Having searched through the boards for an answer I find myself having more questions than when I started.
The swarm traits make them bascially immune to weapons and any targeted spell. Clear enough...but as I searched for a recourse (other than having a bunch of flasks of acid/fire or a arcane caster with burnings hands) I happened upon several posts which brought in the possibility of a lit torch doing damage.
The first thread was rather old but the most promising I thought...
Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
It has some comments from Jason Jacobs which I am always happy to see, but in this case his comments seem to support the fact that a torch would do damage to a swarm at least at first but then later seems to be changing his point of view.
He also suggests adding it to the errata thread Problem Errata In Bestiary PDF
I found said post but no one seems to have address this...does that mean it wasn't changed?
I have also found other places where Jason has stated similarly that elemental damage does work on a swarm here
I don't suppose someone *cough*Jason Jacobs*cough* would be willing to clear up my confusion? Thanks to all in advance for any assistance.
Just bring a neutral death cleric. He can negative channel the swarm to death and keep the party healed with spells.
While I agree that would indeed solve the problem so would having a sorc/wiz with burning hands. I don't have access to any of those things so that is moot.
I won't speak as to what the rule is, but if there isn't a rule yet I would think it should approximate what I think would happen in the "real world"...
Let's take a swarm of spiders. Throwing a torch on the floor without anything for it to ignite doesn't seem like it would be effective. Especially considering that swarms are usually more than 5 ft. in diameter, most of the little buggers would simply walk around the flame or avoid it.
Now, as for using a torch as a shield to scare away monsters? I see that as possible. But I think the RAW says nothing on this.
I was running a module recently that included a swarm of bats. I noticed that my players (who were brand new to tabletop gaming) had no area-of-effect spells and nothing to attack them with. I didn't want to TPK them, and so when one of the players excitedly thought of lighting her torch and thrashing her way through the swarm of bats, I ruled that it worked.
In hindsight, I think I should have allowed it but also allowed some attacks against her from behind as she walked through the swarm.
If you are going into an area where you could expect swarms and don't have a caster who can deal elemental and/or area damage, pick up some flasks of acid or alchemist's fire. They're cheap and gain the +50% damage bonus.
If you are going into an area where you could expect swarms and don't have a caster who can deal elemental and/or area damage, pick up some flasks of acid or alchemist's fire. They're cheap and gain the +50% damage bonus.I think the point that the OP is trying to make is, if you don't have this stuff with you at the time, then you are most assuredly screwed unless you can run for it.
Sure we can sit around and think of all the stuff you could buy to deal with a swarm, but unless you have it geared when you encounter one than all that doesn't matter.
If you haven't prepped to have any emergency way of handling swarms (which are not that rare) then yes, you run. The only real low-level swarm that is immune to weapon damage is the spider swarm, and that should be outrunnable in most situations. Bat or rat swarms have low hp and can be damaged by weapons. By the time you're facing CR4 centipede or leech swarms, hopefully your adventuring party has at least some minimal emergency way to deal damage to a swarm of diminutive creatures.
Sunrunnerii, if you're not finding anything more recent than the suggested bestiary errata adding back the 3.5 torch-to-swarm damage rule (I couldn't spot anything) and want input from James Jacobs, you could always inquire here. It's technically an off-topic thread, but you may get the answer you want.
Also, you may not be able to cast a spell requiring a target on a swarm, but any caster in your party can zap it with damaging spells that create effects requiring attack rolls (not targets). Even 1st-2nd level arcane casters can pick away the hp of a CR1 spider swarm with a ray of frost or such if they don't have real prepared damage spells.
EDIT: Bats are diminutive; I can't read.
Back in the old v3.5 days, one of the books had rules for using a torch as an improvised club with 1 point of fire damage tacked on in such a way as to affect swarms (with the fire damage only if they were immune to weapon damage). Obviously in Pathfinder that would have to be a house rule.
Back in the old v3.5 days, one of the books had rules for using a torch as an improvised club with 1 point of fire damage tacked on in such a way as to affect swarms (with the fire damage only if they were immune to weapon damage). Obviously in Pathfinder that would have to be a house rule.
You can still do that. Not as good an option as being able to swing a torch at spiders for 1d3 fire damage (3.5 vulnerabilities of swarms, per OPs first link), but it's better than nothing.
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Having searched through the boards for an answer I find myself having more questions than when I started.
The swarm traits make them bascially immune to weapons and any targeted spell. Clear enough...but as I searched for a recourse (other than having a bunch of flasks of acid/fire or a arcane caster with burnings hands) I happened upon several posts which brought in the possibility of a lit torch doing damage.
The first thread was rather old but the most promising I thought...
Vulnerabilities Of SwarmsIt has some comments from Jason Jacobs which I am always happy to see, but in this case his comments seem to support the fact that a torch would do damage to a swarm at least at first but then later seems to be changing his point of view.
He also suggests adding it to the errata thread Problem Errata In Bestiary PDF
I found said post but no one seems to have address this...does that mean it wasn't changed?I have also found other places where Jason has stated similarly that elemental damage does work on a swarm here
I don't suppose someone *cough*Jason Jacobs*cough* would be willing to clear up my confusion? Thanks to all in advance for any assistance.
There can be other work arounds to not having a caster. Making small explosives or just carrying oil/alcohol to light can work. I can't think of a character I've made in 10 years that hasn't had oil or alcohol on him/her.
