Explain the hit point totals.
Sure:
You'll have a decent to high CON because you don't desperately need any other stat badly except CHR. (Other people think DEX is more important; I don't agree.)
You'll craft a +CON item early and upgrade it pretty early relative to most of the party, because A) You don't really need a STR or DEX item, B) There isn't really another higher priority for your cash other than a CHR item, and C) You're not sinking money into weapons or armor.
If you're not human, all of your favored class bonii will go into HP; if you are human, the first few will still go there. If you're human, use one of those bonus spells to pick up False Life for sure; you probably should think about doing this even if you're not. Recast it every time you're not in combat and you've burned through the bonus HP. One of the perks to being a sorcerer is you'll cast it exactly as many times during the day at your full caster level as you need to. If one cast gets you through, no problem, if you need to cast it six times because you keep taking damage, you certainly can.
Pick Toughness as a feat; it's pretty easy to fit in for a Sorcerer. As most other characters I have a really hard time justifying it because there's some other feat I desperately need to keep my offense up.
This isn't theorycraft, incidentally; I'm playing a fey bloodline sorcerer in one of the games I'm currently in, and I typically have indeed had the highest or near the highest HP total in the party as we've progressed through the levels. My AC is compltely awful, but who cares?
Explain the hit point totals.Sure:
You'll have a decent to high CON because you don't desperately need any other stat badly except CHR. (Other people think DEX is more important; I don't agree.)
You'll craft a +CON item early and upgrade it pretty early relative to most of the party, because A) You don't really need a STR or DEX item, B) There isn't really another higher priority for your cash other than a CHR item, and C) You're not sinking money into weapons or armor.
If you're not human, all of your favored class bonii will go into HP; if you are human, the first few will still go there. If you're human, use one of those bonus spells to pick up False Life for sure; you probably should think about doing this even if you're not. Recast it every time you're not in combat and you've burned through the bonus HP. One of the perks to being a sorcerer is you'll cast it exactly as many times during the day at your full caster level as you need to. If one cast gets you through, no problem, if you need to cast it six times because you keep taking damage, you certainly can.
Pick Toughness as a feat; it's pretty easy to fit in for a Sorcerer. As most other characters I have a really hard time justifying it because there's some other feat I desperately need to keep my offense up.
This isn't theorycraft, incidentally; I'm playing a fey bloodline sorcerer in one of the games I'm currently in, and I typically have indeed had the highest or near the highest HP total in the party as we've progressed through the levels. My AC is compltely awful, but who cares?
So basically nothing unique about the sorcerer class, all things wizards regularly take as well.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If your wizard is benefitting from a cohort which you left behind in a library and the BBEG finds out that the cohort isn't protected, don't cry like a biotch when the cohort ends up murdered. That's why they're called Big Bad Evil Guys.
Remind me to play Leroy Jethro Gibbs in your games. "No brothers, no uncles, my father died years ago. I do however have three ex-wives whos names and addresses I'd be willing to fax to you."*
*
If your wizard is benefitting from a cohort which you left behind in a library and the BBEG finds out that the cohort isn't protected, don't cry like a biotch when the cohort ends up murdered. That's why they're called Big Bad Evil Guys.And considering Cohorts, I've already made a point earlier in this thread that you don't hardly even need Charisma to get a Max Level Cohort starting at level 7A point I already illustrated was wrong since a level is lost every time the cohort is rezzed and the wizard's cohort is going to start at a much lower level which increases his chances of reepeatedly dying.It's easy to level up a cohort and keep him alive. By RAW, they don't even need to adventure with you to gain XP. They simply gain a proportion of the XP that you get, based on your respective levels. Even if they're sitting in a library, researching some obscure information on behalf of the party, while everyone else is off slaughtering things, they gain XP.
Okay, maybe this defies logic, but it's how it works by RAW.
@KaptainKrunch - I'm not claiming superiority of a Sorcerer over a Wizard, I'm simply saying that your assertion of "I win!" looks great on paper, but it might not fly in the real(?) world.
Refusing to accept the concept of an "Auto-Win Wizard" isn't a slam on you or your build. My response would be the same to someone who claimed to have an "Auto-Win Sorcerer".
Just keep him in your bag of holding with your Familiar.
