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My thoughts:
Scrolls can be scribed with metamagic pre-applied, as is evidenced by riffle scrolls.
Scrolls with the metamagic version of a spell that are coppied into a spellbook will simple result in the normal version of the spell being placed in the spellbook. They are, after all, merely a modified version of the normal spell.
If I use Aelyrinth's rules, all I have to do is find a wizard with Quicken Spell and magic missile and copy it into my spellbook.
No. Even if you use Aelyrunth's rules it is more complicated than that.
You need to find a spellcaster with magic missile, quicken spell and scribe scroll.
You need to have him write as quickened scroll.
You have to pay for it.
You need to comprehend it.
At that point you can scribe the spell in your spellbook as the metamagiched spell Quckened Magic Missile.If you want to skip the scroll part, the spellcaster need to be from a class that use spellbooks, he need to have, at some time, got a copy of the spell with the appropriate metamagic and to have copied it in his spellbook.
in the example of the Quickened MM he will, as a minimum, ask for the money he would ask for copying a level 5 spell. Even more if possible.
That is not that complicated.
Every wizard has Scribe Scroll.
Quicken Spell is pretty common.
1,125 gold for a 5th level scroll: Pretty cheap for a spell I would have to pay 5,000 gold to research on my own if I even allowed it.
Read Magic is really, really easy to get.
Much cheaper than buying the feat myself. Save me a resource for a pretty common spell. Doubtful I would get Quickened Magic Missile. More than likely Quickened Shield.
And if this is how it is supposed to be by the rules, how come not a single module I have ever read allows this? If this were allowable, you would think every single wizard and their mother would have a few Metamagic versions of spells scribed in their spell books.
If the game designers meant for this to be the rule, wouldn't at least a few adventure paths have casters without the metamagic feat with metamagic versions of spells in their spellbooks in at least one adventure path dating back to 2008? Why do no modules made by experienced module writers with direct access to the game designers not simply throw a few metamagic versions of spellson wizard spell lists without the caster having the feat?
If Aelryinth's interpretation were in any way correct, then we would see at least a few preparation casters in every single game with a few spells on their list that were metamagic versions of already known spells. Yet we don't.
But somehow Aelryinth knows the rules better than everyone else including the people that design the games and write the rules. I'm just not buying it.
Not buying that you can research metamagicked versions of spells easily and definitely can't scribe a scroll with a metamagicked version of a spell in a spellbook. If that were the rule, it would have already been done many, many times and at least a few spells would be commonplace on every casters spell list.
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Not buying that you can research metamagicked versions of spells easily and definitely can't scribe a scroll with a metamagicked version of a spell in a spellbook. If that were the rule, it would have already been done many, many times and at least a few spells would be commonplace on every casters spell list.
I disagree only on this part and maybe not even on that, all depend of what you mean with "easily".
My opinion as a DM is that is possible to research, for most spells, a version that closely mimic the base spell with a metamagic feat applied to it (i.e. it is possible to research silent, quickened and so on versions of most spells).
As all spell research it require time, money, resources and good spellcraft and knowledge arcana skills on the part of the character.
Then it require the approval of the DM after a check to verify if the spell is balanced.
A level 5 version of magic missile with a swift action casting time launching 5 missiles is acceptable.
A version that launch 10 or 15 missiles because "that is the damage cap of a 5th level spell" isn't.
For me spell research is not something that can be done while adventuring (the class feature of the wizard that allow him to add 2 new spells to his spellbook at each level is already borderline for me if the wizard hasn't the downtime to do soem actual research)
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If I use Aelyrinth's rules, all I have to do is find a wizard with Quicken Spell and magic missile and copy it into my spellbook.
No. Even if you use Aelyrunth's rules it is more complicated than that.
You need to find a spellcaster with magic missile, quicken spell and scribe scroll.
Actually, that's not quite true. The spellcaster wouldn't need Quicken Spell. He would simply have to have previously encountered Quickened magic missile as a spell on a scroll, and copied it into his spell book.
Per Aelryinth's ruling, that caster could then scribe a quickened magic missile scroll for you.
In fact, in Aelryinth's world, there's no need for anyone to ever purchase a metamagic feat.
After centuries of Wizards copying scrolls of Quickened magic missile (or whatever) into their spellbooks, and in turn scribing that spell as a scroll, I would imagine the spell quickened magic missile would be all over the place.
