Don't take my name in vain!That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.
Pistols at dawn, Blasphemer!
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The meme I dislike is the idea that wealth by level should be enforced in any way beyond being a guide to what a reasonable amount of money is to put into an adventure or to give to new characters above level 1.
This goes double when it means permitting characters free money if they have less than WBL. I assume that only works at all if the players don't try to take advantage of it in any way.
GM: "You see a chest full of treasure..."
Player: "Could be a trap. Let's leave it. We'll wind up getting the money anyway."
GM: "From down the corridor, in the darkness, you hear a tremendous bellowing noise..."
Player: "I use my scroll of Meteor Swarm."
GM: "You're using a level 9 scroll on a creature you don't even know is dangerous?"
Player: "Yes. Oh, and now that I've used up that scroll, I'm 3825gp below my WBL. See to it, would you?"
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OK, not a meme, but something I see and have seen a lot of lately: the person trying to interpret a rule in such a way to make their life harder/more complicated and then have everyone explain why their interpretation is off instead of going with the common sense answer/interpretation.
So I think I just committed the beginnings of a rant in the wrong thread meme :)
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Some of my pet peeves...
- The whole I hate x so it should not be in the game. Examples of this are guns, psionics, high level play, options that don't ave a clear mechanical benefits.
- The whole company x can't do right...or can't do wrong attitude people have.
- The whole defense of munchkins/powergamers/optimizers can be good RPers as a 'defense for their bad behavior. Sure it is possible...just like it is possible to find albinos in nature it is just rare. Even if they are good RPers...they are just like pigs...they have to have one hell of a personality to make up the powergaming.
- That if a GM is trying to kill the party he is a bad GM.
- The whole x class is overpowered/ underpowered debates.
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Logical consistency. Most encounters don't happen in tombs where traps would make sense. Scythe traps on your front door would get tedious.
Plus the difficulty in making them meaningful. 'You get shot with an arrow.' 'Okay, pop a CLW, move on.' When they're just a tick off the sheet, it just doesn't make much sense.
Mostly they get used as hazards in combat, where trapfinding doesn't really come into play.
Traps have been totally de-clawed these days, and they ridiculously over-estimated their CR in 3.5.
At least in the days before infinite cantrips, it actually was a meaningful decision, to use one of your daily spells to detect for magic, or else spend 7.5gp for each charge off a wand.
Players still checked for traps magically, but it was less of a no-brainer, and tended to be done in places where it would make sense.
You could concentrate on it, but every time your concentration was broken, it meant expending a new slot or charge.
No-one wants to be responsible for the party being TPK'ed because you blew the last charge from the detect wand, on the toilets in the inn.
And it puts a crimp in your budget, if you're routinely spending say, an unnecessary 45gp per day.
WBL is supposed to be guide to the GM for what give out, given reasonable expenses; he's under no obligation to increase the loot to bail out any frivolous waste.
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I dislike the idea that to be a good ROLE-player, you should not try to mechanically optimize your character. In fact you should know the rules as little as possible. And God help your soul should you know the rules better than the GM does.
I believe that it is quite possible to play a Paladin that sometimes fall. And conversely that a Paladin PC's fall should not be the ultimate goal of the GM and/or other players.
I believe that alignment is only a straight-jacket if people allow it to.
I believe that it is quite possible to play a meaningful and constructive member of the party even if you are Chaotic Evil
I believe that the developers are only human and thus as prone to making mistakes as anyone.
I dislike that anyone proposing an amelioration to the system or describing what he perceives as a weakness of the rules is usually burnt on sight at the stake
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That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.
You saying it's not?
You must be thinking of a different Stormwind Fallacy than I am, since the one I'm familiar with is thoroughly discredited on around a thousand threads per year.
That Stormwind Fallacy is a logical fallacy, since it can only be held by people who don't know the difference between causation and correlation, and that the only reason there can ever be an illusion of correlation, is if one deliberately chooses to surround oneself with people who are poor roleplayers.
Rather than getting out of their rut, and meeting any one of the millions of players out there, who manage to share the fun and enjoyment of playing in a group of realistically portrayed characters who happen to, strangely, be good at the tasks their lives depend upon. Any of whom, merely by their very existence, manage to unknowingly and effortlessly kerbstomp the Stormwind Fallacy into a bloodied, obsolete pulp.
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I believe that stormwind would fall under "false dichotomy"
That Archetypes and Bloodlines are "better" or in any way different than prestige classes.Well, they certainly are different.
