I was hoping to ask in general what the rules other GM's use for bringing in a new character into a campaign. Just curious how other's deal with characters that were to meet a grim fate (or retire to a condo down in Florida).
Things I was addressing:
•Any Level Penalties to new PC
•Loot Pertaining to Fallen Comrades and wealth/treasure over gain...or do they bury the persons belongings with them?
Just been having issues with players using death to bring in a new pc at higher levels with EXACTLY the right everything. As the actual PC's who are surviving have had to make due with what they explored and found and or could buy and sell.
I've had solved the looting the dead guy thing once by just saying to the PLAYERS "if you guys want to take his stuff that's fine but that means the new guy starts with nothing"
Spirit of cooperation won that one and they buried what was left of the dead guy with his stuff.
If you want him/her to be at the same place they were without severe penalties but also without having death being an advantage like you say, I would calculate up his gear value then put a couple packages together that you approve, this way the player still gets some choices, you might let them mix and match if you are feeling somewhat generous, or you could just tell them to give you a few packages for approval/denial.
If your concerned about the dead characters loot being too much for the party, just put in less treasure for a couple of adventures.
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I don't destroy character sheets, though depending on the method of death, sometimes I ask for them so I can use them as bbegs in future games.
My basic premise is this: You die, you roll a character of the same level as the average party level that the survivors have. Party can choose whether to loot the corpse *if possible, which it is not always*, or they can bury the corpse normally.
If they choose to loot the body, they they get reduced treasure until people fall back within WBL. Usually not long, since I like to level my players every two or three sessions if possible.
If they choose not to loot the body, then they'll continue getting treasure as normal.
The new player follows the WBL guidelines for how much they can spend on item groups and ect.. And this is wealth. If you pick up a bunch of crafting feats to get things at half price, you won't be getting twice the gear as the other players. Wealth is based on the market value of the item, not the cost you paid to make it.
I also don't allow custom items, so no headband of intellect that requires ten ranks in knowledge arcana, a good alignment, and race elf in order to use. Never again... *shudder*
I just let them roll a new character, same level as the party.
If the players abuse this trust, they lose it.
another +1
Same level as the rest of the party, the rest of the party doesn't get to keep the treasure so either bury/burn it with the body or give it to the church for charity, the new character has the WBL for his level.
There is enough problem for the DM to actually fit the new character into the story for him to worry about those things.
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How I deal with dead PCs? You mean after the mandatory 5-minute evil laughter session (of course right in the player's face. Finger pointing optional, but recommended). And, in some cases, the victory dance?
I was hoping to ask in general what the rules other GM's use for bringing in a new character into a campaign. Just curious how other's deal with characters that were to meet a grim fate (or retire to a condo down in Florida).
If I killed them because they used a plural apostrophe in the phrase "GMs", it's final. Because then I have killed the player.
Just kidding.
Maybe.
;P
Things I was addressing:
•Any Level Penalties to new PC
•Loot Pertaining to Fallen Comrades and wealth/treasure over gain...or do they bury the persons belongings with them?
No level penalties whatsoever. The new guy starts at the same level (if I still used XP, he'd start at the same XP total)
As for the stiff's gear, it depends: If they're behind on kit and need some dosh, I'll let them keep the dead guy's stuff, and otherwise, it is understood that he'll be buried with it (i.e. make an investment in future generations of adventurers).
In any case, the players then do a quick calculation of their current wealth and the new guy starts with the average.
And concerning whether this is due to character death or retirement: Doesn't matter. However, players only get one "joker", i.e. they are strongly encouraged to create a character they can think of playing for the whole campaign, but get to either retire or redo their character from scratch one single time.
I did the latter to counter a rash of characters that lasted hardly more than a level - which frankly gets troublesome if the characters are supposed to be invested in the story, and maybe even involved.
It's not completely set in stone - if I notice a player being really unhappy with his character, he can switch it even after the joker - but it does mean the players won't create characters on a whim to "test out a class" or something and not investing in a proper character, with character.
Just been having issues with players using death to bring in a new pc at higher levels with EXACTLY the right everything. As the actual PC's who are surviving have had to make due with what they explored and found and or could buy and sell.
Well, I don't have that problem since I am relatively generous with kit, so they tend to have the stuff they want, anyway.
If you have a problem with a player who brings in a new character after the old one died and customises his kit, just limit access to items for late-comers.
You see, the problem with punishing those who have to stop playing their old character because you killed him with less kit and levels is that just like the guy juggling with running chainsaws and not catching one, his problems are only starting.
The guy's character already died. Now he has a weaker one. Guess what is more likely going to happen to that guy?