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My thoughts:
Scrolls can be scribed with metamagic pre-applied, as is evidenced by riffle scrolls.
Scrolls with the metamagic version of a spell that are coppied into a spellbook will simple result in the normal version of the spell being placed in the spellbook. They are, after all, merely a modified version of the normal spell.
+1 to this.
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The idea that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed onto a scroll should be dropped, because it has been proven that they can.
Affirming that something has been proven is very far away for proving that thing.
You can feel that you have proven that point, but most of us disagree with you.
As you are essentially claiming DM fiat to prove your point I think there is little reason to continue this discussion.
Then if the fact that it blatantly states in the Core Rulebook that metamagic-enhanced spells can be stored in potions, scrolls, and wands has no bearing on this conversation, then why are we even having it in the first place? If you can't take my word as proof, then perhaps this will help:
If you go to the section called Magic Items and Metamagic feats, you will see quite clearly that it can be done. No DM fiat necessary because its already in the rules.
I quoted this earlier on.
There's your proof. If you can't accept it then that's on you.
So, can we at least agree that this can be done? Once we're over this hump, we can move on to the real issue at the heart of this matter (whatever they may be).
That is not that complicated.
Every wizard has Scribe Scroll.
Quicken Spell is pretty common.
It's even less complicated than you think.
If Aelrynth is right (*shudder*) then you don't need to find a Wizard with quicken spell.
You just need to find a wizard with the quickened magic missile spell. Shouldn't be any harder to find than any other 5th level spell.
Finding a Wizard with quickened spell would actually be quite difficult, since it would be an obsolete feat.
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How many published adventures have you seen where wizards are statted and their spell list there are metamagic-enhanced spells? Now how many times have you seen the spellbook write-up say this:
"All prepared spells plus all 0-level spells plus the following spells"
That line doesn't exclude the metamagic-enhanced prepared spells from this, it says all prepared spells. That would strongly seem to suggest that metamagic-enhanced spells can be scribed into a spellbook. In fact, it makes perfect sense that they would be able to. If you look at the wizard's spellbook as his book of stratagems, then why on earth would you have his metamagic formula be separate from from his arcane formula? If the wizard went through the trouble of learning the metamagic, to be able to add these enhancements to his spells, then why wouldn't he be able to scribe spells with the metamagic already added to them in his spellbook? Its a distinction that clearly defines why a wizard does not have to worry about increasing the casting times of his spells the way that a sorcerer does with hers. Because the metamagic is already added to the spell when he prepares it.
I'm not stating this as fact, not as I did with the metamagic and scroll situation before (that clearly was fact). The only ones that can clear this up really are the designers, but I don't really expect that to happen. The fact that we're even having this conversation is a good for all of us, but more importantly, its good for the game. Because it shows that no matter how bothered we get about certain aspects of it, we all still care about the game.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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How many published adventures have you seen where wizards are statted and their spell list there are metamagic-enhanced spells? Now how many times have you seen the spellbook write-up say this:
"All prepared spells plus all 0-level spells plus the following spells"
That line doesn't exclude the metamagic-enhanced prepared spells from this, it says all prepared spells. That would strongly seem to suggest that metamagic-enhanced spells can be scribed into a spellbook.
Blayde,
All that means is he has (frex) a dispel magic prepared with silent spell. Not that he has a silent dispel magic. Again, you can't find silent dispel magic on any caster's list. If the party gets the spell book, they're going to find just dispel magic. More proof? When a published adventure has a new spell the caster knows Matthew's Magnificant Troll Flaming for example, it will list the new spell in the appendix, adding it to the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Silent dispel magic would be a new spell, so it would be detailed in the published product.
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Blayde,
All that means is he has (frex) a dispel magic prepared with silent spell. Not that he has a silent dispel magic. Again, you can't find silent dispel magic on any caster's list. If the party gets the spell book, they're going to find just dispel magic. More proof? When a published adventure has a new spell the caster knows Matthew's Magnificant Troll Flaming for example, it will list the new spell in the appendix, adding it to the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Silent dispel magic would be a new spell, so it would be detailed in the published product.
Also, are the metamagic can be added to your spellbook crowd implying that I could learn the 4th level spell silent dispel magic as one of my two free spells at 7th level? If not, why not? You're saying it's a different spell, right?
