Magical flight while underwater

[Caoulhoun]

If you have just cast fly, and then go underwater, are you flying or swimming or a combination of the two?

I would think the same power to push you through the air and negate gravity would allow you at least the same movement through water, but there was nothing that I could find on the subject either in the PRD or on the boards.

Any input is appreciated.

[Lincoln Hills]

Well, I doubt this is RaW, but I've been treating supernatural flight (including that granted by fly and so forth) as granting half the flight speed as a swim speed. Doesn't apply to "natural" (i.e. winged) flight.

[Caoulhoun]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Well, I doubt this is RaW, but I've been treating supernatural flight (including that granted by fly and so forth) as granting half the flight speed as a swim speed. Doesn't apply to "natural" (i.e. winged) flight.

I know that you are house ruling something, but why would it be less movement in water rather than the same? I mean the propulsion needed to power flight through air seems to be more than would be needed for water since gravity is less of a concern.

[King of Vrock]

I think I'm a stickler here. The fly spell grants you a flight speed, not a swim speed. Water is not air and spells do exactly what they say. I would say once you go underwater you need to make swim checks.

--Vrock Lobster

[LovesTha]

RAW: no, it doesn't help at all

If your going to let it then reducing speed is sensible due to greatly increased drag. There is a reason submarines are slower than boats which are slower than planes.

[James Jacobs]

Yeah...

Swim and Fly are not only different types of movement speeds... they're governed by entirely different skills.

Fly does not grant you any bonus or benefit to flight at all. There are different spells (such as touch of the sea from Advanced Player's Guide) that grant you increases or bonuses to swimming. Fly does not.

[Caoulhoun]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yeah...

Swim and Fly are not only different types of movement speeds... they're governed by entirely different skills.

Fly does not grant you any bonus or benefit to flight at all. There are different spells (such as touch of the sea from Advanced Player's Guide) that grant you increases or bonuses to swimming. Fly does not.

I only quote the mistake, because it still shows we are ALL human. I know you meant to put swim.

I guess I am one that likes a bit of reality to my magic. If I can fly in the air and avoid the pitfalls of gravity and move in any direction, then why would I not be able to exert the same force when suddenly submerged?

Does the ruling then expand in that would mean that you could never dimension door into water, as it is technically solid body, since the water occupies that space?

[King of Vrock]

Caoulhoun wrote:

Does the ruling then expand in that would mean that you could never dimension door into water, as it is technically solid body, since the water occupies that space?

Well actually that might not fly (pun intended) as well... depends on if water is surface capable of supporting you. I think it does.

PRD Magic wrote:

Conjuration

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

[EWHM]

1st edition DMG, in the section on underwater adventures, had magical flight give you considerably increased speed underwater. It's in the section that describes the variant effects of spells cast underwater (wall of ice becomes a mini iceberg, for instance, lightning bolt takes the shape of a fireball, etc).

[taepodong]

I don't think RAW _Fly_ does anything to help you underwater. I always allow the character under something like _Fly_, _Jump_ or _Feather Fall_ have a little easier time with swimming (a small bonus on Swim checks, slightly improved speed for when exact speeds are being tracked, etc.), but they do not fly or levitate underwater. There is a lot more drag on an object underwater than there is in the air.
As for the _Dimension Door_ question, I have allowed that spell, _Blink_ and _Teleport_ go into, travel through and exit from water, as water is closer in composition to a gas than a solid (unless it's frozen, in which case, obviously, NO). I personally don't care if this is against the rules, teleporting is awesome.

[Ughbash]

Go into a swimming pool (or the ocean) at neck deep water and try to run. You will nto move nearly as fast as you woudl swimming.

Swimming uses movement to go through a liquid medium where running (and flying) let you move through a gaseous medium. The force is applied in a differnt fashion based on the viscosity of the substance.

Air resistance is minimal while water resistance is substantial.

Even in real world athletic events dealign with air makes a signifigant differnce. Cycling and Running. Runners do not do as well at high altitude because the thinner atmosphere they get less oxygen. Cyclist on the other hand do BETTER at high altitude (within reason) because while they get less oxygen, tehre is also less air resistance and they are traveling fast enough for that to make a differnce.

So basically no, fly spell would not let you move faster through water (swimming)or solid earth (burrowing). Any more then running will let you move faster through water.

[Ughbash]

taepodong wrote:

As for the _Dimension Door_ question, I have allowed that spell, _Blink_ and _Teleport_ go into, travel through and exit from water, as water is closer in composition to a gas than a solid (unless it's frozen, in which case, obviously, NO). I personally don't care if this is against the rules, teleporting is awesome.

Water (as we normally think of it) is no closer to a solid then it is to a gas. There are three seprate and distict states for matter. Liquid, Solid, Gas. Water can exist in all states though we commonly think of it as a Liquid. Steam is water in a gaseous state, Ice is water in a solid state.

As a result I personally would not allow someone to dimension door into liquid since it is "non-compressable".

Lets say you have a perfectly sealed room that is 10 x 10 x 10 filled with air. You can teleport into it with no difficulty as the air will compress.

Lets say you have a 10 x 10 x 10 cube of granite, you can not teleport into the middle of it as the granite will not compressto make room.

