as a followup, note that since you can't apply trans-meta feats/traits to items, you could never transcribe a magical lineage empowered magic missile at level 2. Regardless of who scribes it, it's coming from the scroll, where such things do not apply, and it will always be a level 3 spell if you write it out.
==Aelryinth
You are wrong.
It is in fact still a first level spell."if you write it out"
Oh, my such absolutes without a logical defense. Whatever shall I do.
Oh, I know. Disregard. Next!
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
AM KNOWING ALL LOGIC AND ALL FACTS WITH GENIUS THINKING.
AM KNOWING THERE NO ARGUMENT, NO LOGIC HERE, ONLY THE TALKY TALKY SHOUTING.
AM HAVING BEST SPELLBOOK WITH ALL SPELLS.
AM HAVING CLASHING ROCKS. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.
You know, if you'd read my posts, I'm not the one arbitrarily dismissing the opinions of others...I'm looking for a rational argument why such things would NOT work this way.
"You're wrong, and we (meaning 3-4 people jumping on one another) ALL think so" doesn't quite cut it, especially when they keep misinterpreting things.
So, if all they can think of is "you're wrong", then obviously they've lost their argument...and they are rude, which I can return to them in equal measure.
Their 'empowered magic missile is not a spell' is inherently contradictory, and doesn't work. If it did, you couldn't use a meta'd scroll or magic item without UMD.
The 'when you copy a spell to your spellbook, the metas go away' has absolute no basis in any rule anywhere, and was made up on the spot to satisfy their beliefs.
Now, if Paizo comes down and ADDS A RULE that says "When you scribe a scroll of a Meta'd spell, it loses the metamagic and is copied as the base spell", that means I was right, but Paizo doesn't want it to work that way, and changed/updated the rule.
As it is, there is no rule in force that says what I described is not entirely possible and internally consistent and logical.
Nor is it unbalanced. It's just another nice thing for a wizard to have, along the other lines of his subbing gold for feats shtick.
Now if you want to Rule 0 it and say it doesn't work, that's absolutely fine with me. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
AM KNOWING ALL LOGIC AND ALL FACTS WITH GENIUS THINKING.
AM KNOWING THERE NO ARGUMENT, NO LOGIC HERE, ONLY THE TALKY TALKY SHOUTING.
AM HAVING BEST SPELLBOOK WITH ALL SPELLS.
AM HAVING CLASHING ROCKS. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.
UR SPELLBOOK COULD ACCIDENTALLY BE TURNED INTO THE LIBRARY WITH YOUR OTHER BOOKS AND THEN WHAT WOULD YOU DO!! YOU NEED A MINI SPELLBOOK INSIDE YOUR SKULL LIKE AM SORCERER!! ITS JUST LIKE A WIZARDS SPELLBOOK BUT ITS SMALLER AND INSIDE MY HEAD!! I HAVE ONE RACE THAT WORKS FOR MY CLASS AND YOU ONLY HAVE FOUR OR FIVE!! AM SORCERER IS STRONG IN THE ATTRIBUTE THAT ALL OTHER CLASSES DUMP, THIS SHOULD MATTER MORE THAN IT DOES.
UR SPELLBOOK COULD ACCIDENTALLY BE TURNED INTO THE LIBRARY WITH YOUR OTHER BOOKS AND THEN WHAT WOULD YOU DO!! YOU NEED A MINI SPELLBOOK INSIDE YOUR SKULL LIKE AM SORCERER!! ITS JUST LIKE A WIZARDS SPELLBOOK BUT ITS SMALLER AND INSIDE MY HEAD!! I HAVE ONE RACE THAT WORKS FOR MY CLASS AND YOU ONLY HAVE FOUR OR FIVE!! AM SORCERER IS STRONG IN THE ATTRIBUTE THAT ALL OTHER CLASSES DUMP, THIS SHOULD MATTER MORE THAN IT DOES.AM KNOWING ALL LOGIC AND ALL FACTS WITH GENIUS THINKING.
AM KNOWING THERE NO ARGUMENT, NO LOGIC HERE, ONLY THE TALKY TALKY SHOUTING.
AM HAVING BEST SPELLBOOK WITH ALL SPELLS.