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If your wizard is benefitting from a cohort which you left behind in a library and the BBEG finds out that the cohort isn't protected, don't cry like a biotch when the cohort ends up murdered. That's why they're called Big Bad Evil Guys.
Okay, but I kind of figured that most BBEGs have better things to occupy their time than hunting down every person who might possibly be of benefit to a PC.
It sounds like you're used to your cohort being disintegrated the moment you leave the room. If so, your GM is just being a prick, IMO.
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If your wizard is benefitting from a cohort which you left behind in a library and the BBEG finds out that the cohort isn't protected, don't cry like a biotch when the cohort ends up murdered. That's why they're called Big Bad Evil Guys.
Just keep him in your bag of holding with your Familiar.
Dude, that's awesome.
If I'm misreading something, it isn't intentional. What do you think I'm misreading?
The part where every time your cohort dies your leadership score goes down. That's not quite what the rule says.
So basically nothing unique about the sorcerer class, all things wizards regularly take as well.
Right. It's not a "wizards vs. sorcerers" argument, despite the topic. It's a "No, trying for laughing touch is not a suicide move" argument.
So basically nothing unique about the sorcerer class, all things wizards regularly take as well.Right. It's not a "wizards vs. sorcerers" argument, despite the topic. It's a "No, trying for laughing touch is not a suicide move" argument.
Except a primary spellcaster that is worth a damn would have something better to do than risk his life making touch attacks and the only thing a sorcerer can do to make his class worthwhile besides take 19 levels in wizard is use the human favored class ability.
Except a primary spellcaster that is worth a damn would have something better to do than risk his life making touch attacks
If, in an encounter with a single tough enemy, you always have something better to do than be guaranteed to trade your turn for its, no SR, no saving throw, no matter what it is, whether it's the first encounter of the day or the fifteenth, you're better at playing a spellcaster than I am.
and the only thing a sorcerer can do to make his class worthwhile besides take 19 levels in wizard is use the human favored class ability.
I have no idea what that has to do with anything I've been saying.
That's true. Its a -2 per cohort. Which means that if you keep bringing him back (making him lower and lower level and, so, accelerating his level loss due to rez), you only take a -2 to your mod.
Two more things:
1) You need to read resurrection again, because that doesn't work the way you think it does, either, and
2) You only take a penalty if you get the cohort killed. Not anytime he dies.
Actually they said you conceded. And you agreed. Thus you admitted you were wrong and we moved on.
That is what that means.
I said I conceded that metamagic scrolls could be made AND that meta'd scrolls could be scribed as a result of it.
If 'they' didn't say that, then obviously I didn't concede.
==Aelryinth
Hi Mr Half Iron Golem Ghost, I want to touch you, I'm the weird looking chick who is always depicted in the skimpiest set of robes so you know my touches are laced with weird effects, please don't flatten me like Wile E. Coyote when one of this traps fails?
A touch attack is bad for sorcerers and wizards.
If your sorcerer doesn't have one of the highest HP totals in the party, you're doing it wrong. And you've got better defenses than AC, which largely falls out of the game in the midlevels unless you're going all-in on it anyway.
Past level 10 there's always quickened true strike if you want to be really really sure you aren't going to miss. (Although, most of the higher level scary melee monsters have truly abysmal touch ACs, so you probably aren't going to miss even without it.) Again, if you're dealing with a single tough enemy and getting a free round for the rest of your party to do something isn't huge, you (well, the rest of the party) are doing it wrong.
'Better defenses then AC' tend to fall out of usefulness in the high level game, where every monster and its cousin has true seeing, blind sight, blind sense, tremorsense, or something similar to ignore all those things that grant miss chance, too.
Wizards tend to have as many hp or more then the Sorc. They get the bonus feat to make the Con item, and they don't really have a favored class ability that's all that much better then HP, either. The main advantage for the sorc in this circumstance is he doesn't have to pay cash to scribe/acquire spells. All else is pretty equal.
The False Life thing is great for the sorceror, however. Basically DR=CL every time you cast the thing, it's like a precast healing spell for the sorc, and what else are you going to do with those level 2 slots at higher level?