Now the same 10 x 10 x 10 room perfectly sealed full of water (in its liquid state). You can not teleport into it because you can not displace or compress the water.

[Lincoln Hills]

Hm. Teleport to Underwater Destination deserves its own thread, methinks.

[Midnight_Angel]

Ughbash wrote:

Now the same 10 x 10 x 10 room perfectly sealed full of water (in its liquid state). You can not teleport into it because you can not displace or compress the water.

Ah, but water is compressible.

If I didn't miscalculate, attempting to compress the water within a 10-foot-cube enough to allow for another 80 litres (rough guesstimate for a human body) would result in a pressure increase of a measly 59 bars (or some 835 PSI)
Of course, the pressure you experience might differ, as your body, containing gases, and (also slightly compressible) liquids will also yield, but you get the idea...

*runs for cover*

[Ughbash]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ughbash wrote:

Now the same 10 x 10 x 10 room perfectly sealed full of water (in its liquid state). You can not teleport into it because you can not displace or compress the water.

Ah, but water is compressible.

If I didn't miscalculate, attempting to compress the water within a 10-foot-cube enough to allow for another 80 litres (rough guesstimate for a human body) would result in a pressure increase of a measly 59 bars (or some 835 PSI)
Of course, the pressure you experience might differ, as your body, containing gases, and (also slightly compressible) liquids will also yield, but you get the idea...

*runs for cover*

Technically solids are compressable too... it is the tehory behind singularities....

It has been a while since I have done any physics

wikipedia wrote:

CompressibilityThe compressibility of water is a function of pressure and temperature. At 0 °C, at the limit of zero pressure, the compressibility is 5.1×10−10 Pa−1.[27] At the zero-pressure limit, the compressibility reaches a minimum of 4.4×10−10 Pa−1 around 45 °C before increasing again with increasing temperature. As the pressure is increased, the compressibility decreases, being 3.9×10−10 Pa−1 at 0 °C and 100 MPa.

The bulk modulus of water is 2.2 GPa.[28] The low compressibility of non-gases, and of water in particular, leads to their often being assumed as incompressible. The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume

Now without doing any complex calculations and assuming your 835PSI is correct. Something is likley to give. A 10' by 10' wall has 120"x120" or 14400 square inches. 14400 x 835PSI is a force applied to the wall of 12,024,000 pounds.

Now 80 liters of water is 80,000 cubic centimeters of water. This is 12400 Cubic inches. Let for simplicit make it a cube 23 inches per side. 23 x 23 x 6 gives us a suface area of 3174 square inches. The force applied to the cube is now 3174 x 835 = 2,650,290 lbs.

SPLAT!!!!!

(Unless I made a miscalculation) as it has been 25 ears since I took physics and I do not use it in my day to day life.

[Devilkiller]

This almost came up in a game yesterday. I asked the players what they thought, and people's opinions were split. I guess I'll go with JJ's ruling that Fly doesn't help you underwater. I suppose that it should still work to fly into the air from the surface of the water though. Certainly winged flight should work that way. Otherwise ducks would be in a lot of trouble.

[Abigail :: TheSeventhVeil]

What I'm getting from this is half of fly speed underwater..

manuverability and skill checks change but 3d combat is hard for some so that likely wont come into play.

i found this thread trying to find out if my party's wizard could move more easily than jsut swimming with his fly spell.

combine that with freedom of movement and the house rule is that he is no longer impeded by being underwater at all. (reminds me of the helm of underwater action in 2E)

and if the language of this post is more commentary i leave this behind for future pathfinders that also find this topic on google. Half speed and i hope you have water breathing as well

[jimibones83]

Raw doesnt allow it, but I could see reason to house rule it. Flight could be viewed as some sort of self telekinesis if no other explanation is available, such as wings. In this case it makes perfect sense to be able to navigate through water as well. However, I would certainly reduce speed. Water is much denser than air so it resists movement quite a bit more. If you try to run in a pool you will notice that you can't even run half as fast as you can outside the water.

[LazarX]

Devilkiller wrote:

This almost came up in a game yesterday. I asked the players what they thought, and people's opinions were split. I guess I'll go with JJ's ruling that Fly doesn't help you underwater. I suppose that it should still work to fly into the air from the surface of the water though. Certainly winged flight should work that way. Otherwise ducks would be in a lot of trouble.

Ducks use their webbed feet, for water propulsion. If you've ever watched ducks in action, they keep their wings closed and tucked in while diving underwater, and they're not really that good at underwater mobility as penguins are, who've given up flight to modify their wings to work as flippers.

[jimibones83]

LazarX wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

This almost came up in a game yesterday. I asked the players what they thought, and people's opinions were split. I guess I'll go with JJ's ruling that Fly doesn't help you underwater. I suppose that it should still work to fly into the air from the surface of the water though. Certainly winged flight should work that way. Otherwise ducks would be in a lot of trouble.

Ducks use their webbed feet, for water propulsion. If you've ever watched ducks in action, they keep their wings closed and tucked in while diving underwater, and they're not really that good at underwater mobility as penguins are, who've given up flight to modify their wings to work as flippers.

he's talking about ducks using their wings to take flight once they hit the surface