If something (say a feat) requires a specific class feature, do I actually have to have gained that particular ability yet? Or is the fact that I'm in a class that has that feature enough?
For instance Dimensional Agility has the Abundant step class feature as a req. Can I start taking the feats before I gain access to abundant step?
The wording sounds weird. I feel like it should just say 'abundant step' as a req, instead of abundant step class feature.
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You don't have a class feature unless you actually have the class feature. So if you're not high enough level yet to have it, or your archetype swaps out that feature for something else, you do not have that feature and can't use it as a prerequisite.
If something (say a feat) requires a specific class feature, do I actually have to have gained that particular ability yet? Or is the fact that I'm in a class that has that feature enough?
For instance Dimensional Agility has the Abundant step class feature as a req. Can I start taking the feats before I gain access to abundant step?
The wording sounds weird. I feel like it should just say 'abundant step' as a req, instead of abundant step class feature.
You need to actually have the ability. Notice, that because of the order in which things happen when you level up, you gain the class features of a new level BEFORE you select feats for that level, if you gain a class feature and have a feat to spend that same level, you can take a feat with that feature as a prereq.
To go with your abundant step/dimensional agility example: You get abundant step at monk lvl 12. You don't get a feat at 12th level, but if you had taken, let's say, 3 levels in brutal pugilist, then when you gain monk lvl 12, it is actualy lvl 15 for you, so you would gain a feat then. You can spend that feat on dimensional agility, since you now have the class ability prereq.
If you are going straight monk, you cannot take the dimensional agility feat until level 13.
EDIT: ninja'd by SKR. Stupid Paizo and their stupid responsive staff with their stupid interacting with their customer base and providing a stupid positive experience.
You don't have a class feature unless you actually have the class feature. So if you're not high enough level yet to have it, or your archetype swaps out that feature for something else, you do not have that feature and can't use it as a prerequisite.
Thanks!
Deanmail, you know you're replying to four- and five-year-old threads, right? It's probably not going to help them, no.Yeah, but he's just trying to help.
Except he posted exactly the same thing in at least four old threads, which makes me think he's trying to sell something, like the product he gives the URL for. Eh. :-/
Anyway, now I have a question.
Perhaps Ki Pool is an exception to this rule?
If I were a level 2 Ninja/Level 2 Monk, don't those levels stack, rewarding 2 Ki Points + my choice in either Charisma or Wisdom mods? I don't think I actually need to reach level 4 Monk to pool my Ki Pool.
Nope, it's not like uncanny dodge. Ki pools stack (kinda) but not levels in ki pool classes. You don't get a monk ki pool until you are a level 4 monk, so you don't have anything to add to your ninja pool til then.
EDIT: Uncanny dodge was a terrible example; a rogue/barbarian doesn't get to add his levels together until he's acquired uncanny dodge in each class, not as soon as he gets it in either.
Oh, good catch. My bad, should have checked.
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You don't get a monk ki pool until you are a level 4 monk, so you don't have anything to add to your ninja pool til then.I'm not completely convinced that you are wrong about that, but
Ki pools stack (kinda) but not levels in ki pool classes.But the levels do indeed stack.
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool,
Yes, but, since you don't get a Monk Ki pool until you reach 4th level Monk, those levels don't grant extra Ki points when they don't yet grant Ki points, since levels 1-3 in Monk don't have access to the Ki pool feature until you reach 4th level Monk.
Which also answers the question of when you have to choose, which is when both classes actually have the Ki pool feature, not before.
Ninja 2/Monk 2 would be the same as just a Ninja 2.
Ninja 2/Monk 4 would have the levels stack, and the Ki pool attribute choice.
Byakko is right. Stacking levels is irrelevant until both classes have the class feature.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool
Monk doesn't grant points to a ki pool until level 4.
You don't have a class feature until you reach the level you gain it
FAQ - 2nd example is probably most relevant
A monk only has a ki pool at level 4, until then it doesn't.
Using your example, would a wizard 1/cleric 1 qualify for the casting requirements of mystic theurge?
Shouldn't do, because you don't gain 2nd level spell casting until 3rd level.
A wizard 1 doesn't have 9th level spellcasting as a class feature, he has 1st level spellcasting that will eventually become 9th level casting.
Your monk does not have a ki pool at all until level 4. That is the bottom line.
I can try and dress it up, use bad analogies, or find better ways to explain it. but until level 4 your monk does not have a ki pool.
Once you hit level 4 you gain a ki pool that counts levels 1-3, but at levels 1-3 you do not have a ki pool, so those levels do not intrinsically grant ki points.