I would also like to point out for the initiative monkeys that there's nothing stopping a sorceror from taking Contingency to activate when they have a hostile Time Stop go off near them. SOmething as simple as a Dimension Door back to a safe area, and he can just wait out the summoning spells, or take his own precautions. It's just a shame you can't Contingency a Time Stop to respond to an enemy Time Stop!
Counterpoint, remember the SOrceror burns spells Known for Planar Allies and accompanying spells. THe wizard truly can do it ahead of time, and have his full spell load the next day.
==Aelryinth
Actually they said you conceded. And you agreed. Thus you admitted you were wrong and we moved on.
That is what that means.
I said I conceded that metamagic scrolls could be made AND that meta'd scrolls could be scribed as a result of it.
If 'they' didn't say that, then obviously I didn't concede.
==Aelryinth
FINALLY. BARBARIAN AM WAITING LIKE SEVENTY BILLION HOURS FOR CASTY SHOW 7 CHA FACE BACK ON BOARD.
...BARBARIAN AM SOMEWHAT UNDERWHELMED. AM WITTY WORDPLAY ALL CASTY HAS? AM SQUIRREL GOING AROUND TREE OR NOT IF AM CIRCLING TREE BUT AM NOT CHANGING RELATIVE DIRECTION TO TREE. AM NOT MATTER, BARBARIAN AM SUNDER TREE. BARBARIAN SUNDER MANY THINGS.
NEVER SUNDER LADYPARTS. AM STILL RUDE.
CASTY AM NOW ARGUING POINT VERSUS BARBARIAN. AM DANGEROUS PROSPECT. STILL, BARBARIAN ABLE TO GET POINT ACROSS. BARBARIAN SUNDER WITH FACTS. AM ABLE TO USE SMASHER TO IGNORE SKULL HARDNESS, CLEARLY AM UNATTENDED OBJECT. AM EVEN POWER ATTACK FOR FULL WITH RAGELANCEPOUNCE OF FACT. BEHOLD.
CLEARLY CASTY AM WRONG. METAMAGIC SCROLLS AM SCRIBABLE, BUT NOT GET FEETS.
AM NOT ABLE TO SCRIBE FEETS. FEETS AM OBJECTS AND MUST BE DRAWN. DUUH.
AM INDISPUTABLE FACT. BARBARIAN AM WINNER AGAIN.
BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
. BARBARIAN SUNDER WITH FACTS. AM ABLE TO USE SMASHER TO IGNORE SKULL HARDNESS, CLEARLY AM UNATTENDED OBJECT.
And that why AM BARBARIAN is my favorite. ;-)
1) You need to read resurrection again, because that doesn't work the way you think it does, either,I just reread the spell. It does, in fact, cause level loss like I said.
Are you sure you're not reading the 3.5 rules?
I just reread the spell. It does, in fact, cause level loss like I said.
That's not what a negative level means.
So, if he dies because of you (eg. he dies because he took a spell he wouldn't have taken if he weren't adventuring with you or he dies because he was targetted by somebody he would not have been targetted by if he weren't adventuring with you), then you take the penalty.
If you have a GM who reads it that way, find a new GM who's remotely reasonable.
I mean, sure. Let's say the bad guy kills the cohort. If I'm roleplaying him, I'm going to taunt the PC and say it's all his fault. But if the GM believes that it's actually true, there is something wrong with them, not as a GM but as a person.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So, if he dies because of you (eg. he dies because he took a spell he wouldn't have taken if he weren't adventuring with you or he dies because he was targetted by somebody he would not have been targetted by if he weren't adventuring with you), then you take the penalty.If you have a GM who reads it that way, find a new GM who's remotely reasonable.
I mean, sure. Let's say the bad guy kills the cohort. If I'm roleplaying him, I'm going to taunt the PC and say it's all his fault. But if the GM believes that it's actually true, there is something wrong with them, not as a GM but as a person.
"Your cohort slipped on the soap and fell out the window. You picked his spells. It's your fault he didn't have Feather Fall!" ;-)
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That's true. Its a -2 per cohort. Which means that if you keep bringing him back (making him lower and lower level and, so, accelerating his level loss due to rez), you only take a -2 to your mod.Two more things:
1) You need to read resurrection again, because that doesn't work the way you think it does, either, and
2) You only take a penalty if you get the cohort killed. Not anytime he dies.
