactly? This has been an ongoing problem with the 'teleportation' thing and I'd like an answer to it. The closest we've hit on was burning a wish spell to do it (and bear in mind you're BURNING A WISH SPELL to do it) and even that was predicated on the theory that you can teleport to a condition and not a location.
How do you know where he is and teleport into a landmark in midair to get to him?
And since the lynchpin of his plan is 'tire out AM then attack him while he sleeps...'
And since even if we assume AM must sleep, he'd be doing it on horseback at 97 mph on the back of a Summoner 17/Oracle 1 that's immune to fatigue and thus doesn't have to sleep... (Real men sleep sitting up.)
That therefore means that you don't have a way to get to him.
The question then becomes 'where does your character hang out between adventures?' I'm guessing the answer is magnificent mansion, right?
Magnificent mansion won't be much help either. It'd get spell sundered EVENTUALLY (Note: May take a long time for the eventuality to occur), ending the effect, and suddenly there's a sleeping wizard. You can act in the surprise round, but you're sleeping.
I'd also point out that 341 HP is not nearly enough of a buffer, as a full-attack still murders the wizard due to the absolutely insane 3d8+168 he's doing per hit to castys.
This thread is making me think AM is like global thermonuclear war.
'An interesting game... it appears the only winning move is not to play.'
The only thing I'm trying to show is that a wizard will still beat this build and beat it soundly.
Here's a funny thing.
It doesn't really prove anything in terms of "Casty vs. Barbarian"
Let me explain. I can do everything you just stated with a sufficiently high enough level Expert or Aristocrat. The difference in these scenarios, to me at least, isn't finding out whether or not he'll kill you and make appropriate preparations. Rather it's about how exactly you kill him.
So how do you kill him? Or if you prefer "defeat" him? You find out about him. Now what?
To elaborate further you are basically saying you would take elaborate roleplaying measures to ensure you are aware of every notable character (particularly those out for your blood) within your realm. This is fine but it's working off the assumption that AM BARBARIAN is flying solo and not taking elaborate roleplaying measures to lead AM HORDE. Up until now AM BARBARIAN and the "stupid" wizards have been happy to stick to a generally one on one scenario. By bringing networks and contacts in you're falling into BBEG territory where you set up elaborate traps and ruses only to find yourself standing toe to toe with him on the roof of your astral fortress (also phylactery) with him and his four plucky friends some years later and wonder to yourself "What went wrong?"
Congratulations you are now the sixth book in an adventure path.
You don't. The teleport stuff plan likely wouldn't work even if all the rules supported it. Martial characters don't get tired out and it's not that expensive for AM to have some healing items for the little damage he would take.
Actually the real problem is that AM needs to become a drunkard. He can be ran out of rage, and when that happens he's hosed, as is Batty Bat.
He needs better saves and more rage and a mage to walk up and play by his rules.
IF the mage does the last and he can keep from using all his rage every day and someone doesn't come along with several DC 45+ spells to chuck at him, and he can establish a charge line, or get close enough to actually hit to sunder spells he's good.
Provided we don't fall back to his not a barbarian build, at which point things simply get silly.
The only thing I'm trying to show is that a wizard will still beat this build and beat it soundly.Here's a funny thing.
It doesn't really prove anything in terms of "Casty vs. Barbarian"
Let me explain. I can do everything you just stated with a sufficiently high enough level Expert or Aristocrat. The difference in these scenarios, to me at least, isn't finding out whether or not he'll kill you and make appropriate preparations. Rather it's about how exactly you kill him.
So how do you kill him? Or if you prefer "defeat" him?
To elaborate further you are basically saying you would take elaborate roleplaying measures to ensure you are aware of every notable character (particularly those out for your blood) within your realm. This is fine but it's working off the assumption that AM BARBARIAN is flying solo and not taking elaborate roleplaying measures to lead AM HORDE. Up until now AM BARBARIAN and the "stupid" wizards have been happy to stick to a generally one on one scenario. By bringing networks and contacts in you're falling into BBEG territory where you set up elaborate traps and ruses only to find yourself standing toe to toe with him on the roof of your astral fortress (also phylactery) where him and his four plucky friends some years later and wonder to yourself "What went wrong?"
