The Vancian magic system is American, because Jack Vance was born in California, in 1950.
Born 1916, SF/CA still writing although 'blind'. Vancian magic was first used in the Dying Earth of 1950 publication. Still one of favorite authors to hate re-re-re-reading.
Edit: Lost part of the post somehow...
Five Characters at the table last night, 2 multiclassed and one Magus, the best Fighter/Mage yet! Does that count as a multiclass? And if someone comes up with a 'class' that falls between Mage and Cleric, would that cancel the other 2 players out (Sorc/Cleric and a Cleric/Wiz to a Magic goddess)?
We are currently running two different AP in our group.
Group A is 6 players and the GM. The PCs are scattered through 6-7th levels. Of that group there is one player multi-classing, me. I'm running a Wizard(Illusion)/Bard 5/2 who is a social character. I ran up 5 levels in Wizard then took the Bard levels pretty much to boost his social abilities. This will likely be a 2 level dip, then I'll continue on with my Wizard studies. (I will have to admit that I do enjoy using Summon Instrument to have a tuba come into play for use with Inspire Courage.)
Group B is 3-4 players (depending) at 2-3rd level. Of that group, one character has multi-classed and will most likely alternate levels. She is Rogue/Ranger 1/1.
So to answer the original poster's question, in our groups there is some multi-classing but it is not as rampant as we saw in our 3.0 and 3.5 games. Receiving the bonus HP and skill point is a small part of this, some of it revolves around other class abilities themselves, and some is that these two groups have some 'newer' players.
The level 20 boosts for each class are a bit of a carrot-on-the-stick to continue with a class but honestly, I've never made a PC last to 20th in 3.x or Pathfinder. (11th max IIRC) I'd definitely consider taking 20 levels in one class if it was a one-off adventure at 20th level.
I have a build for an archer fighter with six levels urban barbarian and one oracle level.
It's designed to spell sunder with a bow at range, and it works great.
I have a build for an archer fighter with six levels urban barbarian and one oracle level.
It's designed to spell sunder with a bow at range, and it works great.
I thought is was also an invulnerable rager.
I thought is was also an invulnerable rager.I have a build for an archer fighter with six levels urban barbarian and one oracle level.
It's designed to spell sunder with a bow at range, and it works great.
That it is. I forgot that bit. Sorry.
in the two games i am in I multiclass.
My kingmaker game alch 4/ wiz 2(uni)
my friend wild west homebrew
2 bard(archologist)/2 rogue
the reasons because it helps fill in roles we dont have ie more divine caster in king and ww because it sponetinus caster only expt for alch do to the set is where magic is still very new
No, instead I see 'dipping', which I define more as 'take the minimum amount of as many classes as possible in order to gain the maximum mechanical benefit'.
Or a conceptual benefit. I often take some monk levels as a foundation to an unarmed melee fighter, then spin off into a some other melee class (as an ex-monk). I'm sure I could mechanically make a better character, but I loves me some flurry of blows an no armor AC.
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IMO, the real limits on multiclassing come from the GMs and not from the rules.
PFRPG did a very good job on making playing a single class character quite interesting.
However, if you want to overoptimize an aspect of your character, mixing classes (and archetypes) is still the best way to go.
This is no problem in a setting where the RAW are all-powerful and GM's fiat less so (such as Pathfinder Society).
For example, my PFS character is a Rogue/Monk (Flowing)/Wizard (Foresight)/Fighter (Lore Warden) who will likely take a level in either Barbarian (Urban) or Alchemist (Vivisectionist) after completing the Halfling Opportunist Prestige Class.
I would never be able to play such a character, not matter how well-justified, in any of my GMs' home games. Simply because they feel such a character to be cheesy (because of its mix of classes and abilities), even though he is not spectacularly powerful in any special way.
*shrugs* One of the chars I am currently playing (air elemental sorceress) started the game with one level of Cleric.
Because it fit her backstory (awakening to her heritage was an in-game event).
Suboptimal? Probably. Fun to play? Hell yes!
Never liked multiclassing in D&D, figures in Pathfinder.
All good fictional stories I've come to appreciate have in them quite straight characters, not wizards who make dance shows in town squares, thieves who hug trees, and such.