Most games I've seen bring new PCs in one level below the others. There needs to be a reward for surviving the campaign. Otherwise, you'll have people rolling up new characters every week.
No, you wouldn't, because you can simply limit the number of characters they simply retire and bring in a new one.
Of course, if the new ones are brought in because the old ones have died, you might just re-evaluate your GMing style, for it seems you're just a hard-arse sadist ;-P
And, as I said, if you kill off a character and then make the next one come in weaker, just to kill him off again (you were mentioning new characters on a weekly basis), you'll eventually (and sooner rather than later) end up with a few characters who are 10 levels or more behind the group.
The reason why Paizo changed the rules about characters being brought from the dead (and getting rid of the permanent punishments) was because frankly, getting punished for bad luck stinks.
If you have a problem with people lacking commitment to their characters, talking about the issue is always better than passive-aggressive punishments.
I don't have 100 attendance, so pcs are not in exactly the same point. My rule is that new guys come in tied for the bottom, and have wealth by level that they can spend like in PFS: access is limited.
I do try to give everyone a cool thing, however.
Keep in mind that death is a temporary condition at higher levels, you can usually have them brought back from the dead.
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Most games I've seen bring new PCs in one level below the others. There needs to be a reward for surviving the campaign. Otherwise, you'll have people rolling up new characters every week.
In most games I've seen, surviving and keeping it's character is it's own recompense.
Penalizing death is just overkill, and encourages mini-maxing over acceptable efficiency.
I have PC's start one level lower with average wbl, but no more than one third on any one item. Survivors have better wealt a rule. Also all character have to have a campaign related backstory before the next session. This helps to introduce the new guy. I also don't allow any character that infringes on another's role in the party. Doing all that has eliminated player offing themselves to start with better loot, building dopplegangers of other PC's. Also put an end to players retiring just play a new class that just came out.
I have PC's start one level lower with average wbl, but no more than one third on any one item. Survivors have better wealt a rule. Also all character have to have a campaign related backstory before the next session. This helps to introduce the new guy. I also don't allow any character that infringes on another's role in the party. Doing all that has eliminated player offing themselves to start with better loot, building dopplegangers of other PC's. Also put an end to players retiring just play a new class that just came out.
The "no more than one third on any one item" is like saying "kick the fighter while he's down".
Question: How optimized are your players' characters?
For us it depends on how they died. One of our players often loses interest in their character after a while and puts himself in harms way, dying on purpose. He usually comes back penalized.
I have PC's start one level lower with average wbl, but no more than one third on any one item. Survivors have better wealt a rule. Also all character have to have a campaign related backstory before the next session. This helps to introduce the new guy. I also don't allow any character that infringes on another's role in the party. Doing all that has eliminated player offing themselves to start with better loot, building dopplegangers of other PC's. Also put an end to players retiring just play a new class that just came out.The "no more than one third on any one item" is like saying "kick the fighter while he's down".
Question: How optimized are your players' characters?
Funny thing is nobody seems to kill of their fighter just to bring in another fighter. They always seem to class hop to whatever is the new class from the newest book. As far as "kicking a fighter while he is down" my players know I will write a way to get their characters raised. I have a few ready that will add to plot, creating a win/win. To put it in context my players know I run a tough, gritty (20 point buy) game. I've also told them at the start senior PC's will "find" better treasure. I keep magic items hard to find in stores so if the want the best they need to adventure for it. I also don't put out much gold in hoards so selling old equipment is a must. Overall I spend extra effort to make sure the players are about 20% wealthier if they stick with there current PC. I make this all very transparent so I don't hear complaints. This has helped keep the game focused on plot, and exploration, instead of character building.
If you go out of your way in order to provide resuraction then it isn't a problem.
Anyway what's your problem with people wanting to play a new class? Why not just let them remake their character? (keeping all the story the character has)
In my group when a new book comes out every player has the option to re-make his character if he found a new archetype or alternative he likes.
It depends on the circumstances and type of death.
The death is a campaign event, last stand (without any samurai levels), etc.
This is typically the end of the campaign anyway, so I just come up with a decent epilogue for the dead and living PCs and (real) life moves on. Any dead PCs tend to get a more verbose "legacy" than the living.
The death is a result of awful rolls and lazy strategy (my games are not hack-n-slash at all, so planning is a must).
This scenario puts the character's future in the hands of the other PCs. Sometimes they drag the body back for a proper funeral, sometimes they loot the corpse and continue on, sometimes they animate the corpse for easy trap detection or manual labor, and sometimes stranger things happen. The player has to wait until an opportunity to introduce a new character or just hope the other players will help out.
Everything is agreed upon between players before things go on.
Also, resurrection is a tricky business in my games. When the corpse actually gets up, there's a real chance that it may not be the character at all.
