Fog cloud shrouds vision past 5ft.
Druid has storm domain instead of animal companion and wildshape, so he sees through like 15 ft at it (he's level 6).
Trouble I have is that it becomes VERY expensive to kill him in combat. Fireballing him takes forever, and soaks up resources real bad.
I know that certain undead have lifesense, and creatures with tremorsense, scent etc, but that gets old the first time you use it, and its bad DM'ing to have encounters specially tailored to f!$~ with one member of your party.
How can i justify five mooks and a BBEG to always have blindsense and anti-fog countermeasures? Gust of wind even more so.
"What, this mook happened to have a wand of "gust of wind" too?"
And dispel would work. But its expensive to waste lvl 3 dispels to clear a level 2 fog, he could just recast it, and mages at lvl 5-6 don't have enough spellslots.
TL;DR
How do regular NPC's and monsters find and kill a druid in a 20ft radius fog cloud in which he sees perfectly.
Cheap items and consumables are go.
Do a lot of fighters take blindfight?
It screws up the life for the rogues too :(
Hide and wait for the fog cloud to dissipate. Even as a mook, I know better than to fight someone on their own turf.
Or move away from the mist since it's stationary. Further Gust of wind and Fireball are fairlyl common for casters to have.
Final battle could be in an area with tumultuous winds too.
Like, in a room over a chasm over a pit that leads into lava. The convection would (Theoretically) create a lot of wind that would make the fog mostly useless.
And if that isn't how physics work, I don't care. That's how physics work in my game because it's cooler that way.
Let them set the (hell-/yeth-/troll-)hounds on him to flush him out? Or try a Barghest or a Shadow Mastiff. Scent works nicely for them in the fog. A lantern goat is CR6 and has lifesense and scent and a fear attack. And they are all lesser planar bindable.
Normal dogs will probably not stand a chance though, but non-caster NPCs might try a few of them too.
Think about collateral damage if the druid pulls this stunt in urban areas or on roads often enough. Carts and riders face serious problems.
And how about incorporeal foes? Wraiths, shadows, spectres. the wraith has lifesense but the other two should like the cover of the fog too.
So set a Necromancer or Hellish Summoner on him
Give your bad guys a Perception check to try to locate him within the fog. Sure, they burn a move to get to him but then they attack.
Also, unless he's a ranged specialist he can't actually attack them from within the fog. Bad guys don't have to go in. They can casually wait until he comes out. Maybe kill the rest of his party while he's busy hiding.
Other fun includes dropping a darkness in the middle of the fog cloud. It could be argued that the cloud already diminishes available light, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for darkness to make things go completely black on friend druid. A couple of bad guys with darkvision and he's in trouble (or has to leave his cloud).
A caster could have fun with him with a combination of invisibility and the various pit spells in APG. Basically take your time, find him, then drop him in a hole. For added fun, use summon monster to drop creatures on him.
Similar to the above, invisibility plus a wall of ice hemisphere will nicely give the druid something to do for a while during which you - again - kill his companions.
Can you say "assassin"? Go ahead, hide in a cloud. See what happens.
How about a monk with a Perception check and stunning fist? With no friends around (who can see worth a darn), the druid better make his saves.
Dragon. Flight. Breath weapon. Flyby attack. Don't bother to get into the cloud, just barf into it.
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Basically there's a theme here. Your druid has figured out a tactic that he thinks is a Win button, so he uses it every combat. Thing is that like everything else in this game, there are dozens of counters. I don't like stacking the deck against the player, so I too shy away from "everyone has gust of wind or tremorsense." Instead of having bad guys with obvious tools to get around the fog, make bad guys who enjoy the cloud.
If you demonstrate to the druid's player once or twice that being in the cloud all by himself is dangerous, he'll clue in and use the tactic sparingly. That's what you want... you want him able to use it in some situations, but not every situation.
Fights that are partially or completely underwater.
Areas that are too big for the fog cloud to really impact (it's only 20x20), or too many walls and turns to make the druids improved visibility matter (like a maze).
A reason why the PC's need to keep moving, casting fog cloud every round during a chase is rather pointless. Spreading lava, falling floors, shifting floors (especially ones that shift more than 20 feet).
Bigger creatures that occupy more of the fog cloud, giving the druid less room to hide in.
More creatures that do the same as above.
Wall of Fire, done in a ring around the fog facing inwards. He can't see out and takes damage as long as he stays there.
