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Alright.... So my girlfriend and I are thinking of making a pair of barbarians for our next game. She's going to play a halfling titan mauler that will eventually wield anime sized swords. Why? Flavor, and it's that wacky kinda fun we at our group like to have... That in and of itself is quite within RAW from what I read on the Titan Mauler archetype of the barbarian....
HOWEVER. My question pertains to the idea that I was having while perusing my race and archetype choices... And I got the completely mental idea to play an Elven Titan Mauler Barbarian.... Who used extremely large composite bows and arrows. Effectively this elf would be firing off Large, and eventualy Huge (I'm not sure how massive the penalties would be for Gargantuan) bows and arrows, with ALL of that strength bonus from rage.
Now, the question popped into my head... Despite the fact that RAW only says, and I quote off d20pfsrd.com...
"Massive Weapons (Ex)
At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).
This ability replaces trap sense."
The rules state
"Weapon Size
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all. "
So, exactly at what point does a Titan Mauler's titanic weapons get too big for them to wield? And where to ranged weapons fit into the Titan Mauler? Yes, I'm fairly certain the spirit of the class is designed around melee weaponry, but I'm fairly certain I can't be the only person who thought of using over-sized ranged weaponry....
Also, not sure if it helps matters, but Titan Maulers also get:
" Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge. "
I realize that in home games our DM can rule this however he wants (like letting the halfling wield a gargantuan greatsword with a massive penalty), but I'm curious to know the specifics in case we want to take these characters to some of our other friends games (if they ever have a free slot or two), or a Pathfinder Society game. IE: What the BASE rules are.
Edit: Italicized for rules references.
Sadly this won't help.
Jotungrip will not allow you to use a weapon sized for a larger race then you. So you can use a greatsword, but not a large longsword.
And the massive weapon thing, unless it reads different then what I am seeing you can't use a longbow made for a size larger then yourself. Massive weapon does not allow you to side step the size. Its a two handed weapon which means it would move up, the rules may allow it if you have 4 hands, but other then that, not gonna happen.
At this point I suspected the whole thing with the ranged weapons.. However, I'm also now interested how the rules were intended with the titan mauler.
Honestly I am not sure on the intent. I feel it was not meant to break the size limits. If it stacked with Jotungrip it would be a bit less of an issue however as it would allow large one handed weapons in one hand.
Alright, this raises another question that just hit me.
Say you have a halfling titan mauler. To wield a med 1H it becomes 2H... While a Large light weapon becomes 2h.... What happens when you wield a light weapon 2 sizes larger than you (effectively making it a two handed weapon)? Does it still count as a Light weapon for feat purposes?
No, as for you it is not a light weapon. I could be wrong here ( Its never came up) but that is how I would rule it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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| 51 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly I am not sure on the intent. I feel it was not meant to break the size limits. If it stacked with Jotungrip it would be a bit less of an issue however as it would allow large one handed weapons in one hand.
The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
the abilities allow a medium character to wield a huge shortsword two handed as a two handed weapon with, eventually, no penalty
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the abilities allow a medium character to wield a huge shortsword two handed as a two handed weapon with, eventually, no penalty
Which is exactly the same as a medium greatsword except you used class abilities to pay for it.
The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
There was an FAQ
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1it made the class archetype worse by nixing the only way around its gimpliness by nerfing ranged weapons completely out of the class. I had high hopes for this archetype but its worthless imo.
/grumble
The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
Interesting. I stand corrected then. What kind of wording would you have put in place?
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What you're basically looking for is 3.5's Monkey Grip feat/Strongarm Bracers.
To my knowledge, Pathfinder doesn't have anything that duplicates that effect yet, and in fact, they may be expressly avoiding it due to how often it used to be abused.
If you're in a campaign that still allows all that old stuff, then yeah, Monkey Grip + Lead Blades + Large Platinum Fullblade = GM tears.
