Thunk the Titan Mauler Half-giant, picks up a dagger.
That dagger is actually suited for a Gargantuan creature; it's ten feet long, and deals a mere 2d6, and takes Two hands just to wield (let alone Lift).
Point is Not that it deals the same damage of an appropriately sized Greatsword, with a ton more penalties;
Point is this: Can I wield that dagger One-handed, for an additional -2 penalty, thanks to Jotungrip?
if not, why is it Jotungrip allows me to wield a Greatsword one-handed, but not a larger sized Longsword?
If yes, please answer quickly! =D
Thunk the Titan Mauler Half-giant, picks up a dagger.
That dagger is actually suited for a Gargantuan creature; it's ten feet long, and deals a mere 2d6.
Point is Not that it deals the same damage of an appropriately sized Greatsword, with a ton more penalties;
Point is this: Can I wield that dagger One-handed, for an additional -2 penalty, thanks to Jotungrip?
if not, why is it Jotungrip allows me to wield a Greatsword one-handed, but not a larger sized Longsword?
If yes, please answer quickly! =D
Sadly no since it is not sized for your size and welcome to the failing of titan mauler.
if not, why is it Jotungrip allows me to wield a Greatsword one-handed, but not a larger sized Longsword?
If yes, please answer quickly! =D
Because that is how Jotungrip works, unfortunately it is lacking.
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Sadly no since it is not sized for your size and welcome to the failing of titan mauler.
So it's true then? If I'm a Medium sized creature, wielding a Greatsword, I can wield that One-handed... but if it's even a Club, suited for a Large creature ( which is Normally wielded as a twohanded weapon by a Medium creature )... I can't use it One-handed, with a total penalty of -4?
So it's true then? If I'm a Medium sized creature, wielding a Greatsword, I can wield that One-handed... but if it's even a Club, suited for a Large creature ( which is Normally wielded as a twohanded weapon by a Medium creature )... I can't use it One-handed, with a total penalty of -4?Sadly no since it is not sized for your size and welcome to the failing of titan mauler.
Nope.
Nope.
Any idea why not, or which FAQs touched upon it?
Any idea why not, or which FAQs touched upon it?
Nope.
As I explained above (in my first post) jotungrip does not apply. The weapon is not appropriately sized for your character, thus you can't use Jotungrip.
As I explained above (in my first post) jotungrip does not apply. The weapon is not appropriately sized for your character, thus you can't use Jotungrip.
...That definitely satisfies any need for RAW clarification (thank you)... but wasn't my point. It just seems rather ludicrous to me, personally, as the difference between a Medium-sized Greatsword and a Large-sized Longsword seems negligible. So I'm sure it's bound to have come up in some form of FAQ or other thread...
Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?
No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.
Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."
—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 10/13/11
Does this help? The Archetype seems like it got nerfed and is now effictivly useless to most players after Jotungrip.
Does this help? The Archetype seems like it got nerfed and is now effictivly useless to most players after Jotungrip.
Yeah, I read that, but was Actually slightly confused by the wording, ergo why I posed the question here;
Wielding a Large-sized Two-handed weapon as a One-hander would indisputably yield a 'No'. But that doesn't specify what happens when wielding a Large-sized One-handed weapon. Which translates to a Medium sized Two-handed weapon (-2 to attack rolls).
And the Jotungrip does Not allow one to use oversized weapons that normally cannot be used; It only grants the ability to wield ones you Can use, two-handed, in One hand. It grants the ability to wield ones you can Already use, more effectively.
There you go. Question answered.
...But then it all falls back to the description of Jotungrip itself. And that "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her" excerpt screws the Whole thing up.
Therefore No. RAW says otherwise.
I think I'll propose a few little home-made rules to the GM, since the RAW doesn't seem to allow it: Allow Jotungrip to work for weapons of larger categories, so long as the Penalty to Attack rolls is no more than 0 ( after being reduced by the Massive Weapons class ability ). I think that's a fair compromise.
Edit: Thank you for the prompt answers, guys.
Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?
No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."
—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 10/13/11
Thats the only line you need to read if that doesn't help nothing will.
Thats the only line you need to read if that doesn't help nothing will.
At this point, it's not a matter of 'needing help'. But thank you, Talon.
You can consider the original question a theoretical dispute instead; Does a large sized weapon, that Can be wielded by a medium creature (ex: a one handed Large longsword, wielded as a two-handed medium weapon), still count as a Non-appropriately sized weapon for the character.
The argument need not be pushed further than it has already; If the answer is indisputably "It still cannot be wielded one-handed", then the role of this thread as a Rules Subforum thread is done.
It is not appropriately sized. It would have to be a medium sized weapon. No large size weapon of any type can be used, it is simply not made for your race. While it can be "used" after a fashion it is simply not appropriately sized for your race.
It is not appropriately sized. It would have to be a medium sized weapon. No large size weapon of any type can be used, it is simply not made for your race. While it can be "used" after a fashion it is simply not appropriately sized for your race.
Aye, thank you.
I'll still propose the home-rules I mentioned above to my GM; In my opinion, there would be no difference between a two-handed medium sized sword, and a sword wielded as a two-handed medium sized sword without penalty.
