More to the point, it's just weird, in my opinion, for elves not to sleep, and so in Golarion, they do indeed sleep. I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!
Thank you! I was never that fond of the unsleeping thing.
For similar reasons (makes 'em too weird & alien), elves in any of my campaigns don't take a century to physically mature.
Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.
Thank you for this extremely useful contribution.
Then we look at the rules for preparing spells, where on page 218 we spell out that a character needs 8 hours of restful sleep to prepare spells.
Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Spellcasters DO need rest, but not necessarily sleep. After all, not all spellcasters (like liches) sleep.
My mystic theurge could, by RAW, stay up 24/7 using lesser restoration to keep from getting tired each day. He would still need to have an 8 hour relaxation period to relax his "mental fatigue" and prepare spells, but nobody would ever catch him with his eyes closed if he didn't want them to.
Creative Director
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Then we look at the rules for preparing spells, where on page 218 we spell out that a character needs 8 hours of restful sleep to prepare spells.Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Spellcasters DO need rest, but not necessarily sleep. After all, not all spellcasters (like liches) sleep.
My mystic theurge could, by RAW, stay up 24/7 using lesser restoration to keep from getting tired each day. He would still need to have an 8 hour relaxation period to relax his "mental fatigue" and prepare spells, but nobody would ever catch him with his eyes closed if he didn't want them to.
Semantics strikes again!
In the majority of cases, "rest" equals "sleep." And even if it doesn't, for the purposes of this discussion, it does.
Semantics strikes again!
It always does around here...
And what of Oracles with the lame curse, who are immune to fatigue, and later Exhaustion?
...actually the idea of an Oracle who is unsleeping due to the gods' shenanigans is pretty cool.
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Pathfinder AP #10 "A History of Ashes" have a section that is relevant to this; At one point the PCs are forced to stay awake for more than 24 hours, and the module says "Furthermore, once the PCs head into the second day, they are operating on no sleep and become fatigued".
I think that's as close to written rules on the effects of not sleeping you'll get (even though that was a 3.5 adventure).
Then we look at the rules for preparing spells, where on page 218 we spell out that a character needs 8 hours of restful sleep to prepare spells.Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Spellcasters DO need rest, but not necessarily sleep. After all, not all spellcasters (like liches) sleep.
My mystic theurge could, by RAW, stay up 24/7 using lesser restoration to keep from getting tired each day. He would still need to have an 8 hour relaxation period to relax his "mental fatigue" and prepare spells, but nobody would ever catch him with his eyes closed if he didn't want them to.
Semantics strikes again!
In the majority of cases, "rest" equals "sleep." And even if it doesn't, for the purposes of this discussion, it does.
I can't remember the last time I had 8 hours of sleep (I get along fine with a lot closer to 6); I'd make a terrible spell caster- never being able to prepare spells. :P
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I had a Paladin once who as part of her flavor didn't sleep. It was noted that her divine power kept her energized so that she didn't require rest unless she had to exhaust her power.
In game terms, she had the Mercy that removes fatigue. Once per day, whenever she would become fatigued from forced marches, or just not sleeping, she'd swift-action LoH and continue about her business. It led to some colorful commentary during the game.
Fighter: "Man, I'm beat. I could sleep for a week."
Paladin: "I haven't slept in...three months, I think."
Fighter: "..... O.o"
Sometimes, we don't bother putting rules in because hopefully the answers are obvious.
Foolish mortal. Don't you know who you are dealing with? :P
Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.Thank you for this extremely useful contribution.
Can't tell if that's gratitude or sarcasm :D lol. Oh internet...
Can't tell if that's gratitude or sarcasm :D lol. Oh internet...Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.Thank you for this extremely useful contribution.
Gratitude, really! I looked up the rule and intend to use it!
There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.
Beats the beach. Might be glamourous, but certainly prone to discomfort.
There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.Beats the beach. Might be glamourous, but certainly prone to discomfort.
And tables, those can tip or in one or two cases break.
Anyhow, I am with James here, I do not think they would have had beds, In FR I always ran with the idea "beds" where a thing they picked up from other races.
Once you have nice rugs or pillows to sit on you really do not need beds. why would they ever go past pillows or rugs to throw down for the very wounded?