How many published adventures have you seen where wizards are statted and their spell list there are metamagic-enhanced spells? Now how many times have you seen the spellbook write-up say this:
"All prepared spells plus all 0-level spells plus the following spells"
That line doesn't exclude the metamagic-enhanced prepared spells from this, it says all prepared spells. That would strongly seem to suggest that metamagic-enhanced spells can be scribed into a spellbook. In fact, it makes perfect sense that they would be able to. If you look at the wizard's spellbook as his book of stratagems, then why on earth would you have his metamagic formula be separate from from his arcane formula? If the wizard went through the trouble of learning the metamagic, to be able to add these enhancements to his spells, then why wouldn't he be able to scribe spells with the metamagic already added to them in his spellbook? Its a distinction that clearly defines why a wizard does not have to worry about increasing the casting times of his spells the way that a sorcerer does with hers. Because the metamagic is already added to the spell when he prepares it.
I'm not stating this as fact, not as I did with the metamagic and scroll situation before (that clearly was fact). The only ones that can clear this up really are the designers, but I don't really expect that to happen. The fact that we're even having this conversation is a good for all of us, but more importantly, its good for the game. Because it shows that no matter how bothered we get about certain aspects of it, we all still care about the game.
Some AP's will have the spells listed, along with the book. The spellbook never says empowered magic missile. It only says magic missile, and when you check the stat block you will see the empower spell metamagic feat. If you were correct then the spellbook would have metamagic tag applied to the spellbook version, and not just on the prepared list.
A wizard does have the extra time used for casting a metamagic spell has nothing to do with what you said. The reason is because only spontaneous magic users have to used up a full round action when adding metamagic. It is even in the rules
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.
As you can see the fact that they are not making an on the spot decision is the reason why.
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That is not that complicated.
Every wizard has Scribe Scroll.
Quicken Spell is pretty common.
It's even less complicated than you think.
If Aelrynth is right (*shudder*) then you don't need to find a Wizard with quicken spell.
You just need to find a wizard with the quickened magic missile spell. Shouldn't be any harder to find than any other 5th level spell.
Finding a Wizard with quickened spell would actually be quite difficult, since it would be an obsolete feat.
Everyone is only looking at this from a mechanical aspect. I hope your games aren't played in this manner. That would be doing a disservice to them that I can't begin to extrapolate on. So then, lets assume that you're not. When in the wilderness, you're not always going to be able to find 'that wizard with Quicken Spell.' And even if you do, there may not be a reason for him to teach you what he knows of casting spells in a fraction the normal time. But if something were to happen to this wizard and all you got out of it was his spellbook, it'd be pretty disappointing to find that he did not leave any record of this capability behind. To someone without access to the metamagic feat, it should look as though the 'formula of the spell has been altered it in such a way as to actually reduce its casting time.' The question then that should be asked at this point is 'how did he accomplish something like that?' Which should then lead to the study of this extraordinary fact by the wizard so that when the time comes for him to learn a feat he can add it to his arsenal. And even if the wizard discovering the spellbook already has the feat, he should be able to recognize those spells that are enhanced by them in the book and those that are not. This serves to validate the wizard's capabilities in a way that it wouldn't if you say that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed in the wizard's spellbook.
I wish I could put this in mathematical terms (this was never a strong area of study for me), because that's what I imagine a wizard's spellbook of incantations to be like. I'll do my best though. Arcane formulae should be very similar to mathematical formulae (this is why the wizards are the big brains). Things like combinatory logic, integrals, derivatives, vectors, and differentials should have direct arcane analogues for the wizard. Metamagic then are nothing more than enhancements that alter the nature of arcane equation to produce a desired effect.
If I've offended any mathematicians out there with my attempts to present my argument, then I apologize as I'm sure that any of you could do a far better job of explaining this than I could. And maybe I won't convince anyone with what I've said. That's fine, I can accept that. But what I want to know is this: where exactly does it say that the wizard can't scribe a metamagic-enhanced spell into his spellbook? I haven't seen anything that says what you're saying. With all of these arguments against it, that would imply that you've seen something somewhere that I haven't saying that this can't be done. Or are you using your own interpretation of the rules to come to this conclusion? If this is indeed the case, then I can accept that as well. See I'm open to the possibility that I may be wrong. Why then can't you be open to the possibility that I may be right?
