What are the Effects of not sleeping by RAW?


Rules Questions

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There has been an ongoing joke with our group that if you are not a spell caster you don't ever need to sleep.

As much as we look we can't seem to find rules that tell you when one is fatigued from lack of sleep.

So are there any rules in RAW that enforcing a sleeping schedule. Do characters need a full night of sleep in order to function the next day?


Their are none in PF.


Kierato wrote:
Their are none in PF.

This strange fact is what thwarted my attempt to write an homage to Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Mr. Green wrote:

There has been an ongoing joke with our group that if you are not a spell caster you don't ever need to sleep.

As much as we look we can't seem to find rules that tell you when one is fatigued from lack of sleep.

So are there any rules in RAW that enforcing a sleeping schedule. Do characters need a full night of sleep in order to function the next day?

I'll go one better.

Nowhere do the rules state that if you fall unconscious or die do you fall prone.

Sometimes, we don't bother putting rules in because hopefully the answers are obvious.

AKA: If you don't sleep, you become fatigued.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.

Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?


Kierato wrote:
Their are none in PF.

Well, its a way to gain hit points back.


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Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

There WAS a 3rd party book for 3.0 that covered getting pregnant strangely enough. I believe it was called The Book of Erotic Fantasy. WotC was not too pleased about it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

Unfortunately, how long one can go before needing to sleep - and how much that will affect you - is not a common sense thing.

Just out of people I know, there is a wide range of sleep requirements. Some can't get by without a full 8 hours every day, while others sleep a scant 3 or 4 hours a day or can even go 2 days without sleep without any apparent ill-effect.

The lack of rules for sleep also means there are no rules for falling asleep by accident or trying to stay awake when tired. I've had bad DMs house rule weird fortitude or will saves for falling asleep during a watch. Not sure how seasoned adventuring veterans keep falling asleep on watch.

Anyway, some sort of official rules for sleep would certainly have been nice (from my perspective, anyway).

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

The topic was Not Sleeping By RAW, and LazarX stated penalties. If they're by RAW, I'd like to see where, if they're not by RAW, then he was incorrect.

The fact that people need to sleep has nothing to do with wanting a rule for it.


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We have enough rules as is. Be a GM and make a call.


LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.

I swear there was something that explicitly said this in 3.5, but for the life of me I can't locate it now. This is how I've always done it, and the bulk of my gaming was done in 3.5. It might be that even 3.5 never completely addressed this. Though I do seem to remember there being a feat from some book that let you get less than eight hours and still not be fatigued.


James Jacobs wrote:
Mr. Green wrote:

There has been an ongoing joke with our group that if you are not a spell caster you don't ever need to sleep.

As much as we look we can't seem to find rules that tell you when one is fatigued from lack of sleep.

So are there any rules in RAW that enforcing a sleeping schedule. Do characters need a full night of sleep in order to function the next day?

I'll go one better.

Nowhere do the rules state that if you fall unconscious or die do you fall prone.

Sometimes, we don't bother putting rules in because hopefully the answers are obvious.

AKA: If you don't sleep, you become fatigued.

Falling prone when you die is common sense.

Not sleeping makes someone tired. That's common sense too.

What's not common sense is how it is reflected in game mechanic. Some people can stay up for three days, and get a fifth wind so to speak. Some people can barely keep their eyes open after a big dinner.

Yeah, we can use our own judgement when assigning fatigue due to a loss of sleep, but some firm rules would be better. Some people might argue that constitution should have a lot to do with it. Some people might argue that age should have a lot to do with it. Some people might argue that every person has a different level of sleep that's needed. But what people can't argue about is a firm rule. (They can call it dumb, they can house-rule otherwise, but they can't argue that the rule doesn't exist.)

So, firm rules make it easier for GM's to adjudicate for difficult players. Firm rules make it easier for players to know what to expect from GM's. Overall, rules are good. Firm rules keep friends from arguing at the gaming table. Firm rules keep the game moving.

Laughing at folks who want firm rules is poor form. Saying, "you should be able to figure it out yourself," is a matter of opinion that not all of your customers share.