I look at em like the Minbari did. The only time you are flat on your back is in death, so why would you ever invent something that made you lay flat?
If this means elves do it doggy,cowgirl or one of the dozen or so other ways that do not involve laying flat, eh it makes more sense really. They live longer and need to keep it interesting anyhow.
Gratitude, really! I looked up the rule and intend to use it!Can't tell if that's gratitude or sarcasm :D lol. Oh internet...Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.Thank you for this extremely useful contribution.
cool cool, glad I could help.
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In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.
ROFL common sense of biology...
commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s&+% just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
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commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s~*~ just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
Unless something specifically leads you to believe otherwise, there's no reason to assume things work different than the real world.
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Unless something specifically leads you to believe otherwise, there's no reason to assume things work different than the real world.
commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s~*~ just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
well besides the old saying "when you assume you make an ass out of u not me."
but common sense, which in its self is a flawed term, and logic still have no place in a world with dragons that shoot poison clouds and mages that make you fly through the air using a small doll tied to their wrist. if there is not rule for it, its up the gm, period. if he wants to rule it one way thats all there is to it that persons call, but until then you go off rules written.
and yes paizo you do have to do a better job describing how your rules, spells, feats, and class abilities work.
I was always happy with the 2nd ed 'Complete book of X' series where they made a couple of hundred page book on each race going into fine detail on everything from their sleeping habits and other matters of a similar nature. As lovely as these books were, there was a bit of a lack of 'oh wow' because by and large the races were fairly pedestrian, and other than the meditating elves and lovely flavour text all through the bookm there were no real surprises.
I am not sure we really need to revisit those over prescriptive days do we?
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but common sense, which in its self is a flawed term, and logic still have no place in a world with dragons that shoot poison clouds and mages that make you fly through the air using a small doll tied to their wrist. if there is not rule for it, its up the gm, period. if he wants to rule it one way thats all there is to it that persons call, but until then you go off rules written.
So, Nobody Poops?
ROFL common sense of biology...
commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s@&* just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
Dude. You are playing a human. A normal human ( before we add in magic anyhow) basics are assumed. We also assume they see in color ( the rules don't say) hear in the same spectrum we do ( Again RAW does not state this to be true) have the same range of taste we do ( Again the book left this out!) can eat the same types of food we do ( Yet another Missing rule), need to pee and go take a crap now and then ( Does not give us a table dammit.) And other things you are assumed to know because well I am taking it on faith you are in fact of the Human biological type ( I could be wrong here)
Dude. You are playing a human. A normal human ( before we add in magic anyhow) basics are assumed. We also assume they see in color ( the rules don't say) hear in the same spectrum we do ( Again RAW does not state this to be true) have the same range of taste we do ( Again the book left this out!) can eat the same types of food we do ( Yet another Missing rule), need to pee and go take a crap now and then ( Does not give us a table dammit.) And other things you are assumed to know because well I am taking it on faith you are in fact of the Human biological type ( I could be wrong here)ROFL common sense of biology...
commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s@&* just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
Actually, they imply that you see in colour under darkvision, as they call out that it is black and white, colours cannot be discerned.
Actually, they imply that you see in colour under darkvision, as they call out that it is black and white, colours cannot be discerned.
No,No that still an assumption as it gives no rule. Besides that only counts for the races with darkvision. So By RAW it seems only they get full color sight.
No,No that still an assumption as it gives no rule. Besides that only counts for the races with darkvision. So By RAW it seems only they get full color sight.
Actually, they imply that you see in colour under darkvision, as they call out that it is black and white, colours cannot be discerned.
I didn't say it was a rule, I said it was implied. Also, what about all the creature descriptions that include colours?