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Can we get back to talking about how sorcerer is a good class as long as they have a wizard scribing them scrolls? This silly talk about scribing metamagic scrolls is giving me a headache.
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concerro,
That is true for the cleric and druid, who use a different form of spontaneous casting than the sorcerer and bard. But for the aforementioned arcane spontaneous casters, its a whole different matter, as you'll see if you look directly above the section that you quoted.
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
As you can see, the rules say that they actually do add metamagic on the spot.
But what I want to know is this: where exactly does it say that the wizard can't scribe a metamagic-enhanced spell into his spellbook? I haven't seen anything that says what you're saying.
The rules don't say you can. If you could do that nobody would buy the feats. Remember this, you can only use metamagic on magic items because the rules say you can. That allowance was never extended to spellbooks. If you could memorize an empowered magic missile, and a regular one then they would be two different spells, but they are not. If they were different spells then you could not counterspell a metamagic version of a spell with a regular version. A spell that uses a metamagic feat does not become a new spell. It is only an enhanced version of the non metamagic's version.
There would also have been at least on adventure written with the metamagic spell inscribed into the spellbook, but that has never happened. There would at least be a wizard with a metamagic spell prepared with a feat he does not have. As an example you might see a wizard with a quicken spell prepared, even though he does not have the quicken feat.
Partial statblock for a wizard from an AP with your suggestion.
Spells
1. random spells
2. random spells
3. haste, empowered fireball, (random other spells)Feats:Improved Initiative, Dodge, Combat Casting, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Spell Penetration.
You will never see a wizard with a metamagic'd spell without having a feat to support it as a prepared spell.
concerro,
That is true for the cleric and druid, who use a different form of spontaneous casting than the sorcerer and bard. But for the aforementioned arcane spontaneous casters, its a whole different matter, as you'll see if you look directly above the section that you quoted.
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
As you can see, the rules say that they actually do add metamagic on the spot.
I was saying the prepared casters can't decide on the spot. That is why they don't have to take a full round action. Spontaneous casters do so they have to take the full round action. That is what the bolded area was for.
What about the features that allow for metamagic economy by lowering the levels added to the finished spell.
Wouldn't this then lead to better versions of the spells at the same level after being scribed by someone with the(magical lineage) feat. In fact stacking over and over the one level bump metamagics until all possible ones are piled on top at no extra level cost.
Enlarged,Ectoplasmic,Toppling, bouncing, disruptive,elemental, flaring,focused,intensified,heightened,piercing,rime,silent, still magic missle
And it's still first level?
Really? I mean isn't that the illogical conclusion of this? Have to add cold and fire with the elemental to qualify for some of the other effects, but why would anyone ever use a regular magic missle again?
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If I've offended any mathematicians out there with my attempts to present my argument, then I apologize as I'm sure that any of you could do a far better job of explaining this than I could. And maybe I won't convince anyone with what I've said. That's fine, I can accept that. But what I want to know is this: where exactly does it say that the wizard can't scribe a metamagic-enhanced spell into his spellbook? I haven't seen anything that says what you're saying. With all of these arguments against it, that would imply that you've seen something somewhere that I haven't saying that this can't be done. Or are you using your own interpretation of the rules to come to this conclusion? If this is indeed the case, then I can accept that as well. See I'm open to the possibility that I may be wrong. Why then can't you be open to the possibility that I may be right?We aren't open to the possibility that you're right because every scrap of evidence points the other way. You can, of course, interpret or make up rules for whatever you want in home games, and that's part of Pathfinder's fun is that you can alter it to suit how you want it to work. If wizards in your home game can scribe metamagic spells into their book for your PC wizards to find, that's great. It adds a lot of variation to the game and especially in a high-power game, could be really interesting.
The rules as they are written do not support your interpretation. Your homebrew rules are one thing, the rules of the 'standard' game are something else entirely. We look at it mechanically because that's what the rules are: mechanical, mathematical rules for modeling the game. By those rules, you cannot scribe a metamagic spell into a spellbook. Even if you look at Rules as Intended, remembering that wording can be somewhat vague and devs do make silly mistakes that are obviously not what they meant, there has never been a wizard with a metamagic spell in his/her book in any published adventure, adventure path, or...