The death results in the PC becoming undead (or similar) through spawning abilities, rituals, Phyrexian hokey-pokey, whatever.
This is one of the easier events for me to handle. I usually let the player continue on as is with a few adjustments. I'm actually looking forward to this possibility since the release of the Advanced Races playtest pdf.
Rocks, ogres, dragons, farming equipment falls, everyone dies.
If the dice rolls and strategy f!@+s up this badly, the players usually want to start a new campaign. However, I always offer the option to let the characters play on in whatever afterlife awaits them.
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They get to roll up a new character, same level as the party. My party usually operates somewhat below normal WBL, so I find out what the new character concept is, ask what kind of items they had in mind, then proffer a list of suitable magic items and say "pick X number of items from this list". When it comes to Mundane equipment, I don't even bother accounting it for new characters after 5th level, so long as nobody abuses it.
If you go out of your way in order to provide resuraction then it isn't a problem.
Anyway what's your problem with people wanting to play a new class? Why not just let them remake their character? (keeping all the story the character has)
In my group when a new book comes out every player has the option to re-make his character if he found a new archetype or alternative he likes.
I don't have any problem with rebuilding or modifying existing characters. But completely altering the party make up wrecks havoc on continuity. The last player subbed out his monk to player a summoner leaving the group short handed in the melee department. Its not all my PC's just the "flavor of the month guy" that always has to be the first in the group to play the new thing. He will never change but keeping a tight leash on new characters has slowed his character turn over rate alot. Probably because the thought of being weaker than the other characters makes him think twice.
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If a PC dies in my campaign, the player has a choice - keep his current PC or roll up a new character.
If he wants to continue with his current character, we "metagame" a bit and the surviving PCs pool their resources to have him raised/resurrected (depending on party level). I know it breaks the "no metagaming" rule, but if a player is really attached to their PC (which is typically the case in my campaigns), it's an easy way for them to keep playing what they like.
If the player wants a new character, I have them roll up a new one at the same level as the lowest level PC in the party (due to many real-life circumstances, my players' PCs are not typically the same level - they're usually within 3 levels or each other (i.e., Level 3-5)). After they roll up their character, I give them one magic item of their choice (within reason, DM approval) and the rest of the party members outfit him with the extra magical equipment that has been accumulated - Not sure why, but my players almost NEVER sell off their magic items, even if they can't use them or don't want them, which makes it easy to outfit a "new" PC.
Hope this helps!
"How do you (as a GM) deal with a PC death?"
First, I point, laugh like hell, and do the 'DM just killed your sorry ass' dance.
After I hand them a tissue, and their tears have been dried, they generate a new PC two levels lower than the party average, with XP being 50% to the next level. They tend to catch up quickly this way.
:D
As far as PC loot, they all have families, churches, organizations of some sort to which they have willed most of their wealth and possessions. Most of the time, they will an item or two to the party, and the rest is brought in by the party to the rightful heirs.
New character comes in at the same level as the others, usually at the XP count of the lowest PC -- and is allowed full WBL (since, really, the PCs tend to be a little ahead of the curve), although I'll generally make sure that no item is more than half their budget.
In terms of how you handle the dead PC's gear, generally (in my experience), by the time that PC had enough gear to matter, if the party was in a position to recover it, they could also get the body and have the guy raised/reincarnated/resurrected, so it's almost never an issue.
In the (very) rare times that it really is an issue..... Since the party is mostly fair in distribution of items, generally, the only thing that happens is that PC#2 will trade his Ring of Protection +1 for dead guy's +2 (and the like), each player often grabs a non-magical thing (locket, signet, whatever) from the dead guy to remember him, and then the rest is donated to the appropriate thing (dead guy's church, family, orphanage, whatever)
I use the FR adjustments to EXP, so lower levels rocket up and no one can pull too far ahead. I set the new character's level the same as any other new character: lowest level of the party. I also allow major rebuilds about level 5 and 11. I also run a 1/3 limit on a single item, as none of the rest of my players have exceeded that portion in a single item in 12 years since the '99 release of the modern game, well, after level3.
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Why DO gm's make their players destroy the character sheet after death? Is it just adding insult to the injury of the lost PC? Are they trying to make sure the player can't sneak the character into another game? Are dead character sheets some kind of threat to be dealt with?
I've never FORCED a player to destroy their character sheets, but in the past we've done it as a form of ceremony in which the players gather around a burn barrel or grill and perform the actual funeral service for the fallen PC in-character, culminating in us setting the character sheet on fire and letting it burn away.
*shrugs* It's just roleplay. If a player didn't WANT to destroy their sheet, I wouldn't make them. It's just something we've done voluntarily before and everyone thought it was pretty cool.