Congratulations you are now the sixth book in an adventure path.
Great. And NOW I'm wondering if AM's followers are the ones passing him information on who is and isn't a casty.
Thanks, Tark. Thanks a lot.
You don't. The teleport stuff plan likely wouldn't work even if all the rules supported it. Martial characters don't get tired out and it's not that expensive for AM to have some healing items for the little damage he would take.Actually the real problem is that AM needs to become a drunkard. He can be ran out of rage, and when that happens he's hosed, as is Batty Bat.
He needs better saves and more rage and a mage to walk up and play by his rules.
IF the mage does the last and he can keep from using all his rage every day and someone doesn't come along with several DC 45+ spells to chuck at him, and he can establish a charge line, or get close enough to actually hit to sunder spells he's good.
Provided we don't fall back to his not a barbarian build, at which point things simply get silly.
I thought it was established yesterday that the DC 45+ spells is based on using Spell Perfection in a way that is not related to how Spell Perfection worked? Didn't post the thing 'cause I thought Jason answered it quite beautifully.
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You don't. The teleport stuff plan likely wouldn't work even if all the rules supported it. Martial characters don't get tired out and it's not that expensive for AM to have some healing items for the little damage he would take.Actually, there is a problem with this point.
#6. 'I teleport lots of stuff on top of him to tire him out.'
How, exactly? This has been an ongoing problem with the 'teleportation' thing and I'd like an answer to it. The closest we've hit on was burning a wish spell to do it (and bear in mind you're BURNING A WISH SPELL to do it) and even that was predicated on the theory that you can teleport to a condition and not a location.
How do you know where he is and teleport into a landmark in midair to get to him?
Isn't 'tire him out' actually meant to represent: "use up his rages for the day"?
It still seems pretty silly.
I am interested in how this thread is veering into insane-swerving-goalpost-setting with every other poster redfining the purpose of AM.
I've read both threads and, to be honest, can't really remember the original purpose of AM; I think it was something to do with disproving the idea that there is a complete caster/martial disparity.
I've read both threads and, to be honest, can't really remember the original purpose of AM; I think it was something to do with disproving the idea that there is a complete caster/martial disparity.
The original purpose of AM BARBARIAN is 'I'm bored. Here's this thread. I'm going to do nothing but type in it in allcaps and have a grand old time.'
Everything else is gravy.
I thought it was established yesterday that the DC 45+ spells is based on using Spell Perfection in a way that is not related to how Spell Perfection worked? Didn't post the thing 'cause I thought Jason answered it quite beautifully.
Problem is Jason answered but he doesn't have the actual answer -- remember he gave his opinion (one that just happens to work well for your position too), this has yet to actually be hashed out. However even if he is correct then we only solved a single method of getting DC's that high, not all methods for doing so, as I pointed out with the rage prophet (for one example, of which I believe there are at least 5~7 more).
While AM might not like that a casty can have barbarian levels and therefore qualify for rage prophet that doesn't mean such a casty doesn't exist.
At the point AM falls back to riding on a synthesist (by the way in order for that to work the synthesist needs to take the mount evolution) we becomes another BSF that must have a caster (or that's what his critics will claim), and isn't rightfully a barbarian anymore.
That's part of the problem -- AM has opened the field much too widely to honestly be able to defeat any and all casters, and the more doors he opens the more abuse the casters have at their fingers to use against him.
As to running him out of rage I'm thinking a conjurer might have the best means of doing that -- a greater metamagic rod of echoing and permanent summons could give the conjurer the means to keep enough casters coming at AM that he'll need to rage in order to continue to take them all on.
Personally I think the biggest problem that remains is AM's lack of omnipotence, omnipresentence and general lack of godliness.
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The question then becomes 'where does your character hang out between adventures?' I'm guessing the answer is magnificent mansion, right?
