@umbral reaver: double point cost for charisma sounds good. Though those undead with classes not focusing on either con or cha may be upset.
@ talonhawke: what do you mean by one level adjustment minimum? I don't remember mention of level adjustments in the ARG playtest. ( forgive me if i'm wrong ahead of time! )
There is a chart near the begining with level equivelances based on the number of points spent.
Ah. No i did see that one. I thought maybe a there was a level adjustment rule somewhere. Still, you make a good point. I guess undead being 16 point cost almost certainly means that. Not that i'm that worried either.
Nah to me its all in how you plan your adventures. Now for most situations the undead is in just as much danger it only gets bad if your running something like Carrion Crown and the undead guy is immune to most of the fights big tricks.
|
IMO instead of having fast healing, undead such as vamps should have a higher AC, higher DR to make them harder to hit, and the only way they should recup HPs is by sucking blood from victims (i.e. make the blood sucking ability better, and drop the silly level drain backhanded slap... i never understood that one...)
Yeah. I haven't liked Vampires in D&D since 3.0 came out. I wrote my own vampire template that I used last time I wanted vampires. But that was back in 3.5.It didnt have the level drain slam attacks if I recall correctly. It also wasn't a +8 in CR. Sheesh.
There is a chart near the begining with level equivelances based on the number of points spent.
That chart doesnt affect your leveling rate. That chart just affects average party level for when the GM is designing encounters. Food for thought.
As for the attributes, I say just adjust it for 5 attributes. If theyre rolling, they roll 5 stats. If you're using point buy, give them 5/6 what everyone else gets. Be nice, and round up. For 20 pt? They have 17. But then. for point buy, that may not be fair. I think I'd factor in the stuff they can buy down. So 20 points gives you (when adjusted): 44 points, and everything starts at 7, and can't be bought down further. 5/6 of that is 37.-20 to bring the remaining 5 attributes back to 10. They still get 17. I'm not certain it would work out the same way for other point buy builds, but it might.
The other Charisma based classes get only minor effect from having Charisma for Fort and Hitpoints. Note that the "Destroyed at 0 hiptoints" means there's no Con/Cha benefit of negative hitpoints.
The problem you want to look out for is synergy. While gaining a few extra hitpoints than they would have before isn't the end of the world for Bards and Sorcerers... what can be really bothersome is Charisma to Fortitude save, and then Divine Grace adding Charisma to Fortitude save again. That's literally a doubling up on something that wasn't really intended (applying Charisma twice to the same save, where before it was Con and then Charisma).
Couple that with extra hitpoints on a mainly physical combatant class, and you are approaching scary stacking zone.
However, if you rule that Lay of Hands doesn't heal the undead paladin, then that's a huge loss, and I'd stop worrying about the synergy right there.
Talonhawke wrote:
There is a chart near the begining with level equivelances based on the number of points spent.That chart doesnt affect your leveling rate. That chart just affects average party level for when the GM is designing encounters. Food for thought.
Thanks for further clarification on that, Darkholme. I didn't think there was level adjustment mentioned per se
The other Charisma based classes get only minor effect from having Charisma for Fort and Hitpoints. Note that the "Destroyed at 0 hiptoints" means there's no Con/Cha benefit of negative hitpoints.
The problem you want to look out for is synergy. While gaining a few extra hitpoints than they would have before isn't the end of the world for Bards and Sorcerers... what can be really bothersome is Charisma to Fortitude save, and then Divine Grace adding Charisma to Fortitude save again. That's literally a doubling up on something that wasn't really intended (applying Charisma twice to the same save, where before it was Con and then Charisma).
Couple that with extra hitpoints on a mainly physical combatant class, and you are approaching scary stacking zone.
However, if you rule that Lay of Hands doesn't heal the undead paladin, then that's a huge loss, and I'd stop worrying about the synergy right there.
Well put Kaisoku. I think those are all good points. There may yet be other synergies for other non- paladin builds as yet unmentioned, but hey - you find that all over the place. I think trying to maintain a strictly level playing field would take the fun out of variety and specialisation.
As for lay on hands, i might allow it as i said before as a cell repair system, but then again taking into account your above- mentioned synergies, maybe not. Would be a great flavour based reason for the limitation, that's for sure. Healing living allies I could see allowing or disallowing. Don't want to penalise the heartless paladins too much! ;p
I have a bit of a crazy question here ... why not just give undead creatures a Constitution score? While all undead are immune to poison and the like, it seems reasonable that some undead will be tougher than others, have denser bones, thicker flesh, more resistance to being melted or disintegrated because of the composition of their bodies. This toughness would be based on the physical body of the undead creature, not what ever Charisma represents. That being the case, why not just give them a Con score and be done with it?
Wargarble. The only undead things around here lately are the threads.
|
|
I have a bit of a crazy question here ... why not just give undead creatures a Constitution score? While all undead are immune to poison and the like, it seems reasonable that some undead will be tougher than others, have denser bones, thicker flesh, more resistance to being melted or disintegrated because of the composition of their bodies. This toughness would be based on the physical body of the undead creature, not what ever Charisma represents. That being the case, why not just give them a Con score and be done with it?
Because "Under the hood" details like that is why some people like 3.5 so much. Creatures that aren't fundamentally "Alive" are designated as such by not having a constitution score. it's a cool and "transgressive" thing for them to have.
Since undead no longer have d12 HD, and constructs gain bonus HP based on size, undead needed some way to have the right amount of HP for their level. Back in 3.5, the "Unholy Toughness" ability (which did exactly what undead now automatically get) got slapped on pretty much every new undead monster in Monster Manual 3 and after.