I've looked at the rules as written. And if you'd just said something along the lines of 'during preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal),' I would have been fine with that. That's written in the rules right above what I quoted to concerro. And I'm fine with that. I don't have a problem being wrong and I'm not afraid to admit when I am. I understand wording can be vague and that mistakes can be made by the designers and developers. But the fact that no one was even willing to consider the possibility that I could have been right really bothers me in a way that I can't explain. How is a person supposed to present anything in a post on these boards if everytime they put something up its always under presumption that they're wrong and everyone else is always right? Which is what it seems like from my perspective. That makes it very hard to prove your point. I was never in any debate club in school so the prospect of posting in any thread frightens me if that's how it truly is around here now. I always enter an argument thinking that I'm right but I do so knowing that at anytime I could also be proven wrong.
concerro,
I don't know how I missed that bold part in your text. Rushing about to make another post is probably the answer. My apologies. Prepared casters do not add metamagic on the spot as it is part of the preparation process. Which was the point I was trying to make as well. So I guess that means we're both right, even if the actual response was... wrong?
rat_bastard
I'm getting a headache as well. But I think we're done with this. At least I am.
What about the features that allow for metamagic economy by lowering the levels added to the finished spell.
Wouldn't this then lead to better versions of the spells at the same level after being scribed by someone with the(magical lineage) feat. In fact stacking over and over the one level bump metamagics until all possible ones are piled on top at no extra level cost.
Enlarged,Ectoplasmic,Toppling, bouncing, disruptive,elemental, flaring,focused,intensified,heightened,piercing,rime,silent, still magic missle
And it's still first level?
Really? I mean isn't that the illogical conclusion of this? Have to add cold and fire with the elemental to qualify for some of the other effects, but why would anyone ever use a regular magic missle again?
The feats that allows you to stack levels with a lower cost are still the same spell though. There are also not a lot of +1 metamagics out there so doing it at no cost with multiple metamagics is almost impossible.
That combination you listed would not leave it at first level by the way.
You might want to show some supporting text for that.
edit:I am assuming you were looking at this trait:
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
The trait does not allow you to treat every metamagic feat as though it is one level lower. It allows you to treat the entire spell as though it is one level lower.
You also can use
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
All that allows you to do is ignore one metamagic ability.
In short you get to ignore one, and then drop the highest slot used by one.
Example:magic missle(1st level spell), quicken(+4), empower(+2), maximize(+3)
This is now a 10th level slot, but you have Spell Perfection which drops it down to a 6th level slot because you can ignore quicken, but magic missile is the object of the magical lineage trait which now drops it down to a 5th level slot.
You also have to consider that both magical lineage, and spell perfection only work on one spell. You can't apply them to any spell you want to. You also have to be a 15 level caster.
We aren't open to the possibility that you're right because every scrap of evidence points the other way. You can, of course, interpret or make up rules for whatever you want in home games, and that's part of Pathfinder's fun is that you can alter it to suit how you want it to work. If wizards in your home game can scribe metamagic spells into their book for your PC wizards to find, that's great. It adds a lot of variation to the game and especially in a high-power game, could be really interesting.
The rules work a certain way, and it is not that most of us wont own up to it when we are wrong, but you have to present an argument that makes sense from the book, and balance wise. Adding metamagic'd spells as seperate spells opens up multiple issues.
If empowered spell X is different from regular spell X then the issue is that empowered spell X is not on the wizard's class list, and can't be added anyway.If empowered spell X is not different then you now need a rule saying you can add the same spell twice, among other things.
Magical Lineage : One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
If each time it's written in a book it counts as a new spell. Then it can be prepared each time with a different level one metamagic feat, which would not affect it's final adjusted level.
Then scribed on a scroll,
The transferred to a book and rememorized adding a new level one metamagic feat, which would not affect it's final adjusted level, because it's a new spell.
Rinse...repeat... Doesn't even have to be the same caster, as long as they have the magical lineage trait they can add their contribution and pass it on.
Then you have an uber firs level spell.
There are also not a lot of +1 metamagics out there so doing it at no cost with multiple metamagics is almost impossible.
All the ones I listed were +1 metas
Magical Lineage : One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
If each time it's written in a book it counts as a new spell. Then it can be prepared each time with a different level one metamagic feat, which would not affect it's final adjusted level.