MendedWall12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
I swear there was something that explicitly said this in 3.5, but for the life of me I can't locate it now. This is how I've always done it, and the bulk of my gaming was done in 3.5. It might be that even 3.5 never completely addressed this. Though I do seem to remember there being a feat from some book that let you get less than eight hours and still not be fatigued.

I think this was how environmental damage was done.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

Yea, something about eating a lot of food and a stork flying past with a burlap sack in its mouth.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
We have enough rules as is. Be a GM and make a call.

You're missing the point of the thread and I'm finished arguing with you.

~~~

Anyway, as others have said, a firm rule would be great. Haven't slept for 24 hours? Okay, make a will/fortitude save of some value that increases for every hour you stay up later.

What about when you just haven't slept enough? Is one hour enough for the seasoned adventurer, or do all adventurer's need their eight a day or they get cranky/fatigued?


MendedWall12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
I swear there was something that explicitly said this in 3.5, but for the life of me I can't locate it now. This is how I've always done it, and the bulk of my gaming was done in 3.5. It might be that even 3.5 never completely addressed this. Though I do seem to remember there being a feat from some book that let you get less than eight hours and still not be fatigued.

While you don't have to sleep, per se, you do need to rest.

3.5 SRD wrote:

Forced March

In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.

A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.

PRD wrote:

Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.

A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.

This applies to overland movement, but unless at least spend some time resting, you will eventually reach the point of having moved too far. Truly astounding heroes might be able to continue for days without suffering from fatigue, and then many more days without falling unconscious.

This is the closest thing, that I know of, to being forced to rest. However, rest does not mean sleep. You are never, by the rules, required to be considered asleep and unconscious.


Whale_Cancer wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

Unfortunately, how long one can go before needing to sleep - and how much that will affect you - is not a common sense thing.

Just out of people I know, there is a wide range of sleep requirements. Some can't get by without a full 8 hours every day, while others sleep a scant 3 or 4 hours a day or can even go 2 days without sleep without any apparent ill-effect.

The lack of rules for sleep also means there are no rules for falling asleep by accident or trying to stay awake when tired. I've had bad DMs house rule weird fortitude or will saves for falling asleep during a watch. Not sure how seasoned adventuring veterans keep falling asleep on watch.

Anyway, some sort of official rules for sleep would certainly have been nice (from my perspective, anyway).

There are a great many things about a heroic character that virtually ALL RPGs take for granted, if for no other reason than expediency. One of those is that we don't all worry terribly about whether Grognard the Barbarian or Utho the Wizard is more sleep-prone due to what time mommy used to put them to bed. You can play that level of detail, if it intrigues you, but you can't expect that level of detail in a published RPG. Where would it end? We'd end up counting moles on skin and worrying about which ones might be cancerous.

The other thing I think people here might be missing, is how to read the various conditions in the game, and what they mean when you read them right and take them together. Here's the one for fatigued:

Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

Here's the one for exhausted:

Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally
cause fatigue.

If you read the last sentence of the first one, you'll see what cures fatigue. You can then infer from that what causes fatigue. Now, consider what time Grognard woke up today. Assuming he did not wake up fatigued, count backward eight hours so you know when he hit the sack. Has he been marching and fighting all day since? Is it now his bedtime again? Is he still active? Then he's fatigued.

Now, if he sleeps in his armor or decides to stay up until his normal wake up time, or if he only gets six hours of sleep, and then decides to rage, he's exhausted.

It's sort of like being told what happens when a car runs out of gas. You don't need to be told to put gas in it. You know you have to because you know what happens when you don't.

Liberty's Edge

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Why are people still posting in this thread? James Jacobs (creative director of Pathfinder and frequent poster on these wonderful boards) already won an internet with his beautiful comment.

