or take either of these:
Integrated: Many half-elves are skilled in the art of ingratiating themselves into a community as if they were natives. Half-elves with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on Bluff, Disguise, and Knowledge (local) checks. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.Sociable: Half-elves are skilled at charming others and recovering from faux pas. If half-elves with this racial trait attempt to change a creature’s attitude with a Diplomacy check and fail by 5 or more, they can try to influence the creature a second time even if 24 hours have not passed. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
|
Dragonborn was a +0 ECL template.
it gave +2 Constitution -2 Dexterity, and a draconic aspect (like wings for example) in exchange for giving up your racial traits that were not attribute modifiers.
it made Grey Elves into excellent Wizards and Wood Elves into excellent martials.
it wasn't as amazing for UA Snow Elves as it was for Grey Elf Wizards and Wood Elf Barbarians.
|
they don't get this in PF. it makes me a little sadwhat redeeming qualities do half elves get?
+2 diplomacy, rarely used outside of urban campaigns
I hated this because to me it was one of the most illogical things I ever saw. I mean if you were a mongrel, I think you'd struggle socially, have feelings and impulses the 'normals' around you don't have and probably see your human parent be old when you became an adult.
In a way, being a mongrel in a fantasy world sets you apart, rather like growing up with say, Asbergers or ADHD....only nobody around you knows how to treat it.
So they put that type of background and make them the social race? Sure, I could see some half elves turning out that way, but not all. I think every half elf finds their own way idiosyncratic way to deal with who they are.
That's why half elves and half orcs have always been my favorite races.
On using a bow as your bonded object:
Q: If you have a two-handed bonded weapon as a wizard can you let go of it with one had to cast spells and still be considered wielding it?A: (James Jacobs 3/8/10) An arcane bonded weapon must be wielded in order for it to have effect. This, unfortunately, does mean that two-handed weapons make for relatively poor bonded objects, since they'd limit your spellcasting to things without somatic components. Carrying a two-handed weapon in one hand isn't "wielding" it... you're just carrying it. You have to have both hands to cast spells with a two-handed weapon bonded object. [Source]
I'd think that would apply to a bow as well.
I'd say mechanically a +2 to any stats is probably a bit better than the +2/+2/-2 to fixed stats
That only holds true if the stat you take a negative on is more important than either of the stats that you get a bonus on. For instance, assuming you want a Dexy Ninja (prioritizing Dex > Cha > Con > Wis > Str = Int), going by ability scores alone (25 point buy):
Halfling:
Str: 11 (13 - 2)
Dex: 18 (16 + 2)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 16 (14 + 2)
Human:
Str: 13
Dex: 18 (16 + 2)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
I'd argue Halfling over Human in this case unless you insist on having Power Attack with a Ninja for some reason. Anyway, if both of your boosted stats are more important to your character than the penalized stat, it's a net gain for your character. Especially because racial modifiers to stats are the same regardless of how high they already are: making a 14 into an 16 costs extra 5 points in point buy, but it's free from a racial modifier. Likewise, increasing a stat to 12 to avoid having a penalty to the stat only costs 2. Mathematically, the more good racial bonuses you get, the better. Even if you take a penalty to another stat.
Also, as I said before, Dex > Con, so if you like Int an Elf is an awesome choice for a race.
This has been an amusing thread, but I have often wondered what people would play if all races were just descriptions. Same stats. Same number of feats etc, but you could choose the race you liked, but there were zero in game benefits or disadvantages of say Elf over Dwarf over Human or whatever
Well considering most of the optimizers play hoomans I would guess hoomans.
You know, I'm pretty convinced that one day some alien civilization will find internet stuff like this and decide that elves were one of our ethnic groups.
KaeYoss = Chaos.
Spoilsport
what redeeming qualities do half elves get?
free skill focus, only good for either Perception or UMD. best traded for dual minded to maximize your will save.
Yeah, Skill Focus isn't the best thing, but it's not too bad, either. It certainly isn't "only good for either Perception or UMD." It may not be good min-maxing to get it, but it can still be nice to have.
Acrobatics can always use some more points - jump wider, have a better chance of tumbling past someone.
Stealth makes it less likely to be discovered.
Bluff makes your feints more likely.
And so on.
+2 to any stat, humans get this too.
That doesn't make it bad, though. In fact, it's quite neat, means you can support more or less every character concept.
+2 perception, this ability is handed out to several other races
So? Humans don't get it. And Perception is a very useful skill.
+2 diplomacy, rarely used outside of urban campaigns
Plus, they don't get this at all.
low light vision, so freely handed out, but i like the more freely handed out and more powerful darkvision better.
First of all, while low-light vision isn't quite as good as darkvision, it's better than regular vision, which is what humans get.
And, as far as core races are concerned, low-light vision is handed out more freely: 3 races get it (elves, half-elves and gnomes) while only 2 get darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs).
