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Of course, the GM could always just throw an old fashioned dungeon crawl, where AM isn't able to ride BATTY BAT, which to the best of my understanding of the character, makes him a much more sane/manageable character.In practice your GM would probably murder you if you put this guy in his campaign.
Not your character, you.
His response is 'figure out the load-bearing points of the dungeon, sunder them, collapse the whole thing and mop up whatever's left.'
Dude's an engineer.
Maybe for small or even medium dungeons, but that's not a viable solution for a megadungeon. I can defeat AM...with Rappan Athuk. Or a Pathfinderized version of Zork. Or other, similar, megadungeon-styled adventures.
AM BARBARIAN is likely to be eaten by a grue.
That's more-or-less because the only really debatable point of AM's build is whether he can leave and re-enter rage multiple times in a round. Since you can load multiple arrows, or multiple crossbow bolts with Rapid Reload, one would tend to believe that he can.I don't know how much attention you paid to the CMD thread, but just like this thread, most of the debate involves how spells work, very little debate is ever about AmBarb's build.
so in summation yes he is exactly like Schroedinger's Wizard -- meaning neither actually exist.You'll notice that Trinam has already admitted as much himself when he responded to me.
Show me the build, and you might have a convert but just as I told the Scientologist I'm not changing religions or sending money until I see some results first.
Well then he shares another trait with the Theoretical wizard now doesn't he? "So awesome he doesn't need statted out."
If he is straight barbarian then he doesn't have the fighter levels to do ranged sunder so he is not in fact barbarian, he is at most 2/3 barbarian.
All and all I maintain that he looks exactly like a wizard I've never seen but heard a lot about.
My Little Pony's a third-party source. So it's right out. :)According to My Little Pony, friendship is magic, so he could.
The only thing is, we'd have to determine the caster level of friendship.
Then why does BATTY BAT have a cutie mark?
According to My Little Pony, friendship is magic, so he could.
The only thing is, we'd have to determine the caster level of friendship.
This is why my diviner doesn't have any magic friendships. His relationships are built on having good chemistry, a science engineers tend not to be too good at.
Maybe for small or even medium dungeons, but that's not a viable solution for a megadungeon. I can defeat AM...with Rappan Athuk. Or a Pathfinderized version of Zork. Or other, similar, megadungeon-styled adventures.
AM BARBARIAN is likely to be eaten by a grue.
It's still viable, you just have to section it off and implode parts of the dungeon at a time. Like a real engineering project, it would take time and a port-o-potty just outside the blast range.
...what's the gp cost on a port-o-potty?
@ Abraham
Most theoretical wizards have 6 levels of fighter? or do most wizards pick up rapid reload?
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All and all I maintain that he looks exactly like a wizard I've never seen but heard a lot about.
AND THEREFORE AM NO MORE CASTY-MARTIAL DESTRUCITY, BECAUSE CASTY AND MARTIAL AM IN SAME REGION OF EXISTENCE.
ARGUMENT AM OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER.
EDIT: AND WHEN DID BARBARIAN TAKE RAPID RELOAD AGAIN? BARBARIAN AM CONFUSED.
AM OK THOUGH, BARBARIAN ACT NORMALLY THIS TURN.
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Then why does BATTY BAT have a cutie mark?My Little Pony's a third-party source. So it's right out. :)According to My Little Pony, friendship is magic, so he could.
The only thing is, we'd have to determine the caster level of friendship.
It's not actually a cutie mark. It's a (REDACTED SO AM WON'T FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO HIM UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE).
It's not actually a cutie mark. It's a (REDACTED SO AM WON'T FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO HIM UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE).Then why does BATTY BAT have a cutie mark?My Little Pony's a third-party source. So it's right out. :)According to My Little Pony, friendship is magic, so he could.
The only thing is, we'd have to determine the caster level of friendship.
Oh, I already know about [redacted]. It won't work.
@ Abraham
Most theoretical wizards have 6 levels of fighter? or do most wizards pick up rapid reload?
And this has what to do with anything?
