AM is smart enough to realize that being stupid has its advantages. ;P
Honestly, the exercise's original point was 'I'm going to talk in allcaps about how awesome Barbarians are and prove that Castys cannot easily deal with them.'
30+ pages of this stuff later, I've probably proven my @#$# point. The EASIEST plans that MIGHT work are based on
-having prior knowledge of the barbarian's existence
-somehow getting the drop on him
-playing a specific type of Casty
-and throwing out a good four-five spells in prebuffs on top of whatever is required to actually kill the guy.
This would be miles away from an effortless win even in the event it did somehow work, and there's STILL ways to screw over even those plans.The memetic mutation which occurred afterwards was an unintended but awesome side-effect.
No doubt that AM has achieved his objective, we can all accept that. However i would like to point out that your using a very specific build of martial character, who always has prior knowledge of his targets (unresolved issues with arcane sight and knowing what to sunder), he always gets the suprise round and often uses spell sunder multiple times to remove said spell pritections.
The only real difference between AM and the wizard he defeats are that spell sunder is part of an attack action rather than a standard action in itself, AM can undo 2 wizard turns in one of his own (one cast one quicken per turn) which wins action enconomy.
Like i said AM has succeeded at his objective but he has done it using all the things you mentioned wizards trying to use against you in return. More magnanimous in victory maybe in the future.
That is incorrect in both cases. You can be blinded and in solid fog and still sunder a spell. And Contingency doesn't say anything about the 'action' that causes it being one that effects you.Spell Sunder requires that you be able to see a spell. Permanent Arcane Sight does that easily. Spellcraft would be for identifying the spells.
Contingency casts a spell on you in reaction to something happening to you, or you speaking a command word. That doesn't seem that bad, but man, do people go crazy wild trying to make it do other things.
==Aelryinth
It also doesn't say that Contingency has the ability to detect and react to a myriad assortment of extraneous effects that wizards want to set up. Why wizards assume it can detect these things is a complete mystery.
I'd say let the wizard try a 3 page legal document. It's funny, but when you set up magic to do hideously complex stuff, it tends to malfunction. People try it with WISHES all the time. Doesn't work. It's like you're begging your GM to mess you up. My pat answer, upon getting a 3 page legal document would be to set it aside and say, "Okay, when I can figure out what it says, it'll go off," and get back to running the game. If they whine, then I can always remove the character from the game while the powers of magic try to decipher what exactly is supposed to happen. If he complains, he can always burn the spell and come back. Muck with the GM, he can muck with you back.
And if you are blinded with Arcane Sight you can still sense magic auras if you're trying to. Also, Spell Sundering does require you to be able to swing and hit stuff. IF you can feel magic, that makes a great target.
Let us all assume that Mind Blank covers all carried and worn gear, because it makes no sense otherwise. "I can't scry him? I'll just scry his arcane bonded object then." It would be a useless defense.
Note that a ready action does allow you to make a move. In this case, Batty Bat would make the move while AM would make the attack. There are definite advantages while being mounted! Would he get the charge bonus? possibly not.
The diviner can still be surprised...he just gets to act. Acting while AM is sitting next to you might be a problem. Or sitting on you, depending on what he did.
==Aelryinth
Honestly, the exercise's original point was 'I'm going to talk in allcaps about how awesome Barbarians are and prove that Castys cannot easily deal with them.'
The truth of the situation is that most of the classes can be awesome in an actual game of Pathfinder. As I said, I never bought into the wizards uber awesomesauce for reasons stated earlier. In a typical gaming day of 4 encounters, all classes should prove useful.
In fiction though, which is why D&D originally gave casters such tremendous uber power, casters are scary. That's the idea anyway. Martials usually use cool tricks to win. I suspect AM's novels will be coming any day now, but I fear the chapters will be rather short.
-having prior knowledge of the barbarian's existence
I try to avoid those, but this is AM's plan too. He has knowledge he is running into a casty no matter what casty looks like. I.e. if a casty is walking in a meadow looking like a normal guy, he should be getting to 120 ft. away from AM before AM says "holy crap auras" and attacks. But we ignore that for sake of exercise.
-somehow getting the drop on him
This is also AM's plan.
-playing a specific type of Casty
This is also AM's build and includes a specific type of mount without which survival for AM is unlikely.
-and throwing out a good four-five spells in prebuffs on top of whatever is required to actually kill the guy.
This is part of the class. This is also the fatal flaw of groups of wizards in novels. They run out of spells and angry townsfolk destroy them. Don't need AM to kill many many wizards.
