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I'm trying to find whatever rulings I can about spellcasting, and what defines a free hand and whatnot. My group is only going to accept 'official' rulings such as errata, and maybe developer's talking about it. The character in question is a Lore Oracle with the Haunted Curse, using a sword and shield.
The things that were discussed by the group (I don't know which will be enforced):
1) What defines a free hand for somatic components.
2) If a spell has a somatic component and a material component, wouldn't you need 2 hands free to cast it?
3) Anything that has a somatic component and a divine focus would also need 2 hands.
4) What constitutes a divine focus (does it need to be a separate item like a holy symbol, or does a symbol engraved on your shield count, or tattoos on the body).
5) This wasn't brought up, but just in case it does, I have the Haunted curse. Does this mean I cannot use material components as part of the spell.
6) Does it take an action to withdraw material components from your pouch?
Also any advice on how to work around this would be helpful. I know of the Weapon Cord, but conceptually I didn't like it. Now it looks like it might be necessary. Any Feats/Equipment/Traits and whatnot. If there's a link to another post that discusses this, that would be helpful too. Thanks in advance.
Use a light shield and get it turned into a holy symbol. Take eschew materials.
As an Oracle you can ignore the need for the Divine Focus (last line of the Spells section).
I'm pondering the same situation (Oracle of Wood) - and I was coming to the boards today to get a solid answer. The universe must be in alignment. (If I need a free hand I am going to be switching weapons to Quarterstaff, but I will really miss my +2 AC heavy wooden shield).
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Missed that line about the Divine Focus, that takes care of one issue, for which I thank you. And Eschew Materials is a good idea, though it sucks to have to devote a feat to it, but at this point looks like I might.
As far as the light shield, the discussion is whether you can cast spells with it. The wording seems kinda iffy.
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** spoiler omitted **
I'm trying to find whatever rulings I can about spellcasting, and what defines a free hand and whatnot. My group is only going to accept 'official' rulings such as errata, and maybe developer's talking about it. The character in question is a Lore Oracle with the Haunted Curse, using a sword and shield.
The things that were discussed by the group (I don't know which will be enforced):
1) What defines a free hand for somatic components.
Not having something in that hand and not using the hand for something else.
2) If a spell has a somatic component and a material component, wouldn't you need 2 hands free to cast it?
The general interpretation is that one hand is used for both.
3) Anything that has a somatic component and a divine focus would also need 2 hands.
This wasn't necessarily clear in SRD 3.5, but in PF, the divine focus doesn't need to be manually manipulated as part of casting.
4) What constitutes a divine focus (does it need to be a separate item like a holy symbol, or does a symbol engraved on your shield count, or tattoos on the body).
IIRC, any of that works and there is also a trait for having it as a birthmark.
5) This wasn't brought up, but just in case it does, I have the Haunted curse. Does this mean I cannot use material components as part of the spell.
I assume the passage in question is, "Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action." If so, that would be a fairly heavy penalty.
6) Does it take an action to withdraw material components from your pouch?
Preparing materials from a spell component pouch explicitly is a free action when included as part of casting.
Also any advice on how to work around this would be helpful. I know of the Weapon Cord, but conceptually I didn't like it. Now it looks like it might be necessary. Any Feats/Equipment/Traits and whatnot. If there's a link to another post that discusses this, that would be helpful too. Thanks in advance.
The general approach is using a buckler or light shield. A buckler can be used for the casting. A light shield cannot be used for the casting, but can temporarily hold the weapon while casting with the other hand. The action of moving the weapon from hand-to-hand is undefined in the rules, but a fairly early developer ruling in-forum has tended toward calling it a free action.
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The general approach is using a buckler or light shield. A buckler can be used for the casting. A light shield cannot be used for the casting, but can temporarily hold the weapon while casting with the other hand. The action of moving the weapon from hand-to-hand is undefined in the rules, but a fairly early developer ruling in-forum has tended toward calling it a free action.
Don't suppose anyone has a link to that forum topic? Tried looking for abit but couldn't find it.
As far as the light shield, the discussion is whether you can cast spells with it. The wording seems kinda iffy.
If I recall correctly there is something in the errata or FAQ on it that says you can, it was developer explicitly vetted (as opposed to 'opinion posts' or 'in my game' from them).
1) What defines a free hand for somatic components.
Any hand where you can free to carry something is hand free to do somatic components. This is under the Combat Section, the part where it says what Actions can do.
2) If a spell has a somatic component and a material component, wouldn't you need 2 hands free to cast it?