Either he's a barbarian or he's a bunch of stuff thrown together -- so far the only thing close to an actual build I've seen is a thrown together list of classes that go from barbarian, to oracle, to fighter to rage prophet. So hooray for a mix of classes -- but that's not a barbarian any more.
Besides again looks just like a casty to me and is getting defended just as such which is absolutely funny as all get out.
If it's so easy or even possible put it up and prove your point.
Otherwise you got nothing, and he's just as 'observed' as the highly touted 'god wizard who's prepared for everything.'
Like I said just like a certain wizard I've never seen but heard so much about.
Of course, the GM could always just throw an old fashioned dungeon crawl, where AM isn't able to ride BATTY BAT, which to the best of my understanding of the character, makes him a much more sane/manageable character.In practice your GM would probably murder you if you put this guy in his campaign.
Not your character, you.
His response is 'figure out the load-bearing points of the dungeon, sunder them, collapse the whole thing and mop up whatever's left.'
Dude's an engineer.
Maybe for small or even medium dungeons, but that's not a viable solution for a megadungeon. I can defeat AM...with Rappan Athuk. Or a Pathfinderized version of Zork. Or other, similar, megadungeon-styled adventures.
AM BARBARIAN is likely to be eaten by a grue.
AM BARBARIAN is what eat grues when they sleep in the wrong location.
@ Abraham
Most theoretical wizards have 6 levels of fighter? or do most wizards pick up rapid reload?
And this has what to do with anything?
Either he's a barbarian or he's a bunch of stuff thrown together -- so far the only thing close to an actual build I've seen is a thrown together list of classes that go from barbarian, to oracle, to fighter to rage prophet. So hooray for a mix of classes -- but that's not a barbarian any more.
Besides again looks just like a casty to me and is getting defended just as such which is absolutely funny as all get out.
If it's so easy or even possible put it up and prove your point.
Otherwise you got nothing, and he's just as 'observed' as the highly touted 'god wizard who's prepared for everything.'
From what I have of the build, AM himself is Barbarian 20. I've also, as I said, figured out Rage Powers and Feat selection. The thing is, my current to-do list is as follows:
1) Barbarian Guide (Because it's been like six months by now I think, god why am I so slow?)
2) Gearing AM BARBARIAN.
There are some things I know I want, and some things I'll probably want later. Once I post the build, even then it's not going to be 'final' because AM is as much an experiment by me to see how far I can push a martial character as it is a counter-argument to the Schrodinger's casty.
My goal here is martial absurdity, and I can't do that alone. Believe it or not, I need castys to yell at me of how they'd totally kill AM so I can dissect it and get excellent countermeasures together.
Which reminds me: Thanks castys. Love ya'll.
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Maybe for small or even medium dungeons, but that's not a viable solution for a megadungeon. I can defeat AM...with Rappan Athuk. Or a Pathfinderized version of Zork. Or other, similar, megadungeon-styled adventures.
AM BARBARIAN is likely to be eaten by a grue.
It's still viable, you just have to section it off and implode parts of the dungeon at a time. Like a real engineering project, it would take time and a port-o-potty just outside the blast range.
...what's the gp cost on a port-o-potty?
Ah, but while you're going around sundering walls while hundreds of feet below ground, you're also NOT on BATTY BAT...and making enough noise to attrack the attention of any monsters in the vicinity. Now, AM is pretty tough, but I really doubt his ability to deal with Orcus.
Or a grue, assuming it's dark.
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Oh, I already know about [redacted]. It won't work.It's not actually a cutie mark. It's a (REDACTED SO AM WON'T FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO HIM UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE).Then why does BATTY BAT have a cutie mark?My Little Pony's a third-party source. So it's right out. :)According to My Little Pony, friendship is magic, so he could.
The only thing is, we'd have to determine the caster level of friendship.
Nah, you're thinking about [redacted] rev 3.2. We're already up to [redacted] 13.2.7. WE don't even know what we're doing; how could you?
@ Abraham
Most theoretical wizards have 6 levels of fighter? or do most wizards pick up rapid reload?
And this has what to do with anything?