Then scribed on a scroll,
The transferred to a book and rememorized adding a new level one metamagic feat, which would not affect it's final adjusted level, because it's a new spell.Rinse...repeat... Doesn't even have to be the same caster, as long as they have the magical lineage trait they can add their contribution and pass it on.
Then you have an uber firs level spell.
I edited my last post to answer that. You are still incorrect.
Before someone tries to argue that magical lineage applies to metamagic feats individually I will let you know that the "its" is referring to the spell.
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Metamagic feats don't have levels, but spell do. Metamagic feats are only able to adjust/modify levels, but don't have them in and of themselves.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can't use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.
I have to go now, but I will be back tomorrow to continue this.
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But what I want to know is this: where exactly does it say that the wizard can't scribe a metamagic-enhanced spell into his spellbook? I haven't seen anything that says what you're saying.The rules don't say you can. If you could do that nobody would buy the feats. Remember this, you can only use metamagic on magic items because the rules say you can. That allowance was never extended to spellbooks. If you could memorize an empowered magic missile, and a regular one then they would be two different spells, but they are not. If they were different spells then you could not counterspell a metamagic version of a spell with a regular version. A spell that uses a metamagic feat does not become a new spell. It is only an enhanced version of the non metamagic's version.
There would also have been at least on adventure written with the metamagic spell inscribed into the spellbook, but that has never happened. There would at least be a wizard with a metamagic spell prepared with a feat he does not have. As an example you might see a wizard with a quicken spell prepared, even though he does not have the quicken feat.
Partial statblock for a wizard from an AP with your suggestion.
Spells
1. random spells
2. random spells
3. haste, empowered fireball, (random other spells)Feats:Improved Initiative, Dodge, Combat Casting, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Spell Penetration.
You will never see a wizard with a metamagic'd spell without having a feat to support it as a prepared spell.
Okay I don't want to drag this on any further, but I feel the need to clarify something. If you go back and look at my post, you'll see where I talk about how the wizard without the proper metamagic feat would see the metamagic-enhanced spell if it was scribed in the spellbook. I then go on to say that once that wizard figured out how the meta-enhanced spell worked, then if they wanted to get that feat, then they could do so. I then said that if a wizard already possessed that feat, they would be able to recognize what was added and what was not. Never did I say that I would give them the feat for free. Which if that was what was being thought then I apologize for that misconception. I would never invalidate the feat in that way. I'm not giving it to them, I'm making the character work for it in game. I'm giving the player a creative opportunity to earn the feat that validates them in the chosen role of wizard and highlights their intelligence.
Edit: I removed the last sentence because it didn't need to be there.
Can we get back to talking about how sorcerer is a good class as long as they have a wizard scribing them scrolls?Or the corollary...Wizard is a good class as long as he has other Wizards scribing him scrolls (you know, so his spellbook isn't limited to two spells per class level)?
...
I am astonished that I never thought of that...
Can we get back to talking about how sorcerer is a good class as long as they have a wizard scribing them scrolls?Or the corollary...Wizard is a good class as long as he has other Wizards scribing him scrolls (you know, so his spellbook isn't limited to two spells per class level)?
Wizards also have research, captured spellbooks, spells carved into the walls of ruins and dungeons, sorcerers/maguses/fellow wizards and a Human favored class ability.
Sorcerers have what exactly?
Not sure what you mean by the you are incorrect comment.
My comments are on the ridiculousness of the argument about being able to forego metamagics by scribing scrolls of metamagic into spell books and have a new enhanced spell without paying the research costs.
So as a commentary on ridiculousness I already knew that it was not possible to scribe a spell with all those metamagics into a spellbook. Good job picking up on the sarcasm.
...I don't see your points as necessary, needing a rule saying you can add the same spell twice? Thats not even clear.
I've been playing since long before 3x came out. Never seen what some people are suggesting here. You can play it that way, but not in my game, because it renders metamagic unnecessary. Why do that if you can copy a scroll of it?
Rules are rules. RAW is the standard here. Houserules are just that.
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I never thought of that either...maybe I should work on getting a sweatshop of mages together that do nothing but produce scrolls for other wizards in one of my games. Perhaps have the player's wizard get captured to experience this for himself and then do something about it even as the other players figure it out and attempt to rescue him. That could be fun...except the player's wizard is a jerk of the first order and more than a few of the players wouldn't be sad to see him gone.
