fretgod99 wrote: Taking dragonhunter out of context I earnestly believe I did no such thing. I am absolutely confident that I answered dragonhunter precisely in context.
If I took him out of context, I did so in error, and I apologize.
Cevah wrote: We also have clear evidence to the contrary in the spell casting abilities of the Ranger and Paladin. At levels 1-3 they cannot cast spells yet they can use wands if the spell is on their list.
The spell list is part of the class ability called "Spells", not its own thing. So why do they get a pass?
It is not consistent.
/cevah
Because of how those abilities work. They have a spell list, but they don't have a caster level until level 4.
If an ability said "ability to cast spells" you would not allow a Pal or Rgr 2 to qualify because it has no spell casting.
A monk doesn't gain a ki pool until level 4.
A monk does not add points to a ki pool until level 4.
A monk does not have a rule as part of the ki ability saying that they have a ki list even though they don't have ki.
So, still no.
Fretgod99 wrote: yes, 2 can equal 0. Only for extremely small values of 2. :-)
dragonhunterq wrote: Cevah wrote: We also have clear evidence to the contrary in the spell casting abilities of the Ranger and Paladin. At levels 1-3 they cannot cast spells yet they can use wands if the spell is on their list.
The spell list is part of the class ability called "Spells", not its own thing. So why do they get a pass?
It is not consistent.
/cevah
Because of how those abilities work. They have a spell list, but they don't have a caster level until level 4.
If an ability said "ability to cast spells" you would not allow a Pal or Rgr 2 to qualify because it has no spell casting.
A monk doesn't gain a ki pool until level 4. Agreed
A monk does not add points to a ki pool until level 4.Agreed
A monk does not have a rule as part of the ki ability saying that they have a ki list even though they don't have ki. ki list?
So, still no. The class [except certain archetypes] grants ki starting at level 4.
The ninja class ability lets you count levels in other classes that grant ki. Not levels in classes that you have ki in. It is in the ninja ki ability that the question lies. Does the language which clearly adds levels in classes that grant ki mean only levels in classes that have granted ki? I say no.
For monk archetypes that trade out ki, If you take that archetype after counting the initial levels, then you have to retrain, because you had already made the choice to count them.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: The ninja class ability lets you count levels in other classes that grant ki. Not levels in classes that you have ki in. The FAQ shows that your logic is not correct. If you don't have the ability, then you don't count as a class that even could have Ki much less have it.
Can a monk 2/ninja 2 use a ki strike?
Johnnycat93 wrote: Can a monk 2/ninja 2 use a ki strike? Ninja doesn't have ki strike, so no.
Monk doesn't have ki strike until 4th, so no.
So no, a Monk 2/Ninja 2 can't use Ki strike because he does not have that class ability.
The root of the disagreement is that some believe that the statement "class which grants Ki" is referring to the Monk (for example) class as a whole. This line of thinking results in treating the Monk class as a complete entity, level 1-20, with no reference to actual characters or levels they may have acquired.
This may have been a reasonable interpretation before the multiple dev posts and FAQs, but with the added information we have now, it is clear that we should never treat a class or its features as an independent thing, in a vacuum, outside the context of a character.
Thus, when something refers to an ability or feature of a class, it only cares about abilities or features of that class which the specific character possesses. If you only take 1 level in a class, then everything in the game which references that class only knows or sees things acquired at level 1. Everything beyond that first level may as well not exist as if the rest of class were empty.
Hence, a level 2 monk is not a class which grants Ki points, as that class feature is not within the Monk class after your abruptly abridge it after level 2.
The logic used by those thinking this works is the same logic that people tried to employ by taking a Sohei monk who didn't have weapon training, getting it in less levels in Fighter, then asserting the Monk has weapon training without 6 levels in monk to get it.
You don't have Ki Pool or Ki Strike on a monk 2nd level just as a 5th level Sohei can't have Weapon Training regardless of the fact he has from his fighter levels.
Byakko wrote: The root of the disagreement is that some believe that the statement "class which grants Ki" is referring to the Monk (for example) class as a whole. This line of thinking results in treating the Monk class as a complete entity, level 1-20, with no reference to actual characters or levels they may have acquired.
