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I'm about to start running "Rise of the Runelords" with 1st level characters.
It looks to me like Adventure Paths end around 13th to 15th level. Society play restricts you to 12th level (forcing them to retire or stay at 12th level I believe). I've also heard it get's harder to play and/or GM at higher levels.
So, in home games, using Adventure Path modules or homebrew campaigns, do folks typically 'retire' a character once they're around 13th to 15th level? How many keep their character going after 15th level?
The reason I'm asking is I'd like to set a cap on level advancement so as not to have players in my group play with 19th and 20th level characters, but I'm not sure what the right lower level cap might be.
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I'm about to start running "Rise of the Runelords" with 1st level characters.
It looks to me like Adventure Paths end around 13th to 15th level. Society play restricts you to 12th level (forcing them to retire or stay at 12th level I believe). I've also heard it get's harder to play and/or GM at higher levels.
So, in home games, using Adventure Path modules or homebrew campaigns, do folks typically 'retire' a character once they're around 13th to 15th level? How many keep their character going after 15th level?
The reason I'm asking is I'd like to set a cap on level advancement so as not to have players in my group play with 19th and 20th level characters, but I'm not sure what the right lower level cap might be.
That entirely depends on the PM (Path Master) and the players....my group tends to start overwhelming my PMing abilities around level 11 or 12. With a less optimized group or a PM more used to High level gameplay that could go much higher....I tend to have less prep time than I like so I lose during higher levels.
This depends on your abilities as a DM and what your players expect, personally I've ran a homebrew campaign from lvl 1 up to lvl 28 (using 3.5e) and even at high levels I could keep a good control on PCs, it's just a matter of effort. My players like to be able to reach untold echelons of power so going up to and beyond 20 is what they expect and look forward to as they level, however some people prefer to play low level games where their PCs only make it to 10th level. You should talk to your group before setting up a cap, because they may be expecting to go beyond it and then get frustrated from your limitation of them. If this is one of your first DMing experiences don't start off by imposing a cap, let the game continue until you feel like the PCs are starting to get difficult to handle, mark that level, and use it as a standard for further campaigns. That's just my 2c on the matter.
The book goes to level 20. I would take the character to 20.
Well considering how unplayable low-levels are, I wouldn't retire a character unless he dies in a bad place until 20.
Short answer - the character(s) retire when the player(s) want to retire the character prior to the campaign end or when the campaign comes to an end.
So, if you are doing Rise of the Runelords, the campaign ends at the end of the series of modules if the DM has no intention of extending the campaign. So you really don't need to put a cap in place if you are the DM. Simply wrap up the campaign and start another.
I have run about 17 campaigns that went to 20+ level, and a bunch more that went to the mid-teens.
High level play IMO is only hard on the DM if he has no experience with it. I have seen lots of people complain about high level play, yet have never gone to levels above the mid teens or have it done it only once. Like anything else, repetition makes it easier as the DM refines his skill set and learns what to handwave and what to focus on.
Well considering how unplayable low-levels are, I wouldn't retire a character unless he dies in a bad place until 20.If low levels were so unplayable, how do you get to those high levels you prefer?
I play the game. Just because I dislike limited options at low-levels doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing the game. On a scale of 1-10, low-levels (about 1-6) are 5-6. Mid-levels (about 7-12) are 8, and high-levels, where you actually have enough feats and class abilities... that goes to 11.
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Well, I ran a game that started with 14th level characters (some of the characters were from a previous campaign that leveled from 2nd level up).
When the campaign ended at 19th level, I don't think the characters themselves were up for retirement yet, at least not all of them. :) It's just the GM needed to let her brain regenerate.
Really, I don't think there's a rule or guideline for this, nor should there be. You either decide your character's done because the story feels right, or the campaign ends.