If I make a Pathfinder melee fighter he's going to have one archetype even if he survives to level 20.
If I made a melee fighting character in 3.5 he's probably going to have a good 10 or 12 classes by level 20.
I think Pun Pun had 12 classes by level 5.
what is this I don't even
I believe Pun Pun was a level 3 wizard 1 Master of Many Form, with some forgotten realms template.
I think that "RAW" itself is one of those memes that needs some time on the rack. It's a belief that text can stand without interpretation, or it's other incarnation is that of a mishandled club that some munchkin will try to hold over his DM.
No it is however a clear indication that the contributors need to use better more specific language.
And then the whole editing in the context of extant material thing would you know mitigate the whole "but but by the RAW a+b=teh Uber"
I mis-phrased that. The good DM I have had has not used traps either, as I recall.I'm sure if I had a good DM I could learn how to use traps in a fulfilling way, but I haven't had such a DM so far.Ouch.
That sounds like the most fulfilling way to use them.
That all martial characters are worse than all casters.
+1
I disagree on the archetype issue. I have seen absolutely NO archetypes that do not seem well balanced. A few subtlet power creep, but they are for classes that needed it (bards and monks). Most are interesting alts, and the game is much more fun with them.
Many of the PrC in 3.5 were "all that and more" classes; archtypes are more like having dozens of cool base classes.
I like most archetypes. I have yet to see one that is OVERPOWERED. UNDERPOWERED however I think exists in droves. I look at Archetypes before hand not to see how they are going to break my game but how if I let a character take archetype useless my game will break them.
Most are good. Some archetypes are (-) power creep.
Sure, the GM can change things around. The rules specifically allow for that (and even offers advice on the matter). However, it seems clear to me that the norm is that you should be able to go to a city and expect to buy a magic item without too much difficulty.I agree with you that it should be possible. Perhaps not the "without too much difficulty" part.
I have one player (or had) who literally builds his character with the idea that he will buy (or craft) specific magic items - usually +6 ability score items.
I thought there was supposed to be a random element to the magic your character aquires. I think he plays like it's a video game.
Sometimes I will see it on the boards too. "Don't take that ability, just buy a wand." That seems so, so wrong. Sure you can hope to find a wand that you want, but to just assume that you will buy one?
When did that become OK?
Simply it is not OK. If a player builds a character with a magic item in mind, I tell them they will never find it in a magic shop, so hope for random. They then usually change their idea. Not the same as building a fighter and talking about what you will do with your +5 Vorpal weapon. I mean a character not putting abilities in a stat because there is a 'belt for that'.
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That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.You saying it's not?
I am, in fact, saying it is not.
Whether one believes that optimization has any effect on role playing performance is an opinion, no matter how the question is phrased. It may be an informed opinion, an ignorant opinion, a biased opinion, or even an honest opinion, but it is still just an opinion based entirely on subjective parameters. What it is not is a Logical Fallacy.
I think the idea of the "magic shop" has always bothered me for one reason. To make it realistic, I would really have to spec out the entire shop and all of it's defenses. Just so I can be prepared for when a PC decides to rob them.
So that would mean for every town where the PC's might want to buy some magic, I would really have to be prepared for them to attack it, no?
And they won't all be well protected. Sometimes the shop owner just won't have what it takes to fend off an attack from the PC's right? So that means they would get a shop's worth of goodies.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
I almost never have a MIGHTY MAGIC MALL. This is not for everyone, but usually the hunt for magic items in a city involves at least half a session. it is on the players to tell me WHERE they start looking for this item. They then have to track it down to the merchant. Gather information is a good way to do it quickly, but I allow the PC's Gather information to find out who MIGHT have magic items.
I still stick to the City rules about what items are available.
I generally do not stat out 'magic merchants' beyond level some items and saves. If the PC's want to blitz the merchant, I call a halt and tell them to go play XBOX for an hour while I figure out all the stats. Of the city guard as well as the guardians. Or the rogues in the guild or whatever.
I roll the magic items that are DEFINITELY in the city under the description as per Gamemastery guide. To get those items is a simple matter of Gather Information and then haggling. what I wrote further above was for a item I did not roll as being in the city.
After they go through that trouble if it proves NOT to be in the city, I have lots of old SIDE TREK adventures and Book of Lairs diversions to have the merchant 'send them for it' or tell them where ti is or something appropriate to teh situation.
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That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.