"no where in the rules does it say that a dead body falls prone". Just wonderful.


In the Carrion Hill module,

Spoiler:
Keeper Crove has stayed up for many days in a row, using a wand of lesser restoration on himself when he feels tired to remove the fatigued condition.

It was a nice touch.


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BARBARIAN NOTE THERE AM NOT RULES FOR SLEEPING.

ONLY RULES FOR WALKING TOO FAR, WHICH AM CAUSING D6 SUBDUAL DAMAGE, WHICH BARBARIAN AM ALSO IMMUNE TO AT LEVEL 6. INVULNERABLE RAGER AM BEST TYPE OF BARBARIAN.

AM ALSO RULES FOR NEEDING SLEEP IF AM SQUISHY CASTY.

SLEEP AM PROBABLY RAI, BUT PER RAW BARBARIAN NEVER SLEEP. AM ALL SMASH ALL TIME.


Cheapy wrote:

In the Carrion Hill module,

** spoiler omitted **

It was a nice touch.

Same for

Spoiler:
Cressida Kroft in CotCT.
Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Jo Bird wrote:
Laughing at folks who want firm rules is poor form. Saying, "you should be able to figure it out yourself," is a matter of opinion that not all of your customers share.

I'm not so sure that I was laughing at anyone other than us here at Paizo, honestly, for not spelling out things like "You fall down when you die," or "You need to sleep 8 hours a night or you are fatigued."

But these ARE relatively easy rules for a GM to house-rule in cases where they come into play.

If you're looking for something more "official," I would look at the rules for overland movement on page 171, where we DO say that a day represents 8 hours of travel time. Then we look at the rules for preparing spells, where on page 218 we spell out that a character needs 8 hours of restful sleep to prepare spells. That leaves 8 hours in each day for things like eating, playing, hobbies, adventuring, crafting items, whatever.

And that breakdown more or less matches pretty well with the typical work day—8 hours working, 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours personal time. So that breakdown passes the "logic/common sense test."

After that, we can basically say that you can operate for 16 hours without worry, but once you enter hour 17, you start getting tired. Easiest rule would be at hour 17 of constant awakeness, you automatically become fatigued, and if you're still awake after 24 hours, you become exhausted. Rules for "falling asleep while on watch" would basically become "Make a DC 10 Fortitude save each hour you try to remain awake while doing repetitive tasks or you fall asleep—this DC increases by +1 each hour."

Elves and half elves, I would say, would never risk falling asleep at watch, but would still become fatigued or exhausted at the same rate.


Did we just get an answer to the Sleep / Trance debate about elves?!


Bruunwald wrote:
You can play that level of detail, if it intrigues you, but you can't expect that level of detail in a published RPG. Where would it end? We'd end up counting moles on skin and worrying about which ones might be cancerous.

That's what we call a slippery slope. It's a fallacious argument. Because people want rules for the effects of not sleeping doesn't mean people want (or will have to get) rules for counting moles on skin. Fallacious.

James Jacobs wrote:
I'm not so sure that I was laughing at anyone other than us here at Paizo, honestly, for not spelling out things like "You fall down when you die," or "You need to sleep 8 hours a night or you are fatigued."

Fair enough, I suppose. I took it to mean that people who couldn't rule a simple situation like this on their own were, for lack of a better term, idiots.

Sorry I misinterpreted you, and happy that's not what you meant.


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Mergy wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
We have enough rules as is. Be a GM and make a call.

You're missing the point of the thread and I'm finished arguing with you.

No I see the point. I disagree with the idea you NEED hard rules for this. Whats next how often much you eat? How much do you need to eat? Rule for how often you need to pee? a rule saying a dead critter can take no action and does not heal as it is dead?

We simply do not need hard rules for this, the game is complex enough as it is. Its not a PC game and the GM will need to make calls on things like this.


Bruunwald wrote:
Whale_Cancer wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

Unfortunately, how long one can go before needing to sleep - and how much that will affect you - is not a common sense thing.

Just out of people I know, there is a wide range of sleep requirements. Some can't get by without a full 8 hours every day, while others sleep a scant 3 or 4 hours a day or can even go 2 days without sleep without any apparent ill-effect.

The lack of rules for sleep also means there are no rules for falling asleep by accident or trying to stay awake when tired. I've had bad DMs house rule weird fortitude or will saves for falling asleep during a watch. Not sure how seasoned adventuring veterans keep falling asleep on watch.

Anyway, some sort of official rules for sleep would certainly have been nice (from my perspective, anyway).