Let us all assume that Mind Blank covers all carried and worn gear, because it makes no sense otherwise. "I can't scry him? I'll just scry his arcane bonded object then." It would be a useless defense.So: "Let's bring in house rules or the all mighty wizard is gimped."
Yup. AM has done his job.
Actually, I'm not sure where the idea that Mind Blank DIDN"T cover everything you wear came from. I'm not aware of any iteration of the spell where you could scry on the person's belt buckle instead of the person and bypass a spell which is supposed to guard against a GOD being able to find you.
So, no, it's not a House Rule...it's the way things have always historically been, and I'm really unsure why people think they can bypass the perfect anti-divinatory defense so easily. Remember, this is to PROTECT you against wizards, not make you vulnerable to them. There are magic items out there to cast 1/day mindblanks, too.
==Aelryinth
Let us all assume that Mind Blank covers all carried and worn gear, because it makes no sense otherwise. "I can't scry him? I'll just scry his arcane bonded object then." It would be a useless defense.So: "Let's bring in house rules or the all mighty wizard is gimped."
Yup. AM has done his job.
Actually, I'm not sure where the idea that Mind Blank DIDN"T cover everything you wear came from. I'm not aware of any iteration of the spell where you could scry on the person's belt buckle instead of the person and bypass a spell which is supposed to guard against a GOD being able to find you.
So, no, it's not a House Rule...it's the way things have always historically been, and I'm really unsure why people think they can bypass the perfect anti-divinatory defense so easily. Remember, this is to PROTECT you against wizards, not make you vulnerable to them. There are magic items out there to cast 1/day mindblanks, too.
==Aelryinth
Honestly I tend to agree with this interpretation. It makes no sense for an 8th level protection spell not extend that protection to the items on your person. It's not a house rule. It's following precedent that other similar spells have had.
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Some stuff, shortened for clarity's sake.
1. Okay, let's look at the 'tactical retreat.' You say it means AM wins. I say it means AM dies. Whether it takes me a half dozen rounds or until the next day, what's the difference? AM is still dead.
2. My point about mind blank follows the same logic as the rules for death. They're not clearly spelled out because they don't need to be. Mind blank covers all the caster's stuff as well as the caster's person. By your logic, invisiblilty doesn't cover your hair, because it doesn't specifically say it does. Let's be grownup about this.
3. The perception skill says that it's used to spot 'fine details.' Nowhere in there is there anything about needing to roll perception for something clearly visible. If there was such a requirement, you'd never be able to see a mountain a quarter-mile away on a clear day, because it's outside your perception range. Now, if AM is sneaking, and has something to hide behind, that's different...but AM has never said anything about sneaking.
4. My last comment was an attempt to inject a bit of levity into a discussion that's gotten more than a bit acrimonious. Please don't put a different meaning into my words, or make claims about what I may be thinking...that leads to acrimony, and we don't really need it.
NOT TO MENTION COMPLETELY FORGETTING BARBARIAN HAVE ANTAGONIZE.
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Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.
No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
The fact that he is the one initiating the surprise.
Forgive me if this has already been asked, but how is the super mount a mount at AM's lv 7?
At lv 7, the super mount's maximum level would be at 5th, and although he could get the mount evolution already, he won't be able to become large (thus rideable) by lv 10, meaning AM's lv 12. Since Enlarge Person can't be used on an Eidolon, does the summoner use reduce on AM? or is AM a Halfling or something?
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The fact that he is the one initiating the surprise.Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
How is he doing this? He CANNOT DETECT ME.
The fact that he is the one initiating the surprise.Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
AM can initiate a suprise round on someone who appears from nowhere with the specific intention of suprising him?
Not sure what ability that is but it does mean that AM does indeed always win, he must have levels in diviner himself.
Forgive me if this has already been asked, but how is the super mount a mount at AM's lv 7?
At lv 7, the super mount's maximum level would be at 5th, and although he could get the mount evolution already, he won't be able to become large (thus rideable) by lv 10, meaning AM's lv 12. Since Enlarge Person can't be used on an Eidolon, does the summoner use reduce on AM? or is AM a Halfling or something?
The summoner's enlarge can always affect himself, regardless og whether or not it normally can.
Who's talking level 7? This is a 20th level discussion.
Also, yes, enlarge person can be used on an Eidolon.
As long as the Summoner is the one who casts it, I believe. Might get a bit iffy with a Synthesist though...