Magnificent mansion won't be much help either. It'd get spell sundered EVENTUALLY
No, it won't. You're assuming AM is working in a vacuum (the information kind), and so is the wizard. Neither of those is true. The wizard will find out about AM long before AM finds out about the wizard. How, you ask? Divination spells. Yeah, AM can have mind blank up...but then he's proven he needs a caster to prop him up. And he can't afford to have mind blank up long enough for 'eventually' to occur.
I thought it was established yesterday that the DC 45+ spells is based on using Spell Perfection in a way that is not related to how Spell Perfection worked? Didn't post the thing 'cause I thought Jason answered it quite beautifully.
The campaign I play in right now is an overpowered all casty campaign at level 30 where spell levels 10-18 exist and DC 45 is a fairly recent thing. It just doesn't happen at level 20 of normal rules and even then you need to make it persistent for it to be reliable against AM and even THEN he might pass the save.
If beating AM were as simple as having a high DC, a diviner would be the easy way to do it. Spidey sense goes off in surprise. Diviner goes first (auto 30+ initiative from foresight). Ready action to do a regular ole move action to get out of way of first thing that come say 60 ft close to you. Holy crap flying barbarian thing! Move out of way (charge path already set, charge ends where diviner was). First round, diviner uses a quicken metamagic gem to quicken a limited wish to recreate Ill Omen. Standard action, use persistent metamagic gem to cast dominate monster. AM now rolls 4 times, take worst result, against whatever absurdly high DC you somehow have...except that most likely your DC is about 31, maybe 33-35 with some pimping. So even rolling four times, AM has a good chance of beating it.
edit: What I meant by teleporting stuff not tiring out AM is he isn't forced to use rage. He probably saves his rages for castys.
If beating AM were as simple as having a high DC, a diviner would be the easy way to do it. Spidey sense goes off in surprise. Diviner goes first (auto 30+ initiative from foresight). Ready action to do a regular ole move action to get out of way of first thing that come say 60 ft close to you. Holy crap flying barbarian thing! Move out of way (charge path already set, charge ends where diviner was). First round, diviner uses a quicken metamagic gem to quicken a limited wish to recreate Ill Omen. Standard action, use persistent metamagic gem to cast dominate monster. AM now rolls 4 times, take worst result, against whatever absurdly high DC you somehow have...except that most likely your DC is about 31, maybe 33-35 with some pimping. So even rolling four times, AM has a good chance of beating it.
10+9+13+2=34 as the base starting 'maximum DC' before other books came out. Spell perfection would cause this to go up to 36 easily and greater eldritch heritage would put it at 38~40 depending on who gets to say if it is a set bonus based on a feat or not (which technically it is). Now that eats up 8 feats total which leaves 2 others for any caster and more for a wizard to find to up his DC more. Tenebrous spell for example is another new metamagic that ups the DC by one which combined with Focused spell gives a total of +4. Said spell would have to be seventh level or less so the actual increase would be a +2 which puts us at a 42 DC with reroll. Taking age again and then using the spells that completely gets rid of the limitations of doing such means that I can raise the DC based on casting stat by 1 so we have a 43.
Finally traveling only at night and having the Ebon Eyes spell blight means not only can I stick to the standard ring of invisibility mind blank shtick but I can do so and still see better than AM since he doesn't have low light or Darkvision.
Honestly I like AM -- but he's lacking, so fix him and then maybe get around to actually proving he exists. Because right now he's still just a Schrodinger's Barbarian.
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I thought it was established yesterday that the DC 45+ spells is based on using Spell Perfection in a way that is not related to how Spell Perfection worked? Didn't post the thing 'cause I thought Jason answered it quite beautifully.The campaign I play in right now is an overpowered all casty campaign at level 30 where spell levels 10-18 exist and DC 45 is a fairly recent thing. It just doesn't happen at level 20 of normal rules and even then you need to make it persistent for it to be reliable against AM and even THEN he might pass the save.