If you want to rules lawyer, then any time you kill someones cohort you lose -2...
I think the intent is pretty clear. If you keep getting your cohort killed you lose 2.
The fact you bring him back to life doesn't make him less dead, and by the same token doing it multiple times shouldn't burn you.
I see it as more of a way of avoiding people switching cohorts.
I think the intent is pretty clear. If you keep getting your cohort killed you lose 2.
Sure. My point is, if your cohort has a heart attack or some random psychopath kills him, that isn't you getting your cohort killed.
Your GM can have your cohort ruthlessly murdered every time he walks away from your PC to pee in the bushes, but it's ridiculous to blame the PC for not going along each time.
FINALLY. BARBARIAN AM WAITING LIKE SEVENTY BILLION HOURS FOR CASTY SHOW 7 CHA FACE BACK ON BOARD.
HAHA, SEE? BARBARIAN AM WANTING CHARISMA DUMP STAT WIZURD, NOT FANCY TALKY SORCERER! WIZURD WANTED MORE THAN SORCERER!
AM HAVING ALL SPELLS AND METAMAGIC FEATS. AM CASTING SILENT SHATTER!
The -2 isn't inflicted due to random events, but to events that wouldn't have happened if the cohort wasn't associated with the PC.
If people weren't working jobs in America, they wouldn't have died on 9/11.
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? Its like you're putting words together, but the sentences are senseless ravings.If people weren't working jobs in America, they wouldn't have died on 9/11.
You said: "The -2 isn't inflicted due to random events, but to events that wouldn't have happened if the cohort wasn't associated with the PC."
Both of these statements use the same bad logic; they blame the victim of another's action for that action.
FINALLY. BARBARIAN AM WAITING LIKE SEVENTY BILLION HOURS FOR CASTY SHOW 7 CHA FACE BACK ON BOARD.
HAHA, SEE? BARBARIAN AM WANTING CHARISMA DUMP STAT WIZURD, NOT FANCY TALKY SORCERER! WIZURD WANTED MORE THAN SORCERER!
AM HAVING ALL SPELLS AND METAMAGIC FEATS. AM CASTING SILENT SHATTER!
Stupid AM BARBARIAN. The Sorcerer can summon entities all day long. That means, let me spell this out for you, you don't have to go far from the mead hall in order to kill some critters that are actually fun to kill!FINALLY. BARBARIAN AM WAITING LIKE SEVENTY BILLION HOURS FOR CASTY SHOW 7 CHA FACE BACK ON BOARD.
HAHA, SEE? BARBARIAN AM WANTING CHARISMA DUMP STAT WIZURD, NOT FANCY TALKY SORCERER! WIZURD WANTED MORE THAN SORCERER!
AM HAVING ALL SPELLS AND METAMAGIC FEATS. AM CASTING SILENT SHATTER!
BARBARIAN NOT SURE WHAT CASTY MEAN BY THIS. DUCKS AM HORRIBLE SPELLERS, UNPARRENTLY.
"Your cohort slipped on the soap and fell out the window. You picked his spells. It's your fault he didn't have Feather Fall!" ;-)
Don't you hate when that happens?! I had one die of the flu...
The fact that we need to argue about when to apply the -2 is another nail in the coffin as to why almost no one allows the feat/subsystem.
Since almost no one uses the feat, if you have a GM that allows it, he/she will have his/her own interpretation of the death penalty, accept/use that interpretation.
In essence, this is a moot discussion because it is one of those things punted to the GM to arbitrate.
P.S. For sh*ts and giggles, I agree with Dire Mongooses' argument.
Even a freaking Grease will have the same effect because it is difficult terrain which will end up taking so much from his movement so he can only move this round.
You go melee, cast a 5th level spell, and then he can also only move this round.WOW! Great bloodline feature!
You get a saving throw. Fly beats it. Freedom of Movement beats it. Etc.
None of which beats laughing touch.
And if you'll notice, I also said that quickening true strike was usually unnecessary / overkill. A staggering number of terrifying melee monsters have touch ACs that aren't even 10.
(And if it's not a terrifying melee monster, you aren't scared to get into melee with it in the first place so the whole argument is moot.)