I think the reason PUBLISHED adventures most often stop at level 12 and 15 respectively is because it is hard to write generic adventures that suit every high level party. You can't have linear stories with characters who work the laws of physics like silly putty. It's absolutely doable to run a high level adventure--I did it! But I found I had to be very flexible with the storyline and the prepwork. Further, while every party can look quite different, it's all the more the case at high levels, where the feats you've chosen and spells you've taken and class abilities you've learned are harder to account for if you're writing an adventure that can be adapted to any group. It can and has been done, but it's not easy (it doesn't make me stop wishing for more high level stuff out there, but still). It would probably be better to write up scenarios which describe an area and situation but not a prescribed path to its solution.
I'm about to start running "Rise of the Runelords" with 1st level characters.
It looks to me like Adventure Paths end around 13th to 15th level. Society play restricts you to 12th level (forcing them to retire or stay at 12th level I believe). I've also heard it get's harder to play and/or GM at higher levels.
So, in home games, using Adventure Path modules or homebrew campaigns, do folks typically 'retire' a character once they're around 13th to 15th level? How many keep their character going after 15th level?
The reason I'm asking is I'd like to set a cap on level advancement so as not to have players in my group play with 19th and 20th level characters, but I'm not sure what the right lower level cap might be.
We don't have a level cap, but we do have happen is that once a particular AP/campaign is done the next one brings brand new characters. As for high level play it can be a headache, but it is not a guarantee. It depends on the group and the GM. I have GM'd to 20, but I prefer to stop between 15 and 17th level.
@Fake Healer
i see what you did there
For me, it depends entirely on the character. If the character has accomplished whatever it was they set out to do(avenge fallen family, acquire land, etc), then I'll typically retire them. This usually coincides with me losing interest in playing the character, since they did what they set out to do.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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In my experience, our characters are typically retired around level 12-15.
We start each campaign at level 1 and my players are typically ready to try a new character by the time we play enough adventures to reach that level. (We play once or twice a month, so it's typically a year and a half or so of "real time" before we reach that level).
Honestly, it comes down to personal taste.
The question you should ask yourself is what are your plans after you finish Rise of the Runelords? Will you have adventures planned for the PCs after the path is over? If so, then capping the level at 20 is not unreasonable. It gives your PCs 5-ish more levels to advance post-AP before retiring. If you don't have anything planned for after the AP, then I would start again with new PCs for your next campaign (whatever that may be). The AP is over, you don't have any plans for continuing it, so the logical "retirement age" is whatever level the PCs reach when the AP is over.
Hope this helps!
Many of the campaigns I've played in end between 8 and 13, since the DM has finished the story that they set out to tell. This is also true of the Adventure Paths, which usually run to between 12 and 15.
I have played in a couple of games which extended into epic levels very successfully, however. A skilled DM with a creative group can keep a campaign going nearly indefinitely (or until too many of the players graduate college/move to other towns/get married/have kids/or otherwise lose access to a regular timeslot for gaming).
It is always possible to re-scale the encounters in an adventure path to match whatever level your characters are.
One of our DMs is adapting Shackled City for our epic group, mostly by trading out the monsters in the encounters, beefing up traps, and including some more political interplay with the nobles in the city based around other events in his world.
A favorite tactic of another DM in my old college group was to make kobolds be effective at any level. They may be physically weak, but were as intelligent as an average human, and fiendishly clever at making traps. Even a high level party had to worry about why a kobold was running away in a specific direction, since they might have put up several ambushes along the way. Also, never crawl through the low tunnel in the kobold lair. You count as prone, and you can't make a dex save vs the guillotine trap, or defend against the coup-de-grace with a sledgehammer from such a tight space when you stick your head out the other end.
Also, use the environment against the players. The monsters can take tactical advantage from terrain, making even low to mid-level monsters effective against an epic group.
You can even sanely continue into epic without any limit by limiting Wish and Miracle (make the only kind of wish that they get be the kind a sadistic genie would grant), only give poor quality or cryptic information from divination spells, and don't use anything but carefully selected feats from the 3e/3.5 epic level handbook.
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Retire the characters at whatever level they decide they are done with this adventuring ordeal.
Whether that is at level 2...