If you do not have a ki pool you do not have any levels that grant you ki points.
You do not have a class feature until you reach the level you gain that class feature.
Just because a class potentially could get something doesn't mean it's a class with that.
Lv1-3 of a monk are not levels of a class that grant ki pool, because until lv4 you can freely take an archetype that removes ki pool (as long as it's not changing anything you already have).
Because otherwise you're saying that the martial artist monk also counts because monk is a class that grants a ki pool, I just don't have one yet.
This has been answered in the FAQ, as noted by dragonhunterq.
When do I count as having a class feature?
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
Since a Monk 2 has not yet been granted the Ki Pool class feature, a Monk 2 "does not count" as having that class feature. Ergo, Monk levels will not stack with Ninja levels for the purposes of a combined Ki Pool until the Monk reaches level 4 and actually gets access to its Ki Pool. Until the Monk reaches the level where it actually has the class feature, it is not a class that grants the class feature.
The examples in the FAQ are pretty directly relevant here, too.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
A Ninja 2/Monk 2 has a Ki Pool. That Ki Pool is calculated based on Ninja levels, because that is the only class that has at that point made the ability available. When the Ninja/Monk reaches Monk level 4, it now has access to the Monk class feature Ki Pool. Up to that point, the Monk was contributing nothing to the Ninja Ki Pool. At the point Monk 4 happens, the levels stack for purposes of calculating the combined Ki Pool.
Scott, are you arguing "it shouldn't work this way but by a very very strict reading of RAW it does" or "it was meant to work this way"? ("This way" being that you don't have to wait for Monk 4 to add in the monk levels.)
If the latter, I am curious what you think the reasons were that they wanted this to be a special exception, as well as why they didn't call it out as such.
Well, that is clearly false: my Monk does have a Ki Pool because he has 2 levels in Ninja.
Class features only apply to the class that grants them.
Your ninja levels have a ki pool, your monk levels do not.Your monk only gains a ki pool at level 4.
Your monk does not have a ki pool at all until level 4.
You do not have a class feature until you reach the level you gain that class feature.
Once you hit level 4 you gain a ki pool that counts levels 1-3, but at levels 1-3 you do not have a ki pool, so those levels do not intrinsically grant ki points.
Agree with the above.
But even if I never took any levels in Monk, the Monk Class is a Class that gives Ki Points. If I never took any levels in Wizard, Wizard is a class that grants Spells. As dragonhunterq pointed out, even in the Core Rulebook, there is a difference between having levels in a class that has an ability and having an ability. We can't suppose the consequence that I am observing was unintended.
So you, dragonhunter, brought good evidence that you need to reach the level to gain the ability. But I don't see how the evidence you brought demonstrates that "having levels in a class that grants an ability" (Monk) = "having the ability." (not till Level 4)
The text of the ninja ability refers to a class that grants ki, not a character that has ki from that class.
Q: Does the Monk class grant ki?A: Yes, at level 4.
Therefore it is a class that grants ki. This satisfies the ninja text.
you're saying that the martial artist monk also counts because monk is a class that grants a ki pool, I just don't have one yet.
That's an interesting point. I am not completely sure what to make of that.
Monk(Martial Artist) trades out ki pool. Therefore as a class, it does not grant ki. Thus levels in Monk(Martial Artist) will not add to the ninja ability.
/cevah
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The text of the ninja ability refers to a class that grants ki, not a character that has ki from that class.
Q: Does the Monk class grant ki?
A: Yes, at level 4.
Therefore it is a class that grants ki. This satisfies the ninja text.
No it says:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool
Monk doesn't grant points to a ki pool until level 3 or 4 depending on Unchained or Normal.
So you get nothing for level 2.
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The text of the ninja ability refers to a class that grants ki, not a character that has ki from that class.
Q: Does the Monk class grant ki?
A: Yes, at level 4.
Therefore it is a class that grants ki. This satisfies the ninja text.No it says:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki poolMonk doesn't grant points to a ki pool until level 3 or 4 depending on Unchained or Normal.
So you get nothing for level 2.
I think their point is that there is a difference between:
"Class the grants points to a ki pool"
and:
"Another class from which you have points in a ki pool" or something similar in wording. The first implies that the only prerequisite is that the class is capable of granting points into the pool, whereas the second implies that it already is granting you said points. I can see the argument that the first doesn't require you to be at a point in the class where it is granting you the ki points, only that it must be able to do so at some point in the future. No strong opinion either way :)
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I can see the argument that the first doesn't require you to be at a point in the class where it is granting you the ki points, only that it must be able to do so at some point in the future. No strong opinion either way :)
But we have a deafening choir of developer quotes and FAQ saying "you don't have a class feature until you do", so any interpretation that goes "the class is capable of granting" is deeply flawed rules interpretations.