Well, I could be reading things wrong, but it seems to me that since you can now wield a great sword (a medium weapon) as a one handed weapon, you should be able to wield a large great sword as a two handed weapon by taking the size penalties (which would be reduced by massive weapons). That's actually a build I made with a Druid 4, Barbarian X with shaping focus taken twice who became a huge raging treant wielding a gargantuan greatsword two-handed for something like 4d8 base weapon dmg (calculated in combat manager). Another variant of this used the Hulking Hurler rage power tree to hurl gargantuan objects for a touch attack 1/rnd at something like 8d6, but with a ref for half (damn monks and rogues).
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I believe this thread could interest you, and make you understand how wielding an oversized weapon is handled by the rules.
What kind of wording would you have put in place?The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
I second that. If you're willing, Jason, I'd love to hear what the RAI were for this class. (Then I can break the rules and run it that way!)
Also, I'm fairly certain you've made pretty much all the cool stuff in recent books. APG archetypes, UC stuff. You should have an official list when people click your name or something.
This topic was discussed a lot of times (I started a thread on it, and I was not the first ^_^).
Why this happens?
Because everyone that read at this archetype, first think: "what does this means?". And then "If you can't wield bigger weapon, why this archetype should exist?".
It's sad to tell, but even if I like PF a lot, there are again too many feats and SA that don't deserve the paper on wich they are printed.
there are again too many feats
HERESY
and SA that don't deserve the paper on wich they are printed.
Not sure what SA means. But the more content, the better. Even if someone broke the class during translation or editing, it still gives you ideas, and you can fairly easily make house rules to make it work like you want.
So the totem barbarian (for example) doesn't mean anything, that's tragic, but it can give you some ideas to make it work. Sure the later books could use more proofreading, but it's still far better than the other options.
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All you would need to do to fix this one is this
Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.The is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. If a weapon would normally be to large to use,such as a large twohanded weapon, she may still use it two handed with the normal penalties for inappropriately sized weapons.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Honestly I am not sure on the intent. I feel it was not meant to break the size limits. If it stacked with Jotungrip it would be a bit less of an issue however as it would allow large one handed weapons in one hand.The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
Any update on this?
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Any update on this?
Nope. No FAQ yet. Your best bet if you have the right to houserule (which shouldn't be a problem when the intent is only to make a class do what's it's supposed to do) is this revisited version of the Titan Mauler.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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| 58 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 97 people marked this as a favorite. |
Any update on this?Honestly I am not sure on the intent. I feel it was not meant to break the size limits. If it stacked with Jotungrip it would be a bit less of an issue however as it would allow large one handed weapons in one hand.The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
Sorry, my message board coverage is a little spotty lately, as I am banging away on an upcoming AP adventure and the deadline is looming. My short and wholly unofficial answer is that I'd probably leave the Jotungrip ability as is, since that ability is really more about using a regular TH weapon in one hand than using overly large weapons. However, the Massive Weapons ability is the one I'd probably change, to read like this:
I think using a hunormous sword or throwing a giganticulous spear fits the theme of the titan mauler. Walking around with a cannon or ballista or tree-sized bow? Not so much. YMMV.
If you want something simpler and a bit more similar to the as-printed rule, you could also try:
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yay
This has a peculiar effect on light weapons of larger sizes. Normally, a medium creature can wield a large shortsword as a one-handed weapon. A titan mauler, however, always treats such weapons as two-handed weapons. Should that be an optional ability?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This has a peculiar effect on light weapons of larger sizes. Normally, a medium creature can wield a large shortsword as a one-handed weapon. A titan mauler, however, always treats such weapons as two-handed weapons. Should that be an optional ability?
Eh, it could be. I figured it was simpler to just give one rule for ALL oversized weapons than to start making exceptions. Besides, the thematics of the Titan Mauler are more about BIG guy wielding a BIG weapon... as in, a giant's hunormous sword or greataxe or whatever.
A Titan Mauler might consider it beneath his dignity to do anything other than go two-handed all out!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What kind of wording would you have put in place?The intent WAS to break the size limits, but I forgot to address the existing rule on oversized weapons and so the RAW ends up with an ability that is not very useful. Mark it as a FAQ question and perhaps at some point SKR, SRM, or JB will issue an official errata clarifying the issue from a RAW perspective.
