We are starting up a campaign using the core rule book, APG, UC, and UM (no 3.5 stuff). One of our players is truly cursed by the dice gods. We're talking about characters that can go for an entire session without landing a hit, or even rolling a good skill check.
So my question is: what are the best classes, or ways to play a class, that will minimize the effect of being a terrible dice-roller?
The player in question is very good at role playing and gets very involved in the story line of each campaign, but is getting pretty frustrated with being useless so often.
Thanks for any suggestions.
We are starting up a campaign using the core rule book, APG, UC, and UM (no 3.5 stuff). One of our players is truly cursed by the dice gods. We're talking about characters that can go for an entire session without landing a hit, or even rolling a good skill check.
So my question is: what are the best classes, or ways to play a class, that will minimize the effect of being a terrible dice-roller?
The player in question is very good at role playing and gets very involved in the story line of each campaign, but is getting pretty frustrated with being useless so often.
Thanks for any suggestions.
buffer-cleric, buffer-bard or control-wizard. The other players and badguys make the rolls.
I have seen these terms thrown around before. What exactly is a controller wizard? Is it a particular build or archetype? Is it just a matter of what spells you pick? What feats/magic items/spells/etc. does a controller wizard have?
|
I have seen these terms thrown around before. What exactly is a controller wizard? Is it a particular build or archetype? Is it just a matter of what spells you pick? What feats/magic items/spells/etc. does a controller wizard have?
As in Battlefield Control. Environment-changing spells like Grease and Web fall into this category but you've also got Mind Control like Charm Person and Sleep. For a caster, basically, you're looking for any spell with set values that doesn't require the caster to roll many/any dice. Up your relevant casting scores, take feats like Spell Focus that raise spell DCs, stuff like that. If the player is clever and good at thinking on his feet, he might enjoy Illusion magic.
Hunt the boards for good builds. I'm sure you'll find plenty.
Master Summoner.
Then the primary offensive capability of the character is not based on ability scores.
Master Summoner.
Then the primary offensive capability of the character is not based on ability scores.
He would, however, be making all the attack rolls for the summoned whatevers, and in his initial post said that it would be usually miss-miss-miss-miss, etc- due to bad rolling luck.
|
|
I'd suggest Wizard or cleric, and possible druid. Stick to teh aforementioned spell selections without rolls or saves. Battlefield maniputlation is your friend, and so is utility casting.
Beyond that, maybe get a bard npc to lay some inspires or an inquisitor to share judgements as a boost to bad rolls.
I had a player like this. In 3.5, I designed a warlock for him that was pretty much guaranteed to hit on a natural 2 or higher. It was basically designed to make touch attacks or ranged touch attacks against flat-footed opponents. There were several ways to accomplish this: invisiblity, see in darkness + deeper darkness, Improved Feint + that invocation that gave +6 to Bluff, stuff like that.
In Pathfinder, maybe look at the magus? They have a decent BAB and can cast several spells that use touch or ranged touch attacks.
Maybe a Ranger or archer Fighter (OR GUNSLINGER), using a combination of Vital Strike and Improved Precise Shot or whatever feat it is that lets you ignore armor....Pinpoint Targeting....which requires a BAB of "only" +16.
Maybe a Gunslinger with a Ring of Invisiblity?
I would suggest either a witch or gunslinger. Witch hexes are nasty and they automatically hit even if the target saves. If the target saves it lasts for one round. Atleast for evil eye. Gunslingers use touch AC for attack rolls which are much less then a check against AC. Matter of fact, a player in a Kingmaker games chose gunslinger because she rolls bad too and hasn't regretted it once. The choices given in earlier posts are fine as well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't believe so many people are entertaining the absurd notion that the player in question actually is possessed of some kind of "bad dice roll curse." Especially with an entire thread already dedicated to the notion of bad luck having made the rounds all week.
My advice is to stop encouraging him to think this insane notion that he has "bad luck," or whatever, is true, and for you to stop believing it as well. What is really happening is that he made a bad roll or two at a crucial moment, and you now are just confirming his "curse" by only paying attention to subsequent bad rolls, and ignoring all the good ones he is doubtless also making.
If you can document (as in on video) that he really does consistently roll poorly, and that this is not group confirmation bias, then for Frith's sake, buy him a new set of dice. Clearly those he is using are warped or otherwise misshapen.
What if the player wants to minimize the effect of die rolls on his performance, Bruunwald? I think this discussion would be quite helpful.