As a writer of one of the guides I can assure you this does not happen.
In reality I appear next to you in bed. Under the sheets.
That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.You saying it's not?
I am, in fact, saying it is not.
Whether one believes that optimization has any effect on role playing performance is an opinion, no matter how the question is phrased. It may be an informed opinion, an ignorant opinion, a biased opinion, or even an honest opinion, but it is still just an opinion based entirely on subjective parameters. What it is not is a Logical Fallacy, and it demeans the study of Logic to try to make it so.
Ok so I am confused which one of you is Descartes and which one of you is the one pointing out the circularity of Descartes argument?
That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.You saying it's not?
I am, in fact, saying it is not.
Whether one believes that optimization has any effect on role playing performance is an opinion, no matter how the question is phrased. It may be an informed opinion, an ignorant opinion, a biased opinion, or even an honest opinion, but it is still just an opinion based entirely on subjective parameters. What it is not is a Logical Fallacy, and it demeans the study of Logic to try to make it so.
The Stormwind Fallacy is not a 'logical fallacy' in the sense that you will find an article defining it by that name in a list of logical fallacies. You will, however, find both the False Dichotomy (the assertion that "You can have an effective character, or be a good roleplayer, but not both" when there always have been and always will be countless people who do both) and post hoc ergo propter hoc and the Third Cause Fallacy (the assertion that "Bob makes his characters effective, and this causes him to be a bad roleplayer" assumes causation from the mere idea of correlation, and neglects to consider that a third factor could be at play.)
That wall of text you're fond of quoting, doesn't translate to "Any magic item available at any time, anywhere." which was the point of Dren's post.
Any item? No, you're quite correct. But it does say that common, well-stocked magic shops are the default assumption of the game.
That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.As a writer of one of the guides I can assure you this does not happen.
In reality I appear next to you in bed. Under the sheets.
your feet are so cold.
But its worth it to play a Mystic Theurge of Sheyln.
I'm sure if I had a good DM I could learn how to use traps in a fulfilling way, but I haven't had such a DM so far.Ouch.
There are quite a few overpowered ones. Master Summoner in particular.
There's no real reason to take vanilla gunslinger over pistolero or musket master. Beastmorph alchemist trades out less used stuff for Wildshape (effectively).
I'm still not sure what the drawback of the black blade magus is, other than delayed access to arcana.
Also, the siegemage is totz OP.
That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.As a writer of one of the guides I can assure you this does not happen.
In reality I appear next to you in bed. Under the sheets.
I, for one, would like to thank you for the...interesting...evening. I'd have left more than spare change on the bed stand, but, the economy, and all that.
I, for one, would like to thank you for the...interesting...evening. I'd have left more than spare change on the bed stand, but, the economy, and all that.That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.As a writer of one of the guides I can assure you this does not happen.
In reality I appear next to you in bed. Under the sheets.
No problem. Just apply this cream three times a day and sit on this donut when at your computer.
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No problem. Just apply this cream three times a day and sit on this donut when at your computer.I, for one, would like to thank you for the...interesting...evening. I'd have left more than spare change on the bed stand, but, the economy, and all that.That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.As a writer of one of the guides I can assure you this does not happen.
In reality I appear next to you in bed. Under the sheets.
I lold. Also, Dot.
Of course the meaning of "well-stocked" is one of those things open to GM interpretation. My definition of well-stocked is a shop that has all of the routine spell components that a spellcaster would routinely need and a preset list of magic items that might be available, in other words, I stock magic shops just like I would treasure drops, which is fully in accord with the guidelines given. They're not Sears Roebuck catalog operations that have 75 percent of the book items in stock.Any item? No, you're quite correct. But it does say that common, well-stocked magic shops are the default assumption of the game.
That wall of text you're fond of quoting, doesn't translate to "Any magic item available at any time, anywhere." which was the point of Dren's post.Any item? No, you're quite correct. But it does say that common, well-stocked magic shops are the default assumption of the game.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table 15–1). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found
for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table 15–2 to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community’s base value.
If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week.
Gamemastery Guide also tells us that base value increases significantly if the settlement is rich, has a lot of casters, has a significant black market, attracts tourists, or is strategically located. (+10-30% for each.)
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That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.You saying it's not?
You must be thinking of a different Stormwind Fallacy than I am, since the one I'm familiar with is thoroughly discredited on around a thousand threads per year.