I second that. If you're willing, Jason, I'd love to hear what the RAI were for this class. (Then I can break the rules and run it that way!)
Also, I'm fairly certain you've made pretty much all the cool stuff in recent books. APG archetypes, UC stuff. You should have an official list when people click your name or something.
Aw, listen ta you, I'm blushing. It would take a long while to list all the stuff, but I did recently post a list of the products I've written or coauthored. It's over on one of the Superstar threads here.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Wut, awesome official clarification is awesome \o/
Ah, but "official" clarification is NOT truly official. Only SRM/SKR/JB issue those. I can tell you only what was in my head as I was writing the rule, and how I'd write it differently in retrospect. But, if you like the RAI rule, by all means use it... :)
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I don't care too much about what the game developers say when the archetype developer himself says how it was intended to be. ;)
I added a link to your RAI correction in my Archetypes compilation, so people interested on the matter or not having seen it yet in their book may be warned about it.
Awesome, just awesome. That is defenintly what i was expecting the Titan Mauler to be able to do. thanks for posting the RAI. my group will defenitnly use those instead.
I know I'm digging up an old post, but this is how my group interrupted the the RAI before reading the "unofficial" correction from Jason. Has there been any headway to getting an official update to the rules?
There has been no official update.
Roanark, gotta say, thanks for drudging this old thread up. I completely forgot about it a day or so after I started it, and completely missed all of Jason's subsequent comments on the original intent of the class.
I think, for the sake of this archetype, I shall bump this and ask people for more FAQ clicks. See if we can't get this class fixed to be how it was meant to be!
Presumably, if you're doing this, you're a strength-based character, which means your carrying capacity becomes absurd...
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Alright lets look at this now that I have seen the rules. Seems like the weight of something is doubled for every size category larger than medium.
So, our theoretical Titan Mauler wants to wield a colossal greatsword. At large it weighs 16 lbs, 32 at huge, 64 at gargantuan and 128 at colossal.
At a strength of 19 and lower the weapon in and of itself constitutes a medium load. This doesn't include armor and other stuff. You're likely to always be at medium load for nothing else other than just armor and weapon.
Keep this in mind though.. A medium sized character will get to use a large greatsword at 6th level with no penalty, a huge greatsword at 12th level with no penalty and a gargantuan greatsword at 18th level with no penalty. By the time you're using gargantuan weapons without breaking a sweat, your strength better be in the mid to upper 20's if not even into the 30's.
I hit FAQ.
I had noticed this issue before and sorta subconsciously house ruled it. It has never come up in my games as no one expressed a desire to play it. However, I do appreciate the input from the original designer. I also agree with Maxximilius that in situations like this I care more about what the designer's input is on their RAI rather than what the developers interpretted it and changed it to be in editing. I respect both opinions and understand the different perspectives on such things though. Also, sometimes simple wording issues fall through the cracks. Not sure which happened here but I'm just happy it is getting positive attention.
I'm going to ask this here because it appears to be the titan mauler thread with the most answers in it, how do Titanic Rage and Tireless Rage interact with each other, as Titanic leaves you exhausted instead of fatigued and Tireless leaves you normal instead of fatigued...? Do they cancel each other out and you get the enlarge with just a fatigue at the end or does tireless effectively wipe the exhaustion too?
OK sorry for necroposting but:
1. Tireless Rage should reduce the exhausted to fatigued IIRC based ere d on R.A.W.
2. Why not add this line from a GM home rulings forum: Massive Weapons amendment when a weapons penalties are reduced to 0 it counts as being appropriately sized to the Titan Mauler. And thus may be used with the Jotungrip. But still require the same amount of effort as weilding an oversized weapon.
Sadly still no FAQ on this one. Still hoping it will get noticed... wink, wink, nudge, nudge
Am I the only one that thinks the new wording is completely insane?
I mean, I realize the old one was worthless. But I assumed the intent was to let you just use weapons one size too big.
With the new wording, by the time you're level 12 you can be wielding a colossal greatsword. That means your weapon is about 8x the size of it's wielder.
I like to Guts/Cloud it up as much as the next guy. But that's rocketing right past that into Pantherlily territory.