According to the rules getting and using a material component is free action. So you do the somatic part, use free action to get the components. This rule is under the Magic Section of the core rule book.
3) Anything that has a somatic component and a divine focus would also need 2 hands.
This follows the exact same rule as material components. Since Oracle don't need a Divine Focus you are good to go.
4) What constitutes a divine focus (does it need to be a separate item like a holy symbol, or does a symbol engraved on your shield count, or tattoos on the body).
A divine focus is determined by the class. For clerics it's a Holy symbol for Druids it's a sprig of holly. It's up to the GM to determine what a appropriate holy symbol is. They are based of the deity but they aren't all that useful beyond the purpose as divine focus.
5) This wasn't brought up, but just in case it does, I have the Haunted curse. Does this mean I cannot use material components as part of the spell.
You can, just make sure you have the components ready. If you have to get them from a stored location you need to use a standard action. I assume that spell components are not in a stored location as they are Free Action to use and getting anything from stored location is a Move Action. So by this logic your components are readied item not a stored items and the curse doesn't apply to them.
6) Does it take an action to withdraw material components from your pouch?
It's a free action if you have spell component pouch. Other wise it's move action to get them from stored location. This in the Core Rule book Combat Section under actions.
The spell component pouch also means you don't have to keep track of spell components, it assumes all you need is in the pouch. This under material components in the Core Rule book magic section.
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Is this the post?
Yep, this post by James Jacobs says, "Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.
The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
Also... lay on hands helps keep the story going by helping to avoid disruptive player death and lets everyone keep playing the game. So it's good to not stack more qualifiers and requirements on it."
Obviously he's talking about Lay On Hands, but LOH is a standard action that requires a free hand - the same requirements as casting a spell. What he's describing is that you shift your sword into your shield hand, cast the spell with your sword hand, then shift the sword back to where it belongs.
I'm not entirely convinced this should apply to casting spells, but it's a decent argument.
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Regarding the Haunted curse and spell components - Jason Buhlman from the FAQ.
Oracle: Does the haunted curse (page 44) affect the items in an oracle's spell component pouch?
The question here is whether or not the haunted curse makes is so that to cast any spell using a material component, the oracle has to first spend a standard action to find the right material component. Fortunately for oracles everywhere, this is not the case. The items in a spell component pouch are nebulous and not defined (intentionally, so as to prevent casters from having to track the amount of bat guano they are carrying). As a result, this curse has no effect on such components. For ease of play, this extends to all material components, including expensive ones.
If you don't mind my asking, what prompted them to change their minds about divine casting after so long?
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We were fighting a bunch of skeletons (level 4) and I had kinda built for defense, Lore oracle with sidestep secret, +1 chain shirt, +1 heavy steel shield, shield focus feat. Had a 23 AC. The skeletons were having a difficult time hitting me (and tbh, all of us). I was rolling pretty bad myself and was thinking about burning a CLW spell to just kill one off. For whatever reason another player asked how I was going to cast a spell while using a weapon and shield.
At that I mentioned we've always kinda glazed over that aspect of it for divine casters. GM agreed with me and then decided that's not how we're going to do it anymore. And then mentioned the same goes for Divine Focuses, you've got to hold them.
I was more than a little miffed at that, rolled and missed another attack on a skeleton with my sword, pulled open my books and verified that Cure spells do indeed have a somatic component. At that point I simply stated that apparently people weren't going to be getting cure spells in combat until I figured it out (yes, it was being juvenile, I fully admit that), to which that previous player asked if the group was going to have to suffer because I didn't build my character right, to which I did state yes. The GM then decided to revoke the decision for the rest of the session until we could work it out.
And yes I was not quite being immature (hell, I was probably pouty about it), but it's still better than going nerd rage. It's just irritating to me that I play a character for awhile, with a (though unspoken) house rule we've used for a number of years, and when I toy with using my spells offensively (first time fighting undead), DENIED!!
FYI later on in the session we fought some kinda big named undead thing and others were happy I was able to channel offensively (and defensively).
Thanks for giving us the story. It doesn't like you were abusing any rules.
I happen to be in a Kingmaker campaign (level 3) with a player who has a Lore Oracle using a weapon & shield. So, if you happen to find a really solid answer anywhere, please post!
Since I apparently broke the "Don't be an *******" rule, I'm attempting to fix my character. I tried to cite sources.