AM HAVING CLASHING ROCKS. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.
AM NEVER MISTAKING SPELLBOOK FOR LIBRARY BOOK WITH GENIUS THINKING. AM REMEMBERING SPELL MASTERY IN GENIUS HEAD ALL THE TIME AND SPELL SPECIALIZATION FOR OTHER BIG SPELL. AM NEEDING GENIUS THINKING FOR BRAIN BIG ENOUGH TO HOLD ALL SPELLS.
|
If I use Aelyrinth's rules, all I have to do is find a wizard with Quicken Spell and magic missile and copy it into my spellbook.No. Even if you use Aelyrunth's rules it is more complicated than that.
You need to find a spellcaster with magic missile, quicken spell and scribe scroll.
Actually, that's not quite true. The spellcaster wouldn't need Quicken Spell. He would simply have to have previously encountered Quickened magic missile as a spell on a scroll, and copied it into his spell book.
Per Aelryinth's ruling, that caster could then scribe a quickened magic missile scroll for you.
You have missed part of the post:
If you want to skip the scroll part, the spellcaster need to be from a class that use spellbooks, he need to have, at some time, got a copy of the spell with the appropriate metamagic and to have copied it in his spellbook.
in the example of the Quickened MM he will, as a minimum, ask for the money he would ask for copying a level 5 spell. Even more if possible.
|
|
Then if the fact that it blatantly states in the Core Rulebook ....The idea that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed onto a scroll should be dropped, because it has been proven that they can.
Affirming that something has been proven is very far away for proving that thing.
You can feel that you have proven that point, but most of us disagree with you.
As you are essentially claiming DM fiat to prove your point I think there is little reason to continue this discussion.
And that should teach me to proof read what I cite.
I had fixated on your support to the idea that it is possible to copy the matamagiched spell into a spellbook and read your post a The idea that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed onto a speelbook should be dropped, because it has been proven that they can. instead of what you wrote , i.e, onto a scroll.
My apologies.
|
|
That is not that complicated.
Every wizard has Scribe Scroll.
Quicken Spell is pretty common.
It's even less complicated than you think.
If Aelrynth is right (*shudder*) then you don't need to find a Wizard with quicken spell.
You just need to find a wizard with the quickened magic missile spell. Shouldn't be any harder to find than any other 5th level spell.
Finding a Wizard with quickened spell would actually be quite difficult, since it would be an obsolete feat.
Everyone is only looking at this from a mechanical aspect. I hope your games aren't played in this manner. That would be doing a disservice to them that I can't begin to extrapolate on. So then, lets assume that you're not. When in the wilderness, you're not always going to be able to find 'that wizard with Quicken Spell.' And even if you do, there may not be a reason for him to teach you what he knows of casting spells in a fraction the normal time. But if something were to happen to this wizard and all you got out of it was his spellbook, it'd be pretty disappointing to find that he did not leave any record of this capability behind. To someone without access to the metamagic feat, it should look as though the 'formula of the spell has been altered it in such a way as to actually reduce its casting time.' The question then that should be asked at this point is 'how did he accomplish something like that?' Which should then lead to the study of this extraordinary fact by the wizard so that when the time comes for him to learn a feat he can add it to his arsenal. And even if the wizard discovering the spellbook already has the feat, he should be able to recognize those spells that are enhanced by them in the book and those that are not. This serves to validate the wizard's capabilities in a way that it wouldn't if you say that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed in the wizard's spellbook.
I wish I could put this in mathematical terms (this was never a...
The problem in your approach [if I am getting it right, this time] is that your wizard is doing something like this:
[spell A + metamagic modifier Q]= new spell AQ in my spellbook
and the guy finding the spellbooks will have to decipher it to learn spell A and metamagic modifier Q
The original wizard would have to record all the possible permutations of all his spells and all his metamagic feats to make full use of his abilities, making his spellbook a bloated item with an impressive number of partially overlapping spells as soon as he has a couple of metamagic feats.
You "mathematical" approach would work better if the spellbook was something like:
spell list:
spell A, B, C, ....
Metamgic instructions for feat Q, R, S, ....
Learning the metamagic feats entail learning how to do A+Q or A+S or C+R+S as needed while memorizing the spells.