I cackle maniacly, and absorb their power, becoming stronger, and continue until my throne of old sheets become grand enough to make me the king of GMs!
I was hoping to ask in general what the rules other GM's use for bringing in a new character into a campaign. Just curious how others deal with characters that were to meet a grim fate (or retire to a condo down in Florida).
Things I was addressing:
•Any Level Penalties to new PC
•Loot Pertaining to Fallen Comrades and wealth/treasure over gain...or do they bury the persons belongings with them?Just been having issues with players using death to bring in a new pc at higher levels with EXACTLY the right everything. As the actual PC's who are surviving have had to make due with what they explored and found and or could buy and sell.
This issue depends on the DM. I have been a player in a game where the DM would actually laugh and clap his hands when a player character died or was very near death. This type of DM also would have kobold assassins riding around on the back of adult black dragons and attack us with their death attacks using locking adamantium garottes that had contact poison on them so you had to make 5 saves back to back. Needless to say he doesn't run any more.
When a character dies in our current game they come in at a level lower than the lowest level character in the group, so if most of us are 10th and one or two guys are 9th because of missing games the dead guy comes in at 8th. We modify that based on how close the other characters are to leveling if the lowest guys are very close within like say 2 or 3K then the new guy comes in at the base exp for 9th. This rule is very subjective to DM interpretation because when I was a 2nd level character I was crited and died, taken back to my temple I was given a raise dead the DM bumped to a true res and now the character has visions and nightmares of impending doom( I.E. adventure hooks)
As far as wealth, we either keep or sell everything on the corpse and then animate the body as our new trap finder. When I say everything I mean clothes and all, no sense in letting a good set of clothes rot on a zombie and the mending spell or make whole will repair any damage to the clothes.
My DM is very stingy so we as players have learned to be very greedy in order to maintain the wealth we are supposed to be at. For example we killed two dragons one red and one black. The red on didn't have any treasure listed in the module and the DM said "oh well sux to be you guys" I however got him back by pulling out the draconomicon. With the rangers help skinned the beast, sold it's teeth as daggers sold it's blood for elixir components and used it's bones to make bow and other tools from, black dragon had a horde to loot but we still rinsed and repeated so that I wound up with 7K more gold than the DM thought I should have but it was all legal.
If your players are having a hard time with wealth then have a human in the group take the Mercantile background feat from the Forgotten realms source book and then you can sell stuff at a higher rate rather than the standard 50%, plus if you make a diplomacy check to haggle then you get an extra 10% on top of that. If the players are saying that they don't have enough money then they should find ways to make it, the rules are there in the system you just have to exploit them.
another +1I just let them roll a new character, same level as the party.
If the players abuse this trust, they lose it.
+1 here as well. Years back, we all had various rules regarding losing X levels upon bringing back from the dead versus rolling up new characters, etc. But, in all that time, I can count on one hand the amount of times anyone actually tried to exploit the system. In particularly rough campaigns, we were actually leveling backwards at one point from all the character deaths.
Nowadays, I allow Raises and new characters to be brought back at the same xp as the party. My purpose as a DM is to host a game we play to have fun, so I don't see any fun in punishing a player for having a spot of bad luck, or if they are just bored with their current character and want to roll something different. It's easier for me to write up encounters if everyone is similar levels; level loss penalties are typically more work for the DM than for the player, in my experience.
The players decide whether they loot a dead ally, usually it's not an issue. Sometimes, the player's character will take a memento from their fallen comrade; a warrior may take another warrior's sword and make it his main weapon, to always keep the spirit of their friend by their side in combat, for example. Heck, I award extra XP when things like this happen.
Most games I've played in the stuff just disappeared. We didn't discuss it; it just vanished along with the dead character. Even in games where we buried the character IC this was the case.
The replacement would typically be the same level as the lowest level PC in the party.
Typically what I've seen is losing the original character for most players was sufficient "punishment" and I haven't seen anyone exploit the loss. Of course, I HAVE seen people "work the system" when they disliked their original character and chose to roll a new one (rather than losing the old to death), but that's not really the same thing.
Anecdotal experience is anecdotal.
I don't really see much of a point in "punishing" a player whose character died unless they have demonstrated that trust is misplaced. And then I wouldn't call it punishment so much as imposing limits to balance the game, because that's more the objective than to make the player feel chagrin or remorse.
I forgot to mention, to coutner-balance the lack of level loss for death in my games, I make means of resurrection much more rare; when the gods decide to resign fate and return you to earth from your appointed afterlife, it is a momentous occasion, not just someone's X level spell for the day. Getting "raised" is a LOT harder to do, so character death is a pretty serious consequence.