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I can see the argument that the first doesn't require you to be at a point in the class where it is granting you the ki points, only that it must be able to do so at some point in the future. No strong opinion either way :)But we have a deafening choir of developer quotes and FAQ saying "you don't have a class feature until you do", so any interpretation that goes "the class is capable of granting" is deeply flawed rules interpretations.
Yeah, I can definitely see that. I do agree with you for the most part, I was just pointing out that there is a difference in the language from the FAQs you're talking about and the language for stacking here - namely that the FAQs are about when you have a class feature, and it seems like the stacking ki pools doesn't require you to have a class feature, just that the class may grant it. Slight language difference, but is why there is an argument about this I guess :)
That is the basis for the misunderstanding, yes. There are two ways to understand and interpret the language used. Thus, superficially, there is ambiguity.
As noted though, we have abundantly clear directives from the designers of the game that only one of those possible interpretations is the correct reading. That correct reading is the one that says Monk isn't a class that provides a Ki Pool until the relevant level which provides access to said Ki Pool is achieved.
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We also have clear evidence to the contrary in the spell casting abilities of the Ranger and Paladin. At levels 1-3 they cannot cast spells yet they can use wands if the spell is on their list.
The spell list is part of the class ability called "Spells", not its own thing. So why do they get a pass?
It is not consistent.
/cevah
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The spell list is part of the class ability called "Spells", not its own thing. So why do they get a pass?
It is not consistent.
It doesn't have to be consistent.
They don't do consistent, with similar abilities being written in a variety of ways.
This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin
In this case we have a specific rule allowing this.
That doesn't mean this should be applied to other things.
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Rules do have to be pretty consistent.
The answer is clearly 2
The answer isn't 2. We know from a FAQ the Ninja ability doesn't enhance the Monk like that, period. If this gets FAQ treatment I promise you it doesn't go your way.
You are trying to extrapolate a game mechanic, in this case "class spell list", with a special thing that allows it to work so long as you have 1 level in a class.
Think of it this way, if you have a level in Wizard all Wizard spells are on your class spell list. If you have a rule that needs to audit that class spell list (not your spell list), then it gets a "yes on it" answer when you ask it about a wizard spell.
We also have clear evidence to the contrary in the spell casting abilities of the Ranger and Paladin. At levels 1-3 they cannot cast spells yet they can use wands if the spell is on their list.
The spell list is part of the class ability called "Spells", not its own thing. So why do they get a pass?
It is not consistent.
/cevah
As James noted, we have an explicit mention in the rules as to how this scenario is intended to function. It functions differently because we are explicitly told it functions differently.
James, I beg to differ.
Rules do have to be pretty consistent. Otherwise, you aren't playing a game. If there is an exception to the rules, it needs to be stated.
The fact that a level 1 Wizard can use a Wand of Fireballs means that she has 1 level in a class that grants the ability to cast Fireballs.
So, how many levels does a level 2 Monk have in a class that grants Ki Points?
The answer is clearly 2. You need 4 for the Monk Class to grant you the ability, and if you have 2, that's not enough for that Class to grant that ability.
But 2 does not equal 0.
In terms of having levels in a class that grants a Ki Pool, yes, 2 can equal 0.
Rules do not have to consistently apply in situations where we are told they are supposed to apply differently. Wands function differently because we're explicitly told they function differently. Thus, it isn't a problem if the rules function differently in these two scenarios because we're told how they differ and how to treat them in their respective situations.
That is clearly false.
Ninja also have Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack bonuses from all sources-- Snakebite Striker, Feats, Vivisectionist, and others--stack.
Of course sneak attack stacks. You simply get bonus damage dice whenever you make a qualifying attack. This isn't relevant to anything being discussed here.
With respect to Familiars, all your levels in all your classes that have the Familiar Class Ability—Wizards, Witches, Eldritch Guardians, and Alchemists and Sorcerers that have Familiars--stack with respect to the abilities of your Familiar.
And we're explicitly told in the rules how those levels interact. However, when a character class has a delay in access, those levels don't start counting right away.
A Cavalier/Druid who names her Mount as also her Animal Companion sees her Druid and Cavalier Levels Stack with respect to the Level of her Animal Companion.
And we're explicitly told in the rules how those levels interact. However, when a character class has a delay in access, those levels don't start counting right away. For instance, a Druid 4/Paladin 2 would have the AC of a Druid 4. A Druid 4/Paladin 5 would have an effective Druid Level of 9.
