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As someone who has been DM'ing on and off for awhile I have thrown countless MM, bestiary, and custom monsters at my players, but actually ended up backtracking on one of my big-bads after creation. She was a Nymph Vampire with the advanced template and 4 levels of Oracle (Time). Ended up looking at the things saves and AC + the saves my party would need to beat the thing and basically made it screw with the party but the encounter ended up being a romp in her flesh golem pit with her AP spawn lieutenant. I am sure others have had the same problem with their big-bads, and would be interested to hear what creations other DMs had to sideline.
If we just go by the ones in the book, the necrophidius and seugathi are pretty rough.
As someone who has been DM'ing on and off for awhile I have thrown countless MM, bestiary, and custom monsters at my players, but actually ended up backtracking on one of my big-bads after creation. She was a Nymph Vampire with the advanced template and 4 levels of Oracle (Time). Ended up looking at the things saves and AC + the saves my party would need to beat the thing and basically made it screw with the party but the encounter ended up being a romp in her flesh golem pit with her AP spawn lieutenant. I am sure others have had the same problem with their big-bads, and would be interested to hear what creations other DMs had to sideline.
It's a 3.5 monster in Sandstorm but the Marrospawn Abomination, when played correctly... is horrifying
3.5 paragon pseudonatural (ELH style) tarrasque demi-lich with 60 levels of sorcerer and 60 levels of druid
That's probably disappointingly easy for its CR.
The party will be ECL 155 if we decide to put them at level equal to its CR. At that point things are just ridiculous.
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3.5 paragon pseudonatural (ELH style) tarrasque demi-lich with 60 levels of sorcerer and 60 levels of druidThat's probably disappointingly easy for its CR.
The party will be ECL 155 if we decide to put them at level equal to its CR. At that point things are just ridiculous.
Level 155. Yes, I remember. Well, things are often wacky at the lower levels.
3.5 paragon pseudonatural (ELH style) tarrasque demi-lich with 60 levels of sorcerer and 60 levels of druidThat's probably disappointingly easy for its CR.
The party will be ECL 155 if we decide to put them at level equal to its CR. At that point things are just ridiculous.
It wouldn't be CR 155. Since 3.5 rules (which are specified) decided non-associated-ness by number of HD rather than by CR, the first 48 levels of each class would only provide half CR each. So, the class levels only provide 72 points of CR. Adding the 20 CR for the base Tarrasque, we're at 92. Then there's +8 for demilich, +15 for paragon, and +10 for pseudonatural, for a total CR of 125 :)
Which is still quite likely far too high ;)
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3.5 paragon pseudonatural (ELH style) tarrasque demi-lich with 60 levels of sorcerer and 60 levels of druidThat's probably disappointingly easy for its CR.
The party will be ECL 155 if we decide to put them at level equal to its CR. At that point things are just ridiculous.
You misunderstand. That's for a 1st level party. For every APL over one, you should add 20 levels each of sorcerer and druid.
And did I mention that he has the Leadership feat?
Okay, I think we can completely ignore Kthulhu's posts from now on.
This thread, as far as I can tell, is about creatures that are difficult for their CR.
It's not a place to be children and shout 'I can think of a bigger number than you' until we run out of breath.
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Back on topic: Drowned, from Monster Manual 3, are very dangerous for their CR of 8. They don't look that dangerous at first glance, but the Drowning Aura is a TPK waiting to happen unless the party is forewarned that such a creature awaits them. Especially combined with its 150 hit points and fast healing.
Oh, and who can forget MM2's Adamantine Horror. CR 9, but with disintegrate, implosion, and disjunction, all as At-Will spell-like abilities.
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Augh. The drowned. TPK in a bottle right there.
Also...
THAT DAMN CRAB
You know the one.
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Okay, I think we can completely ignore Kthulhu's posts from now on.
This thread, as far as I can tell, is about creatures that are difficult for their CR.
It's not a place to be children and shout 'I can think of a bigger number than you' until we run out of breath.
Pshaa! Just because you're talking about Golarion and I'm talking about Pathfinderized Call of Cthulhu d20 don't be acting all high'n'mighty.
Pshaa! Just because you're talking about Golarion and I'm talking about Pathfinderized Call of Cthulhu d20 don't be acting all high'n'mighty.Okay, I think we can completely ignore Kthulhu's posts from now on.
This thread, as far as I can tell, is about creatures that are difficult for their CR.
It's not a place to be children and shout 'I can think of a bigger number than you' until we run out of breath.
~laughter~ Still, that monster is a total WHIMP!!! A lightweight! Comeon! You can do better than that!
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Augh. The drowned. TPK in a bottle right there.
Also...
THAT DAMN CRAB
You know the one.
Er... Yeah I know that one...
Just for those who might not know (not me of course, I absolutely know what you are talking about) could you please elaborate?
If only for the sake of those poor unfortunates who may be stumped?
Scroll down until you see Monstrous Crab.