Sorcerers have what exactly?
Charm!
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Can we get back to talking about how sorcerer is a good class as long as they have a wizard scribing them scrolls?Or the corollary...Wizard is a good class as long as he has other Wizards scribing him scrolls (you know, so his spellbook isn't limited to two spells per class level)?Wizards also have research, captured spellbooks, spells carved into the walls of ruins and dungeons, sorcerers/maguses/fellow wizards and a Human favored class ability.
Sorcerers have what exactly?
Charisma...
Sorcerers have what exactly?
SORCERERS HAVE GREAT POWER!!!
SORCERER BLOOD IS FULL OF MYSTIC POTENTIAL!! THAT WHY SORCERER HAVE MORE SPELLS PER DAY!!! IF SORCERER NOT HAVE RIGHT SPELL IN REPERTOIRE SORCERER JUST BLAST PROBLEM WITH FIRE!! SORCERER BEST FACE CLASS, SORCERER HAS CHARISMA THAT IS BEST STAT IF PAIZO CHANGES RULES!!!
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Sorcerers have what exactly?SORCERERS HAVE GREAT POWER!!!
SORCERER BLOOD IS FULL OF MYSTIC POTENTIAL!! THAT WHY SORCERER HAVE MORE SPELLS PER DAY!!! IF SORCERER NOT HAVE RIGHT SPELL IN REPERTOIRE SORCERER JUST BLAST PROBLEM WITH FIRE!! SORCERER BEST FACE CLASS, SORCERER HAS CHARISMA THAT IS BEST STAT IF PAIZO CHANGES RULES!!!
That's....a compelling argument.
Sorcerers have what exactly?SORCERERS HAVE GREAT POWER!!!
SORCERER BLOOD IS FULL OF MYSTIC POTENTIAL!! THAT WHY SORCERER HAVE MORE SPELLS PER DAY!!! IF SORCERER NOT HAVE RIGHT SPELL IN REPERTOIRE SORCERER JUST BLAST PROBLEM WITH FIRE!! SORCERER BEST FACE CLASS, SORCERER HAS CHARISMA THAT IS BEST STAT IF PAIZO CHANGES RULES!!!
AM ALWAYS STUCK LISTENING TO TALKY SORCERER. AM HEARING SORCERER HAS SILENT SPELL FOR ALL MAGIC, BUT SORCERER AM TOO TALKY FOR SILENT.
THAT GENIUS THINKING.
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Why does that sorcerer look like it's frothing at the mouth?Sorcerers have what exactly?SORCERERS HAVE GREAT POWER!!!
SORCERER BLOOD IS FULL OF MYSTIC POTENTIAL!! THAT WHY SORCERER HAVE MORE SPELLS PER DAY!!! IF SORCERER NOT HAVE RIGHT SPELL IN REPERTOIRE SORCERER JUST BLAST PROBLEM WITH FIRE!! SORCERER BEST FACE CLASS, SORCERER HAS CHARISMA THAT IS BEST STAT IF PAIZO CHANGES RULES!!!
That's....a compelling argument.
That's what makes it such a compelling argument.
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Wizards also have research, captured spellbooks, spells carved into the walls of ruins and dungeons, sorcerers/maguses/fellow wizards and a Human favored class ability.
Sorcerers have what exactly?
Well...they do have the ability to not rely on their own spellbooks, or research, or captured spellbooks, or spells carved into the wall of ruins and dungeons (really?!?).
They also have a Human favored class ability. And it rocks.
They also have a Human favored class ability. And it rocks.
Relying on a single race to justify a class is bad. If a class is not generally good without taking one specific racial option, it's not a good class.
They also have a Human favored class ability. And it rocks.Relying on a single race to justify a class is bad. If a class is not generally good without taking one specific racial option, it's not a good class.
AM WHY BARBARIAN AM BEST CLASS. AM WORK WITH THREE RACIAL OPTIONS.
Only three? :(
(personally, I like a mix of skills and hp for barbarians more than the save bonus)
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They also have a Human favored class ability. And it rocks.
Relying on a single race to justify a class is bad. If a class is not generally good without taking one specific racial option, it's not a good class.