That's fine. But doing so can only start with a clear understanding that the player is not "cursed" with bad rolls.
truly i feel the pain of my luck deprived brethren.
The best solution is either a buffing cleric or a SOS sorcerer with heighten spell and a spell that targets a fort, reflex, and will save
A buffing cleric has no dice to roll.
The sorcerer never rolls the dice, he forces other people to roll the dice.
Summoner.
I can't believe so many people are entertaining the absurd notion that the player in question actually is possessed of some kind of "bad dice roll curse." ....
No he is not "Cursed" with bad luck, but he could be the kind of person who just doesn't roll well. And I clearly understand that any idividual die roll is independent of the rest. But in such a large group called "gamers" who roll X number of dice rolls per week, there are statistically likely a few people who end up with mostly poor (low numbers and/or poorly timed) rolls. I know, I am one of them.
Lets take crits for example. While I do roll the occasional crit, most of them are against mooks (that I would have killed anyway), 3.5 undead (that are immune) or in other ways less than useful. The number of memorable (timely and useful) crits I have had in the last 10 years can be counted on 1 hand, and I remember them all. Meanwhile, a guy in my group crits just about every session. Way more often than statistics (given weapons used, number of attacks taken, etc...) say he should. And we have watched, he doesn't cheat...he doesn't have to. It also doesn't seem to matter what dice are being used or even if it's a computer dice program. He rolls more crits than everyone in our group of 4(on average) combined.
Trainwreck
I would suggest a spellcaster of some sort. Someone who has many options, so he can pick the most optimal option.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would argue that there are three explanations for this behavior: confirmation bias, warped dice, and inadvertent control over your rolls.
Might I suggest teaching them to actually roll the dice, rather than basically turn it over with a light roll? There's a reason why dealers in casinos police craps tables for players who don't roll the dice to the end of the table: the less it turns, the more control you have over what comes up. If he's just dropping it on a gaming book rather than really getting it to roll over and over for a distance, he's probably inadvertently controlling his dice rolls in the worst way possible.
|
Witches are great for making other people roll their dice more often, don't worry about casting spells in combat to much, hexes do so much more and allow for you to do more than a 15 minute workday since the largest restriction is one/day for each target.
I'd recommend going the agility patron just for haste at 6th level
Similarly, bicycles continue to baffle science. There is no satisfactory model of physics that explains how a bicycle is able to stay up while ridden, or be used as a method of travel.
I also call BS
Please tell me you will use a point-buy system to generate characters...
This is also the better choice.
Someone who consistently "rolls bad" doesn't have bad díce; they just aren't very good at building mechanics driven characters. If you only add say, five to a d20, then no, you won't hit a lot, or get the relevant DC.
You say he loves the RP aspect. Players that I know like that will often go out of their way to avoid the semblance of power gaming. This add to verisimilitude, which includes, IMHO, a lot more misses than hits. If your players hit consistently, then combat generally lasts less than 10 rounds. Which, when put into a real-time perspective, seems awfully quick. But I digress.
TL;DR: What is the player adding to those dice rolls that makes him miss so often?
I suffer from this same predicament, but find it more interesting to play a character that only needs to hit once, and gets lots of chances to hit. Play a mounted fury barbarian with a lance. When you pounce, it won't matter that you almost never hit. As long as you hit once you'll still out damage your entire party. Crit and whatever you were poking will turn into paste. Play small sized if you dungeon crawl a lot. See if the DM would allow the Boon Companion Feat and open up the animal companion list to search for things more interesting to ride.
If yes, get a Velociraptor for small sized or T-Rex for large sized. T-Rex will destroy things with power attack, Powerful Bite and Rage. With Haste it will have 3 powerful bites plus that add +20 each before damage dice as well as 2 claw attacks. Velociraptor will get you a terrifying charge range. Make sure to get a wand or Feather Step or a loving buff bard/druid/ranger to let your mount charge over difficult terrain.
Something along the lines of:
Human: Heart of the fields or Halfling
1) Power Attack, Mounted Combat
2) Ferocious Mount
3) Ride By Attack
4) Beast Totem, Lesser
5) Spirited Charge
6) Beast Totem
7) Boon Companion
8) Ferocious Mount, Greater
9) Improved Sunder
10) Beast Totem, Greater
If no boon companion and no alternate mounts, drop the Mounted Fury and swap out Ferocious Mount, Ferocious Mount Greater and Boon Companion for Improved Sunder then move into the Spell Sunder rage power chain with your feats. Hop on a war trained whatever and destroy.