Either he's a barbarian or he's a bunch of stuff thrown together -- so far the only thing close to an actual build I've seen is a thrown together list of classes that go from barbarian, to oracle, to fighter to rage prophet. So hooray for a mix of classes -- but that's not a barbarian any more.
Besides again looks just like a casty to me and is getting defended just as such which is absolutely funny as all get out.
If it's so easy or even possible put it up and prove your point.
Otherwise you got nothing, and he's just as 'observed' as the highly touted 'god wizard who's prepared for everything.'
Like I said just like a certain wizard I've never seen but heard so much about.
The build is coming into existence and in part this is a discussion on what all needs to or should go into the build.
Many of the points being discussed are things that are in fact things established hundreds of posts ago as going into the build.
Is much of it theorhetical? Well, yes. Much of high level optimization is in fact theory that never gets played out on the table. Thank god.
In a sense AM BABARIAN is "more real" by dint of having things established on him. He is still and always has been Barbarian 20. The other things being tossed out are stray thoughts or discussions on AM BARBARIAN's mount or clarification on whether or not things work one way or another. There is in fact a notebook (unless Trinam is a dirty dirty liar) with a character forming in it. By this point in fact there has been more evidence to AM BARBARIAN's existence than schroedinger's wizard which, you'll note, has only been discussed, never made.
A lack of a sheet does not preclude the notion of speaking about him anymore than it does any other character that is in the making. Which is one of the reasons for the existence of the advice forums. Discussing characters that don't exist yet.
I have to ask, what does AM BARBARIAN do with all the Headbands of vast whatever that he gets from all the castys he kills? Its the one accessory that every Schrodinger's casty has. Does he have a necklace of headbands to show his power? Does he own and operate AM BARBARIANS HOUSE OF BLOODY AND DENTED ARCANE HEADWEAR? Does he use it to accentuate his engineering degree?
If AM BARBARIAN trys them on then it may be possible to erode him by layering cursed gear on him by tricking him to kill casty clones carrying cursed Lances of RagePounce.
As far as I am concerned If I had to fight AM BARBARIAN I would use misdirection and distraction for as long as possible and Trojan horsing him down to size might work.
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I have to ask, what does AM BARBARIAN do with all the Headbands of vast whatever that he gets from all the castys he kills?
100 ft. silk rope* of mental superiority?
*: Knotted!
OOOH maybe its like Game of Thrones where he has a throne made of half melted arcane headgear. Honestly mind enhancing stuff makes more sense than swords for a ruler's chair.
His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.
I have to ask, what does AM BARBARIAN do with all the Headbands of vast whatever that he gets from all the castys he kills? Its the one accessory that every Schrodinger's casty has. Does he have a necklace of headbands to show his power? Does he own and operate AM BARBARIANS HOUSE OF BLOODY AND DENTED ARCANE HEADWEAR? Does he use it to accentuate his engineering degree?
If AM BARBARIAN trys them on then it may be possible to erode him by layering cursed gear on him by tricking him to kill casty clones carrying cursed Lances of RagePounce.
As far as I am concerned If I had to fight AM BARBARIAN I would use misdirection and distraction for as long as possible and Trojan horsing him down to size might work.
He sells them to buy more Lesser Restoration potions and Allnight.
Your average casty has about 500k in actual treasure, this comes to ~250k profit. That's a lot of Lesser Restoration potions and Allnight.
1) Barbarian Guide (Because it's been like six months by now I think, god why am I so slow?)
Question about the guide. How are you going to approach the anti-caster barbarian build without basically saying to build AM whom you've said should never be played in a real game? Or would it be OK to play AM as long as you don't take leadership and maybe skip out on permanent arcane sight or polymorphed horses?
His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.
Short of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.
If the alpha strike occurs, it's game over.
If it is a diviner, then he can't charge, which means... I don't actually know yet.
Somehow this 1st level spell has escaped EVERYONE's notice thus far. Thank you, Mr. Spalding.
1) Barbarian Guide (Because it's been like six months by now I think, god why am I so slow?)Question about the guide. How are you going to approach the anti-caster barbarian build without basically saying to build AM whom you've said should never be played in a real game? Or would it be OK to play AM as long as you don't take leadership and maybe skip out on permanent arcane sight or polymorphed horses?