This may have been a reasonable interpretation before the multiple dev posts and FAQs, but with the added information we have now, it is clear that we should never treat a class or its features as an independent thing, in a vacuum, outside the context of a character.
Thus, when something refers to an ability or feature of a class, it only cares about abilities or features of that class which the specific character possesses. If you only take 1 level in a class, then everything in the game which references that class only knows or sees things acquired at level 1. Everything beyond that first level may as well not exist as if the rest of class were empty.
Hence, a level 2 monk is not a class which grants Ki points, as that class feature is not within the Monk class after your abruptly abridge it after level 2.
Accurate post is accurate.
Byakko wrote: The root of the disagreement is that some believe that the statement "class which grants Ki" is referring to the Monk (for example) class as a whole. This line of thinking results in treating the Monk class as a complete entity, level 1-20, with no reference to actual characters or levels they may have acquired.
This may have been a reasonable interpretation before the multiple dev posts and FAQs, but with the added information we have now, it is clear that we should never treat a class or its features as an independent thing, in a vacuum, outside the context of a character.
Thus, when something refers to an ability or feature of a class, it only cares about abilities or features of that class which the specific character possesses. If you only take 1 level in a class, then everything in the game which references that class only knows or sees things acquired at level 1. Everything beyond that first level may as well not exist as if the rest of class were empty.
Hence, a level 2 monk is not a class which grants Ki points, as that class feature is not within the Monk class after your abruptly abridge it after level 2.
So you are saying I can combine two archetypes that trade out the SAME thing, as long as I never get to the level in the class where the class grants it because I don't count as a class with that thing until I get it?
That is not how it works.
/cevah
A ranger pre-level 4 can use a wand, but if he has an archetype that gives away spellcasting the following levels he can't use the wand ever (without UMD)
This is a relevant example that should factor something in this debate.
Some here would argue that before level 4 the ranger with the archetype would be able to use wands because "he still didn't have to commit to the archetype yet", but the consequence is that at level 4 he loses the ability of using wands
so an option is that the monk levels stack before level 4 unless an archetype trades it out, at that point the levels cease to stack, even resulting in a reduction of the ki pool.
Entryhazard wrote: A ranger pre-level 4 can use a wand, but if he has an archetype that gives away spellcasting the following levels he can't use the wand ever (without UMD) As originally presented, archetypes had to be selected at the first level gained in a class;
"When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here."
However, more recently this has been changed to the first level where a class feature is changed;
"Each archetype replaces specific class features from the parent class, and the choice to take an archetype does not need to be made until the first level that includes a class feature that is altered or replaced."
The Skirmisher archetype gains Hunter's Tricks starting at 5th level and gives up Ranger spellcasting. It has no other changes. Does that mean someone could be an 'undeclared Ranger' through level 4, gain spellcasting, and then become a Skirmisher at level 5 and lose spellcasting? I don't believe that is the intent.
Rather, I'd argue that the "altered or replaced" standard has to be applied on the basic class side... the first level at which an ability that the archetype changes is available is the level at which the archetype must be committed to. So a Skirmisher would have to declare themselves so at level 4 because they don't get spellcasting... or possibly even level 1 because they don't get wand use - which could be viewed as a benefit of the 'spellcasting' class feature which is available starting at 1st level.
Of course, it would be simpler to just go back to 'you have to declare an archetype when you first gain a level in a new class'. The delay is a nice way to give people options in the 95% of cases where it doesn't make any difference, but in these instances where a class feature or some sub-benefit of such is retroactively invalidated it creates confusion.
Cevah wrote: Byakko wrote: The root of the disagreement is that some believe that the statement "class which grants Ki" is referring to the Monk (for example) class as a whole. This line of thinking results in treating the Monk class as a complete entity, level 1-20, with no reference to actual characters or levels they may have acquired.
This may have been a reasonable interpretation before the multiple dev posts and FAQs, but with the added information we have now, it is clear that we should never treat a class or its features as an independent thing, in a vacuum, outside the context of a character.