The guy finding the spellbook woudl find the spells in one section, the metamagic modifiers in another.
Your approach is similar to recording the multiplication tables for the numbers from 1 to 1,000, mine is similar to learning how to do multiplications.
I've yet to be wrong about anything. AM GENIUS THINKING TALKY MAN. HEED WISE WORDS!
Good job picking up on the sarcasm.
This is the internet. Sarcasm is not clear. You may say something to be joking around because you consider it to be a silly notion, but somewhere out there someone will say it and mean it. If you are joking, being sarcastic, and so use an emoticon, otherwise don't be surprised if you are taken seriously.
I have seen post where people wanted to use 1st level slots for 9th level spells so why should I have not taken you seriously?
PS:Don't be jerk is a forum rule around here.
Good job picking up on the sarcasm.
This is the internet. Sarcasm is not clear. You may say something to be joking around because you consider it to be a silly notion, but somewhere out there someone will say it and mean it. If you are joking, being sarcastic, and so use an emoticon, otherwise don't be surprised if you are taken seriously.
I have seen post where people wanted to use 1st level slots for 9th level spells so why should I have not taken you seriously?
PS:Don't be jerk is a forum rule around here.
I'll try to use emoticons in the future more. And the forum rules are why I ducked out in the first place. Multiple variations of arguments I didn't have the energy or desire to properly differentiate and address. Some other posts made it quickly clear that I had been sucked into what I considered a silly trolling argument, and I apologize to you if that bled through on any posts but please rest assured no jerkery perceived or otherwise was Intentionally directed at you.
-S
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Now, if Paizo comes down and ADDS A RULE that says "When you scribe a scroll of a Meta'd spell, it loses the metamagic and is copied as the base spell", that means I was right, but Paizo doesn't want it to work that way, and changed/updated the rule.Translation: Even if he's wrong, he's right.
"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."
Even when he's proved wrong, over and over again, he still fights.
Good job picking up on the sarcasm.
This is the internet. Sarcasm is not clear. You may say something to be joking around because you consider it to be a silly notion, but somewhere out there someone will say it and mean it. If you are joking, being sarcastic, and so use an emoticon, otherwise don't be surprised if you are taken seriously.
I have seen post where people wanted to use 1st level slots for 9th level spells so why should I have not taken you seriously?
PS:Don't be jerk is a forum rule around here.
I'll try to use emoticons in the future more. And the forum rules are why I ducked out in the first place. Multiple variations of arguments I didn't have the energy or desire to properly differentiate and address. Some other posts made it quickly clear that I had been sucked into what I considered a silly trolling argument, and I apologize to you if that bled through on any posts but please rest assured no jerkery perceived or otherwise was Intentionally directed at you.
-S
Fair enough. :)
I failed my will save also, so we both got suckered in on that one.
Sorcerers have what exactly?Lillith's thrall?
:-)
As a frequent sorcerer player, I wish we didn't. D:
A sorcerer optimized for spell selection has more spells than a wizard who never studies or encounters other spellbooks? Thats really right up there with a Sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard if he takes leadership so he can have a wizard cohort handing him scrolls.You act like there's a problem with taking Leadership.
Let me ask you, does the fact that Nick Fury has the power and resources of SHIELD at his disposal make him weak? Does the fact that he uses those powers and resources make him weak?
You insinuate that it does, but such insinuation makes no sense.
Apparently, in your opinion, certain resources shouldn't be counted as a factor in how powerful a character is whereas other resources should be counted, but which resources fall on which side seems arbitrary.
The person who first mentioned the leadership mentioned it like taking leadership was a unique strength of the sorcerer class. Its kind of like people mentioning that humans can use favored class to get extra spells known as a unique strength of the class when bards, Inquisitors, wizards and alchemists get the exact same power.
|
|
If the party encounters the bad guys, and then disengages, the Wizard has the ability to come back with just the right spells to combat the baddies (assuming he saw them in action enough to infer their abilities and/or made the appropriate Knowledge checks).
If the party engages the enemy and stays to fight, the Sorcerer has an advantage due to his spontaneous casting. He may know just about as many spells as the Wizard has prepared, but he can cast the ones he needs to over and over again.