That Stormwind Fallacy is a logical fallacy, since it can only be held by people who don't know the difference between causation and correlation, and that the only reason there can ever be an illusion of correlation, is if one deliberately chooses to surround oneself with people who are poor roleplayers.
Rather than getting out of their rut, and meeting any one of the millions of players out there, who manage to share the fun and enjoyment of playing in a group of realistically portrayed characters who happen to, strangely, be good at the tasks their lives depend upon. Any of whom, merely by their very existence, manage to unknowingly and effortlessly kerbstomp the Stormwind Fallacy into a bloodied, obsolete pulp.
Curb-stomp.
Whether one believes that optimization has any effect on role playing performance is an opinion, no matter how the question is phrased. It may be an informed opinion, an ignorant opinion, a biased opinion, or even an honest opinion, but it is still just an opinion based entirely on subjective parameters. What it is not is a Logical Fallacy.
It is fallacious reasoning, and uses a number of fallacies including but not limited to
-False Dilema
-questionable cause
The thing that really eggs me on is that any time anyone suggests making a Rogue/Wizard multi-class character the "Bard Squad" rolls in and starts going on and on about how playing a Rogue/Wizard is pointless and how everyone should just play Bards.
Some people want to be able to disarm traps and not have a god awful spell list darn it!
The thing that really eggs me on is that any time anyone suggests making a Rogue/Wizard multi-class character the "Bard Squad" rolls in and starts going on and on about how playing a Rogue/Wizard is pointless and how everyone should just play Bards.
Some people want to be able to disarm traps and not have a god awful spell list darn it!
Bards have a great spell list.
Bards have a great spell list.The thing that really eggs me on is that any time anyone suggests making a Rogue/Wizard multi-class character the "Bard Squad" rolls in and starts going on and on about how playing a Rogue/Wizard is pointless and how everyone should just play Bards.
Some people want to be able to disarm traps and not have a god awful spell list darn it!
Yea, especially after APG came around. That one book made the spell list one of the best in the game, IMO.
The inspiration and finale line of spells, arcane concordance...
Will it open a can of worms if I ask what the Stormwind Fallacy is or a can of wyrms?
So here it goes...
What is the Stormwind Fallacy?
Bards have a great spell list.The thing that really eggs me on is that any time anyone suggests making a Rogue/Wizard multi-class character the "Bard Squad" rolls in and starts going on and on about how playing a Rogue/Wizard is pointless and how everyone should just play Bards.
Some people want to be able to disarm traps and not have a god awful spell list darn it!
Yea, especially after APG came around. That one book made the spell list one of the best in the game, IMO.
The inspiration and finale line of spells, arcane concordance...
Allegro is one of my new favorite spells
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What is the Stormwind Fallacy?
In a nutshell, the sw fallacy is the idea that role playing and optimization are two polar opposites. Optimizing your character inhibits role play and role play inhibits your optimization. You can make a better character by having less role play and you can role play better by throwing optimization to the wind.
Personally i think terming it a fallacy is correct. There are people who are good at roll playing, role playing, both, and neither.
What is the Stormwind Fallacy?
In a nutshell, the sw fallacy is the idea that role playing and optimization are two polar opposites. Optimizing your character inhibits role play and role play inhibits your optimization. You can make a better character by having less role play and you can role play better by throwing optimization to the wind.
Personally i think terming it a fallacy is correct. There are people who are good at roll playing, role playing, both, and neither.
Call it what term you wish. What it is and what's important is that it's truth.
Call it what term you wish. What it is and what's important is that it's truth.
That's what's important to you. What's important to me (and should be important to anyone who cares about the study of Logic) is that posters don't try to justify their personal opinions and prejudices by hiding behind and misrepresenting Logic. Every aspect of the "Stormwind Fallacy" is subjective; there is absolutely nothing objective about any aspect of it. It consists of nothing but opinion. Those opinions can be right, they can be wrong, they can even be patently ridiculous. What they cannot be is a violation of the rules of Logic, i.e. a Logical Fallacy.
Also, TarkXT, I'm going to need some of your financial info as I believe that child support may shortly be an issue.
So you don't disagree that it is a fallacy, just that it is a logical fallacy?
repeated for emphasis
Also, are you talking about symbolic logic?
kool, thread's still live. Dotting at bottom o page 5 plz.
Also, TarkXT, I'm going to need some of your financial info as I believe that child support may shortly be an issue.
I've got about a buck twenty five from your nightstand. And another fifty from hocking your panties. But I blew all that on hooch, blow, and paizo pdf's.