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ICV2 posts their Top 5 in hobby channel for Q3 2011.
Also, because I'm a jerk: Yes, DigitalMage, it was interesting to wait and see.
Congrats! Quite an accomplishment as this is the first time Dungeons & Dragons* hasn't been #1 for 2 quarters in a row.
*No disrespect to 4e or WotC intended.
Great news! Also the Pathfinder Core Book has held the #1 spot for most of the time at Amazon on the "Fantasy Gaming" top-sellers list.
Congrats, Paizo crew!
I wonder if anyone was expecting that. I certainly didn't. I thought it was pretty much going to be the same as the adventures they published.
Though that makes me wonder how much of the sales of rulebooks is in relation to adventures. I know lots of people who love the game, but don't use published adventures at all.
Don't companies have to publish regular reports on their profits? How did Paizos profits turn out after the release of the rulebooks?
Great news! And a well-deserved honour for Paizo; I don't think I've ever seen such a string of high-quality products from an RPG company. I hope it continues for a long time to come!
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I wonder if anyone was expecting that. I certainly didn't. I thought it was pretty much going to be the same as the adventures they published.
Though that makes me wonder how much of the sales of rulebooks is in relation to adventures. I know lots of people who love the game, but don't use published adventures at all.
Don't companies have to publish regular reports on their profits? How did Paizos profits turn out after the release of the rulebooks?
I was expecting it. The trend has been pretty obvious. I expect it will continue until 5e is finally released (or WotC does something else to suddenly boost sales).
Paizo is privately owned and has no obligation to share profit reports.
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I wonder if anyone was expecting that. I certainly didn't. I thought it was pretty much going to be the same as the adventures they published.
Though that makes me wonder how much of the sales of rulebooks is in relation to adventures. I know lots of people who love the game, but don't use published adventures at all.
Don't companies have to publish regular reports on their profits? How did Paizos profits turn out after the release of the rulebooks?
Paizo is not a publicly traded company, and as such their financial results are not public.
I wonder if anyone was expecting that. I certainly didn't.
Like Wicht said, if you have been looking at WotC's release schedule (pretty thin at the moment) and the columns on their web site where they are pretty clearly fishing for ideas for 5E, it's not surprising. They're winding down 4E and gearing up for 5E.
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I wonder if anyone was expecting that. I certainly didn't.Like Wicht said, if you have been looking at WotC's release schedule (pretty thin at the moment) and the columns on their web site where they are pretty clearly fishing for ideas for 5E, it's not surprising. They're winding down 4E and gearing up for 5E.
Alas, poor 4E, we knew thee so briefly before you became a candle in the wind...
Congratulations to Paizo for having the #1 Roleplaying Game! (It sorta has a ring to it doesn't it.) :)
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Can we start referring to it as "The World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game" now? ;-)
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Congrats, Paizo!
I'm gonna echo the comments about high quality, too, in products and in company conduct. There are several ways in which Paizo's ahead of a significant portion of the pack - PDF pricing, PDF/Physical book bundling in the subscription, making all game mechanics OGL, enthusiastic 3PP support, good quality writing - that makes me happy to see that they're getting the success that IMO they really deserve.
I actually noticed someone with more pathfinder books then me at my flgs this last quarter.
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I'm curious how this is reflected in FLGSes. I've found Pathfinder material more regularly than before this past year, but it still feels like the store considers Pathfinder second fiddle to D&D, given shelf-space and even knowledge of the product. Is this just around my parts?
One thing that a lot of customers do not know is that WotC uses their leverage as Magic the Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons publisher to force lots of products to game stores that they may not wish to carry. There's been lots of examples of this in WotC's history.
Star Wars TCG
Dream Blade
Chainmail d20
and many many more
Using their prime distributor Alliance (who sells to other distributors, much to those company's dismay), they setup packaged order that basically says to get X boxes of the new M:tG set, they must buy Y of 'blank' as well. That's why often times, WotC products get prime shelf space as well as a high quantity of them. Although the stores do not like this, M:tG still sells well enough for them to tolerate this.
I've been out of the industry since 2006 now, but I suspect WotC still does this.