Upon further reflection, I'd assume that's the reason Why the RAW for Jotungrip does not allow this situation; Because it is not designed for one my size, which is reflected in the -2 to attack rolls.
Also, I'm sure some clever chipmunk out there found a way to convince their GM that (if there were No set cap), a player could effectively wield larger and larger weapons, since they would wield "large-sized Twohanded weapons, as one-handed weapons, and therefore could advance one size Higher at the cost of -2 to attack rolls..." and so on and so on... even though (with or without that cap), the rule only applies to weapons you'd be Able to wield two-handed in the first place...
Developers probably feared this confusion, and capped it off as it is now.
And, yes, I am just ranting at this point. ^_^
There would really be vast differences. weapon balance, grip, leanth of blade and so on. A dagger is ment to be used like a dagger, not used as a greatsword.
Imo its all about the grip or handle. A large size longsword may do the same damage as a med. greatsword but the grip would be too thick to be used, like swinging a sapling tree around.
I hate gettn ninja'd
There would really be vast differences. weapon balance, grip, leanth of blade and so on. A dagger is ment to be used like a dagger, not used as a greatsword.
By the house-rule I'm proposing, Massive Weapons basically takes care of that; I believe that those types of differences, which would normally cause the attack roll penalty, are Exactly what the Massive Weapons class ability helps a character overcome. Therefore, to a Titan Mauler, they Found a way to make a giant Dagger the effective equivalent of a greatsword. ^_^
Jotungrip would just be sacrificing their accuracy, by wielding the massive thing with a single arm. (...GM would probably call for strength checks every round. XD )
Edit: Me too, Sowde. Me too. ^_^
And alright, I can see that point. XD
I don't see the point, its a stabbing weapon. Just use greatswords and be done with it.
I don't see the point, its a stabbing weapon. Just use greatswords and be done with it.
The point is trying to create a synergy between two similar-themed skills:
A character, with training, is capable of wielding a Greatsword with just One hand. That thing already weighs a ton. the ability grants them the extraordinary ability to grip it effectively, despite this. They could Dual-wield greatswords, if they wanted to.
A character, with training, is capable of picking up a massive Dagger, and using it as effectively as a Greatsword. In fact, to that character, there's No difference between the two.
...The point is trying to mix the two together.
I'll be honest; I'm NOT looking to dual-wield gargantuan daggers here... It just seems rather pitiful that these two skills don't work together, and I'm not going to have a character that can skillfully show off their japanese-rpg-worthy ability to twirl around a gigantic blade with one hand.
...The point is trying to mix the two together.
I'll be honest; I'm NOT looking to dual-wield gargantuan daggers here... It just seems rather pitiful that these two skills don't work together, and I'm not going to have a character that can skillfully show off their japanese-rpg-worthy ability to twirl around a gigantic blade with one hand.
I think that there should be some synergy here and I have no idea what penalties Massive Weapons (ex) is referring to, as you wouldn't even be able to wield a gargantuan dagger in the firstplace without some more rules support.
That said it could (and probably should) be done. Hopefully, they'll clean up the titan mauler at some point to make the thing usable for what the descriptions says.
Until then, have a houserule fix.
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If your medium-sized character can wield Large weapons "as if they were appropriately sized" then they can use Jotungrip with them, because the weapon is considered appropriately sized.
I think I'll propose a few little home-made rules to the GM, since the RAW doesn't seem to allow it: Allow Jotungrip to work for weapons of larger categories, so long as the Penalty to Attack rolls is no more than 0 ( after being reduced by the Massive Weapons class ability ). I think that's a fair compromise.
If it helps, that's the option I just gave a Titan Mauler in the game I'm currently running (hasn't been in play long enough for me to tell you how it works out). There are also some unofficial suggestions from the archetype's author.
OK, so you're clear on the RAW and only looking for fluff to justify it?
Then think of it this way: that "gargantuan" dagger you proposed in the OP would have a hilt as big around as your character's thigh. Now, while somebody might, maybe, pick that in two hands by placing one hand on each side of that ridiculously large hilt, there is no way a normal sized person, even with Jotungrip, could ever wrap the fingers of one hand around such a gargantuan hilt to hold it.
The only hilts/handles/hafts of weapons you can wield with this ability are those that are appropriately sized for you because you need to wrap your fingers around them, specifically, the fingers of just one hand.
Or think of it like this: trying to hold that hilt would be like trying to palm a basketball. Sure, there are a few people in real life who can palm a basketball, but they cannot "grip" it - a child can knock it out of their hands because they're barely getting enough holding power to keep it from falling by its own mass, and if they tried to club someone with that palmed basketball, it would just fall out of their hands - and that's before you even try to consider the weight and leverage of making it out of metal and attaching a heavy blade to it.
Personally, I think it would have been more obvious if they called it "JotunLeverage" instead, implying that your hand isn't any bigger or any more able to hold larger/fatter/thicker weapons, but your leverage allows you to wield them almost as well as you could wield normal size weapons, as long as you can actually grip it - solidly - in the first place.