I was responding to (and quoting) a post that specifically mentioned Human favored class ability as an advantage to the Wizard class.
In that context, it seems reasonable to me to bring up a Sorcerer's Human favored class ability. No?
Fair enough.
Not sure what you mean by the you are incorrect comment.
My comments are on the ridiculousness of the argument about being able to forego metamagics by scribing scrolls of metamagic into spell books and have a new enhanced spell without paying the research costs.
So as a commentary on ridiculousness I already knew that it was not possible to scribe a spell with all those metamagics into a spellbook. Good job picking up on the sarcasm....I don't see your points as necessary, needing a rule saying you can add the same spell twice? Thats not even clear.
Your argument on the scribing cost doesn't work.
Feats that modify spells and metamagic are never applied to costs when used on items or scribed spells. Just because you make a scroll and have Greater Spell Penetration, doesn't help the scroll. Making a wand of empowered Magic Missile with magical lineage is still a level 3 spells...feats and traits that modify the potency of metamagic or the integral nature of a spell only apply to spells being cast, not to magic items. (Which is why Arcane Thesis didn't let you design an uber magic missile in 3.5).
In short, you can't scribe a meta-efficient spell any more then your meta would apply to a scroll you are casting from, a meta'd wand (Hey, my empowered magic missile staff only uses 1 charge when I use it, instead of 2!!), or if you can include Greater Spell Focus in the item (there's several examples where if you want to raise the DC, you must HEIGHTEN the spell).
Metamagicked spells already exist in the game. Delayed Blast Fireball is effectively a level 4 fireball with the Delay Feat (+3), but written as a pure level 7 spell so it has a higher damage cap. Chain Lightning does the exact same thing for Lightning Bolt (Chain Spell is +3). They are simple carryovers from 3.5.
A level 5 QUickened Magic Missile that IS a 5th level spell (as opposed to IN the 5th level SLOT) would indeed have level 5 damage caps. Hardly a problem, you'd need to be 30th level to max it out, since it accrues slowly, and at level 9 when you get it, it's no better then Magic Missile, except it's a swift action. Sure, at level 20 you'd have ten missiles...wahoo? Still less damage then a Cone of Cold.
The Scribing argument on caster level is the same thing. The price of a spell is fixed when you scribe it by SPELL LEVEL...not caster level. If caster level were reflected in the cost of the spellscribing, then indeed you could scribe down a level 20 Magic Missile spell and memorize it. Happily, there is NO provision for such things when scribing, as there is with scrolls. So, another bad example and a non-argument. You can no more spellscribe a caster level then you can Spell Penetration, which ALSO has no reflection in gold cost or spell level.
Note that without a Meta-feat you are limited in applying feats to spells you've acquired, if indeed you can acquire and scribe meta'd spells. With the feat, you can Quicken any spell in your entire book, potentially saving you hundreds of thousands of gp, unless you want a really limited spell selection of Quickened spells. If you're good with just a few key spells being Quick, then that's a choice you make.
Also note that this is option is MUCH less powerful then simply being able to buy a Quicken Rod and apply it to any desired spell on the fly 3 t/day. There's a ton of builds that never have metamagic, they just buy Rods. Gold subs for feats...this is little more then an extension of the same rule.
It does give a wizard more options and choices, but no more then a metamagic Rod.
==Aelryinth
as a followup, note that since you can't apply trans-meta feats/traits to items, you could never transcribe a magical lineage empowered magic missile at level 2. Regardless of who scribes it, it's coming from the scroll, where such things do not apply, and it will always be a level 3 spell if you write it out.
If you have the feat, trait, and prepare a base magic missile, you'd get the -1 bonus. But the Empowered Magic Missile spellscribed would always be a base level 3 spell, and not even Spell Perfection would change that, anymore then it could change the level of any other non-Meta'd spell.
Which would be another reason to have the feat, no?
==Aelryinth
as a followup, note that since you can't apply trans-meta feats/traits to items, you could never transcribe a magical lineage empowered magic missile at level 2. Regardless of who scribes it, it's coming from the scroll, where such things do not apply, and it will always be a level 3 spell if you write it out.
==Aelryinth
You are wrong.
It is in fact still a first level spell."if you write it out"You may now have the last word. I have no more words to WASTE on this argument.