Whether thousands of monster races get it doesn't really matter to the player who considers a race for his next character.
I'm a man of many layers - like the OSI model (except that that's not a man).So you exist in theory only and break down in real world application?
The real world is for people who can't handle insanity.
No if you ask me Elves are one of the most annoying races I have seen when it comes to my buddy and mine's GMing style as we have lots of hidden doors/goodies in our maps.
Read up on the rules: Elves don't get an active roll to notice secret doors any more. Only dwarves have such an ability (stonecunning), which just goes to show that dwarves are annoying in all ways.
You know, I'm pretty convinced that one day some alien civilization will find internet stuff like this and decide that elves were one of our ethnic groups.
Nah. They'll watch our TV, see a reality show and instantly determine that our race is only fit for annihilation.
Seriously: 90% of Sci-Fi already predicts that. Why do you think all those alien races in those stories keep wiping out mankind? They play in the future, when probably 100% or more of TV consists of reality shows.
But if any aliens should read this before watching our TV: Yes, mankind belongs eradicated. Contact me. I'll help.
The real world is for people who can't handle insanity.
I don't think that's right -- fantasy worlds (which most people live in) are for the sane.
|
Doesn't that interfere with somatic spells because you have to wield it with two hands?If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell.
I would say they can cast it freely just so long as the spell doesn't say they need both hands. as the bow is still wielded just not ready in the traditional sense.
Read up on the rules: Elves don't get an active roll to notice secret doors any more. Only dwarves have such an ability (stonecunning), which just goes to show that dwarves are annoying in all ways.
Not that I'll disagree with the dwarf statement but... I'm looking at page 414 of my CRB and at the end of the first paragraph under Secret Doors it states: "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking in an area."
Was this removed in an errata? O_o;
Read up on the rules: Elves don't get an active roll to notice secret doors any more. Only dwarves have such an ability (stonecunning), which just goes to show that dwarves are annoying in all ways.Not that I'll disagree with the dwarf statement but... I'm looking at page 414 of my CRB and at the end of the first paragraph under Secret Doors it states: "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking in an area."
Was this removed in an errata? O_o;
I believe that is a typo, as it is exempt from the PRD.
Yeah I just downloaded all the errata and found it. Wow, what a perfectly fitting end to an absolutely s$&#ty f&$+ing week. Glad there's a Rogue talent for this now. >.>
|
|
OMG, dude, Elves are great for LOTS of characters!
Want an effiminate PC?
. . . . Elf!Want to play an arrogant, self-righteous, effete snob?
. . . . Elf is the answer.How 'bout a PC who thinks that living to be a million years old and yet having a naturally weak CON score makes sense?
. . . . You know the Race to play.All in all, Elves are a great choice for anyone who wants to play a member of a race full of whiney, good-for-nothing, think-they-created-magic, pretend they're better than everyone else cuz they remember Sauron when he was here last but were too pathetic to really stop him and now crying for humans and dwarves (Real races) to save their lame-ass selves and now, 1000 years later are begging for help again all the while being dicks cuz they remember from last time even though no one else gives a damn.
That's the Elf.
Besides the age and LotR reference ... this can easily be said about humans too, especially in our current day and age. We're bridging the race gap!
Hell some of us cross into dwarf territory too by drinking too much and smelling something fierce! We're so well rounded :D
Nah. They'll watch our TV, see a reality show and instantly determine that our race is only fit for annihilation.
Seriously: 90% of Sci-Fi already predicts that. Why do you think all those alien races in those stories keep wiping out mankind? They play in the future, when probably 100% or more of TV consists of reality shows.
Because if they would do anything else, you would have to come up with a plot instead of explosions.
And that's really hard, man!
Nah. They'll watch our TV, see a reality show and instantly determine that our race is only fit for annihilation.
Seriously: 90% of Sci-Fi already predicts that. Why do you think all those alien races in those stories keep wiping out mankind? They play in the future, when probably 100% or more of TV consists of reality shows.
Because if they would do anything else, you would have to come up with a plot instead of explosions.
And that's really hard, man!
Hence the reality shows...
|
|
Kae Yoss claims that low-light vision is not as good as darkvision; I disagree. In our campaign, most of the action takes place outdoors. At disk the elves in the group see better than the dwarf (me) or the half-orc. Sometimes darkvision is more useful, sometimes low-light vision is more useful. It just depends on the situation.
I'd be surprised if anyone loves dwarves considering their penalty to Charisma. :P
I like dwarves so much, I named a game after them.
I'd be surprised if anyone loves dwarves considering their penalty to Charisma. :P
Is it "Disgusting Vermin - The Game"?
WHAT GOOD IS THE ELF?If you wait till the right season they taste good with pickels.
Orcs are considered to have a crude culture, but their greatest chefs know the worth of the elf as an ingredient.