Thus, when something refers to an ability or feature of a class, it only cares about abilities or features of that class which the specific character possesses. If you only take 1 level in a class, then everything in the game which references that class only knows or sees things acquired at level 1. Everything beyond that first level may as well not exist as if the rest of class were empty.
Hence, a level 2 monk is not a class which grants Ki points, as that class feature is not within the Monk class after your abruptly abridge it after level 2.
So you are saying I can combine two archetypes that trade out the SAME thing, as long as I never get to the level in the class where the class grants it because I don't count as a class with that thing until I get it?
That is not how it works.
/cevah Archetypes are a bit of a different situation, as they modify the class itself and exist outside the normal realm of character-referencing abilities.
If the distinction is hard to grasp, don't worry about it. Just consider it an exception which has also been thoroughly backed by dev guidance in many places.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: My Monk does have a Ki Pool because he has 2 levels in Ninja. James Risner wrote: You are wrong No, I'm not. Ninjas really do get a Ki Pool.
Ninja Ki Pool wrote: At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, And if my Ninja takes levels in some other class that also grants Ki Points, those levels stack.
ninja ki pool wrote: If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool James Risner wrote: and we have a FAQ to prove it. No you don't. This is the only FAQ that has been referred to on this thread:
FAQ wrote: When do I count as having a class feature?
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
This FAQ is all about the time at which you technically have class features and when you can use class features as prerequisites. But, I as I have proven, the character I'm proposing has the class feature: the Ninja Ki Pool! This FAQ does not erase, nerf, or update the Ninja Ki Pool Class Ability in any way. It does not even have the word "Ninja" in it anywhere. It does not bear upon what I've been saying.
James Risner wrote: But we have a deafening choir of developer quotes and FAQ Well, no. If everything you said were valid and correct, you would have have 1 of each. 1 does not constitute a choir, nor does 2. But actually, you have 0.
James Risner wrote: saying "you don't have a class feature until you do", so any interpretation that goes "the class is capable of granting" is deeply flawed rules interpretations. “You don't have a class feature you do” is clearly quite different from “the class is capable of granting.” The words are different. They say different things. The rules say one of those things in one place another in another. 2 different things are happening in 2 different places, and logically, there is nothing wrong with that.
James Risner wrote: the same logic that people tried to employ by taking a Sohei monk who didn't have weapon training, getting it in less levels in Fighter, then asserting the Monk has weapon training without 6 levels in monk to get it. Your logic is the logic of someone looking at the prerequisites of Power Attack, seeing that it requires a 13 Strength, and then saying that you can't take Combat Expertise if you don't have a 13 Strength, even though you know that the prerequisites of Combat Expertise don't include a 13 Strength.
You keep saying that the Monk Class only grants Ki Points at level 4, even though you know the Ninja Class Ability does not require the Monk Ki Ability in order to gain Ki Points from levels in Monk, but only requires you to "have levels" in it. "Have levels" is not the same thing as "have enough levels to gain Ki Points independently from your levels in Monk.
You keep going on about how the FAQ demands that you have enough levels in a class to have a given Class Ability, even though you know the character I'm proposing has enough levels to have the given Class Ability: the Ninja Ki Pool.
It does not simply, logically follow that when somewhere something says you have to have a particular prerequisite to get some other benefit that you have to meet that prerequisite for some other benefit even though its prerequisites are different. You need concrete evidence to back the statement that
“the class is capable of granting” = “you don't have the class feature until you do”
And you haven't brought that.
James Risner wrote: You are trying to extrapolate a game mechanic, in this case "class spell list", with a special thing that allows it to work so long as you have 1 level in a class. No, you are the one extrapolating here. You are extrapolating that “levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool” = [has the Ki Pool Class Ability from another Class.] But those are not the same thing: the words are different.
[Different words mean different things] is not flawed logic. The flawed logic here is yours.
Here's my logic. I believe it is also Cevah's:
The Monk Class has an Ability called Ki Pool that awards something called Ki Points based on your levels in Monk.
Therefore Monk is a “class that grants points to a Ki Pool.”