How much does Wizards of the Coast's D&D Insider figure into this? For that matter, how much does Paizo's digital sales (PDFs, ePub, etc.) figure into their #1 spot?
Regardless, well done Paizo!
How much does Wizards of the Coast's D&D Insider figure into this? For that matter, how much does Paizo's digital sales (PDFs, ePub, etc.) figure into their #1 spot?
ICv2 deals with hobby retail sales and hobby retail sales alone. So digital sales aren't included, bookstore sales aren't included, and online sales aren't included. Further, it's survey-based, not an actual tracking of all product.
So, this is not stone-cold proof that Pathfinder outsells D&D. It is, however, a reasonably strong, if imperfect, indicator in that direction.
Considering how many folks like me (poor) probably use free online SRDs (meaning no profit), I think this is an amazing accomplishment.
UGH. Of course when D&D was number one it was pretty much stone cold proof that it was out selling everything else...
Anyway, congratz Paizo for another Quarter on top.
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Of course, the ICV2 charts doesn't include digital distribution, so it doesn't account for Paizo subscriptions and PDF sales and neither for WotC's DDI.
An itch on my back says that they're roughly equal.
An itch on my back says they are not equal and Paizo leads there, too.
My bet? Paizo's average net revenue per customer on its web store is at least between three and four times the size of WotC's net revenue per customer in terms of WotC's online sales revenue for D&D per month.
After all, Paizo sells THOUSANDS of products directly to the customer, with the large majority of those sales being revenue earned by its Pathfinder and GameMastery branded products. There are only a handful of products sold on the web store which are as cheap as a DDI monthly subscription. The more additional product lines are added into that subsciption, the more the revenue per customer adds up.
So the question is: Does WotC have at least between three and four times the number of subscribers than Paizo has online customers, including non-subscribers?
My bet is: No, they do not.
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How much does Wizards of the Coast's D&D Insider figure into this? For that matter, how much does Paizo's digital sales (PDFs, ePub, etc.) figure into their #1 spot?ICv2 deals with hobby retail sales and hobby retail sales alone. So digital sales aren't included, bookstore sales aren't included, and online sales aren't included. Further, it's survey-based, not an actual tracking of all product.
So, this is not stone-cold proof that Pathfinder outsells D&D. It is, however, a reasonably strong, if imperfect, indicator in that direction.
I thought it was everything in the distribution chain. Which includes book stores when they don't order directly from the company. But yes all digital sales and subscription sales are not included, so it really doesn't say how popular the games are as a whole, beyond what sells in the distribution chain of course. Still congratulations to Paizo, doing it two quarters in a row is pretty impressive. I want to know how well they do this Q4 with their new beginners box.
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Another quarter of my former favorite publisher, White Wolf, being 'sir-not-appearing-this-quarter.'
Another golden goose, throttled on the side of the road.
Yeah it is interesting to see how far White Wolf has fallen. To go from nipping at DnD's heels to falling completely off the map is not good. Of course I stopped buying from them shortly after they nuked the oWoD and made the switch to the nWoD.
Removed some unnecessary posts and replies. Keep it civil and above board, please.
Of course, the ICV2 charts doesn't include digital distribution, so it doesn't account for Paizo subscriptions and PDF sales and neither for WotC's DDI.
An itch on my back says that they're roughly equal.
An itch on my back says they are not equal and Paizo leads there, too.
My bet? Paizo's average net revenue per customer on its web store is at least between three and four times the size of WotC's net revenue per customer in terms of WotC's online sales revenue for D&D per month.
After all, Paizo sells THOUSANDS of products directly to the customer, with the large majority of those sales being revenue earned by its Pathfinder and GameMastery branded products. There are only a handful of products sold on the web store which are as cheap as a DDI monthly subscription. The more additional product lines are added into that subsciption, the more the revenue per customer adds up.
So the question is: Does WotC have at least between three and four times the number of subscribers than Paizo has online customers, including non-subscribers?
My bet is: No, they do not.
I would bet that as well! Paizo catered to the strongest part of the RPG market and their work is aptly rewarded!