They are also good at being predictable, favouring archery or spellcasting typically. Good opponents, because if they are repetitive and predictable, wins can come easier.
Good to compete against in long distance running.
Good for holding all the earring treasure that is found, until you get back to town.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alot of the fluff is around. The elf could be given almost all the fluff translated into racial bonuses. However, the level adjustment for that is not going to be zero. It would be at least three. There is a difference between novel literature and game literature. Balance has to be observed. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
That's right! I've forgotten what elves are actually best for, to mock a lot of what is essentially elven, and that which elves presume to be great at. They are good for contesting their greatness.
So if it is history, you test their knowledge.
Didn't put many ranks in? Fail, hearing some hearsay while high on leaf-dope does not count as knowledge.
If gardening, go and check their garden, see their gardening accomplishments.
Oh that has been neglected as well? You didn't put ranks in gardening mr elf? No skill focus? But you elves are renowned for being self-sufficient farmers. A committed commoner will blitz them in the ring of tomatoes.
Swordplay, playful fencing?
Very well, spar against this fighter toughened by killing serious foes. He won't tire easily, his sword-skills are his life, he does not come from a leisure society where swordplay is playful.
Spellcasting, now this is a more tricky contest. Elves can be very good at it. But one should insist, out of fairness, that since elves value age and experience, all contenders be of the same age. So a fifty year old veteran human wizard must be compared to a fifty year old near elven child with his latest interest in magic (but no actual levels, sorry, many decades away from first level). Why are these great people waiting so long to get good?
If a foul is called, and they insist discounting years, all contenders should be in their prime, age doesn't matter, very well, the 150 year old wizard protege can face off against the 150 year old lich.
Lich: In a raspy voice "Hellooo, my naaame is Waaaally the daaaamned".
Envoy in the spell Olympics: "Very good Wally, thank you for coming out of retirement, may I recommend spells focusing on fortitude?
Lich: "Goooood, yess, goooood".
Crafting, poetry the arts.
All good sources of contest. Pit generalist elves with their arrogance and belief in cultural superiority against real specialists. The skill in poetry won't be the same, the crafmanship will be off. You can fap about for decades, but got to be really driven to be good. Fluff is not ability.
That's right! I've forgotten what elves are actually best for, to mock a lot of what is essentially elven, and that which elves presume to be great at. They are good for contesting their greatness.
So if it is history, you test their knowledge.
Didn't put many ranks in? Fail, hearing some hearsay while high on leaf-dope does not count as knowledge.If gardening, go and check their garden, see their gardening accomplishments.
Oh that has been neglected as well? You didn't put ranks in gardening mr elf? No skill focus? But you elves are renowned for being self-sufficient farmers. A committed commoner will blitz them in the ring of tomatoes.Swordplay, playful fencing?
Very well, spar against this fighter toughened by killing serious foes. He won't tire easily, his sword-skills are his life, he does not come from a leisure society where swordplay is playful.Spellcasting, now this is a more tricky contest. Elves can be very good at it. But one should insist, out of fairness, that since elves value age and experience, all contenders be of the same age. So a fifty year old veteran human wizard must be compared to a fifty year old near elven child with his latest interest in magic (but no actual levels, sorry, many decades away from first level). Why are these great people waiting so long to get good?
If a foul is called, and they insist discounting years, all contenders should be in their prime, age doesn't matter, very well, the 150 year old wizard protege can face off against the 150 year old lich.
Lich: In a raspy voice "Hellooo, my naaame is Waaaally the daaaamned".
Envoy in the spell Olympics: "Very good Wally, thank you for coming out of retirement, may I recommend spells focusing on fortitude?
Lich: "Goooood, yess, goooood".Crafting, poetry the arts.
All good sources of contest. Pit generalist elves with their arrogance and belief in cultural superiority against real specialists. The skill in poetry won't be the same, the crafmanship will be off. You can fap about for decades, but...
I know you're going for the humor here, but for the record, elves (now) can reflect some of that experience in their build...
- They can take the Breadth of Experience Feat from the APG. This gives a +2 to all Knowledge and Professions skills and can make these checks untrained (which can actually be really useful for Knowledge). Only elves can qualify for this at starting level if you're using standard starting level ages (because you have to be over 100 years old in addition to the racial requirements). This can account for the history and/or the gardening. :)
- Elven bards, fighters, and rangers can take favored class abilities (again, APG) that reflect their famous swordsmanship.
I'll have to disagree with the ageist comments, but I am over 400 years old myself, so I'm a mite sensitive about that.
The elf could be given almost all the fluff translated into racial bonuses. However, the level adjustment for that is not going to be zero. It would be at least three. There is a difference between novel literature and game literature.