First off, the Divine Focus. Just to end the Oracle aspect of the arguement, quoted from the Pathfinder PRD (that's the official one):
Unlike a cleric, an oracle need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.___________________________________________________________________________ _____________________
Secondly, spells with a somatic component. No I can't cast one while I have a weapon and heavy shield. There is no specific ruling I could find that you cannot cast with the light shield, but inferred from the buckler from the PRD:
You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Now on that subject, Pathfinder does not state what action is required to switch a weapon from one hand to the other. This is not explicitly defined in the PRD, Errata, or FAQ, but was defined by a Creative Developer, James Jacobs:
Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand. The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
This means that I could simply downgrade my shield to a Light Steel Shield, losing 1 point of AC, and can still cast. This is only official so far as a Creative Developer stating it, and is not backed by any official rulings, so up to GM approval. I'll need you to approve or deny this *******. Otherwise I'll figure something else out.
______________________________________________________________
Thirdly, someone mentioned material components, can't remember who. Here's the PRD for material components and focuses when casting a spell:
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
So it's a free action to use a material component. But per the Haunted curse for Oracles:
Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer.
Now since it's a move action to retrieve a stored item, and it's a free action to retrieve a spell component, it can be inferred that spell components are not stored items.
Source
Of course this can be easier summarized by linking from the Official Advanced Player's Guide FAQ:
Oracle: Does the haunted curse (page 44) affect the items in an oracle's spell component pouch?
The question here is whether or not the haunted curse makes is so that to cast any spell using a material component, the oracle has to first spend a standard action to find the right material component. Fortunately for oracles everywhere, this is not the case. The items in a spell component pouch are nebulous and not defined (intentionally, so as to prevent casters from having to track the amount of bat guano they are carrying). As a result, this curse has no effect on such components. For ease of play, this extends to all material components, including expensive ones.—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
I think I've covered everything besides that one ruling. Let me know if you need anything else.
[An outstanding summary of the related facts.]
Bravo and thank you!
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We were fighting a bunch of skeletons (level 4) and I had kinda built for defense, Lore oracle with sidestep secret, +1 chain shirt, +1 heavy steel shield, shield focus feat. Had a 23 AC. The skeletons were having a difficult time hitting me (and tbh, all of us). I was rolling pretty bad myself and was thinking about burning a CLW spell to just kill one off. For whatever reason another player asked how I was going to cast a spell while using a weapon and shield.
At that I mentioned we've always kinda glazed over that aspect of it for divine casters. GM agreed with me and then decided that's not how we're going to do it anymore. And then mentioned the same goes for Divine Focuses, you've got to hold them.
I was more than a little miffed at that, rolled and missed another attack on a skeleton with my sword, pulled open my books and verified that Cure spells do indeed have a somatic component. At that point I simply stated that apparently people weren't going to be getting cure spells in combat until I figured it out (yes, it was being juvenile, I fully admit that), to which that previous player asked if the group was going to have to suffer because I didn't build my character right, to which I did state yes. The GM then decided to revoke the decision for the rest of the session until we could work it out.
And yes I was not quite being immature (hell, I was probably pouty about it), but it's still better than going nerd rage. It's just irritating to me that I play a character for awhile, with a (though unspoken) house rule we've used for a number of years, and when I toy with using my spells offensively (first time fighting undead), DENIED!!
FYI later on in the session we fought some kinda big named undead thing and others were happy I was able to channel offensively (and defensively).
As mentioned, Oracles don't need a divine focus. However, the next time you're playing a cleric you could paint your holy symbol to the tips of your middle fingers and equip a light weapon and buckler. You never know when you might need to double-present your holy symbol. Feel free to demonstrate to your more inquisitive party members how that works.
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At that point I simply stated that apparently people weren't going to be getting cure spells in combat until I figured it out (yes, it was being juvenile, I fully admit that), to which that previous player asked if the group was going to have to suffer because I didn't build my character right, to which I did state yes.
That other player is a jerk. He is casting you as a solo player hampering the group because you have not built your character to take into account a rule that just did not exist for your group prior to his own negative intervention. Epitome of jerkness IMO.
I guess that he didn't like that your Divine caster would be better than his character at hurting undead.
The GM then decided to revoke the decision for the rest of the session until we could work it out.
Wise GM who knows the power of player's rage.
while we're discussing spell casting and shields, here's a thing I've always been wondering about:
Casters are only casting with one hand. If a wizard holds a shield in the other noncasting hand, does he then recieve the arcane spell faliure chance from that shield although he's not moving that arm at all?
while we're discussing spell casting and shields, here's a thing I've always been wondering about:
Casters are only casting with one hand. If a wizard holds a shield in the other noncasting hand, does he then recieve the arcane spell faliure chance from that shield although he's not moving that arm at all?
For some reason yes he would take the ASF.