Crossbow Butt-strokes


Advice

Shadow Lodge

Say my marksdwarf (Dwarf crossbow-archetype Fighter) takes the Catch Off-Guard feat for his crossbow. Does this mean he gets Weapon Focus/Specialization bonuses when he wants to bash someone with his crossbow, or would it only apply to its original intended use of firing bolts?

Also, in case of any "Use a bow instead" responses, a heavy crossbow is heavier than a longbow, and - even though ranged attackers aren't supposed to do this - would most likely do more damage when used in improvised melee.

Dark Archive

The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

Say my marksdwarf (Dwarf crossbow-archetype Fighter) takes the Catch Off-Guard feat for his crossbow. Does this mean he gets Weapon Focus/Specialization bonuses when he wants to bash someone with his crossbow, or would it only apply to its original intended use of firing bolts?

Also, in case of any "Use a bow instead" responses, a heavy crossbow is heavier than a longbow, and - even though ranged attackers aren't supposed to do this - would most likely do more damage when used in improvised melee.

w focus + specialization should only apply when using as intended

Shadow Lodge

Name Violation wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

Say my marksdwarf (Dwarf crossbow-archetype Fighter) takes the Catch Off-Guard feat for his crossbow. Does this mean he gets Weapon Focus/Specialization bonuses when he wants to bash someone with his crossbow, or would it only apply to its original intended use of firing bolts?

Also, in case of any "Use a bow instead" responses, a heavy crossbow is heavier than a longbow, and - even though ranged attackers aren't supposed to do this - would most likely do more damage when used in improvised melee.

w focus + specialization should only apply when using as intended

Aw well, doing something like that would only be a desperation attack anyway. Thanks for the clarification.

Shadow Lodge

The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

Say my marksdwarf (Dwarf crossbow-archetype Fighter) takes the Catch Off-Guard feat for his crossbow. Does this mean he gets Weapon Focus/Specialization bonuses when he wants to bash someone with his crossbow, or would it only apply to its original intended use of firing bolts?

Also, in case of any "Use a bow instead" responses, a heavy crossbow is heavier than a longbow, and - even though ranged attackers aren't supposed to do this - would most likely do more damage when used in improvised melee.

YES YOU CAN AND I LOVE YOUR FRIKING IDEA!!! major props to your concept, i may have to steal it if i ever decide to play a crossbow man.

Shadow Lodge

TheSideKick wrote:

YES YOU CAN AND I LOVE YOUR FRIKING IDEA!!! major props to your concept, i may have to steal it if i ever decide to play a crossbow man.

Then go right ahead and push for a house rule! Just don't ask for the gunslinger's Pistol Whip to get applied to crossbows if you have a gunslinger in the group. She won't let you steal her thunder.

-Edit-
My plan was to take Catch Off-Guard early on like level 2 until or near when he gets Safe Shot/lots of ammo and ways to keep people from closing with him. Then I'd re-train it into one of the Vital Strike feats or something else to load more damage on a single attack. My main focus with him would be interrupting casters, shooting down flying things or just aiming at the foe who's moving toward him.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed some off-topic posts. Let's act like adults, please.

Scarab Sages

The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Say my marksdwarf (Dwarf crossbow-archetype Fighter) takes the Catch Off-Guard feat for his crossbow.

Just to be clear; Catch Off Guard applies to any improvised weapon, it doesn't have to be specified when taking the feat.


Personally, I think the idea is awesome, as I can picture a dwarf getting mobbed by a couple zombies or goblins and then cracking one of their skulls open with his crossbow. Also, I don't think the catch off guard feat specifies what is and isn't an improvised weapon, so (as a gm) i'd allow it.

off-topic: I was browsing through and saw a post that contained the word "butt-strokes". Did anyone else giggle a little at first?


How about attaching a bayonet?

I would believe that using a crossbow for melee ruins its precision, if for example the bow gets a blow.

Shadow Lodge

Okay okay okay, first of all, a "butt-stroke" is like a pistol whip, only with the butt of a crossbow or rifle. Feel free to use that kind of joke as part of your bluff check against a deadly beauty, though.

Secondly, Catch Off-Guard works with any improvised weapon, but I was thinking of a specific one for the issue.

Thirdly, it takes an action to put a bayonet on or take it off, and you can't fire the crossbow when it has a knife on the front. It should be able to do more melee damage that way, though, as it isn't improvised.


The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

Okay okay okay, first of all, a "butt-stroke" is like a pistol whip, only with the butt of a crossbow or rifle. Feel free to use that kind of joke as part of your bluff check against a deadly beauty, though.

Secondly, Catch Off-Guard works with any improvised weapon, but I was thinking of a specific one for the issue.

Thirdly, it takes an action to put a bayonet on or take it off, and you can't fire the crossbow when it has a knife on the front. It should be able to do more melee damage that way, though, as it isn't improvised.

You can have it built so that the bayonet does not interfere with firing, and have it on at all times.

Scarab Sages

The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Thirdly, it takes an action to put a bayonet on or take it off, and you can't fire the crossbow when it has a knife on the front. It should be able to do more melee damage that way, though, as it isn't improvised.

Many crossbows had a spike on the front, to aid in bracing while loading. That shouldn't interfere with the firing.

Check out images of 'Cinderlander', and you'll see what I mean.

EXAMPLE

I wouldn't want to take a whack off that.

Shadow Lodge

ObligatoryHuman wrote:

Personally, I think the idea is awesome, as I can picture a dwarf getting mobbed by a couple zombies or goblins and then cracking one of their skulls open with his crossbow. Also, I don't think the catch off guard feat specifies what is and isn't an improvised weapon, so (as a gm) i'd allow it.

off-topic: I was browsing through and saw a post that contained the word "butt-strokes". Did anyone else giggle a little at first?

using a ranged weapon as a melee weapon IS an improvised weapon... at least it was in 3.5 i dont think they changed that ruling tho.

the logic is that a ranged weapon(not a thrown weapon) has no dice for being used as a melee weapon, there for you cannot do it.

BUT catch off guard lets you use things without damage dice, for being a melee weapon, as a melee weapon. i have to say again, i frikin love your idea lol

oh but the danger is that you will break your crossbow on a roll of a nat one, make sure to take jury-rig (i think thats the feat)

Shadow Lodge

Tandriniel wrote:

You can have it built so that the bayonet does not interfere with firing, and have it on at all times.

In the APG, it says that when a bayonet is attached, the ranged weapon can't work as a ranged weapon. Putting it on or taking it off is a move action.

If I can get meet the GM halfway, I could get the crossbow itself silver-plated to count like that with blunt force damage instead of piercing.

Also, in the game to which my marksdwarf would be an homage (Dwarf Fortress), marksdwarves always bash things with crossbows when they run out of ammo. Silver ones hit harder just by virtue of being heavier than bronze.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

When my crossbowman wanted this same functionality I made the following rules:

It's a move action to switch your hold on the crossbow to butt-smash in melee (and threaten in melee)

Catch Off Guard negates the -4 attack penalty for improvised

Crossbow Master makes it a swift action to switch between ranged and melee and allows Weapon Focus/Spec to work for smashes

(Since crossbow master usually lets them basically reload in melee anyway, it sort of negates any need for the butt-smash, so I added some glitz to it so he may still have fun smashing in skeleton skulls once in a while, it's not terribly powerful even with the bonuses it allows)

Weapon Mastery (close) affects improvised crossbow bludgeoning.


I thought of doing something similar with a gunslinger with a musket back in first gunslinger playtest.

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