Any sort of battlefield control that separates the foggy area, or at least one side of it, from the fight. Make the druid keep moving and recasting if if he wants to stay in it. Pit spells can trap him inside the fog as well if he fails the save.
Deeper Darkness centered on the fog cloud, sure he can see through fog, but he can't see through that.
Hat off to you all.
I have gotten awesome advice, especially about the darkness, and making the point that its dangerous to be in a cloud all by yourself.
Now i got an email from him saying that he is going to get lunge, to mess with them even further. Getting that valuable 10ft away from them and then 5ft stepping to effectively Hide in the damn thing.
Dangerous cloud indeed :S
Also, perception changes a lot, he doesn't have a lot of stealth, so they can just hear him shuffling around in there.
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Fog cloud shrouds vision past 5ft.
Druid has storm domain instead of animal companion and wildshape, so he sees through like 15 ft at it (he's level 6).Trouble I have is that it becomes VERY expensive to kill him in combat. Fireballing him takes forever, and soaks up resources real bad.
I know that certain undead have lifesense, and creatures with tremorsense, scent etc, but that gets old the first time you use it, and its bad DM'ing to have encounters specially tailored to f@#! with one member of your party.
How can i justify five mooks and a BBEG to always have blindsense and anti-fog countermeasures? Gust of wind even more so.
"What, this mook happened to have a wand of "gust of wind" too?"
And dispel would work. But its expensive to waste lvl 3 dispels to clear a level 2 fog, he could just recast it, and mages at lvl 5-6 don't have enough spellslots.
TL;DR
How do regular NPC's and monsters find and kill a druid in a 20ft radius fog cloud in which he sees perfectly.Cheap items and consumables are go.
They don't need to.
He can only see 15 ft. They stay more than 15 feet away it is a stalemate before is dissipates.
Oh, one last thing....
Give him chances/hints/opportunities to utilize the fog in ways that are cooler than just "I stand in it and cast spells out". Like giving the party concealment to cross open ground vs archers. This will do 2 things:
1) make him feel cool and important
2) use up a casting of the spell
Don't let them use a 5 minute workday, make it time sensitive (which is why they're trying to avoid the hazard, so they can get to the bigger fight with more resources).
I second the ignore him and focus on the party, in general being a jerk and hiding from the fight will not win him points with his team. Other things not everything has to even be the workings of the enemy, a simple normal battle in a thunderstorm (winds above 11MPH). On one hand I am torn due to the fact that I in general dislike a DM stretching way out to make a viable build useless, though I also get annoyed by players expecting 1 tactic to work in 100% of battles. Bottom line, gust of wind isn't uncommon, natural windgusts are certainly not uncommon in outdoor areas. Bottom line his tactic should work about half the time, but half the time the enemies should be able to deal with it, whether via AOEs, gust of wind, summoning/having animals etc... and again why is the druid the main target of all of the enemies. If he's regularly hiding in a fog cloud, no half inteligent enemy would blindly charge into a fog, they would focus on the targets they can see, avoiding the reach of the fog as much as possible. Also he's a druid, assuming he has high wis, and opts to completely use up his 3rd level slots on a 2nd level spell, he has about 6 castings a day. Enemies making a tactical retreat backwards every time he casts fog cloud. 3 times per battle, have 3 battles a day on average. Problem solved.
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If he's alone in there, something with burrow and tremorsense could come up from below and get him, and no one else would even know. Add Swallow and it could just come up and eat him. When the fog clears, there's nothing but a hole where he was standing. Not sure if there is anything like a purple-worm-lite.
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How can i justify five mooks and a BBEG to always have blindsense and anti-fog countermeasures? Gust of wind even more so.
"What, this mook happened to have a wand of "gust of wind" too?"
Why can't you justify it? Sometimes, a mook gets away, and tells all his mook buddies (all mooks hang out at Mook's Bar™ in my world when they're not fighting the PCs) about the tactic. Word gets around. Seriously, if a PC becomes a one-trick pony, the bad guys will eventually hear about it and prepare for it. They'll hammer the druid a time or two, and then he'll learn. Eventually, you'll get to be (hopefully pleasantly) surprised when the PC casts obscuring mist, swigs a potion of invisibility, wild shapes, and dashes into the middle of the wizards casting gust of wind.
Clearly you have never been a DM, my friend.
If one PC constantly uses the same damn trick, and even gears for using lunge and other crap to make it even worse, He effectively increases the party's CR.
If an encounter is to be challenging, there has to be an element of danger. If i need to add 4 extra mooks because it becomes more difficult to get at the party, the rest of the "normal-CR" party are up against more than they can handle.