Therefore levels in Monk grant Ki Points. We even know the rate: 1 Ki Point/2 levels in Monk.
Therefore, 2 levels in Monk are 2 levels in a “class that grants points to a Ki Pool.”
And since, as
Ninja wrote: If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, So, a level 2 Ninja/2Monk gains 2 Ki Points due to levels.
That logic seems pretty bulletproof to me, but you are firing anyway.
Byakko wrote: Monks are NOT such a class until they reach level 4. Chess Pwn wrote: Just because a class potentially could get something doesn't mean it's a class with that Sort of like how maybe when a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and nobody hears it, maybe it doesn't make a noise?
Okay, you 2 are saying that Monk is not “a class that grants points to a Ki Pool” unless I have 4 levels in Monk.
All right, lets say I am a level 4 Ninja, and you are a level 4 Monk.
Your 4 levels in Monk are granting 2 points into your Ki Pool.
Your Ki Pool is a Ki Pool.
Therefore, Monk is "a class that grants points to a Ki Pool" no matter how many levels in Monk I have from—zero to infinity—Monk is still a class that grants points to “a Ki Pool.”
Since what you are saying is clearly not logically implicit, the only way for it to be true is for some official rules source to actually, explicitly say it.
And you haven't shown me that.
You have also tried to argue that having not enough levels in a class to gain a particular ability is the same thing as having no levels in that class at all, like the argument that Fretgod99 is advancing
Fretgod99 wrote: yes, 2 can equal 0. James Risner wrote: You are trying to extrapolate a game mechanic, Only you are the ones extrapolating here. It does not logically follow that there is some far-reaching game mechanic that
Sean K Reynolds wrote: if you're not high enough level You are actually level 0.
The FAQ does not say that explicitly. Sean Reynolds does not say that explicitly, and proving that that is not an implicit conceit only requires a counter example.
You've been given one. Cevah mentioned this first, or something very like it:
The ability to cast Fireball is granted to Level 5 Wizards.
The ability to use a Wand of Fireball only comes when you have levels in a class that grants the ability to cast Fireball.
A level 1 Wizard can use a Wand of Fireball.
A level 1 Wizard has “not high enough level” to cast Fireball, but
A level 1 Wizard has 1 level in a class that grants Fireball, not 0.
Therefore, it is not a logically implicit conceit in this game that 2 = 0.
Therefore, for this to be one of those cases where it does, the rules have to actually, explicity say that.
And none of you have shown that.
So, let's summarize:
You have been trying to argue that my character does not have a particular class feature, even though I have proven conclusively that he does.
You are trying to argue that an FAQ that makes no mention of the Ninja Class has any bearing on the Ninja Class.
You are trying to argue that Ninja only get Ki Points from other classes if they actually have the Ki Pool Ability from the other classes when you know for a fact that the Ninja Class Ability doesn't say that: it says only that you have to have “levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool.”
You have tried to argue that the number of levels in a class that I have changes the nature of the class, maybe sort of like how General Relativity says that gravitational fields change the shape of space-time.
And you have tried to argue that there is a conceit in the game mechanics that “not enough” is the same thing as “none at all,” actually defending the position that 2 = 0.
Wow, guys!
Scott Wilhelm wrote: But, I as I have proven, the character I'm proposing has the class feature: the Ninja Ki Pool! Diverting from the issue.
You have a ki pool from Ninja.
You do not have a ki pool from Monk. We have a FAQ explicitly designed to answer that question. It was created because of a similar issue with Monk Sohei.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: No, you are the one extrapolating here. You are extrapolating that “levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool” = [has the Ki Pool Class Ability from another Class.] But those are not the same thing: the words are different. They don't write abilities your interpretation.
This reminds me of people taking 4 levels of Barbarian and 10 other levels and saying "my rage powers are x per level, and I'm level 14 so 14x".
No.
No it doesn't work like you say.
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"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set."
Note: When the ki pool ability of the second class is gained. Not just when a second class which will eventually get ki pool is gained.
CBDunkerson wrote: "If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set."
Note: When the ki pool ability of the second class is gained. Not just when a second class which will eventually get ki pool is gained.