I'm just going to be showing the most optimized options for barbarians. Piecing them together into anticasty builds is for the player who wants to make one.
His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.Short of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.
If the alpha strike occurs, it's game over.
If it is a diviner, then he can't charge, which means... I don't actually know yet.
Somehow this 1st level spell has escaped EVERYONE's notice thus far. Thank you, Mr. Spalding.
Just run into the mist baty bat has blind sense. You can charge him next turn. This does give the caster one turn if they win initiate, but they will have a hard time hitting you in the mist as well. They might manage to summon something.
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I have to ask, what does AM BARBARIAN do with all the Headbands of vast whatever that he gets from all the castys he kills? Its the one accessory that every Schrodinger's casty has. Does he have a necklace of headbands to show his power? Does he own and operate AM BARBARIANS HOUSE OF BLOODY AND DENTED ARCANE HEADWEAR? Does he use it to accentuate his engineering degree?
If AM BARBARIAN trys them on then it may be possible to erode him by layering cursed gear on him by tricking him to kill casty clones carrying cursed Lances of RagePounce.
As far as I am concerned If I had to fight AM BARBARIAN I would use misdirection and distraction for as long as possible and Trojan horsing him down to size might work.
He sells them to buy more Lesser Restoration potions and Allnight.
Your average casty has about 500k in actual treasure, this comes to ~250k profit. That's a lot of Lesser Restoration potions and Allnight.
He's also going to have to invest in a minion to fly up, match speeds, and swap loot for potions...which gives the caster another avenue of attack. No, two other avenues - cursed potions. :)
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Short of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.
There are other ways. The caster can be invisible, with ranks in stealth and perception (and item bonuses to both), which brings the encounter range down to where the caster is likely to see AM before AM sees the caster. And any caster can do that, not just the diviner. So AM needs a ring of invisibility and spell turning, which is gonna cost him an extra what, 30k (I'm assuming AM has both features built into one ring, so he can have another ring)? And then they'd never find each other. :D
There are other ways. The caster can be invisible, with ranks in stealth and perception (and item bonuses to both), which brings the encounter range down to where the caster is likely to see AM before AM sees the caster. And any caster can do that, not just the diviner. So AM needs a ring of invisibility and spell turning, which is gonna cost him an extra what, 30k (I'm assuming AM has both features built into one ring, so he can have another ring)? And then they'd never find each other. :DShort of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.
You know, until just this moment I never considered for a second the possibility of combining items on AM.
...This may be worthwhile.
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His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.Short of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.
If the alpha strike occurs, it's game over.
If it is a diviner, then he can't charge, which means... I don't actually know yet.
Somehow this 1st level spell has escaped EVERYONE's notice thus far. Thank you, Mr. Spalding.
No problem:
From the charge rules:
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
Now obscuring mist is an easy "oh crap something might happen spell" especially at 20th level, but there are other ways to keep a cloud around you at all times. If your mount has blindsight sure it can charge... unfortunately that does nothing for you on top of the mount.
However a ring of invisibility and a daily mind blank means you will never be able to charge on the first round.
Another issue that could come up along the same lines is lighting -- if you are going human (and I think you are) then there are means of preventing you from seeing due to lighting conditions, and none of this gets you pass someone like a conjure having a permanent summons up just to keep himself surrounded by creatures to block a charge line.
Now beyond these points flying is all well and good, but a smarter mage earthglides instead (that is when he doesn't simply teleport): This will be especially problematic for when you face druids.
Finally none of this covers the other huge issues you'll face -- clone, Simulacrum, and most importantly seeing and identifying magic. Now plenty of spells you'll know what to sunder but there are just as many where you won't know what's up and what's going on unless you have some means of seeing magic and identifying what it is. Unfortunately (and this applies to spell casters a lot of times too) even detect magic or permanent arcane eyes isn't enough for this, and you really need to know what you need to sunder first in order to have a good chance at the mage.