I often see multiclassing made far too easily. "I barely read tavern signs for all my life, but in the last week I studied the book of that wizard I killed... hey, now I can take a wizard level!" You get the idea.
*shrugs* One of the chars I am currently playing (air elemental sorceress) started the game with one level of Cleric.
Because it fit her backstory (awakening to her heritage was an in-game event).
Suboptimal? Probably. Fun to play? Hell yes!
Dipping for 1 level of cleric isn't the worst thing you could do. Some of the basic 1st level domain powers are pretty useful (Travel domain bonus to speed, for example), and it never hurts to have a little healing magic on hand, even if the amount you heal becomes proportionally less due to the damage you are taking/can take, plus that 1d6 channel can have its uses, again as low as it is. And for a sorcerer, starting at 1st level with 8 instead of 6 base HP isn't an awful thing either--plus gets a few more class skills (like Diplomacy, which I've never understood why a sorcerer gets Bluff but not Diplomacy).
Now, if you were otherwise going up to level 20, mechanically it might not be worth losing the capstone, but for a low-mid level game it could be interesting both build-wise and concept-wise.
*shrugs* One of the chars I am currently playing (air elemental sorceress) started the game with one level of Cleric.
Because it fit her backstory (awakening to her heritage was an in-game event).
Suboptimal? Probably. Fun to play? Hell yes!
Dipping for 1 level of cleric isn't the worst thing you could do. Some of the basic 1st level domain powers are pretty useful (Travel domain bonus to speed, for example), and it never hurts to have a little healing magic on hand, even if the amount you heal becomes proportionally less due to the damage you are taking/can take, plus that 1d6 channel can have its uses, again as low as it is. And for a sorcerer, starting at 1st level with 8 instead of 6 base HP isn't an awful thing either--plus gets a few more class skills (like Diplomacy, which I've never understood why a sorcerer gets Bluff but not Diplomacy).
Now, if you were otherwise going up to level 20, mechanically it might not be worth losing the capstone, but for a low-mid level game it could be interesting both build-wise and concept-wise.
But that passes too ... we had a heavy multiclasser, and he felt massively outgunned for a good chunk of time. But you get enough above 20 and even that fades into the background.
But pure casters definitely take a hit from multiclassing; there has to be some other schtick to make it worthwhile for them.
Well; the level 20 capstone is pretty much pure unobtainium, after all... we're doing the CoT campaign, so we'll probably go up to 13, assumed the chars live that long.
*shrugs* One of the chars I am currently playing (air elemental sorceress) started the game with one level of Cleric.
Because it fit her backstory (awakening to her heritage was an in-game event).
Suboptimal? Probably. Fun to play? Hell yes!
Dipping for 1 level of cleric isn't the worst thing you could do. Some of the basic 1st level domain powers are pretty useful (Travel domain bonus to speed, for example), and it never hurts to have a little healing magic on hand, even if the amount you heal becomes proportionally less due to the damage you are taking/can take, plus that 1d6 channel can have its uses, again as low as it is. And for a sorcerer, starting at 1st level with 8 instead of 6 base HP isn't an awful thing either--plus gets a few more class skills (like Diplomacy, which I've never understood why a sorcerer gets Bluff but not Diplomacy).
Now, if you were otherwise going up to level 20, mechanically it might not be worth losing the capstone, but for a low-mid level game it could be interesting both build-wise and concept-wise.
But that passes too ... we had a heavy multiclasser, and he felt massively outgunned for a good chunk of time. But you get enough above 20 and even that fades into the background.
But pure casters definitely take a hit from multiclassing; there has to be some other schtick to make it worthwhile for them.
A single level dip isn't going to hurt even a pure caster much---it depend on what their aim for the build/concept is. Caster level is important absolutely but sometimes it gets a little overrated. It hurts most at low levels when it takes longer to qualify for a school/bloodline/domain ability or gain additional uses of existing class abilities. Multiclassing casters can hurt if you go more than 3 or so levels, unless you're really doing something like a multiclass warrior buffer (e.g., a fighter with a few spellcaster levels to buff himself and get some extra class skills--but that's a fighter concept, not a caster concept). Magical knack can help make up for caster level loss too.
in 3.0/.5 I multiclassed like a boss in order to create all sorts of unique fighting styles, like an unarmored fighter who uses weapons other than monk weapons (i bashed swashbuckler, monk, fighter and duelist together)
With PF multiclassing seemed a lot less attractive all of a sudden, and that's despite my ramshackle multiclass constructs already being underpowered. Actually it's not because multiclassing makes you weaker or anything, it's just that before APG there weren't enough classes to slap anything together from several of them that would appeal to me and since APG there are all those Archetypes that already do all the work for me.