There are a great many things about a heroic character that virtually ALL RPGs take for granted, if for no other reason than expediency. One of those is that we don't all worry terribly about whether Grognard the Barbarian or Utho the Wizard is more sleep-prone due to what time mommy used to put them to bed. You can play that level of detail, if it intrigues you, but you can't expect that level of detail in a published RPG. Where would it end? We'd end up counting moles on skin and worrying about which ones might be cancerous.

The other thing I think people here might be missing, is how to read the various conditions in the game, and what they mean when you read them right and take them together. Here's the one for fatigued:

Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge...

You really think rules for how long one can stay awake and how much it affects you is equivalent to checking moles for potential cancerous growths? You either aren't arguing in good faith or are very confused (arguing slippery slope and all).

There are plenty of times where sleep can come into play. For instance, searching a large area for a lost comrade (partially covered by movement rules already), staying awake for extended periods of time when the party believes it may be attacked (such as when underground or on another plane of existence), or in a campaign about a militia unit being stretched too thin.

This game has rules for getting drunk. I don't see why we couldn't have a sidebar with something along the lines of "Characters usually need 8 hours of sleep a night to get a good nights sleep. For every hour less than 8 they sleep, they must make a fortitude check DC 10 + hours not slept. If they fail this check, they are fatigued. If they are already fatigued, they are exhausted. If they are already exhausted, they fall into a deep slumber. If forcibly awoken, they take 1d6 nonlethal damage and must make a fortitude save to stay awake whenever they are not active (i.e. doing something which would cause a staggered character to fall unconscious). The DC for not falling asleep is cumulative. It is reset once the character gets 8 hours of sleep."

Edit: these rules need only come into play when they are called for, just like the rules for getting drunk. This avoids rules bloat.

And that is just off the top of my head. I'm sure those rules could be easily improved. The problem with the current fatigue and exhaustion rules is that there is no way to enter those states by just not sleeping.

Some people like to play low fantasy games with pathfinder (there is a low fantasy character build option, after all) and there are certainly potential adventures that could be written (such as my aborted homage to Invasion of the Body Snatchers) which could use rules for sleep.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Cheapy wrote:
Did we just get an answer to the Sleep / Trance debate about elves?!

I've given that answer out a long time ago, actually.

Elves sleep in Pathfinder.

The "Trance" element is a Forgotten Realms construct, and as such is the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, so it's not something we can work with.

Furthermore, the notion of a race that never sleeps is actually really fundamentally incredibly totally alien. A race that doesn't sleep would have an INCREDIBLY different society than a human society, rather than a slightly different one which is what elves currently have.

I mean... If elves didn't sleep... then pretty much every map of an elven home that shows a bed is getting it wrong.

In any case, elves do indeed sleep. They're just quick to rouse from slumber, don't fall asleep unless they want to, and are immune to effects that force sleep.


James Jacobs wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Did we just get an answer to the Sleep / Trance debate about elves?!

I've given that answer out a long time ago, actually.

Elves sleep in Pathfinder.

The "Trance" element is a Forgotten Realms construct, and as such is the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, so it's not something we can work with.

Furthermore, the notion of a race that never sleeps is actually really fundamentally incredibly totally alien. A race that doesn't sleep would have an INCREDIBLY different society than a human society, rather than a slightly different one which is what elves currently have.

I mean... If elves didn't sleep... then pretty much every map of an elven home that shows a bed is getting it wrong.

In any case, elves do indeed sleep. They're just quick to rouse from slumber, don't fall asleep unless they want to, and are immune to effects that force sleep.

I can't agree with this, even without sleep beds would still serve a purpose. The sick would need to sit up or lie on the floor all the time. There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are no rules for weight gain ergo my character can eat infinite chocolate sundaes.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kierato wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Did we just get an answer to the Sleep / Trance debate about elves?!

I've given that answer out a long time ago, actually.

Elves sleep in Pathfinder.