Other than that all you need to worry about is the mage with regeneration and the deathless mastery line of feats, because if you think dealing with a mage that dies is tough try dealing with one that doesn't die no matter how low you knock his hp and is still capable of taking full actions the entire time.
trinam, I don't think custom items is as worthwhile as you think. It's further into the realms of GM fiat than anything posted in these threads. But if you do, be sure to get a continuous true strike item and ditch the scarab for a continuous death ward. The scarab's SR wasn't enough to help anyway. I'm sure we could all cook up many more broken items, but that's why it isn't worthwhile :P
trinam, I don't think custom items is as worthwhile as you think. It's further into the realms of GM fiat than anything posted in these threads. But if you do, be sure to get a continuous true strike item and ditch the scarab for a continuous death ward. The scarab's SR wasn't enough to help anyway. I'm sure we could all cook up many more broken items, but that's why it isn't worthwhile :P
How is combining effects on one item GM fiat? There are already 4 items in the Core Rulebook that do this... the Belts of Physical Might and Physical Perfection, and the Headbands of Mental Prowess and Mental Superiority.
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There are other ways. The caster can be invisible, with ranks in stealth and perception (and item bonuses to both), which brings the encounter range down to where the caster is likely to see AM before AM sees the caster. And any caster can do that, not just the diviner. So AM needs a ring of invisibility and spell turning, which is gonna cost him an extra what, 30k (I'm assuming AM has both features built into one ring, so he can have another ring)? And then they'd never find each other. :DShort of a diviner, it's going to be hard to get an obscuring mist off prior to the alpha strike occuring.His chief concerns should be:
Line of sight -- can't charge without it, a level 1 spell will completely stop this build from getting a one round kill (obscuring mist).
Disjunction -- losing all that gear is going to hurt.You know, until just this moment I never considered for a second the possibility of combining items on AM.
...This may be worthwhile.
Now I have this impression of a vast army of casters, slaving away to keep AM flying.
...nah, it'd never work.
Food for thought
Aha! Now this is exactly the stuff I need to consider in gearing. I knew I liked you for a reason. Any other things that you can think of off the top of your head?
Now might be a good time to remind you of the fog-cutting goggles from Pathfinder #4.
Now might be a good time to remind you of the fog-cutting goggles from Pathfinder #4.
It would.
How is combining effects on one item GM fiat? There are already 4 items in the Core Rulebook that do this... the Belts of Physical Might and Physical Perfection, and the Headbands of Mental Prowess and Mental Superiority.
And those items were designed by Paizo to be standard. Any other combinations are not standard and are up to your GM whether or not they are available.
In fact, even using the Settlement rules from the GM guide combined with the core rules for magic item availability, without a crafter in the party or an NPC crafter you meet and pay to make stuff for you, there's little chance a 20th level character would actually have exactly what gear he'd like to have without the GM specifically taking a wishlist and populating treasure piles with it.
Now might be a good time to remind you of the fog-cutting goggles from Pathfinder #4.It would.
Those goggles would help, but what about a silent image of a wall between AM and caster? I don't know all items/abilities, so maybe there is a way to not see illusions, but my understanding is even if you know something is an illusion it still looks like it is there and breaks line of sight.
Food for thoughtAha! Now this is exactly the stuff I need to consider in gearing. I knew I liked you for a reason. Any other things that you can think of off the top of your head?
Yup a big one: You said +31 on your will save? You need to get that much higher.
Going with just oracle levels I've hit a color spray that is possibly as high as 50 and that's with a charisma of 41.
This required a gnome, Spell perfection, heighten spell and focused spell spell focus and the eldritch heritage feats, but the oracle has just enough to get everything in.
Now this depends entirely on if you consider heighten spell a set bonus -- I think most people won't but without that the DC is still a whopping 43 which isn't going to be free and clear territory for AM, and in both cases this is before he uses persistent spell on it with a metamagic rod.
Now granted AM can reroll once a day... the problem though is the fact that the oracle then simply quickens another one which he hits AM with again immediately. Even with we go with the lower DC having to do it twice and reroll to take the worst save each time is probably going to drop his weapons and be stunned for a round, and batty is likely to have similiar problems.