Kind of funny, I had been missing that part. Thank you CBD! And many posts ago, I asked the exact question you just answered.
I wrote: But when do you get to choose: after 1 level in Monk, or after 4? Which do you think, and why? So the Ninja Ki Points benefit from levels in other classes that have Ki Pools, and then when the character reaches the level in the 2nd class when he gains the Ki Pool Ability, that's when he has to choose which ability score modifies the Ki.
Thank you!
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Maybe I'm crazy (I probably am for sticking my nose into this) but my reading is as follows:
1. You start out as a Ninja. When you reach level 2, you get 1+X, where X is your charisma bonus, ki points in your pool.
2. When you reach 3rd level, you take a level in Monk. Monk is a class that grants a ki pool, so you gain another ki point in your Ninja pool
3. You continue to take Monk levels. At Monk level 4, you gain another ki pool. You get 2+Y, where Y is your wisdom modifier, points in this pool. At the same time, your Ninja pool is now 3+X ki points (6 character levels in classes that grant a ki pool, divided by 2, plus your charisma bonus.
Alternatively:
1. You start as a Monk, taking 2 levels. No ki pool yet.
2. At level 3 you switch to Ninja. Still no Ki pool.
3. At level 4, you get your Ninja pool: 4/2+X ki points.
4. At level 5, you switch back to Monk. 5/2+X=3+X ki points in your Ninja pool. No Monk pool yet.
5. At level 6, you gain another Monk level, so you are Ninja 2/Monk 4. You gain your Monk ki pool, with 2+Y ki points. Your Ninja pool is still 3+X points.
In either case, you now have both pools, and you must decide which one you're going to use now and in the future. Once that decision is made, the other ki pool is irrelevant. The decision, though, comes at the point where you actually gain the second pool, not before.
Ed Reppert wrote: When you reach 3rd level, you take a level in Monk. Monk is a class that grants a ki pool, so you gain another ki point in your Ninja pool I don't think you round up. I don't think you'd get your next Ki Point until level 4.
Ed Reppert wrote: You continue to take Monk levels. At Monk level 4, you gain another ki pool. My character is going to be a Drunken Master, so he'll have all the Ki he wants after just 1 more level, anyway.
Your alternative looks accurate, and does represent a delay in gaining Ki. So hopefully, you would have a compelling reason to do that.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't think you round up. I don't think you'd get your next Ki Point until level 4.
You might be right. I based that on "minimum 1", so you would round up if the result of the calculation was 1/2. That doesn't mean you always round up, though, and IIRC the default is to round down. Or is it?
Edit: yeah, it is. I looked up "rounding" in the prd.
Hi guys I'm new to Pathfinder (and tabletop in general) and I have a question that I haven't been able to find an answer to. Are class features the same thing as feats? I'm going through the process of character creation to practice a little bit before I can join a group and I'm trying to make a human Ranger. He would start with 2 feats, but the table for Ranger class features has Track, Wild Empathy, and Favoured Enemy. Do I get the class features AND 2 feats as well? Sorry if this info is somewhere else but I haven't had any luck and I'm a little stuck right now
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Yes, you get the class features and two feats.
Some class features are feats, or there are feats that duplicate them (for classes that don't have the feature). Armor proficiencies, for example. But that is separate from the feats you can add at odd levels, a racial bonus feat, or feats you get as part of your class progression (e.g. a fighter's bonus feats).
So for example my character could have favoured enemy, track, wild empathy, point blank shot, and precise shot? Or would there be something better to choose? I'm just playing with the system right now TBH. I'm hoping to join a club at my school eventually but for now I just want to learn enough to not annoy them when I do. And thanks for the super fast response!
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
You could, yes. You could also hold off on precise shot, and get weapon focus (longbow or whatever) instead. Then you can get precise shot as your next feat, at level 2. A lot depends on what you want your character to do.
If you can afford it, you might find the Strategy Guide helpful.
I see. Thanks for the tip. I'm still completely green so the number crunching and all that stuff isn't really clicking yet :)
Locking. I don't think that continuing a back and forth argument in a years old thread is particularly productive.
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