The "Trance" element is a Forgotten Realms construct, and as such is the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, so it's not something we can work with.

Furthermore, the notion of a race that never sleeps is actually really fundamentally incredibly totally alien. A race that doesn't sleep would have an INCREDIBLY different society than a human society, rather than a slightly different one which is what elves currently have.

I mean... If elves didn't sleep... then pretty much every map of an elven home that shows a bed is getting it wrong.

In any case, elves do indeed sleep. They're just quick to rouse from slumber, don't fall asleep unless they want to, and are immune to effects that force sleep.

I can't agree with this, even without sleep beds would still serve a purpose. The sick would need to sit up or lie on the floor all the time. There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.

Why do you need a bed in order to have a stork deliver you a baby?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kierato wrote:
I can't agree with this, even without sleep beds would still serve a purpose. The sick would need to sit up or lie on the floor all the time. There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.

The point is... would a race that doesn't sleep even think of building something like a bed? I doubt it.

More to the point, it's just weird, in my opinion, for elves not to sleep, and so in Golarion, they do indeed sleep. I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
There are no rules for weight gain ergo my character can eat infinite chocolate sundaes.

Also no rules about when each Race must do a potty break...

I swear... my Dwarf should be able to hold off his urination waaay before that Weak bladder Elf doe...

Shadow Lodge

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
There are no rules for weight gain ergo my character can eat infinite chocolate sundaes.

There are no rules for tummyaches!


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In order, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Non-Lethal Damage, and forced Unconciousness.
Would you show me where that is in the Core Rulebook?

Why do they need rules for common sense fact of biology? There are also no rules for getting pregnant ( but we know how that happens) or no rules saying you can no longer take actions while you are dead.

If it RAW it ain't real. :)


I actually did not expect such a response from this post. But as too the use for needing to know sleep rules; well there are some great answers above.

Thanks to everyone for the above ideas, and thanks James for a good rule of thumb.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

James Jacobs wrote:
More to the point, it's just weird, in my opinion, for elves not to sleep, and so in Golarion, they do indeed sleep. I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!

<3 Paizo

My group always wondered where that rule went. Interesting to see why it wasn't included! I prefer having elves sleep as well but I do enjoy that they still have some "specialness" by being immune to forced/unwilling sleep. That's neat!


AM BARBARIAN wrote:

BARBARIAN NOTE THERE AM NOT RULES FOR SLEEPING.

ONLY RULES FOR WALKING TOO FAR, WHICH AM CAUSING D6 SUBDUAL DAMAGE, WHICH BARBARIAN AM ALSO IMMUNE TO AT LEVEL 6. INVULNERABLE RAGER AM BEST TYPE OF BARBARIAN.

AM ALSO RULES FOR NEEDING SLEEP IF AM SQUISHY CASTY.

SLEEP AM PROBABLY RAI, BUT PER RAW BARBARIAN NEVER SLEEP. AM ALL SMASH ALL TIME.

PRD wrote:
The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

you need some sleep if you wanna keep raging AM BARBARIAN

EDIT

Scratch that, Wizard says he needs sleep, barbarian just needs "rest"

Shadow Lodge

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People die when they are killed.


James Jacobs wrote:
I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!

Note to self, add world bending/meddling Over-deity T-Rex to next home brew setting.

Honesty though it would depend on morphology and the least disruptive positioning of limbs for mediation. It'd be bad if you got a cramp, or had a foot fall asleep ever time you mediated. The body positing that causes the least... um... feedback from body systems would dictate mediation furniture. Consodering elven bodies are fairly similar to humans, something like a Tempur-Pedic mattress or perhaps a neutral boinacey liquid bath would be perfered.

It could also depend on the rational behind the meditation, what are they meditating about? I could see masasicit Drow "meditating" on pain while being tortured or hung from a rack. Which could explain a few things about Drow domiciles actually.

On subject as Ashiel pointed out the overland travel rules a a good template if you need to extrapolate more concrete "sleep" rules. Actually the overland Hustle (which is a double move for a solid hour) is a better jumping off point for long running and sustained combat. If you've done nothing but Standard + Move (or full round) actions for an hour that should leave you fairly tuckered.

You have rules examples for what a Move, Standrad, and Full action is worth in terms of physical/mental activity.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Mergy wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