Later on he can get strength surge for this sunders, then it won't matter. As long as he doesn't roll a one he can sunder anything.
This is an alternative if he doesn't want to play a caster. *cough*
Lets take crits for example. While I do roll the occasional crit, most of them are against mooks (that I would have killed anyway), 3.5 undead (that are immune) or in other ways less than useful. The number of memorable (timely and useful) crits I have had in the last 10 years can be counted on 1 hand, and I remember them all. Meanwhile, a guy in my group crits just about every session. Way more often than statistics (given weapons used, number of attacks taken, etc...) say he should. And we have watched, he doesn't cheat...he doesn't have to. It also doesn't seem to matter what dice are being used or even if it's a computer dice program. He rolls more crits than everyone in our group of 4(on average) combined.
I don't intellectually believe in that... but since it happens to me all the time, I'm beginning to be an almost believer. I'm also that guy who rolls more crits than everyone else combined. Not only that, but mostly natural 20s. I just bought a second set of dice and first game I play, double natural 20 on attack rolls... It's almost a waste of my keen scimitar. :P
Not much more to say on the actual topic, though. I'd probably go for a Charisma-based character, since you have plenty to shine outside combats if you roll too bad. And being good at something is very important to have fun, at least for me. That said, many character types with little dice-rolling have Charisma as a primary ability, so it might be two birds with one stone.
Make sure his/her d20 isn't really a d12. It's happened at our table.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not "luck" or "unluck", it's statistics, it's all about the bell curve. Take 3d6 for example; we all know that any single individual 3d6 roll is much more likely to roll an 11 than an 18 (approx. 12.5% to .5%). But statistically, if you roll enough times you will get the character with 6 18's, and you will also get the character with 6 3's.
For the population of Gamers rolling X number of dice rolls over the course of time, isn't that a bell curve of outcomes. The vast majority of people have average "luck", but some have bad and some have good "luck", the outside ends of the bell curve. Yes, I took statistics in college, but I haven't used it for many years. So I am a bit rusty on details.
Look at it another way. The more rolls you make, statistically the results should "even out" with the same number of 20's and 1's rolled. If it doesn't, that means there is a bias. So while each individual roll is independent, statistically they can be lumped together and they "even out" (just ask casinos and insurance companies). So take Mr "lucky", who manages to roll lot's of crit's (or scores big at a casino). Statistically, someone somewhere is rolling less crits (or losing money at a casino). I just happen to be the guy on the low end of that exchange. Casinos do not lose money.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to make a list of them and give them to the player.
As for the existence of bad dice luck... Objectively, I know that we all get the same chances, but I have watched this player roll poorly way more often than statistics would suggest.
Anyway, even if bad dice luck doesn't exist, this is still an interesting topic. Some people don't like to be at the mercy of the dice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would also suggest watching how the player rolls as well. Sometimes you accidentallycup the die and end up screwing up your own rolls. Players also have sets of dice they love to use all the time, but they might be bad quality due to glitter, air bubbles or non standard die format (aka spin downs or ones that done add up to 21 on opposite ends added together.) We have a player that seems to always roll below average numbers, one will always roll a 1 on a Fort save, and I roll high low consistently. My dice are 16 years old, are non standard format and have been nicknamed by everyone "PC Killer."
Anyway, even if bad dice luck doesn't exist, this is still an interesting topic. Some people don't like to be at the mercy of the dice.
Very true, I am one of them.
I change my vote from Summoner to Wizard (battlefield controller/buffer). That takes luck completely out of the equation.
|
|
We are starting up a campaign using the core rule book, APG, UC, and UM (no 3.5 stuff). One of our players is truly cursed by the dice gods. We're talking about characters that can go for an entire session without landing a hit, or even rolling a good skill check.
So my question is: what are the best classes, or ways to play a class, that will minimize the effect of being a terrible dice-roller?
The player in question is very good at role playing and gets very involved in the story line of each campaign, but is getting pretty frustrated with being useless so often.
Thanks for any suggestions.
my personal favorite is a witch. misfortune,cackle, evil eye, and ice tomb make a witch awesome for a person who rolls low regularly.
edit* and as someone who has gone over 1 year without critting during a weekly game, has rolled 7 1's in a row using different dice each time, has gone an entire session (more times then i remember) not rolling over a 9... this crap does happen and to some people seems to happen very often.