Batty's saves need to be at least as high as AM's -- he's the weaker link in your combination that is going to need some significant protection.
Those goggles would help, but what about a silent image of a wall between AM and caster? I don't know all items/abilities, so maybe there is a way to not see illusions, but my understanding is even if you know something is an illusion it still looks like it is there and breaks line of sight.Now might be a good time to remind you of the fog-cutting goggles from Pathfinder #4.It would.
No if he makes his save he can see through it the problem is he doesn't get a save until he messes with it so it's going to ruin the first round charge anyways.
I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
If your mount has blindsight sure it can charge...Remember that blindsight has a limited range; outside that, the charge isn't going to happen. What can AM do to increase the blindsight range?
Not much -- the biggest issue is that AM needs his own source of blindsight. Typically if I'm flying when a caster I rely on both an actual cloud and an illusion of a cloud and possibly invisibility if I have a means to afford it.
Oh some other general thoughts:
Empyreal bloodline, Sohei monk eldritch knights might be a huge concern -- their CMD is likely to be quite impressive as is just about everything else about them (including AC). Though this only comes up after we clear the single class combinations.
If your mount has blindsight sure it can charge...Remember that blindsight has a limited range; outside that, the charge isn't going to happen. What can AM do to increase the blindsight range?Not much -- the biggest issue is that AM needs his own source of blindsight. Typically if I'm flying when a caster I rely on both an actual cloud and an illusion of a cloud and possibly invisibility if I have a means to afford it.
Oh some other general thoughts:
Empyreal bloodline, Sohei monk eldritch knights might be a huge concern -- their CMD is likely to be quite impressive as is just about everything else about them (including AC). Though this only comes up after we clear the single class combinations.
That isn't a full caster so AM BARBARIAN would be friendly with him.
Food for thoughtAha! Now this is exactly the stuff I need to consider in gearing. I knew I liked you for a reason. Any other things that you can think of off the top of your head?Yup a big one: You said +31 on your will save? You need to get that much higher.
Going with just oracle levels I've hit a color spray that is possibly as high as 50 and that's with a charisma of 41.
This required a gnome, Spell perfection, heighten spell and focused spell spell focus and the eldritch heritage feats, but the oracle has just enough to get everything in.
Now this depends entirely on if you consider heighten spell a set bonus -- I think most people won't but without that the DC is still a whopping 43 which isn't going to be free and clear territory for AM, and in both cases this is before he uses persistent spell on it with a metamagic rod.
Now granted AM can reroll once a day... the problem though is the fact that the oracle then simply quickens another one which he hits AM with again immediately. Even with we go with the lower DC having to do it twice and reroll to take the worst save each time is probably going to drop his weapons and be stunned for a round, and batty is likely to have similiar problems.
Batty's saves need to be at least as high as AM's -- he's the weaker link in your combination that is going to need some significant protection.
The problem for this build would be 'surviving the alpha strike.' I also can't quite follow where the 50 comes from.
And the BAT has comparable saves, I did think of that.
I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
1d20+20+15
Thats AM MYSTIC THEURGE's plan.
Thats AM MYSTIC THEURGE's plan.I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
1d20+20+15
Ah, but his caster level isn't good enough to craft the really good stuff.
I think, truth be told I have no idea how crafting actually works, I don't play usually play casty...
The problem for this build would be 'surviving the alpha strike.' I also can't quite follow where the 50 comes from.
And the BAT has comparable saves, I did think of that.
Traveling undercover of the ring of course -- so far it's the one part AM hasn't really been able to get around.
DC:
10 (base)
+15 (charisma of 41) -- total 25
+1 racial
+1 spell focus
+1 greater spell focus
+2 focused spell metamagic -- total 30
+2 greater eldritch bloodline(arcane)
+7 heighten spell -- total 39
+7 Spell perfection for heighten spell -- IF you count it as a set bonus (this would be the biggest stretch in the entire build). -- total 46
+1 spell perfection spell focus -- total 47
+1 spell perfection greater spell focus -- total 48
+2 spell perfection focused spell -- this is specifically a set bonus so gets doubled. -- total 50
+2 spell perfection greater eldritch bloodline(arcane) -- This is the second biggest stretch in the build as there is much debate if greater eldritch focus should be increased by spell perfection even though it is a feat that gives a set bonus to the spell. -- total 52
IF we discount the spell perfection for heighten spell and for the greater eldritch bloodline we have a DC of 43.