I've had it! I know I only just joined up with the Pathfinder Society, but I thought I'd get to go exploring interesting lands! Now I'm throwing rocks at zombies in opera houses? Forget it! I'm getting out!
Heh, kidding. (Not about the rocks, though - killed two zombies, one of them with a single rock. I'm that good.)
The PM thing? Yeah, my group got discussing it and we decided that Pathfinder should have it's own moniker for Game Master instead of the generic GM....I intend to use it until it becomes common now.@Fake Healer
i see what you did there
PM is now and will always mean "private message," a feature desperately needed on these forums.
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If you don't have anything planned for after the AP, then I would start again with new PCs for your next campaign (whatever that may be). The AP is over, you don't have any plans for continuing it, so the logical "retirement age" is whatever level the PCs reach when the AP is over. Hope this helps!
That makes sense. Thanks for the advice :-)
Characters should retire when the adventure is complete; that doesn't necessarily mean when the sixth part of the adventure path is finished.
You'll note that later Paizo adventure paths have a section in the back about continuing the adventure, so that's one way that it might not end after part 6.
Another way it might continue is if the GM has an idea for an adventure that happens after the adventure path is over.
You may not even need to know necessarily how it all pans out. In our current game, the overall plot is known, but the details are still unwritten, and with the awesome new Paizo material that keeps coming out, it changes from time-to-time (Horsemen of the Apocalypse, I'm looking at you).
But most importantly, a campaign needs to have an actual end. We've been playing for 5 years now, and will be playing for years more, but that's just because the plot is a huge wheels within wheels thing - there is an end, and it will happen. It's just a question of precisely when and how :)
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Not because they're losing interest in the characters, but because the game is continuing to ramp up in lethality and the player - after years of running this character - is starting to feel that he/she deserves a 'happy ending'.
Huh. I'm never noticed the lethality get worse as you go up. Quite the opposite, and what risk there is gets offset by access to resurrection magic.
Level 1 is probably the most lethal level in the game.
When I've run D&D games in the past I've always focused on the Adventurer Levels (1-10). I prefer more down to earth fantasy campaigns. The Hero Levels (11-20) represent an extraordinary few. Like the Heros out of Greek mythology. In my opinion these upper levels should not be used in just any campaign but reserved for those specifically designed around such characters. I wonder does Pathfinder even cover Epic Levels (21-30) and God Levels (31-40)?
When I've run D&D games in the past I've always focused on the Adventurer Levels (1-10). I prefer more down to earth fantasy campaigns. The Hero Levels (11-20) represent an extraordinary few. Like the Heros out of Greek mythology. In my opinion these upper levels should not be used in just any campaign but reserved for those specifically designed around such characters. I wonder does Pathfinder even cover Epic Levels (21-30) and God Levels (31-40)?
It covers levels above 20 only briefly in the Core Rulebook, p406-407. The subject of levels above 20 is sure to cause apoplexy in many casual readers, ambivalence in some, and ecstasy in others.
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So, in home games, using Adventure Path modules or homebrew campaigns, do folks typically 'retire' a character once they're around 13th to 15th level? How many keep their character going after 15th level?
Depends on many factors, including DM and player attendance. I've dhad games end at 5th, 10th, 12th....my current one we're 16th level and no end in sight- we're in ptolus, we need to finish gol gulgomth, Dra Phantas, Jabel Shammar......and some other stuff I'm sure. Some of us will be 20th I'm sure.
This is something that I have been debating myself as I start up a campaign with some students at my job..
Personally, I fall in love with the story and the idea of fleshing that tale out to be told. To make something a bit more out of it as your character reaches level 20, advances and moves on to greater and more important thing with the Planes. But, alas I'm also a novice PM and not sure of my capabilities starting out :)
My opinion, without education, is strictly that: Keep them moving up and up.
I typically run until 21 or 22 (at least until we get epic rules) the thing to remember is the higher the level the more work you as the GM have to put in to keep from being steamrolled or steamrolling them.