Am I the only one that thinks the new wording is completely insane?
I mean, I realize the old one was worthless. But I assumed the intent was to let you just use weapons one size too big.
With the new wording, by the time you're level 12 you can be wielding a colossal greatsword. That means your weapon is about 8x the size of it's wielder.
I like to Guts/Cloud it up as much as the next guy. But that's rocketing right past that into Pantherlily territory.
What new wording? The PRD still shows this:
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
Which still limits usable weapons to those which are two-handed when adjusted for size (for each size up: light -> one-handed, one-handed -> two-handed, two-handed -> siege).
Am I the only one that thinks the new wording is completely insane?
I mean, I realize the old one was worthless. But I assumed the intent was to let you just use weapons one size too big.
With the new wording, by the time you're level 12 you can be wielding a colossal greatsword. That means your weapon is about 8x the size of it's wielder.
I like to Guts/Cloud it up as much as the next guy. But that's rocketing right past that into Pantherlily territory.
What new wording? The PRD still shows this:
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.Which still limits usable weapons to those which are two-handed when adjusted for size (for each size up: light -> one-handed, one-handed -> two-handed, two-handed -> siege).
Give the devs some time to errata/FAQ it; it's not something they can just bring through over night, since adding that content adjusts many other things that we can't even begin to grasp.
The new wording was presented at some point in the thread by one of the poster's above (who is a developer for the Pathfinder game), so when you find it, that is the game/creator's original intent/ruling in regards to the class feature.
The new wording was presented at some point in the thread by one of the poster's above (who is a developer for the Pathfinder game), so when you find it, that is the game/creator's original intent/ruling in regards to the class feature.
I know. I thought the other poster was implying that there had been an official change, which as Jason himself pointed out, can come only from SRM/SKR/JB.
I know. I thought the other poster was implying that there had been an official change, which as Jason himself pointed out, can come only from SRM/SKR/JB.
I was merely referring to the new wording Jason was proposing. I realize nothing has officially changed yet.
I know. I thought the other poster was implying that there had been an official change, which as Jason himself pointed out, can come only from SRM/SKR/JB.I was merely referring to the new wording Jason was proposing. I realize nothing has officially changed yet.
Gotcha. I agree that there should be some limitation on the size difference between weapon and wielder. Either one or two max would probably be appropriate. Applying that to Jason's shorter description would work for me. Something like:
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What about HUGE?
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Follow me here... PCs can:
-2 attack penalty using a large one-handed weapon
-4 attack penalty using a large 2-handed weapon
A level 3 TM could use two hands to wield a large 1hd weapon at -1 penalty , no penalty at level 6
a level 6 TM could use two hands to wield a large 2hd weapon at -2 penalty, no penalty at level 12.
How do you handle "huge" weapons?
is a huge 1-hd weapon the same as a large 2hd weapon??
would the penalties on a huge 1hd weapon be -4 to attack or -6 (before the TM applies his bonus)
penalties on a huge 2hd weapon?
Bloodwort:
Medium PCs cannot use a large 2-handed weapon. They can use a large 1-handed weapon as a 2-handed weapon (with a -2penalty). The Titan Mauler class is supposed to be able to allow PCs to use large 2-handed weapons but currently does not.
Currently the following is true for a medium character:
A medium PC can use a Huge light weapon as a 2-handed weapon (-4penalty).
A medium PC can use a Large 1-handed weapon as a 2-handed weapon (-2penalty).
A medium PC can use a Medium 2-handed weapon as a 2-handed weapon (-0penalty).
So in the hands of a medium character we have:
Huge Short Sword = 2d6, -4attack, 2hands to use.
Large Long Sword = 2d6, -2attack, 2hands to use.
Greatsword = 2d6, -0attack, 2hands to use.
IE: there is no real reason to use large or huge weapons the way the rules are currently written with one exception: Large Bastard Sword.
That one exception is 2d8 -2attack, 2hands to use and requires the exotic weapon proficiency feat. However, you are getting a small damage increase for a large attack decrease. It is not worth it.
Titan Mauler as currently written does NOT change any of this except the attack penalties.
- Gauss