Ex. I throw a bunch of enemies on them. Druid makes fog clouds between him and his endangered allies to heal them, or just hides in there and casts lightning bolt and rolling ball of fire each round (maintains them, each last long time). Unhindered, no-one can risk going into the fog because visibility is null.
Encounter is walkover easy, not even a single pc goes down.
Next encounter i add two mooks to balance it up, the increased difficulty is too much for the rest of the party, and in the end only he and another are standing. The fight ending up in a mexican standoff where the lone remaining mook took a fallen party member hostage to escape.
I firmly believe that encounters should make the characters sweat once in a while, shooting fish in a barrel is pointless.
TL;DR
His powergaming creates a situation where normal-powered PC's have to powergame to take on the opponents.
Fog cloud shrouds vision past 5ft.
Druid has storm domain instead of animal companion and wildshape, so he sees through like 15 ft at it (he's level 6).Trouble I have is that it becomes VERY expensive to kill him in combat. Fireballing him takes forever, and soaks up resources real bad.
I know that certain undead have lifesense, and creatures with tremorsense, scent etc, but that gets old the first time you use it, and its bad DM'ing to have encounters specially tailored to f@~# with one member of your party.
How can i justify five mooks and a BBEG to always have blindsense and anti-fog countermeasures? Gust of wind even more so.
"What, this mook happened to have a wand of "gust of wind" too?"
And dispel would work. But its expensive to waste lvl 3 dispels to clear a level 2 fog, he could just recast it, and mages at lvl 5-6 don't have enough spellslots.
TL;DR
How do regular NPC's and monsters find and kill a druid in a 20ft radius fog cloud in which he sees perfectly.Cheap items and consumables are go.
He WILL move then.
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Hide and wait for the fog cloud to dissipate. Even as a mook, I know better than to fight someone on their own turf.
100% this. Retreat, and if getting close to the end of level nasty fight - then there are no issues with getting the next encounter setup to 'screw over' that character as the bad guy knows what they are up against. Play the monsters as their intelligence/style would dictate and one-trick pony tactics will fail. If that means the party gets less fights as the bad guys retreat then so be it - winning an encounter does need to mean removing all the opponents hp's.
S.
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guerrilla tactics - have some rangers pop out and start pelting them with arrows, as soon as the fog goes up, the rangers can run off into hiding again, if all the party is in the fog when this happens it only makes it easier for the rangers. Uses up more castings of the spell (also good for wasting other buffs)
Let the NPCs use their INT, if some one casts a spell making the fog, don't run into the freaking fog, if it's cast when they are already in there, get out, at worst you'll provoke from the druid as you run out. 20x20 isn't that much on a big field
Also if the NPCs have some way to find out that the PCs are using this tactic, see if you can use it against them, just one wand of create pit could end up being very annoying for the PCs
And read up on counter spelling, counter the fog before even casts it
Fog cloud shrouds vision past 5ft.
Druid has storm domain instead of animal companion and wildshape, so he sees through like 15 ft at it (he's level 6).Trouble I have is that it becomes VERY expensive to kill him in combat. Fireballing him takes forever, and soaks up resources real bad.
I know that certain undead have lifesense, and creatures with tremorsense, scent etc, but that gets old the first time you use it, and its bad DM'ing to have encounters specially tailored to f@~# with one member of your party.
How can i justify five mooks and a BBEG to always have blindsense and anti-fog countermeasures? Gust of wind even more so.
"What, this mook happened to have a wand of "gust of wind" too?"
And dispel would work. But its expensive to waste lvl 3 dispels to clear a level 2 fog, he could just recast it, and mages at lvl 5-6 don't have enough spellslots.
TL;DR
How do regular NPC's and monsters find and kill a druid in a 20ft radius fog cloud in which he sees perfectly.Cheap items and consumables are go.
He WILL move then.
Sure he can see 10ft out, but it's a 40ft radius. On top of that, you just affected his whole party too with the mobility being reduced to half speed.
I'm not finding anything in the Storms subdomain (or anything else, for that matter) that would allow the druid to override this part of the fog cloud spell:
The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet.
My emphasis. So you could just rule that he can't see past 5 feet anymore. But in case I'm missing something or in case you would rather deal with it the way it is:
Encounter is walkover easy, not even a single pc goes down.