I may or may not have missed important parts as I don't have an actual build just a psuedo set up of what is possible.
Another big part of controversy would be how spell perfection stacks with other metamagic feats on the spell and in what order -- technically nothing applied by spell perfection affects the spell level and if it is applied before other metamagic feats you could use it to apply heighten spell to maximum effect and then apply whatever other metamagic you want to the spell.
While I fully agree this is extremely cheap it is also how most people I've seen use the feat do so in practice, and in this case it only stands out because it's being used for heighten spell specifically.
Thats AM MYSTIC THEURGE's plan.I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
1d20+20+15Ah, but his caster level isn't good enough to craft the really good stuff.
I think, truth be told I have no idea how crafting actually works, I don't play usually play casty...
AM MYSTIC THEURGE has a Magical Knack and an Ioun stone that boosts caster level, one of his two casty classes is = to his level. And Crafting is very Spellcraft dependent, its possible to overcome allot with high spellcraft.
The problem for this build would be 'surviving the alpha strike.' I also can't quite follow where the 50 comes from.
And the BAT has comparable saves, I did think of that.
Traveling undercover of the ring of course -- so far it's the one part AM hasn't really been able to get around.
DC:
10 (base)
+15 (charisma of 41) -- total 25
+1 racial
+1 spell focus
+1 greater spell focus
+2 focused spell metamagic -- total 30
+2 greater eldritch bloodline(arcane)
+7 heighten spell -- total 39
+7 Spell perfection for heighten spell -- IF you count it as a set bonus (this would be the biggest stretch in the entire build). -- total 46
+1 spell perfection spell focus -- total 47
+1 spell perfection greater spell focus -- total 48
+2 spell perfection focused spell -- this is specifically a set bonus so gets doubled. -- total 50
+2 spell perfection greater eldritch bloodline(arcane) -- This is the second biggest stretch in the build as there is much debate if greater eldritch focus should be increased by spell perfection even though it is a feat that gives a set bonus to the spell. -- total 52IF we discount the spell perfection for heighten spell and for the greater eldritch bloodline we have a DC of 43.
I may or may not have missed important parts as I don't have an actual build just a psuedo set up of what is possible.
Another big part of controversy would be how spell perfection stacks with other metamagic feats on the spell and in what order -- technically nothing applied by spell perfection affects the spell level and if it is applied before other metamagic feats you could use it to apply heighten spell to maximum effect and then apply whatever other metamagic you want to the spell.
While I fully agree this is extremely cheap it is also how most people I've seen use the feat do so in practice, and in this case it only stands out because it's being used for heighten spell specifically.
MATH!
Moving on. I note that you're triple spell perfecting one spell. IIRC, the feat only lets you add one metamagic to the spell.
Secondly, heighten to make a spell 9th only works once. Your perfection would make a 16th level spell, which makes its own problems.
There might be more, but I lack books atm.
EDIT: Disregard that, I forgot half the feat. Interesting. It's seeming increasingly like high end PF optimization isn't about damage or initiative, but perception. :D
41 cha... 20+5+5+6... Where's the other 5 from?
From the PFS Field Guide:
The Guardian magical quality can up them saves a bit more (if you've got the cash to stick it on Observed State.
A guardian weapon infuses its wielder with protective wards and great resistance to danger, allowing the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon’s enhancement bonus to his saving throws as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus on all saving throws lasts until his next turn. The weapon must be wielded in order for this bonus to apply—it does not function while the weapon is sheathed or otherwise stowed.
....My God. I just realized how broken this is.
...allowing the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon’s enhancement bonus to his saving throws as a bonus that stacks with all others...
Ok, so. Find as many ways to get weapon slots. Amulet of Mighty Fists? Brass Knuckles? Armor Spikes?