As far as the torch goes I believe the way it would work is the damage for hitting them with the torch is a mute point, but the fire would still do 1 damage. Its still bound to singe/burn one little guy each time you swing it in there even if you don't "hit" one directly.
The only real low-level swarm that is immune to weapon damage is the spider swarm, and that should be outrunnable in most situations.My party ran into a swarm of flesh eating cockroaches from beastiary 2. The party was level one. They are immune to weapon damage and have a fly speed of 30. Tricky little buggers!
I like your GM's style. ;)
Also, you may not be able to cast a spell requiring a target on a swarm, but any caster in your party can zap it with damaging spells that create effects requiring attack rolls (not targets). Even 1st-2nd level arcane casters can pick away the hp of a CR1 spider swarm with a ray of frost or such if they don't have real prepared damage spells.
This was something that Jason mentioned in one of his posts...I guess I am not sure where this rule is outlined...where is target defined?
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This was something that Jason mentioned in one of his posts...I guess I am not sure where this rule is outlined...where is target defined?
Also, you may not be able to cast a spell requiring a target on a swarm, but any caster in your party can zap it with damaging spells that create effects requiring attack rolls (not targets). Even 1st-2nd level arcane casters can pick away the hp of a CR1 spider swarm with a ray of frost or such if they don't have real prepared damage spells.
In the Magic section of the PRD.
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
If the spell's statblock has a Target, you cannot use it on a swarm. If it creates an Effect, you can.
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.
(Also, it's James Jacobs.)
Okay thanks for the help WRoy! I appreciate it.
... If the spell's statblock has a Target, you cannot use it on a swarm. If it creates an Effect, you can...
Thank you, we didn't know that.
... In addition, I would have to rule that the winds and rain have no effect on the swarm because the only listed effect of the wind and rain is that it causes the target to take a -2 penalty on attack roll, where a swarm doesn't have an attack roll.
Thoughts???
If it had been me, I would have ruled that it dispursed the swarm. Most bats/bugs don't get out in the rain much.
But I agree that is a GM specific ruling.
...I think the point that the OP is trying to make is, if you don't have this stuff with you at the time, then you are most assuredly screwed unless you can run for it.
Sure we can sit around and think of all the stuff you could buy to deal with a swarm, but unless you have it geared when you encounter one than all that doesn't matter.
Bingo.
Happened to us. Low level casters (1st and 2nd) can only prep a few spells. Wasn't a shop to buy all that much if I had even thought of it. But didn't think of it, we were gearing up to fight a specific type of enemy.
I will try to remember for the future to always have a few flasks of acid or fire. But the adventure had IIRC 6 locations that each probably had a bat swarm. even if we had some, it is very unlikely we would have had enough to deal with 6 of them.
It is a low level easy encounter that can suddenly become much harder than expected.
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If the spell's statblock has a Target, you cannot use it on a swarm. If it creates an Effect, you can.
Could you post a link to where Mr. Jacobs states this? It seems to directly contradict the PRD:
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate)
Effect: ray
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One other thing, my groups typically play that elemental damage on a weapon (such as flaming) does go through. Apparently, this may be only a holdover from 3.5, however, although James Jacobs says he thinks it's fun. This is a good rule because swarm HP pretty quickly outstrip the point where doing 1 point of damage with a torch is significant, or even 1d6/round with alchemical items [1], so unless your fighter is carrying a necklace of fireball, he's going to be pretty bored until your blaster(s) either kill the swarm or run out of AoEs.
[1] Assuming you have enough and they're not on the party treasure sheet carried by a player who isn't there that day. Also, I recommend you favor acid because it won't set things on fire that you don't want to be on fire.
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I understand a -4 penalty throwing a alchemist fire into a swarm engaged with a friendly. However, when is the swarm considered engaged? It has a reach of 0 so doesn't engagement mean the swarm has to be in the same square as the friendly to give a -4 penalty?
The rule says creatures are considered engaged if EITHER of them threaten the other? Does this mean a -4 penalty for throwing an alchemist fire into a swarm with a reach of 0 NOT in a friendly's square but the friendly threatening the swarm with a 5 foot reach?
Can anyone explain the rash of 4+ year old necro's lately?
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Jeff Jutzi, there is a special layer of the Abyss. This layer is reserved solely for goblin baby punters, people who talk in the theater, and people who necromance The Worst Threads.
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WRoy - thanks, that is a good find. I hadn't realized that myself.
I have a further question for you to ponder. My group was contemplating using a Storm Druid's SP ability Storm Burst against the swarm.
Here is the description:
** spoiler omitted **Now my interpretation, based on that it is not a spell and thus doesn't have a statblock AND based on the example you provided of the Ray of Frost spell, is that the Storm Burst ability would not work because it states in the description: targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Where the Ray of Frost clearly is an effect, not a target, that does damage to a target based on a ranged touch.
In addition, I would have to rule that the winds and rain have no effect on the swarm because the only listed effect of the wind and rain is that it causes the target to take a -2 penalty on attack roll, where a swarm doesn't have an attack roll.
Thoughts???
It has a target not an effect, so the power would be useless against the little ankle-biters.
Remember, roleplaying games aren't completely in line with historical accuracy.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can anyone explain the rash of 4+ year old necro's lately?
Since
a) some problems are regularly rediscovered by new peopleb) old threads don't really die unless they get locked
the new people simply graft themlves to the old threads dealing with their problem.