If beating AM were as simple as having a high DC, a diviner would be the easy way to do it. Spidey sense goes off in surprise. Diviner goes first (auto 30+ initiative from foresight). Ready action to do a regular ole move action to get out of way of first thing that come say 60 ft close to you. Holy crap flying barbarian thing! Move out of way (charge path already set, charge ends where diviner was). First round, diviner uses a quicken metamagic gem to quicken a limited wish to recreate Ill Omen. Standard action, use persistent metamagic gem to cast dominate monster. AM now rolls 4 times, take worst result, against whatever absurdly high DC you somehow have...except that most likely your DC is about 31, maybe 33-35 with some pimping. So even rolling four times, AM has a good chance of beating it.
edit: What I meant by teleporting stuff not tiring out AM is he isn't forced to use rage. He probably saves his rages for castys.
It'd be better to simply cast solid fog on the first thing to come within 300 feet. Charge over. Yes, he can sunder it...but not until the next round. And if he sunders it to get out, then he's taken a standard action. He's got a move left, and he's done for that round. The wizard uses another battlefield control spell to keep AM at a distance. At that point, the wizard is dictating the terms of the encounter, and AM is in big trouble, not the wizard.
If beating AM were as simple as having a high DC, a diviner would be the easy way to do it. Spidey sense goes off in surprise. Diviner goes first (auto 30+ initiative from foresight). Ready action to do a regular ole move action to get out of way of first thing that come say 60 ft close to you. Holy crap flying barbarian thing! Move out of way (charge path already set, charge ends where diviner was). First round, diviner uses a quicken metamagic gem to quicken a limited wish to recreate Ill Omen. Standard action, use persistent metamagic gem to cast dominate monster. AM now rolls 4 times, take worst result, against whatever absurdly high DC you somehow have...except that most likely your DC is about 31, maybe 33-35 with some pimping. So even rolling four times, AM has a good chance of beating it.10+9+13+2=34 as the base starting 'maximum DC' before other books came out. Spell perfection would cause this to go up to 36 easily and greater eldritch heritage would put it at 38~40 depending on who gets to say if it is a set bonus based on a feat or not (which technically it is). Now that eats up 8 feats total which leaves 2 others for any caster and more for a wizard to find to up his DC more. Tenebrous spell for example is another new metamagic that ups the DC by one which combined with Focused spell gives a total of +4. Said spell would have to be seventh level or less so the actual increase would be a +2 which puts us at a 42 DC with reroll. Taking age again and then using the spells that completely gets rid of the limitations of doing such means that I can raise the DC based on casting stat by 1 so we have a 43.
Finally traveling only at night and having the Ebon Eyes spell blight means not only can I stick to the standard ring of invisibility mind blank shtick but I can do so and still see better than AM since he doesn't have low light or Darkvision.
Honestly I like AM -- but he's lacking, so fix him and then maybe get around to actually proving he exists. Because right...
That settles it, Spalding. I like you. You break things, and in doing so it shows me what I have to break on my end to unbreak (doublebreak? 300-break-combo?) them.
It'd be better to simply cast solid fog on the first thing to come within 300 feet. Charge over. Yes, he can sunder it...but not until the next round. And if he sunders it to get out, then he's taken a standard action. He's got a move left, and he's done for that round. The wizard uses another battlefield control spell to keep AM at a distance. At that point, the wizard is dictating the terms of the encounter, and AM is in big trouble, not the wizard.I thought it was established yesterday that the DC 45+ spells is based on using Spell Perfection in a way that is not related to how Spell Perfection worked? Didn't post the thing 'cause I thought Jason answered it quite beautifully.The campaign I play in right now is an overpowered all casty campaign at level 30 where spell levels 10-18 exist and DC 45 is a fairly recent thing. It just doesn't happen at level 20 of normal rules and even then you need to make it persistent for it to be reliable against AM and even THEN he might pass the save.
If beating AM were as simple as having a high DC, a diviner would be the easy way to do it. Spidey sense goes off in surprise. Diviner goes first (auto 30+ initiative from foresight). Ready action to do a regular ole move action to get out of way of first thing that come say 60 ft close to you. Holy crap flying barbarian thing! Move out of way (charge path already set, charge ends where diviner was). First round, diviner uses a quicken metamagic gem to quicken a limited wish to recreate Ill Omen. Standard action, use persistent metamagic gem to cast dominate monster. AM now rolls 4 times, take worst result, against whatever absurdly high DC you somehow have...except that most likely your DC is about 31, maybe 33-35 with some pimping. So even rolling four times, AM has a good chance of beating it.
edit: What I meant by teleporting stuff not tiring out AM is he isn't forced to use rage. He probably saves his rages for castys.
