RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Why don't these exist I asked myself? So I have started allowing players to use them.
Costing:
The cost to make the composite longbow is a lower cost ratio increase compared to that of the composite shortbow. Is it harder to make a smaller item more powerful due to materials? And since making an item both reapeating and composite would be more difficult, a larger increase was added. Cost increases by 150 gp for each strength modifier instead of the standard 100 gp.
Composite Hand Crossbow - 225 gp, range 40 ft
Composite Light Crossbow - 110 gp, range 90 ft
Composite Heavy Crossbow - 80 gp, range 130 ft
Composite Light Repeating Crossbow -500 gp, range 90 ft
Composite Heavy Repeating Crossbow - 650 gp, range 130 ft
Crafting DCs were increased as well.
Item Craft _______________________ Craft DC
Composite Crossbow ______________ 18
Composite Crossbow w/ Str Rating ___ 18 + (2 x Str rating)
A composite bow is just a bow that is constructed with a greater draw strength that allows you to shoot the arrow with more force if you can draw the bow. A crossbow usually uses a mechanism to draw back the string especially for the heavier ones. A lot of the time it is difficult if not impossible to draw back the string manually, but the mechanism allows anyone to do so no matter what their STR. In game terms the idea of a composite crossbow does not make since. The increase range and damage of the crossbow is already accounted for in the stats of the weapon.
Later in the middle ages they had some crossbows that the bow portion was made of metal called an arbalest that was stronger than even a heavy crossbow. It would probably do about 2d6 damage. But it would not have a STR rating because the only way to load it was with the mechanism.
You can certainly make a stronger crossbow; it just needs more strength to cock it. It's probably heavier and maybe larger, but otherwise the same as the equivalent type with the same mechanism.
PF doesn't describe crossbows very usefully. Something with the rate of fire in PF would be something like a stirrup bow or gastrophetes (for a light crossbow) or a goats-foot bow (for a heavy). A windlass bow is much slower and couldn't possibly be used in melee, AoO or not.
So, composite crossbows effectively already exist in the game - as heavy crossbow.
Well that's not a fair comparison. The Heavy Crossbow doesn't rely on your stats in any way, requires another reload feat to use effectively, and doesn't even follow the normal dmg dice progression. (1d8->2d6, not 1d10)
Paizo really should have included some Martial crossbows on par with bows, but it appears someone were of the opinion that crossbows were for unskilled combatants. All of the repeating crossbows, and the hand crossbow, should have been martial weapons.
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To differentiate crossbows from bows I'd make the "composite" crossbows key off Constitution rather than Strength. In this way it still provides the niche of "low-Str ranged weapon" while also being competitive.
And operating the mechanism is still tough work, even if not purely Strength-based, so Constitution fits.
Then make the Deadly Aim bonus increase by an additional +50% on crossbows.
Finally, Crossbow Mastery would also allow you to shoot twice (with a -2 penalty) as a standard action. Already having a bolt loaded should speed things up. Compatible with Vital Strike because why not.
Well that's not a fair comparison. The Heavy Crossbow doesn't rely on your stats in any way, requires another reload feat to use effectively, and doesn't even follow the normal dmg dice progression.
right, the REASON it has more damage dice and is harder to reload is that it takes more effort (strength) to load it. basically the STR bonus is built into the damage dice, instead of an extra bonus.
In real life a crossbow does not rely on the users muscle. The heavier crossbows use a mechanical crank to draw back the string. Anyone able to manipulate the crank can load a crossbow. The crossbow stores a set amount of kinetic energy and releases it when fired. Cranking it faster or harder makes absolutely no difference. The amount of kinetic energy remains the same no matter how it is loaded. You can have one person load the crossbow and another person fire it and it does exactly the same damage.
A composite crossbow makes about as much sense as a composite pistol.
right, the REASON it has more damage dice and is harder to reload is that it takes more effort (strength) to load it. basically the STR bonus is built into the damage dice, instead of an extra bonus.Well that's not a fair comparison. The Heavy Crossbow doesn't rely on your stats in any way, requires another reload feat to use effectively, and doesn't even follow the normal dmg dice progression.
But the Longbow doesn't require more effort to reload. Neither does the Orc Hornbow. Realistically they would both require more effort than a shortbow to pull, but that's ignored because they're bows. And they have composite versions.
A composite bow (or an orc hornbow) with a STR rating does in fact require more effort to load. If you lack the required STR you take a penalty to hit and do not add the extra damage from STR. Bows have a draw weight (often referred to as poundage) that measures how much force is required to draw the bow. The higher the draw weight the more kinetic energy the bow transfers to the arrow. A person who is not strong enough to handle the draw weight cannot pull the string back as far and struggles to shoot the bow.
The game abstracts a lot of this for ease of play. A composite bow is basically a bow with a higher draw weight. Part of this abstraction is that only composite bows can have a STR rating. In reality all bows should have been able to have a STR rating.
The real difference between a normal bow and a composite bow is the length of the bow. A composite bow because of the construction can be shorter and have the same draw strength. It has to do with the fact the curve is more pronounced and that the bow does not break because of its construction. The smaller size allows it to be used while mounted. Crossbows used the same construction techniques already. The curve length of a crossbow is already shorter, and the bow is reinforced to allow it to be drawn. In some cases, the crossbow is made out of metal which is significantly stronger than any wood.