It's infamous for being a CR 6ish creature labeled as a CR 3. It slaughters entire parties with ease.
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Back on topic: Drowned, from Monster Manual 3, are very dangerous for their CR of 8. They don't look that dangerous at first glance, but the Drowning Aura is a TPK waiting to happen unless the party is forewarned that such a creature awaits them. Especially combined with its 150 hit points and fast healing.
Oh, and who can forget MM2's Adamantine Horror. CR 9, but with disintegrate, implosion, and disjunction, all as At-Will spell-like abilities.
For those that don't know (i.e. me) What was the Drowning Aura?
A 30 foot aura of 'save or your hit points drop to zero'. Next round your hit points drop to -1. Round after that, you die.
Oh, and it had something like 20 hit dice, as a CR 8 undead.
... and would be interested to hear what creations other DMs had to sideline.
Long time ago in 3.0 the party had an arch enemy that was a gnome illusionist rogue that put everything into escape and survival. He never tried to fight the party. He just followed them around and messed up their plans.
Hit them with faerie fire when setting up an ambush.Told the pursuing troll army where they were hiding.
Warned the authorities when they were planning a jailbreak.
Etc... then he would run away.
They were getting too frustrated. So, I eventually had to have him amke some stupid mistakes so the PC's could kill him. They could see and hit him long/often enough to take him out before he would escape again.
I'll second the Drowned...I've nearly killed and have been killed by one of those abominations of the CR system several times.
as if the drowning aura wasn't bad enough, the fact they hit for like d8+18 sucks pretty hard too.
The greater doppleganger in 3.5 was pretty retarded for its CR.
I gave it 10 levels in the master shapeshifter PrC, which gave it wildshape abilities that put a level 20 druid to shame. Then using its alternate power, it could assume the identity of other creature's it had killed. When it absorbed identities, it gained all the class levels and abilities of the creature it absorbed. The only limit was the the max class levels it could absorb was limited by its hit dice. With the level of master shapeshifter, he was CR17 with 19 hit dice.
So basically I have a CR17 wildshaping doppleganger on steroids who could become a level 19 fighter, rogue, or sorcerer on demand.
The worst part was the doppleganer was a master of political intrigue, so he was hiding behind several layers of patsies who had no idea they were involved in anything nefarious.
Play PC Classes as ennemies. Those are often really fun for DM and for player.
Prep time is the issue here for any GM, and making a throwaway PC party as enemies is not something I'm inclined to do; this gets worse as level increases.
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Will o' Wisps. Abnormally high AC for their CR (25 on a CR 6, I think), a touch attack that can't miss anything at its level, naturally invisibility and a ridiculous fly speed with an equally ridiculous Acrobatics score. Sure, it's stopped by any energy resistance, but I don't know a lot of parties at 6th level that can protect every member of its group, especially since the Wisp is highly intelligent (15), enough that it might simply wait-out any protective spells with its invisibility and stealth and then return to wreak havoc. Couple that with possible fast healing and Magic Immunity, and you have a menace that can wreak unprepared parties.
Oh, and I third The Drowned. Almost had two ten-year veteran players quit a game because of double character loss to those blasted things.
The greater doppleganger in 3.5 was pretty retarded for its CR.
I gave it 10 levels in the master shapeshifter PrC, which gave it wildshape abilities that put a level 20 druid to shame. Then using its alternate power, it could assume the identity of other creature's it had killed. When it absorbed identities, it gained all the class levels and abilities of the creature it absorbed. The only limit was the the max class levels it could absorb was limited by its hit dice. With the level of master shapeshifter, he was CR17 with 19 hit dice.
So basically I have a CR17 wildshaping doppleganger on steroids who could become a level 19 fighter, rogue, or sorcerer on demand.
The worst part was the doppleganer was a master of political intrigue, so he was hiding behind several layers of patsies who had no idea they were involved in anything nefarious.
+1
I remember a very similar thing (and was going to mention it until I saw your post) about an urban doppleganger. I think it was in 2.0 or 3.0, though. Essentially the same thing. It could assume abilities of a slain enemy. Very, very nasty. I used them as part of a secret society in Waterdeep (filled with other dopplegangers, illusionists, leucrotta, and other "imitating" villains). They were fun for me, as the DM.
The greater doppleganger in 3.5 was pretty retarded for its CR.
I gave it 10 levels in the master shapeshifter PrC, which gave it wildshape abilities that put a level 20 druid to shame. Then using its alternate power, it could assume the identity of other creature's it had killed. When it absorbed identities, it gained all the class levels and abilities of the creature it absorbed. The only limit was the the max class levels it could absorb was limited by its hit dice. With the level of master shapeshifter, he was CR17 with 19 hit dice.
So basically I have a CR17 wildshaping doppleganger on steroids who could become a level 19 fighter, rogue, or sorcerer on demand.