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Dude. You are playing a human. A normal human ( before we add in magic anyhow) basics are assumed. We also assume they see in color ( the rules don't say) hear in the same spectrum we do ( Again RAW does not state this to be true) have the same range of taste we do ( Again the book left this out!) can eat the same types of food we do ( Yet another Missing rule), need to pee and go take a crap now and then ( Does not give us a table dammit.) And other things you are assumed to know because well I am taking it on faith you are in fact of the Human biological type ( I could be wrong here)ROFL common sense of biology...
commons sense stats that people can live for 500 years? see perfectly in the dark, have immunities to sleep, or cast spells from bat s@&* just to name a few things. if you cant tell it pisses me off when people use "common sense" and "logic" as a basis for their argument.
i can actually tell you i have never roleplayed my character peeing, using color vision, describing how something tastes, i auto assume it taste good,i eat a " simple meal" for 5 copper with a discription of what that is in the CRB. now you're assuming that "human" is the same as a human in our world.
see in our world other "races" dont live for 500 years so we can assume that the "humans" in this game are not of the same evolutionary chain as we are. they are a human in name and nothing more.
IN 3.5 THEY WERN'T LAZY ON THIS elves only needed "4 hours of meditation" while humans needed 8 hours of sleep.
No,No that still an assumption as it gives no rule. Besides that only counts for the races with darkvision. So By RAW it seems only they get full color sight.
Actually, they imply that you see in colour under darkvision, as they call out that it is black and white, colours cannot be discerned.I didn't say it was a rule, I said it was implied. Also, what about all the creature descriptions that include colours?
I am obviously joking.
Maybe they carry cards. After all we would need to use the evil common sense or use a dreaded assumption in thinking"red or green" was the same color ( if it is in fact a color that after all is just one of those assumptions) of the red or green we use.
IN 3.5 THEY WERN'T LAZY ON THIS elves only needed "4 hours of meditation" while humans needed 8 hours of sleep.
It isn't lazy. Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of. If the race was alien sure that would be useful but there is always a base of information you are assumed to know in any game system.
The facts of human biology would be but one of them.
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IN 3.5 THEY WERN'T LAZY ON THIS elves only needed "4 hours of meditation" while humans needed 8 hours of sleep.It isn't lazy. Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of. If the race was alien sure that would be useful but there is always a base of information you are assumed to know in any game system.
The facts of human biology would be but one of them.
ohhhhhh.... so this need of sleep only applies to humans, i guess dwarves gnomes halflings elves half elves and half orcs all sit there and laugh at the human, who is the only race with a semblance to OUR biology, while he gets his teddy bear and blanky to sleep for the recommended 8 hours so hes not fatigued in the morning?
that logic is fail, and yet again your\'re assuming that these "humans" are the same as you and i.
i guarantee that no human beaing can clean and press half a ton, its not humanly possible. but my fighter with a natural 20 strength can... and that with no magic..
hey more proof that your logic of biology is fail.
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This is roughly how I would work it.
Sleep
After 16 hours of activity without rest and sleep, a character becomes fatigued until he has slept at least 6 hours.
After 20 hours of activity without rest and sleep, a character becomes exausted until he has slept at least 6 hours.
After 24 hours without sleep, a character becomes sleep deprived, until he has slept for at least 6 hours.
Sleep deprived
On first receiving the sleep deprived status, a character looses 1d3 wisdom and must make a willpower save (DC 10) or fall asleep(unless external factors are keeping him awake). After six hours, and every six hour their after this role, this role is made again, however the dice type is increased by one size, so at 30 and 36 hours without sleep , a character looses 1d4 and 1d6 wisdom respectively.
At 48 hours of wakefullness, a character muse make will save(DC 10) or gain a random insanity, which last until all wisdom damage is healed.
A character with the sleep deprived condition is considered to be fatigued until all wisdom damage is recovered.
IN 3.5 THEY WERN'T LAZY ON THIS elves only needed "4 hours of meditation" while humans needed 8 hours of sleep.It isn't lazy. Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of. If the race was alien sure that would be useful but there is always a base of information you are assumed to know in any game system.
The facts of human biology would be but one of them.
ohhhhhh.... so this need of sleep only applies to humans, i guess dwarves gnomes halflings elves half elves and half orcs all sit there and laugh at the human, who is the only race with a semblance to OUR biology, while he gets his teddy bear and blanky to sleep for the recommended 8 hours so hes not fatigued in the morning?
that logic is fail, and yet again your\'re assuming that these "humans" are the same as you and i.
i guarantee that no human beaing can clean and press half a ton, its not humanly possible. but my fighter with a natural 20 strength can... and that with no magic..
hey more proof that your logic of biology is fail.