If pistols are already composite, why are you not arguing they should be able to add the STR bonus to damage? A Crossbow function more like firearms than bows.
A composite bow (or an orc hornbow) with a STR rating does in fact require more effort to load. If you lack the required STR you take a penalty to hit and do not add the extra damage from STR.
Follow the conversation. A longbow does not require more effort to load than a shortbow, as per the game system. It is not a good analogy to call Heavy Crossbows the [composite crossbows of Light Crossbows] when they mechanically doesn't function in any way like the composite bows.
Just as a Longbow isn't the composite version of a Shortbow, a Heavy crossbow is not the composite version of a Light crossbow.
A composite crossbow, as per the game system, would entail adding an ability mod to damage with no increase in reload time. This does not exist.
A Crossbow function more like firearms than bows.
What?
The mechanism of a crossbow isn't automatic. It may be easier than drawing it "by hand" but it's not easy work. Give an arbalest to a ten year old and they won't be able to use it. Crossbows definitely had a requisite strength needed by its wielder, and it would be perfectly logical to introduce crossbows with higher requirements for greater gains.
Game mechanics of weapons are an abstraction of a real-world item. Just because one item uses a particular game mechanic does not mean that game mechanic is suited for other things. The bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded one handed by taking a feat. Why are there not bastard maces, flails or pole arms?
The game mechanic of a composite bow is an abstraction of the draw strength of the bow being higher therefore increasing the damage the bow can do. If you lack the strength to fully draw the bow you have difficulty firing the bow. This is appropriate because when you use a bow the wielder has to physically pull back the string each time it is fired. This abstraction is not appropriate for the crossbow.
The crossbow uses stored energy instead of direct energy. To load the crossbow the string is always pulled back to the same spot and stores the same amount of kinetic energy every time. It does not matter if the person loading it can barely work the mechanism or if they can work it with one finger. You can even have someone else load the crossbow and it still stores the same kinetic energy. Most crossbows can only be loaded by the mechanism because humans are not strong enough to pull back the string. The mechanism uses leverage to multiply the loaders strength to pull back the string. Someone with a higher strength might be able to load the crossbow faster but would not store more kinetic energy. If you want to argue someone with a higher STR can load a crossbow faster I could see that, but not it is doing more damage.
A 10-year-old child can and did load crossbows. Since they take so long to load, they would often have use children to load crossbows when defending a wall. The child would load the crossbow for the warrior so they could fire them more rapidly. After firing a crossbow, the warrior grabbed a loaded crossbow and discarded the one he just used. The kid would then grab that bow and load it for the warrior.
Loading a crossbow is actually a lot easier than loading black powder. It takes a little muscle but not as much as you would think. Crossbows often had braces to help make them easier to load. As long as the string is pulled back it works. With black powder if you load it wrong it can fail to fire or even explode in the barrel.
Before you use an abstraction (game mechanic) you should be able to explain how it works in the real-world terms. Please explain how someone with a higher STR (and only that person) will do more damage with a crossbow, but when they give the loaded crossbow to another person does not do more damage. I am really curious as to what a such a crossbow would look like and the real-world physics behind such an item.
The same crossbow will always do the same damage regardless of who shoots it (feats like Deadly Aim, etc aside). But a crossbow with a stiffer bow or a longer draw will do more damage, and (all else being equal) require a stronger user to draw the thing with the same ROF. Why is that so hard to understand?
Bolt Ace makes any crossbow a composite crossbow... or at least gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier with that crossbow. Granted, Bolt Ace did not exist at the time this thread was started. Lol.
The same crossbow will always do the same damage regardless of who shoots it (feats like Deadly Aim, etc aside). But a crossbow with a stiffer bow or a longer draw will do more damage, and (all else being equal) require a stronger user to draw the thing with the same ROF. Why is that so hard to understand?
It's not hard to understand, but you're making assumptions. You're assuming the strength of the person loading the crossbow is the limiting factor on how much draw strength can be used, but I don't think that's the case. If the crossbow's draw strength is already at the limit imposed by construction and materials, "a stiffer bow or a longer draw" don't work.
Heavy crossbows use winches, which means the strength required depends on the transmission (i.e. the ratio between the different gears). It's not complicated to make even the heaving more turns of the winch.
If anything, the strength score would affect reload speed (using a winch with a lower transmission allows faster cranking if you have the required strength), but that particular mechanic is not implemented in the game. Therefore, we can presume that a heavy crossbow is already at maximum draw strength possible. And if a heavy crossbow at maximum draw strength is 1d10, a light crossbow with its 1d8 must logically be so, too.
I you want more realism, make it so that it requires a certain strength scomodifier to draw (i.e. load) a crossbow. But the strength score affecting damage makes no sense.
The same crossbow will always do the same damage regardless of who shoots it (feats like Deadly Aim, etc aside). But a crossbow with a stiffer bow or a longer draw will do more damage, and (all else being equal) require a stronger user to draw the thing with the same ROF. Why is that so hard to understand?
1. Yeah, a stiffer bow will do more damage, hence the heavy crossbow.
2. no, anyone can still draw a heavy crossbow because it uses a winch system to give mechanical advantage to the person drawing it, hence the lower rate of fire.
It's not complicated to make even the heaving more turns of the winch.
This line got botched up, it's supposed to say "It's not complicated to make even the heaviest of crossbows require almost no strength to draw, with the downside of requiring more turns of the winch."