Actually this can be explained simply thru the fact that they have many times the experience that other races have simply by virtue of living for so long. If you took a 20 year old human and a 20 year old elf, they'd be roughly comparable. However, by the time that elf has reached the age where their society considers them to be adult (i.e. the equivalent of 21 in human culture), they are probably level 4 or 5. Someone who is several levels ahead of you is going to seem pretty damned impressive no matter what race they are.
I worked out a spreadsheet illustrating this for another poster just the other day actually: [ Discussion | Spreadsheet ]
Anyway, that right there can account for most of the fluff from literature. Why are elves reputed to be the best spellcasters? Sure the boost vs SR and the Int bonus help, but the biggest reason is that as far as non-adventurers go, they are the only race to live long enough to reach the levels necessary to cast higher-level spells.
But one should insist, out of fairness, that since elves value age and experience, all contenders be of the same age. So a fifty year old veteran human wizard must be compared to a fifty year old near elven child with his latest interest in magic (but no actual levels, sorry, many decades away from first level).
Actually my theory supports this trope. Why are adventurers are just so shocking to most people? Because their dangerous lifestyles cause them to advance in level at a rate that catches the elders of a human village, dwarven nobles, or even youngish (~mid 100 year old) elves by surprise. That 50yo elf probably has a couple levels already, but compared to the 20-30yo human who has actually been out and adventuring, he'll likely be in for a humbling surprise. :)
Those elves who actually start at 1st level when adventuring are most likely really young (by elvish standards), having probably another 70-80 years to go before they are 'considered' adults — even though they are already fully grown by the time they are in their 20s.
An elven peasant IS an excelent swordsman.. compared to the human peasant they have +4 to hit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
|
Elves are cool... but the CON hit can really hurt... and infact cause you to FORCE Retire your character..
I had a 1/2 Elf 1st level Fighter/4th level Diviner(wizard) with a 11 CON killed in our Kingmaker campaign... reincarnated into an ELF..
Pathfinder Reincarnate = 2 Permanent Negative Levels (-10 Hitpoints) and I was changed into an ELF... so my CON went from a 11 to a 9... so another -5 hitpoints..
I think you got a bit stuffed there; the new physical mods replace what you had before, they don't stack.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated).
Put it another way; if you'd been playing a dwarf who was reincarnated as a dwarf, you wouldn't have your Con go up.
|
|
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
That's not a failing of the race, that's a failing of the setting and DM. Nothing in the human stats is any more flavorful than the elf stats.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If we go starfaring and encounter indigenous aliens, we'd probably do the same if they were technologically inferior to us. That's the premise of Avatar, after all.
I thought the premise of 'Avatar' was that we should 'sing with all the music of the mountains, paint with all the colours of the wind'?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
That depends on the setting. In Golarion for example...
'Returned elves' elves and their descendents who came back through the gate network.
Mordent Elves: elves who live in the Mordent Spire.
Wild Elves: elves from places like Mwangi
Iadara Elves: Who didn't leave but stayed in elven bomb shelters.
Forlorn Elves: Elves who stayed behind but didn't hide in the elf cities.
There's 5 different 'cultures' of elves right there.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Let's....let's not even start on Forgotten Realms elves. Okay?
That said, I miss the fey'ri.
I'm playing a Conjurer going on Mystic Theurge in Kingmaker, I could not decide on human or elf so I split the difference, its worked pretty well so far.
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
Nothing says there can only be one culture, though. In my settings elves tend to take a lot from human cultures (to the point where they don't have their own language), but differ from humans in being more conservative and having a lifestyle closer to nature and more reliant on magic. This means that while elves are still elves and do differ from humans, a "Persian" elf differs from an "Irish" elf quite a bit.
Let's....let's not even start on Forgotten Realms elves. Okay?
Do tell. I know nothing of FR elves.
Let's....let's not even start on Forgotten Realms elves. Okay?Do tell. I know nothing of FR elves.
Hiding to carry this OT
Just, there are a lot of them. I'd tell you to Google it but you'll mostly find results for 4th Ed Forgotten Realms, which confuses things (they killed most of the elves off or something, I stopped reading the description halfway through). As of 3.5 there were Gold/Sun Elves, Moon/Silver Elves, Copper/Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Wild Elves, Winged Elves... and I think Star Elves which I don't know much about but I usually hear people curse when they get mentioned. Maybe also Aquatic Elves were in there somewhere. All of these elves in 3.5 had different stats. And I've probably forgotten some obscure subrace or something.
Let's....let's not even start on Forgotten Realms elves. Okay?Do tell. I know nothing of FR elves.Hiding to carry this OT
** spoiler omitted **
You left out winged elves.
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
Elves at least have many different cutural backgrounds and archetypes. Probably a dozen at the most, but that's still way better than dwarves, who have just one. Axe-wielding scottish-viking alcoholic. There aren't even any variation within a culture. There exist only a single dwarf character in all that is reused again and again.