We have a gamer that has an average roll of about 17+, and she's married to a guy who averages about 5 or 6.
But watch out for those nasty old fashioned d10s that look like d20s. 1-10 twice instead of 1-20.
They are the eeeeveeeeel!!!!!
...But in such a large group called "gamers" who roll X number of dice rolls per week, there are statistically likely a few people who end up with mostly poor (low numbers and/or poorly timed) rolls. I know, I am one of them.
It's quite possible that so far in your life you have had less luck in your dice rolls than average.
However, if there aren't magic spirits or hidden weights interfering with your dice, then it is just as likely that you will have good luck in the future as bad luck. And the guy in the group who gets a lot of criticals? If the dice are normal dice rolled normally, there is no reason to think he will get an unusual amount in the future.Otherwise, the lucky people would be able to make a profit in the casino, and the unlucky people would stop going to casinos, and the casinos would go out of business.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Similarly, bicycles continue to baffle science. There is no satisfactory model of physics that explains how a bicycle is able to stay up while ridden, or be used as a method of travel.I also call BS
It's due to angular momentum stored in the moving bicycle's wheels. I've actually worked out the equations in class on that one. It's the same effect that allows a gyroscope to spin around a pivot without falling.
As for the OP, playing a buffer or debuffer minimizes personal die rolls. The bard and witch specialize in this form of combat. I'd recommend one of those.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
some hilariously bad understanding of physics and statistics ITT.
a dice roll is completely random. there is no such thing as a "bad dice roller".
Actually, this is not entirely true. There are many factors that can affect the outcome of dice rolls in subtle ways, and over time tend to skew the outcome of rolls. Imperfections in dice, edges that are not perfectly cut (like most dice that are tumbled in production), the way you hold or throw the dice, slight weight balance issues, etc.
I am by no means an expert, but what I saw in these GameScience videos was pretty eye-opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34&feature=related
I tend to be a bad dice roller and I have a friend who tends to be a good dice roller (better than average). We kept track of all of our rolls over the course of 5 games and more often than not, I rolled poorly and he rolled well. We did not count what the check was for, but did take note of the die rolled (d4, d20, etc.) and the result compared to the average roll (if we had rolled the middle number on the die (3 on a d6, 10 on a 20, etc.). We then switched dice, and the results were pretty similar (I still rolled poorly).
I understand that theoretically, with perfectly cut dice the outcome should be random, but I still feel that there is something to the lucky/unlucky rolling.
As for the OP, I quite enjoy the dual-cursed oracle. It grants/forces myself and any other thing (animals, other pcs, enemies) a reroll once per game day with the misfortune revelation. This can make a huge difference when you or a friend fails a crucial roll, or when the enemy is about to crit you or makes an important save. MISFORTUNE and roll it again. Eternal hope racial variant for gnome is also helpful, it gives a single d20 reroll onec per gaming day. you could also buy a faction shirt, which gives you another d20 reroll per session.
I would suggest a sorc with NO ray spells. The others now have to roll saves vs. your spells. Try to concentrate on spells that bypass SR so you don't have to make a bunch caster level checks. Don't take summons because then you have to make rolls for all them.
Take low intel so you have no skills. No one will expect you to be making many skill checks. put the few skill points you have into a little used charisma skill so you don't need to check often and almost can't fail when you do, because you should have a very high charisma.
...Similarly, bicycles continue to baffle science. There is no satisfactory model of physics that explains how a bicycle is able to stay up while ridden, or be used as a method of travel...
Uhmmm...
Not.
This is fairly easy physics problem that is very common in 2nd year university physics courses. Some of the better high school teachers cover it.
A better example would be the bumble bee. Up until about 15-20 years ago the mathematics could not derive the flight characteristics of this bug. Yet they could still fly.
However, even then the scientists knew the models were simply not accurate enough at the boundary conditions.
that's wrong as well. insect flight has been well understood "forever". some scientist in the 1930s postulated that they shouldn't theoretically be able to fly, but retracted the opinion once he learned how stupid it was. but somehow, that one guy's misstep has resulted in the common belief that scientists think that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly.
I didn't say scietists thought bumble bees shouldn't be able to fly. I said the model was not good enough to mathematically demonstrate it. I don't remember exactly when (I think it was early 90's) before the modeling became accurate enough to duplicate reality.