That wouldn't actually interrupt the charge once he hit the point where he could declare it. You only need LoS to declare a charge, once he knows where he's going all the fog in the world won't stop him. Even solid fog wouldn't, due to Dragon Style. A readied wall would be the proper spell to go with.
Hey I aim to please shoot to kill.
Again AM isn't a bad idea -- I've always felt there was a bit too much assumed by the casty side of the argument, and AM is a fun way to show that, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how he handles things.
The biggest technical issue I'm seeing that will get him laughed at is the Permanent Arcane Eye set up which is completely reliant on having a caster to get the scrolls. For wondrous items and magical arms and armor he can fall back on the, "I got a non-casty to make them" or possibly, "I made them myself" (but I'm doubting that one) -- there is no such work around for scrolls which means he's really stuck on caster help in some form to get his permanency and arcane eye scrolls.
THAT will be the biggest exposure to ridicule of the build that I can see for the 'pro-casty' side.
A readied wall would be the proper spell to go with.
If you go with a spell. Moving out of the way just seems cooler (and more efficient!).
AM could be impossible to find with divination spells if he were to make home on a dead magic plane. But this whole exercise has gotten pretty elaborate we are now talking about how characters of epic level are stacking the campaign in their favour.
Once we get to the point where both parties are expecting hostility it's more a matter of who is more creative than who is more powerful. And as far as AM UMD'ing spells goes it's an option available to all characters making effective use of your options doesn't make a class weak every effective character is item dependant.
I would suggest AM beat casty's unconscious then apply negative levels until cloning won't work.
Just let me restate something more clearly if AM can't use anything casty made then cast shouldn't get access to anything mundane or use of anything requiring an attack roll.
Some casty's might die from starvation at lower levels but it's a small price to pay for mystical purity.
AM could be impossible to find with divination spells if he were to make home on a dead magic plane. But this whole exercise has gotten pretty elaborate we are now talking about how characters of epic level are stacking the campaign in their favour.
Once we get to the point where both parties are expecting hostility it's more a matter of who is more creative than who is more powerful. And as far as AM UMD'ing spells goes it's an option available to all characters making effective use of your options doesn't make a class weak every effective character is item dependant.
I would suggest AM beat casty's unconscious then apply negative levels until cloning won't work.
...are you seriously, SERIOUSLY suggesting a Merciful Observed State?
Actually this then got me to consider something else.
HEY GUYS. QUICK POLL.
If you were a human, and then got PaO'd into a half-orc, would you then qualify for orc-based feats? If so, would they remain if you ended up a human again?
...are you seriously, SERIOUSLY suggesting a Merciful Observed State?
Actually this then got me to consider something else.
HEY GUYS. QUICK POLL.
If you were a human, and then got PaO'd into a half-orc, would you then qualify for orc-based feats? If so, would they remain if you ended up a human again?
No polymorph doesn't change type or subtype. If it did you would keep the feats but they wouldn't work until you again have the correct subtype.
The racial heritage feat however would work.
...are you seriously, SERIOUSLY suggesting a Merciful Observed State?
Actually this then got me to consider something else.
HEY GUYS. QUICK POLL.
If you were a human, and then got PaO'd into a half-orc, would you then qualify for orc-based feats? If so, would they remain if you ended up a human again?
No polymorph doesn't change type or subtype. If it did you would keep the feats but they wouldn't work until you again have the correct subtype.
The racial heritage feat however would work.
MAN, now I have to go back to the drawing board for feats.
Unlimited rage rounds FOREVER seems worth 2 feat slots.
Just let me restate something more clearly if AM can't use anything casty made then cast shouldn't get access to anything mundane or use of anything requiring an attack roll.
Some casty's might die from starvation at lower levels but it's a small price to pay for mystical purity.
This is a logical Fallacy -- just because AM chooses to limit himself and apply for the MvC Olympics doesn't mean the casters are similarly limited.