This is part of the problem. Trying to take out your players is not good DMing. An even level encounter should ideally knock down 20% of the party's resources. If the druid is blowing through his spells, you're consuming his resources. Instead of thinking "he can just recast fog," think "I just ate another one of his spells and wasted his turn."
I suspect another part of the problem is you're letting them control the pace of encounters. (Druid: "I'm out of fog spells, we need to rest.") The judicious use of wandering monsters will eliminate the 15 minute days you're probably having. (You: "That's fine." "Your camp is under attack, roll for surprise! You don't have fog ready? Bummer.") You don't need to make them sweat in every single fight. But if you force them to do an actual full day's work, even if it's just fight after fight of mooks, they will be sweating by nightfall.
One last thing--strong gusts of wind used to be commonplace in dungeons. The typical use for this was blowing out torches, but blowing away fog is equally easy.
I'm not finding anything in the Storms subdomain (or anything else, for that matter) that would allow the druid to override this part of the fog cloud spell:
The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet.My emphasis. So you could just rule that he can't see past 5 feet anymore. But in case I'm missing something or in case you would rather deal with it the way it is:
UM druid archetype called storm druid.
Thanks.
Hide and wait for the fog cloud to dissipate. Even as a mook, I know better than to fight someone on their own turf.100% this. Retreat, and if getting close to the end of level nasty fight - then there are no issues with getting the next encounter setup to 'screw over' that character as the bad guy knows what they are up against. Play the monsters as their intelligence/style would dictate and one-trick pony tactics will fail. If that means the party gets less fights as the bad guys retreat then so be it - winning an encounter does need to mean removing all the opponents hp's.
S.
as amusing as cloudkill is, he's trying to keep the CR within the general vicinity of the party, at 6th level, you are talking a 9th level spellcaster attacking, what's worse it seems the problem is the druid is a kind of jerk that lets the party die while he lives, when the druid reaches 9th level, cloudkill will only make it worse.
Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
At 9th level, a druid gains immunity to all poisons.
Bigger question I do have for the DM, what are the other players opinions. While beating him in game is certainly possible and the suggestions here (especially the run away and regroup ones), the underlying issue is a player that is more interested in trying to break the game, with little concern to the other players enjoyment. I would say talking to him, first without the players, then with them if that dosn't work. The only wrong way to play D&D, is in a way that nobody is having fun but yourself.
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That big dome of fog sure does make it easy to decide where the glitterdust, grease, web or bead from the necklace of fireballs is gonna go, as well, for the bad-guys.
But, really, just like a medieval castle, the easiest way to not have to deal with the castle is to stay out of range of it's defenders, and beat the heck out of everything around them. Eventually, the defenders will starve, and their defensive walls can't save them. Same with 'walls' of fog or fire or thorns or force. Just sit back and wait them out (which, in the case of a spell with a duration in rounds or minutes, is gonna take a heck of a lot less time than waiting for castle-dwellers to run out of provisions).
As someone said up thread, don't go into the fog to get him. That's his turf.
Shoot the occasional arrow into the fog, to remind them that it's dangerous outside, and have archers take ready actions for the druid to come out (or the spell to end). For a trappy-sort of encounter (against bugbears or kobolds or whatever), setting up foot-snap traps or bear traps or caltrops or whatever in the outer 5 ft. squares of the fog between the party and the attackers could also be an option. The storm druid himself might be able to see what you're trap-layer is doing, but anyone else hiding in there with him is going to have difficulty seeing the traps before triggering them.
It's a decent tactic, against foes who aren't bright enough to think of anything other than 'run in and flail around blindly,' but the GM is always in charge of what the party runs into, and how they react, so the power is in your hand. I'd totally allow it to work, on encounters that logically would never think of anything smarter, like unattended zombies or orcs in the middle of a frenzy, but goblins might choose to hang back because the creepy magic fog *scares* them, and gnolls might choose to hang back because they are just clever enough to realize that the magic fog won't last forever...
Let it work when it should work, and totally trump it when you think the foes you've selected would find a way around it. If the game was meant to have one 'I win button' tactic, there wouldn't be 11 core classes and 8 more levels of spells past obscuring mist.
TL;DR
His powergaming creates a situation where normal-powered PC's have to powergame to take on the opponents.
I don't think his trick is even powergaming. It's cute, but really? Not that bad.
It can be hard to balance encounters when someone powergames, and some don't. My preference is that everyone powergames, and if some people don't know how, I (and others) will help them build more powerful characters. And if they don't want to make powerful characters, then being worse in combat is a decision they made.
It's a team game, if players need help with crunch, ask him to help his fellow players out.