How does a 20 str (with a heavy load of 400 lb.s) benchpress a ton (2000 lb.s)?
Also, record deadlift is 1015 lb.s (The upper end of a 27 str).EDIT: 23 strength, still impressive.
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How does a 20 str (with a heavy load of 400 lb.s) benchpress a ton (2000 lb.s)?
Also, record deadlift is 1015 lb.s (The upper end of a 27 str).
first off i didnt say "lift a ton" i said half ton. and 800 lbs is still to much for a human to clean and press.
"A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground"
the world record clean and press is 228KG thats about 500 lbs but my character can do 800 and i can role play him 5'3" 150 lbs? still fail logic if im reading this correct.
this is just a point backed up by proof that logic and the worst phrase ever created by man, common sense, has no place in a game with stat blocks and rules.
How does a 20 str (with a heavy load of 400 lb.s) benchpress a ton (2000 lb.s)?
Also, record deadlift is 1015 lb.s (The upper end of a 27 str).first off i didnt say "lift a ton" i said half ton. and 800 lbs is still to much for a human to clean and press.
"A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground"
the world record clean and press is 228KG thats about 500 lbs but my character can do 800 and i can role play him 5'3" 150 lbs? still fail logic if im reading this correct.
this is just a point backed up by proof that logic and the worst phrase ever created by man, common sense, has no place in a game with stat blocks and rules.
my mistake on the half ton. But my point still stands on the dead lift. Also, the bench press record is 1070, and the squat is over 1260 (1263?).
This demonstrates a str of at least 23.|
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my mistake on the half ton. But my point still stands on the dead lift. Also, the bench press record is 1070, and the squat is over 1260 (1263?).
This demonstrates a str of at least 23.
and im pretty sure you're not looking at olympic records, because many record have been set using synthetic steroids... which don't exist in pathfinder.
and im pretty sure you're not looking at olympic records, because many record have been set using synthetic steroids... which don't exist in pathfinder.
my mistake on the half ton. But my point still stands on the dead lift. Also, the bench press record is 1070, and the squat is over 1260 (1263?).
This demonstrates a str of at least 23.
I have been quoting acknowledged world record holders.
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Then we look at the rules for preparing spells, where on page 218 we spell out that a character needs 8 hours of restful sleep to prepare spells.Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Spellcasters DO need rest, but not necessarily sleep. After all, not all spellcasters (like liches) sleep.
My mystic theurge could, by RAW, stay up 24/7 using lesser restoration to keep from getting tired each day. He would still need to have an 8 hour relaxation period to relax his "mental fatigue" and prepare spells, but nobody would ever catch him with his eyes closed if he didn't want them to.
Semantics strikes again!
In the majority of cases, "rest" equals "sleep." And even if it doesn't, for the purposes of this discussion, it does.
I must add some more rule nitpicking: only arcane casters need to sleep/rest.
"A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells."
I think alchemists need to sleep/rest but I am not totally sure.
Divine spellcasters recovering their spells even if fatigued is a often forgotten advantage.
I must add some more rule nitpicking: only arcane casters need to sleep/rest."A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells."
I think alchemists need to sleep/rest but I am not totally sure.
Divine spellcasters recovering their spells even if fatigued is a often forgotten advantage.
I believe that's only Magus, Witch, and Wizard who need sleep, couldn't find anything on Alchemist, Bard, and Sorcerer.
I had a Paladin in group that would prepare and cast Lesser Restoration to remove the fatigue and stay up forever!!! DM ruled that would fly during adventures but to live out the rest of his days in such a way would be detrimental to his mental health
IN 3.5 THEY WERN'T LAZY ON THIS elves only needed "4 hours of meditation" while humans needed 8 hours of sleep.It isn't lazy. Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of. If the race was alien sure that would be useful but there is always a base of information you are assumed to know in any game system.