He said any and all not those I hand picked out with them obeying my rules and limitations.
Either all or nothing.
Is AM immune to fear?
There's a huge difference between "I can set up a network because this is what my spell tactics do," and, "I have a horde of people". Not seeing the part where you make his position any less valid. Looks more like "I wanna play tit-for-tat because I can't think of any other way to attack the issue"... AM LOGIC FALLACY. Likewise, if AM ever has to recruit a caster, he's failed. Needing a caster to beat a caster accomplishes nothing.
AM himself is already a BBEG candidate; a somehow omniscient (already BBEG material from this alone) barbarian who slaughters all casters? Doesn't the average adventuring party have casters? Some do, I'm sure. He'd easily be interfering with other adventuring parties (rather often, at that.) So why is this suddenly now a factor that prevents legitimacy?
Please don't make AM look weaker but taking up many illogical defenses for him. He's too badass for that.
Well he's already recruited a synthesist in at least one iteration of him. So in that sense he has already failed.
And the point is about escalation. Much of what Maddigan is accomplishing doesn't need magic. Sometimes all it takes is time and allies. Things that 20 levels of adventuring can do without the need of caster levels. And it is all based upon the idea that AM BARBARIAN always takes the absolute direct approach. He can choose not to do that and instead take apart the army bit by bit.
Also, no AM BARBARIAN is not omniscient he is however very presumptuous he assumes a lot about casters and part of the reason why Abraham's idea appeals to me is because it removes the presumptions entirely and allows the wizard to function without fear of AM BARBARIAN ever coming near him. Whether or not he kills him is a different matter.
As for adventuring parties? Well none of the wizards proposed have mentioned traveling with a group (except maddigan who has "minions"). Perhaps that's an option they should be considering? But then they'd be traveling with martials wouldn't they? ;)
Best post of the whole thread, right here.The original purpose of AM BARBARIAN is 'I'm bored. Here's this thread. I'm going to do nothing but type in it in allcaps and have a grand old time.'
Everything else is gravy.
I was more a fan of the one where AM got to go on a friendship speech against the C-MD God and then declare the entire thread the winner.
Judging by favorites, it was well-received as well.
Is AM immune to fear?
Only in a metaphorical sense, mechanically the answer is 'I don't know yet, assume no for the moment.'
...are you seriously, SERIOUSLY suggesting a Merciful Observed State?
Actually this then got me to consider something else.
HEY GUYS. QUICK POLL.
If you were a human, and then got PaO'd into a half-orc, would you then qualify for orc-based feats? If so, would they remain if you ended up a human again?
No polymorph doesn't change type or subtype. If it did you would keep the feats but they wouldn't work until you again have the correct subtype.
The racial heritage feat however would work.
MAN, now I have to go back to the drawing board for feats.
Unlimited rage rounds FOREVER seems worth 2 feat slots.
Yeah it really is going to be needed, as the martials biggest 'thing' is the 'I can do this all day and weather through all your spells until things are just right for me to use my one super tactic.'
As for adventuring parties? Well none of the wizards proposed have mentioned traveling with a group (except maddigan who has "minions"). Perhaps that's an option they should be considering? But then they'd be traveling with martials wouldn't they?
Hey I'm good with traveling with martials -- they've got their place and it's one I value... between me and the things with sharp pointy bits.
I got my place -- it's telling reality to shut up so the martials can stay between me and the things with sharp pointy bits... and getting it on with whatever female strikes my fancy at the time... and enjoying fourteen different senses that martials don't even know about... and having a nice strawberry daiquiri while travelling through the artic secure in the knowledge that I'm safe and warm.
Besides martials have some interesting conversations. I know a few who's combat styles are at least as complex as the movements needed for casting lower level spells (including the very evil monk that rapes things to death with his 'unarmed strikes').
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Yeah it really is going to be needed, as the martials biggest 'thing' is the 'I can do this all day and weather through all your spells until things are just right for me to use my one super tactic.'
...whic would be an autowin, and awesome. But I don't think anyone could pull it off. Too many chances to roll a 1, too many ways to defeat any build.