It sounds like there´s plenty of good suggestions - besides good tactics on enemy´s part, there´s TONS of stuff that isn´t an ´explicit´ counter to the Fog, but it something that NPCs would use (or have available) anyways and also has the effect of negating the Druid´s Perception disparity in the fog - Darkness, Walls (spell/real), etc. As mentioned, everybody can still make Perception checks to notice his location, so his location CAN be accurately targetted, just with Full Concealment. Also, everybody can still see him when they are adjacent, so all enemies need to do is have enough spare movement that they can ´loop´ around the Fog hoping to bump into him... Since they know he´s there (somewhere) I don´t see why they couldn´t use Tumble if they want. EDIT: Oh yeah, there´s always that TRAMPLE ability :-)
Once somebody pin-points his location and attacks, everybody should get another Perception check to figure the location.
I´m not actually sure how much of a difference Scent makes: it locates adjacent creatures, but that is generally the case in Fog anyways, and besides that you just know their presence in range and general direction (although I think that part takes a Move action)... Since the Fog Cloud isn´t that big, I don´t see what Scent does here honestly. It would be more useful when there is LOTS of Fog, such as naturally occuring Fog that is EVERYWHERE. Scent creatures may well have an advantage on HIM in that scenario (since his Fog Sight is limited distance).
So it sounds like there´s lots of stuff to ´mix up´ the game, without shutting him down completely.
I do want to say, that calling this ´power gaming´ is kind of a stretch... Look at the Archetype. You´re the one who allowed it in your game. Do you really think anybody who would take this Archetype would NOT use it like he has been doing? This tactic seems as reasonable as a Rogue Stealthing in the Shadows. Maybe it´s overpowered, but it´s right up front in the Archetype, he isn´t doing anything innovative.
Isn´t there a Swamp Druid Archetype that has a similar ability? (but different in other abilities?) That could be a fun NPC match-up.
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I would congratulate your player on finding a use for obscuring mist and fog cloud. Mist and fog are great elements to add to encounters to spice them up (as long as you don't expect to have an out-and-out melee in them, then the miss chance becomes tedious).
I don't see how this druid is using the ability to effectively up his CR. Maybe I'm missing part of the story... is he using a longspear, or did he spend a feat on a decent polearm? Is he very high strength? I assume you're worried about his melee power if you mentioned the Lunge feat.
While a ranged enemy may need a perception check to find him... any melee enemies should still be able to fight effectively. He has successfully used a powerful magic spell to even his odds in a fight against combat characters, well done for him!
To explain... fog clouds are not that big, and you can see adjacent squares (albeit with concealment) which means any melee characters can just spend their movement wandering about (maybe provoking some very scary attacks of opportunity) to find the druid. In fact, if he takes that attack of opportunity, they basically know which direction to step to get into melee and take their one swing a round.
**EDIT** Quandary already mentioned this, sorry!
I like the character. I actually have a similar character in my game that is having a lot of fun with it. She is a dual class Oracle of Waves/Ninja named Misty.
Revelation: Water sight (sees through fog and mist at ANY distance)
Spells: Obscuring Mist, Magic Stone
aaaaand sneak attack.
Any way you build a fog-based character includes some windup time to get your fog and positioning, but they certainly add some panache to your narration as shuriken, shards of magical ice, or even a longspear come whizzing out of the mist to transfix your baddies. Have faith in his limited spells per day and the group's desire for a compelling story. Most players are good people if you give them the chance, and they don't ACTUALLY want to shoot fish in a barrel, they just want to feel like they could.
Thing
If one of the mooks dies, have the rest get suspicious and start "Purifying the Mist" with fire. Burning oil tossed at random spots in the mist. Primitive, effective and will make the player the prey instead of the predator.
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I like the character. I actually have a similar character in my game that is having a lot of fun with it. She is a dual class Oracle of Waves/Ninja named Misty.
Revelation: Water sight (sees through fog and mist at ANY distance)
Spells: Obscuring Mist, Magic Stone
aaaaand sneak attack.
Please tell me Misty has the Deaf curse! Because you just want to add Silence to the whole package to shut down those fireballs!
(And heck, I never bothered with Magic Stone--javelins work just fine, too!)
Throw another druid at him, have that druid cast summon swarm and send a bunch of bats into his cloud with him. Rinse and repeat.
I thought I should add this: setup some encounters that aren't stationary; like a chariot chase, magic carpet ride, etc - fog simply doesn't come into play in that situation.