I would probably still multiclass if the need arises, like some of the earlier posts mentioned: need a trapfinder or a few extra hit points or feats, or to meet the requirements for a PrC earlier.
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It depends.
I have a Rogue 6 who will soon be a Rogue/Fighter(Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype).
Benefits: I already have TWF feat, trapfinding/disarming role maintained, the Eclectic allows to maintain favored class bonuses, faster development of combat skills (with sneak attack damage).
I could have had a more powerful character if I just did fighter all the way, but I didn't want a fighter at first. Over the course of the campaign the PC had to fill the role of a front line attacker to tactically cover bard and sorcerer so they could be effective and flank with our cleric. He's actually on par with our later joining barbarian because of his sneak attack bonuses and his offhand weapon attacks. Funny how character development happens over the course of a campaign. But it's fun that way!
A single level dip isn't going to hurt even a pure caster much---it depend on what their aim for the build/concept is. Caster level is important absolutely but sometimes it gets a little overrated. It hurts most at low levels when it takes longer to qualify for a school/bloodline/domain ability or gain additional uses of existing class abilities. Multiclassing casters can hurt if you go more than 3 or so levels, unless you're really doing something like a multiclass warrior buffer (e.g., a fighter with a few spellcaster levels to buff himself and get some extra...*shrugs* One of the chars I am currently playing (air elemental sorceress) started the game with one level of Cleric.
Because it fit her backstory (awakening to her heritage was an in-game event).
Suboptimal? Probably. Fun to play? Hell yes!
Dipping for 1 level of cleric isn't the worst thing you could do. Some of the basic 1st level domain powers are pretty useful (Travel domain bonus to speed, for example), and it never hurts to have a little healing magic on hand, even if the amount you heal becomes proportionally less due to the damage you are taking/can take, plus that 1d6 channel can have its uses, again as low as it is. And for a sorcerer, starting at 1st level with 8 instead of 6 base HP isn't an awful thing either--plus gets a few more class skills (like Diplomacy, which I've never understood why a sorcerer gets Bluff but not Diplomacy).
Now, if you were otherwise going up to level 20, mechanically it might not be worth losing the capstone, but for a low-mid level game it could be interesting both build-wise and concept-wise.
But that passes too ... we had a heavy multiclasser, and he felt massively outgunned for a good chunk of time. But you get enough above 20 and even that fades into the background.
But pure casters definitely take a hit from multiclassing; there has to be some other schtick to make it worthwhile for them.
Exactly. When you're primarily a caster, yet your caster level lags, say, 10-15 levels beyond the rest of the party, that's when it's noticeable, even at very high levels.
MULTICLASSING MAKE ME MAN I AM TODAY.
Most of the games I get to play in are Gestalt, so you could say that I multiclass by default. Almost every character I've played-- dating all the way back to AD&D-- has been multiclass in some fashion, since my preferred character type isn't well supported.
I also have some particular level dips that I like, which most of my builds will have at least one of:
Archaeologist 1 (or 4)
Rogue 3
Monk (or Martial Artist) 2
Zen Archer 6
Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1
My current build includes three of these.
I'm currently playing a Human Fighter (Archer) 3/Ninja 1 (and will be a Ninja 2 when we level up next session.)
I wanted the skill points the ninja gave as well as the sneak attack. I figure with the right equipment I can just sit back and snipe. Using Ki for another attack or the ability to see in the dark should be a big help.
Ahhh, thread necromancy! D:
I may as well list my current multiclassed character though. For Wrath of the Rightous, my character will end up as a Sorcerer 13/Paladin 2/ Oracle of Nature 1/ Dragon Disciple 4. Archmage/Guardian.
It took a while for him to get his AC up to par, but he's very effective. He adds his Charisma to all saves, AC, CMD, and Initiative thanks to his multiclassing, and has a mythic power that lets him use his caster level as BAB when shapeshifted.