Alchemists can learn Extracts from Sorcerer/Wizard Spellbooks and Scrolls that have Spells that are also Alchemist Extracts.
And we're explicitly told in the rules how those abilities interact. Though it is interesting that this doesn't work the other way around. Again though, we're told explicitly how those abilities interact.
Levels in Brawler and Eldritch Knight count as Fighter Levels when it comes to qualifying for feats such as Weapon Specialization.
Once again, we're explicitly told in the rules how those levels count and how the abilities interact.
So the point you were responding to, that class abilities are generally relevant only to that class, is true, excepting those situations where we're told how they interact. Each of these situations you've pointed to abides by that. But more importantly, that doesn't really relate to the larger point here regarding when one particular class counts as having a class ability, even for the purposes of how that ability might interact with another class with the same or a similar ability.
Monk's don't have a Ki Pool until level 4. They don't count as being a class that grants a Ki Pool until it actually does so. Thus, until that Monk is level 4, Monk levels don't stack with Ninja levels for the purpose of a combined Ki Pool.
What happens with a Ninja 4/Monk 2 when the player is intending to be a Martial Artist or Wild Cat Monk? Both of those archetypes lose Ki Pool. Yet the player doesn't have to commit to either of them until level 3.
Does the player get to count Monk levels towards the combined Ki Pool up to third level?
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Monk is not a class that grants ki pool until it's received the ki pool ability. Lv1-3 monk isn't a class that grants ki pool. at lv4 upon getting the ki pool ability is it a class that grants ki pool.
I didn't ignore anything. I saw that he brought it up, but you didn't address this specific issue. You kind of shrugged it off. None of what you responded with is actually rules relevant but rather how you'd play it. That's fine as a general matter, but not when we're discussing the specifics of the rules.
You do not have to commit to either the Martial Artist or Wild Cat archetypes of Monk until you are 3rd level. There is nothing in the rules which locks you in in this regard before you actually have to make that choice.
So can you or can you not count Monk 2 towards a Ninja's Ki Pool? Not all Monk 2 belong to a class that even prospectively will grant a Ki Pool. So how do you make that determination?
How many ki points is a lv2 monk granting? 0. This it's currently not a class granting ki points.
And fretgod99, Scott did address this question about the martial artist and his reasoning holds here. You must decide the archetype when it would affect something, normally that's the level where you get the ability. But if Scott was correct that gaining the ability at some point qualified you for counting then it's something you'd have had to decide at your first level of the class.
Also Scott, I don't stalk you. I just happen to be on the boards a lot looking at threads that have had recent posts. And I feel that much of what you say is incorrect, thus I throw out saying so. You should notice that if it's not directly related to the OP's question I'll often say something like, "scott believes X, many people don't agree with this view and think he's wrong." and leave it at that. Only if an argument is already there would I join in on a derail. Most if not all of the "ad hominem" attacks are responses to people saying, "Why are you arguing this/We know how this works, why are you bringing this up" and I share that you very strongly believe you're correct and very rarely change your mind regardless of any arguments people make. That you're often not really looking for clarification but are wanting to change how the majority thinks something works.
I just really want to clarify that I have nothing personal against you and hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you. And I'm sorry if it came off that way.
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Monk is not a class that grants ki pool until it's received the ki pool ability. Lv1-3 monk isn't a class that grants ki pool. at lv4 upon getting the ki pool ability is it a class that grants ki pool.
+1
Again, Scott, this is the explicit thing the FAQ handles.
Monk 2 doesn't have Ki Pool class ability, so doesn't add to the Ninja pool.
Lulz. Taking dragonhunter out of context and saying, "See! Class abilities interact!" has no actual impact on this debate. Neither does implying that I am saying 2=0 in a vacuum. Both are clear attempts to Strawman and deflect from a weak position. Par for the course, I suppose. *shrug*
Two levels in a class that doesn't grant an ability until 4th level is as good as having zero levels in that class, in so far as that particular ability is concerned. No rules citation necessary; it's basic logic and reading analysis. Thus, in that context, 2=0 (which is shorthand, in that context, for two is functionally equivalent to zero - or, to be even more precise, having two levels in that class is as beneficial for the relevant ability as having no levels in that class).
And we have one of those situations here. We're instructed by the FAQ that you do not count as having the class ability for the Monk class until you reach the level as a Monk where that ability is granted.
That a Ninja 2/Monk 2 has a Ki Pool from its Ninja classes has no bearing on whether the character has a Ki Pool from its Monk class. It does not. Thus, at the time we're considering this, only one class is a class which gives access to a Ki Pool.