The facts of human biology would be but one of them.
ohhhhhh.... so this need of sleep only applies to humans, i guess dwarves gnomes halflings elves half elves and half orcs all sit there and laugh at the human, who is the only race with a semblance to OUR biology, while he gets his teddy bear and blanky to sleep for the recommended 8 hours so hes not fatigued in the morning?
that logic is fail, and yet again your\'re assuming that these "humans" are the same as you and i.
i guarantee that no human beaing can clean and press half a ton, its not humanly possible. but my fighter with a natural 20 strength can... and that with no magic..
hey more proof that your logic of biology is fail.
What else do need proof of? Maybe humans in golarion breath through their fingers so cutting a hand off will suffocate them. The rules don't say otherwise, right?
In short you are arguing for the sake of arguing unless you really need an advanced breakdown of a fantasy human in which case.....
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Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of.
Classy, as always.
Since you can read, perhaps you have a preferred solution from the many offered in this thread?
*Fatigued after 16 hours?
*Fatigued after 24 hours?
*Increasing difficulty Fort checks after a certain point to avoid fatigue / nonlethal damage (using starvation / dehydration as a precedent)? (I prefer this one. It fits precedent, and allows for some people to stay up longer than others (higher Con, better rolls), much like this 'human biology' of which you speak.).
Which of these solutions (or another I didn't list) is the 'obviously right one' that we should all have agreed on if we weren't all terribly stupid?
and im pretty sure you're not looking at olympic records, because many record have been set using synthetic steroids... which don't exist in pathfinder.
my mistake on the half ton. But my point still stands on the dead lift. Also, the bench press record is 1070, and the squat is over 1260 (1263?).
This demonstrates a str of at least 23.
where in the RAW does it say that PF hasn't got steroids?
Its not repeating redundant information someone old enough to read should have a grasp of.Classy, as always.
Since you can read, perhaps you have a preferred solution from the many offered in this thread?
*Fatigued after 16 hours?
*Fatigued after 24 hours?
*Increasing difficulty Fort checks after a certain point to avoid fatigue / nonlethal damage (using starvation / dehydration as a precedent)? (I prefer this one. It fits precedent, and allows for some people to stay up longer than others (higher Con, better rolls), much like this 'human biology' of which you speak.).
Which of these solutions (or another I didn't list) is the 'obviously right one' that we should all have agreed on if we weren't all terribly stupid?
Honestly man, sidekick is stating it needs listed that they sleep. Do you honestly think biological fact like the need to sleep needs listed in the race info? Unless the race is so different from human to have no base of assumed knowledge there is simply no need to repeat some info. You are also assumed to have an average reading level and intelligence to understand the rules and grasp some game concepts. Why is that any different at all?
As for the tired I make em start making fort checks after 18 hours.
ohhhhhh.... so this need of sleep only applies to humans, i guess dwarves gnomes halflings elves half elves and half orcs all sit there and laugh at the human, who is the only race with a semblance to OUR biology, while he gets his teddy bear and blanky to sleep for the recommended 8 hours so hes not fatigued in the morning?that logic is fail, and yet again your\'re assuming that these "humans" are the same as you and i.
i guarantee that no human beaing can clean and press half a ton, its not humanly possible. but my fighter with a natural 20 strength can... and that with no magic..
hey more proof that your logic of biology is fail.
Nope. More proof you like to argue and can't use a small bit of reason it is assumed you need to understand the rules. UNless it is stated elsewhere the races are pretty much assumed to work close to human.
If the game does not tell you X eats raw ore, pees oil and sleeps 4 hours a day then you can assume ( By using the basic knowledge you should have) that they are the same as the human norm.
All the relevant info is placed in the book in the relevant sections. Life spans are different, gnomes have a whole nother set of muscle groups ( they are the most alien) but they say nothing about sleep or eating you the default assumption would be they are more or less the same as human norms.
#.5 pointed out the difference in sleep for some races ( elves) but as pathfinder does not, then they sleep the same as human.
Also its been pointed out, you are wrong on human lifting, its been pointed out. At level 1 a human can only get a 20 in str ( and normally dumped int to be more or less mentally retarded which we also know makes some folks much stronger). At level 6 ( more or less the point you stop being a normal human) you can have 21 without magic. Now while 21 is damned impressive its still with in human limits.
Mmm, heart of the fields.