The worst part was the doppleganer was a master of political intrigue, so he was hiding behind several layers of patsies who had no idea they were involved in anything nefarious.
+1
I remember a very similar thing (and was going to mention it until I saw your post) about an urban doppleganger. I think it was in 2.0 or 3.0, though. Essentially the same thing. It could assume abilities of a slain enemy. Very, very nasty. I used them as part of a secret society in Waterdeep (filled with other dopplegangers, illusionists, leucrotta, and other "imitating" villains). They were fun for me, as the DM.
Yeah, mine was leading a group of normal dopplegangers, who were in turn infiltrating different organizations, and turning them against each other.
It makes for a very awesome BBEG mastermind.
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CR 1 Orc Barbarian +8 to hit, for 1d12+13 20/x3.
More than strong enough to one-shot pretty much any 1st level pc.
Speed 40, Ac 14, and 23 HP + Orc ferocity. Now that's a right proper brute.
For even more pc-splatter, give him some regular orcs, and a reach weapon. Brutal.
Tarrasque? Do I win?
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War Troll. In a cave.
Will o' Wisps. Abnormally high AC for their CR (25 on a CR 6, I think), a touch attack that can't miss anything at its level, naturally invisibility and a ridiculous fly speed with an equally ridiculous Acrobatics score. Sure, it's stopped by any energy resistance, but I don't know a lot of parties at 6th level that can protect every member of its group, especially since the Wisp is highly intelligent (15), enough that it might simply wait-out any protective spells with its invisibility and stealth and then return to wreak havoc. Couple that with possible fast healing and Magic Immunity, and you have a menace that can wreak unprepared parties.
I second this one. Our party was nearly wiped out by a lone wisp we couldn't escape from or effectively harm.
Drowned and giant crabs were pretty aweful back in the day too. Get caught in a room with a drowned and you were screwed.
Just to stem the tide of posts of colossally high numbers instead of tough-for-CR monsters...
The Lady of Pain.
There. That's over. Now back to our regular discussion.
:P
Nope. It's against the rules to one-up the Lady. :P
Back on topic: I wasn't in the encounter personally, but I was informed that on average rolls a competent party was given significant trouble by alchemical golems and their unlimited use bombs, immunity to magic and difficult DR.
in 3rd vampire monks were scary no matter their CR, flurry + energy drain = thrown books and pointy objects at DM
also, Thyrm Wolves were pretty gross, monsterous AC for CR (I think CR 9 or so, with a high 30's AC, damage field when you attacked them, they were huge and of course like all canines had Trip attack)
Also Ghost Rat Swarms from 3.5, swarm type, so you ghost-touch weapons are useless, how many force area effect spells do you have? Channel Energy was a glimmer in PF's eye and they had like a 40 to 50 movement with fly, so escape was nigh-impossible. Our group of 11th level character were effectively killed by 2 swarms, wanna say CR 5(str damaged until paralyzed and then finished off by wandering monsters, sure we could have hit a Death Ward, but they surprised our cleric, nauseated him and interrupted all of his spellcasting and then drained all of his str)
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That "snake" in that tower from Skinsaw Murders... :)
Oh, and the Drowned, of course. I do really like them, but they are hard! But you had a DC10 CON check each round to hold your breath, with each round increasing it by 1. When a check is failed PC begins to drown. First round 0hp, second -1hp and it starts dying in the third round. Dying at -10hp (3.5).
So it's not that hard as described above.
But they rock! P. 46 MMIII
Brute force is all very well, and shapeshifters are great, but the scariest monsters are those with high Int and Wis - and Evil alignment.
Think of Admiral Thrawn, Professor Moriarty, Barn Klaus Wulfenbach. The instant they see you, they know your battle tactics, your current hit points, your weakest save, and how to get under your skin. And that's if they just meet you by chance. If they have enough advance notice to scry you or do some Gather Information, you won't even know they were there - you'll stumble into some death trap "by bad luck" and be at 1 hp with several of your stats drained before they even show themselves to administer the coup de grace.
I remember an old thread once postulated, "If illithids are so darn smart, how come they don't rule the world?"
And one of the first replies was, "How d'you know they don't?"
That is pretty much exactly what the greater dopple ganger was doing. Evil, intelligent, and mean as hell.
Even normal doppelgangers with class levels can make for entertaining mind games. Also +1 to orc meleers/berserkers at low levels. Metal animated objects can be the same way for low level parties just because of their hardness.
But I think the biggest bang for my buck would have to go to enemy spellcasters who have time to properly prepare/buff up and then go nova. Especially if you couple them with a sea of mooks to soak up damage and otherwise distract the party.
That "snake" in that tower from Skinsaw Murders... :)
Yeah, that definitely stand out as one where I had to go easy with the listed stats, but I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
... some of his more noteable weaknesses are so obscure that nobody would ever use them without blatant metagaming. (A thief throwing gems at him? Really?!?)
Yeah, I remember that one. How was anyone supposed tothink of that?