Who's talking level 7? This is a 20th level discussion.
Also, yes, enlarge person can be used on an Eidolon.
I was referring to Trinam's statement on the ViviDragon Beast Alchemonk thread on who would win on earlier levels.
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As long as the Summoner is the one who casts it, I believe. Might get a bit iffy with a Synthesist though...Who's talking level 7? This is a 20th level discussion.
Also, yes, enlarge person can be used on an Eidolon.
Summoners have the 'Share spells' ability. This doesn't change for synthesists.
EDIT: Dammit, ninja'd.
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So AM never needing sleep and castys continuing to act while dead will never be "fixed" by the rules. You simply have to be smart enough to not do it (my words, not Paizo's).
Of course, if you allow castys to continue to act beyond being "dead" then AM gets to do the same. And castys, by RAW, DO need sleep. So even if we get ridiculously lawyer-esque with RAW, then AM still is superior to the castys.
How is he doing this? He CANNOT DETECT ME.The fact that he is the one initiating the surprise.Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
Ah right. I forgot high level wizards have grown so terrified of meadows they walk around invisibly, undetectable and ready to teleport at any remotely bat shaped object they see. It does explain why they have no friends. :P
Here's a fun thought. What if AM BARBARIAN raided at night? Or in the rain? A cloudy day? We're assuming clear skies in which case you've got a fair chance.
I think the issue here with your mountain analogy is that you are speaking of in fact a MOUNTAIN. What's the stealth penalty on a mountain? That might be something to consider. AM BARBARIAN is not a mountain. He is still presumably a medium creature riding a large one.
QUITE EASILY.
BARBARIAN NOT ABLE SEE CASTY WHO AM ARGUING WITH RIGHT NOW, BUT AM DEFINITELY FORCING TO REVEAL SELF TO ARGUE POINT, AND BARBARIAN NOT EVEN ABLE TO MAKE RUDE GESTURE HERE.
Probably should have gone in that thread, then, as it was rather a non sequitur here. Regardless, yes, anything that uses the "Share Spells" rule can cast enlarge person on the companion. This works for Synthesists as well because any spell that affects the Summoner also effects the Eidolon, so the Summoner just casts it on himself.I was referring to Trinam's statement on the ViviDragon Beast Alchemonk thread on who would win on earlier levels.Who's talking level 7? This is a 20th level discussion.
Also, yes, enlarge person can be used on an Eidolon.
It's been FAQ'd that Enlarge Person doesn't work on the synthesist purely because while fused it counts as an outsider.
I don't know if this has been asked but how does Am Barbarian deal with illusions? Is there anything stopping the wizard from concealing himself and making the Barbarian sunder shadows until his range is tapped?
We go out into the field for our regular flower picking sessions as well defended as possible, other than AM chasing us down i've heard some rumours about a new god who's portfolio of Chaos, Evil, Arguments, Crying and RPGpeen needs to keep the martial classes wanting to kill us.
Personally i prefer a few hundred pounds of armour and a spare set that i can teleport into incase of RAGELANCESUNDER but my squishier brethen have started reading my book, RAGELANCEPOUNCE: A Story of Survival, available in all good magic marts by the way, and are taking more precations.
AM can we arrange a book signing? It would really help sales if you did one somewhere while i did one somewhere else, still working on someone to play you in the film by the way, looks like it might have to be Russell Crowe.
We go out into the field for our regular flower picking sessions as well defended as possible, other than AM chasing us down i've heard some rumours about a new god who's portfolio of Chaos, Evil, Arguments, Crying and RPGpeen needs to keep the martial classes wanting to kill us.
Personally i prefer a few hundred pounds of armour and a spare set that i can teleport into incase of RAGELANCESUNDER but my squishier brethen have started reading my book, RAGELANCEPOUNCE: A Story of Survival, available in all good magic marts by the way, and are taking more precations.
AM can we arrange a book signing? It would really help sales if you did one somewhere while i did one somewhere else, still working on someone to play you in the film by the way, looks like it might have to be Russell Crowe.
BARBARIAN CONSIDER THIS, BUT BARBARIAN PRETTY SURE ANY PUBLIC APPEARENCES AM PUNCTUATED BY 70 BALORS. AM REALLY AWKWARD AT PARTIES.
AS FOR ILLUSION, BARBAIAN GENERALLY FIND BLINSENSE TO SUFFICE.