I was more surprised to see Shadowrun even on the board than to see Paizo at #1. I'm tickled taffy farging pink for both parties, mind you....just, amazed Shadowrun is still up and kicking.
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What RPG is in third place now?
You can click the link in the original post and see for yourself :)
Or, for those who are click-challenged, here are the rankings:
Top 5 Roleplaying Games – Summer 2011
1 Pathfinder - Paizo Publishing
2 Dungeons & Dragons - Wizards of the Coast
3 Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch - Fantasy Flight Games
4 Dragon Age - Green Ronin Publishing
5 Shadowrun - Catalyst Game Labs
Congrats to Paizo staff who keep cranking out quality product! Does anyone have metrics on how Pathfinder has grown in terms of registered Organized Play members/events?
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Yeah it is interesting to see how far White Wolf has fallen. To go from nipping at DnD's heels to falling completely off the map is not good. Of course I stopped buying from them shortly after they nuked the oWoD and made the switch to the nWoD.Another quarter of my former favorite publisher, White Wolf, being 'sir-not-appearing-this-quarter.'
Ditto. I loved the Vampire and Mage sides of the old World of Darkness, as well as their Scarred Lands setting, and the Aeon / Trinity, Aberrant and Adventure! settings. (Ooh, Adventure!, how I loved that pulpy goodness!)
It's neat to see Green Ronin still plugging away. They had a ton of great stuff in the '3rd era,' like Plot & Poison, Hamunaptra, Mindshadows, Temple Quarter, the Psychic's Handbook, the Freeport Trilogy (and various other Freeport books), etc. And, of course, Mutants and Masterminds!
Does anyone have metrics on how Pathfinder has grown in terms of registered Organized Play members/events?
We do, but precise numbers are not public knowledge.
Yeah it is interesting to see how far White Wolf has fallen. To go from nipping at DnD's heels to falling completely off the map is not good. Of course I stopped buying from them shortly after they nuked the oWoD and made the switch to the nWoD.Another quarter of my former favorite publisher, White Wolf, being 'sir-not-appearing-this-quarter.'
They still had a strong presence well into nWoD. It really was when CCP bought them and reduced their staff to a skeleton crew that they truly started to disappear.
Of course, every time I comment that White Wolf is dying someone pulls out their press release that lists a bunch of products coming out. However, they've switched to purely digital and print on demand with the occasional traditional book. While that will keep them limping along for a while, a dwindling game store presence means a reduced public awareness. Yes, die hard fans will buy the Vampire 20th Anniversary edition from print on demand. But new customers? Those come from being on shelves in game stores.
I think Wizards is making the same mistake right now. They are making good money from DDI. But if you aren't putting new books on shelves, people will stop being aware of your products. They haven't completely cut out the physical products, but they really need to ramp up again if they want to stay competitive.
Anyway, congrats Paizo! I'm also happy that Dragon Age is going strong. I need to pick up set 2 still.
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An itch on my back says they are not equal and Paizo leads there, too.
My bet? Paizo's average net revenue per customer on its web store is at least between three and four times the size of WotC's net revenue per customer in terms of WotC's online sales revenue for D&D per month.
After all, Paizo sells THOUSANDS of products directly to the customer, with the large majority of those sales being revenue earned by its Pathfinder and GameMastery branded products. There are only a handful of products sold on the web store which are as cheap as a DDI monthly subscription. The more additional product lines are added into that subsciption, the more the revenue per customer adds up.
So the question is: Does WotC have at least between three and four times the number of subscribers than Paizo has online customers, including non-subscribers?
My bet is: No, they do not.
The WotC Community D&D Insider group contains nearly 64,000 members. You are automatically added to this group if you are a DDI subscriber, and have also created a community account tied to that subscription. You are also automatically removed from this group if your subscription ends. Obviously that 64,000 represents some fraction of the actual number of subscribers, since it stands to reason that many (perhaps even most) of those who have DDI subscriptions don't bother at all with the official forums.
In other words, WotC has tens of thousands (and likely in excess of 100,000) of active D&D Insider subscribers.
Your call on the bet.