We have enough rules as is. Be a GM and make a call.

You're missing the point of the thread and I'm finished arguing with you.

No I see the point. I disagree with the idea you NEED hard rules for this. Whats next how often much you eat? How much do you need to eat? Rule for how often you need to pee? a rule saying a dead critter can take no action and does not heal as it is dead?

We simply do not need hard rules for this, the game is complex enough as it is. Its not a PC game and the GM will need to make calls on things like this.

Is my first step taken with my right or left leg? You're slacking dude.

Not directed at SS: In all seriousness though most people can not function well without normal rest. Even those of us who can stay up for days at a time become temperamental and our ability to do things correctly goes down.

That would count as fatigue, IMHO. It just seems easier to have everyone need to rest once per day than to create a new rule.


Mike Kimmel wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
More to the point, it's just weird, in my opinion, for elves not to sleep, and so in Golarion, they do indeed sleep. I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!

<3 Paizo

My group always wondered where that rule went. Interesting to see why it wasn't included! I prefer having elves sleep as well but I do enjoy that they still have some "specialness" by being immune to forced/unwilling sleep. That's neat!

Oh great, another imposter. :)


Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:


Furthermore, the notion of a race that never sleeps is actually really fundamentally incredibly totally alien. A race that doesn't sleep would have an INCREDIBLY different society than a human society, rather than a slightly different one which is what elves currently have.

I mean... If elves didn't sleep... then pretty much every map of an elven home that shows a bed is getting it wrong.

In any case, elves do indeed sleep. They're just quick to rouse from slumber, don't fall asleep unless they want to, and are immune to effects that force sleep.

I thought Elves were aliens being from Sovyrian? ;p


James Jacobs wrote:
Kierato wrote:
I can't agree with this, even without sleep beds would still serve a purpose. The sick would need to sit up or lie on the floor all the time. There is also the act of reproduction. Not impossible without a bed, though I'm sure it would be more comfortable.

The point is... would a race that doesn't sleep even think of building something like a bed? I doubt it.

More to the point, it's just weird, in my opinion, for elves not to sleep, and so in Golarion, they do indeed sleep. I has that kind of power! MWA HA HA HA HA!

The race can still be injured, if someone was unconscious, you would want to make them comfortable, cusions and blankets are brought together for that purpose, bed evolves from that. Not a bed identical to ours, but a raised area (out of drafts, easier to tend to, away from vermin) padded for comfort would be needed. They could also have taken the idea from humans or similar races.


Cibulan wrote:
Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.

That does not mean there is a need. Some rules are just nice options to have. One of the books has prices for renting and buying different house types. I don't think that was needed.

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Mr. Green wrote:

There has been an ongoing joke with our group that if you are not a spell caster you don't ever need to sleep.

As much as we look we can't seem to find rules that tell you when one is fatigued from lack of sleep.

So are there any rules in RAW that enforcing a sleeping schedule. Do characters need a full night of sleep in order to function the next day?

The closest thing you have are the rules under 'Additional Rules->Movement' for forced march. They could be used as a guideline for rules for going without sleep:

Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.

A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.


wraithstrike wrote:
Cibulan wrote:
Just skimmed the thread, sorry if this has been said already but there are "optional" rules for lack of sleep in book 2 of the Carrion Crown AP. That is kind of an admission by Paizo that there are no rules for it but there needed to be.
That does not mean there is a need. Some rules are just nice options to have. One of the books has prices for renting and buying different house types. I don't think that was needed.

Point taken. What I meant to say is that one of Paizo's writers (can't remember who wrote that book) recognized there were no rules (beyond common-sense house rules) for lack of sleep and felt there needed to be concrete consequences. In that book the players have like 3 days to do some investigations with time constraints and so not sleeping is a legitimate problem.


Where are my potty rules?! Or do races in Golarion not have bladders? I mean I know girls don't poo...I want some clarification on this issue immediately!

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