BARBARIAN CONSIDER THIS, BUT BARBARIAN PRETTY SURE ANY PUBLIC APPEARENCES AM PUNCTUATED BY 70 BALORS. AM REALLY AWKWARD AT PARTIES.
I'll get to work on that, AM, just need to figure out how to get 70 pit fiends to fight them in a tournament that end with the victor facing you....
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Oh, and here's how 'later' will go:
I teleport in near you.
Assuming you can find him by scrying. Which you have almost no chance of doing, since you don't know who attacked you (since you stipulated you teleported away before seeing the threatening enemy) and even if you did AM has a 1 in 400 chance to fail his save vs. scrying (since he has Improved Iron Will and has to roll two natural 1's).
But let's say that 1 in 400 chance comes up...
Surprise round starts. I cast waves of exhaustion.
Round 1 starts. I win initiative and cast waves of exhaustion,
Casting two of this spell in a row is pretty silly, since the spell specifically states "This spell has no effect on a creature that is already exhausted."
AM doesn't get double-exhausted. He has no need to ignore the first exhaustion effect, since he doesn't even act before you wave him again. He's still just exhausted, which he ignores with Heart of the Fields. Two spells, wasted.
followed by a quickened dimension door (quickened via rod, of course). I've still got a move action, that I use to switch to a greater rod of quicken.
You seem to have forgotten that when you cast DD, quickened or otherwise, you DON'T have any actions left. "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn."
Even if you could, it wouldn't be ONE move action to switch to a greater rod of quicken unless you dropped the first one on the ground. Stowing an item is one move action. Drawing an item is another move action. Dropping it is free though. You can only be holding one at a time, since you need the other hand free for actually casting your spells, unless your spells are all stilled.
AM does...not much. Can't rage, can't charge.
Incorrect. See above.
Maybe double move toward me? I mean, running away won't help, because he can't move faster than me.
Oh, what's your speed? Or, are you referring to the idea of your movement consisting of quickened dimension doors?
Round 2 starts. I win easily (details left as an exercise for the reader).
What can you do to stop me?
It's funny how many CASTY builds end with a phrase like "and then I win easily (details left as an exercise for the reader)." As opposed to actually providing details on how it's supposed to happen.
The second roll is from eater of spells, so it only applies while raging.
However, even if he does natural one, you can see a 15-ft area of sky around him, and the bat. For one round. Then he moves, and the sensor can't catch up due to its maximum move speed.
Good luck pinpointing.
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Heh. Yeah, I'd forgotten that about dimension door. Okay, I'd teleport a little ways away.
Heart of the Fields is a trait, not an ability. It's always on. So either AM ignores the first one immediately, or not at all. Either way, two of them will work. Alternately, if he has to activate it, I'd just cast the second waves of exhaustion in the second round. After all, he can't detect me at all. So he can't attack me, or sunder any of my spells. He doesn't know where I am.
And yeah, of course I'd drop the rod of quicken. It's on a weapon cord.
I'm faster than AM because he's exhausted, as is his mount. And I have MANY ways of increasing my speed, not least of which is the aforementioned dimension door.
Of course I'm not going to tell you how I'm going to beat AM here. That'd spoil the surprise when I meet him.
Best of all, if I don't manage to kill him this time, I just leave, and try again tomorrow. Or the next day. I can cast discern location, so he can't hide from me. Or is he wandering around with a mind blank up all the time, too, because he's terrified a caster might find him? Nah, he's not.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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How is he doing this? He CANNOT DETECT ME.The fact that he is the one initiating the surprise.Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.No, I was pretty clear, I thought. The surprise round doesn't start until AFTER I teleport in, because we're not in combat until then. Also, why does AM get to do anything? What ability does he have that allows him to act in a surprise round? I ask this because I honestly don't know of a feat or ability that allows it other than the diviner's school ability.
Sure he can. Mind blank blocks divinations. It doesn't block being noticed with good old fashioned Perception.
The Perception rule is quite simple: "Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you."
Invisibility gives you a +20 bonus to Stealth if you are moving. Teleportation is moving from one place to another, and the invisibility rule doesn't exclude magical movement.
You teleport to some point within 60 feet of AM, intending to use your waves of exhaustion. You make a Stealth check (at +20 for being invisible, +1 for every 10 feet between you), AM makes a Perception check. If his Perception check exceeds your your Stealth check, he notices you and there is no surprise round.
Whether AM (or any other creature) can *SEE* you is immaterial as to whether they NOTICE you, and it is the lack of being NOTICED that produces a surprise round, not the lack of being SEEN.
I believe it's been previously stated that AM's own Perception (apart from the Perception from BATTY BAT) is pretty darn high. It's no guarantee that teleporting invisibly on top of him will achieve surprise. It might. It might not. You'll still get a natural 20 on your initiative roll, so you'll most likely win initiative, but surprise is hardly guaranteed.
Heh. Yeah, I'd forgotten that about dimension door. Okay, I'd teleport a little ways away.
Heart of the Fields is a trait, not an ability. It's always on. So either AM ignores the first one immediately, or not at all. Either way, two of them will work. Alternately, if he has to activate it, I'd just cast the second waves of exhaustion in the second round. After all, he can't detect me at all. So he can't attack me, or sunder any of my spells. He doesn't know where I am.
And yeah, of course I'd drop the rod of quicken. It's on a weapon cord.
I'm faster than AM because he's exhausted, as is his mount. And I have MANY ways of increasing my speed, not least of which is the aforementioned dimension door.
Of course I'm not going to tell you how I'm going to beat AM here. That'd spoil the surprise when I meet him.
Best of all, if I don't manage to kill him this time, I just leave, and try again tomorrow. Or the next day. I can cast discern location, so he can't hide from me. Or is he wandering around with a mind blank up all the time, too, because he's terrified a caster might find him? Nah, he's not.
Your entire theory is based on the idea that you can teleport directly within 60 feet of something too fast to scry on and too high in the air to get any read on accurately.
Somehow remain able to waves him and run away. (Can't work on the mount, it's a lame oracle. Exhaustion immunity. :D)
Remain completely invisible through the whole process despite facing a perception bonus of over +60 within 60 feet, and then killing AM... Somehow.
At the risk of being accused of calling you a moron... Your plan had more holes than your caster after AM finished bringing all his causality arguments into a single observed state of fine blood mist.
You know what? Humor me. I want to hear this one, and I've given you the courtesy of telling you exactly how you die.
This is why it pays to build your own headbands of intelligence, each one has skill(s) that are tied to it that the creator does not need to have. you can have a headband of intelligence that gives you your class level in stealth, Knowledge (barbarian builds) and Profession (barbarian slayer) and another one that gives you ranks in UMD, Handle animal and linguistics.
Oracle curses are based on character level?
Oracle curses are based on character level?
Yep! Full oracle level + 1/2 every other level. Exhaustion is 10 total, so summoner 16/oracle 2 is exactly enough.
problem with that. I'm looking at Leadership now, and even though your cohort is restricted to being 2 levels under you, the maximum level of one is 17. Exhaustion is also 15. ARMOR negation is 10.
problem with that. I'm looking at Leadership now, and even though your cohort is restricted to being 2 levels under you, the maximum level of one is 17. Exhaustion is also 15. ARMOR negation is 10.
I see. I have my wires crossed, and should probably just drop blindsense in the future to accomodate since he effectively has it within 100' anyways. We'll see how I play it.
For the moment, however, point withdrawn. Poor guy can be exhausted. Poopie.
This thread, hilarity.
HEROLAB TO THE RESCUE!
Trinam.
Can you list the feats you know AM has, as well as his rage powers?
Interesting note though. Martial Artists (I.E. Chaotic Monks) are immune to exhaustion by lv 10. Now if that's your main concern, note that you're also eligible to Fighter-only feats. Just a note. but yeah. 10 levels is a pain.
This thread, hilarity.
HEROLAB TO THE RESCUE!
Trinam.
Can you list the feats you know AM has, as well as his rage powers?
I certainly could, but for the moment I want to keep it a trade secret until the build is finalized. Got an email I could forward it to?
Why would I teleport in to attack while you're flying? I'll just wait until you land for the night (or day, depending on whether you're a diurnal or nocturnal barbarian) and zap you then.
Mounts immune to fatigue.
Why would he ever land?
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Why would I teleport in to attack while you're flying? I'll just wait until you land for the night (or day, depending on whether you're a diurnal or nocturnal barbarian) and zap you then.Mounts immune to fatigue.
Why would he ever land?
Probably the two-for-one special at the drive-thru. I mean, he does eat, right? And other bodily functions?
Probably the two-for-one special at the drive-thru. I mean, he does eat, right? And other bodily functions?Why would I teleport in to attack while you're flying? I'll just wait until you land for the night (or day, depending on whether you're a diurnal or nocturnal barbarian) and zap you then.Mounts immune to fatigue.
Why would he ever land?
Survival checks.