I think a lot depends on the play style of your gaming group. If you're with a group of gamers who are really hesitant to back down from a fight, the Sorcerer actually winds up better prepared for the fight.
If the party encounters the bad guys, and then disengages, the Wizard has the ability to come back with just the right spells to combat the baddies (assuming he saw them in action enough to infer their abilities and/or made the appropriate Knowledge checks).
If the party engages the enemy and stays to fight, the Sorcerer has an advantage due to his spontaneous casting. He may know just about as many spells as the Wizard has prepared, but he can cast the ones he needs to over and over again.
I think a lot depends on the play style of your gaming group. If you're with a group of gamers who are really hesitant to back down from a fight, the Sorcerer actually winds up better prepared for the fight.
You're ignoring the "If he has the appropriate spells in his spellbook", which is hardly guaranteed. If you want massive spell selection preparation, you generally turn to the druid or cleric.
==Aelryinth
Now, if Paizo comes down and ADDS A RULE that says "When you scribe a scroll of a Meta'd spell, it loses the metamagic and is copied as the base spell", that means I was right, but Paizo doesn't want it to work that way, and changed/updated the rule.Translation: Even if he's wrong, he's right."Truly you have a dizzying intellect."
Even when he's proved wrong, over and over again, he still fights.
Ah, insults disguised as poor logic. It never ends.
Kindly note: There is no such rule now.
Secondly, they have full right to add such an explicit rule.
Thirdly, if they do, then under the current rules, it means you can certainly do so, otherwise they wouldn't have to explicitly add the rule. They ADDED A RULE THAT IS NOT THERE.
Ergo, I was right.
If it IS there, do point it out. Since it isn't, you can keep up the snarkiness that comes with losing your point instead.
Ta.
===Aelryinth
...
That is not that complicated.
Every wizard has Scribe Scroll.
Quicken Spell is pretty common.
It's even less complicated than you think.
If Aelrynth is right (*shudder*) then you don't need to find a Wizard with quicken spell.
You just need to find a wizard with the quickened magic missile spell. Shouldn't be any harder to find than any other 5th level spell.
Finding a Wizard with quickened spell would actually be quite difficult, since it would be an obsolete feat.
Everyone is only looking at this from a mechanical aspect. I hope your games aren't played in this manner. That would be doing a disservice to them that I can't begin to extrapolate on. So then, lets assume that you're not. When in the wilderness, you're not always going to be able to find 'that wizard with Quicken Spell.' And even if you do, there may not be a reason for him to teach you what he knows of casting spells in a fraction the normal time. But if something were to happen to this wizard and all you got out of it was his spellbook, it'd be pretty disappointing to find that he did not leave any record of this capability behind. To someone without access to the metamagic feat, it should look as though the 'formula of the spell has been altered it in such a way as to actually reduce its casting time.' The question then that should be asked at this point is 'how did he accomplish something like that?' Which should then lead to the study of this extraordinary fact by the wizard so that when the time comes for him to learn a feat he can add it to his arsenal. And even if the wizard discovering the spellbook already has the feat, he should be able to recognize those spells that are enhanced by them in the book and those that are not. This serves to validate the wizard's capabilities in a way that it wouldn't if you say that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed in the wizard's spellbook.
I wish I could put this in mathematical
This is not exactly true.
The wizard with Quicken spell can record and sell any spell he has with the Quicken feat...but he does not have to. He'd have to pay scribing costs for each one, and it would all count against WBL. His spellbook bloat would be enormous.If he just has the feat, he NEVER has to scribe a Quickened spell. The only time he'd need it would be for a scroll or for someone else. That saves him a lot of time and money. He can add Quicken to any spell when memorizing it.
If he does NOT have Quicken, he's going to have to pick and choose what Quickened spells he wants, because costs are going to add up VERY quickly, the minimum spell being 5th level.
I do like your example. Having the feat is like having the multiplier integers...not is like having to look at the solutions at the end of the tables. The former is MUCH faster to work with.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Now, if Paizo comes down and ADDS A RULE that says "When you scribe a scroll of a Meta'd spell, it loses the metamagic and is copied as the base spell", that means I was right, but Paizo doesn't want it to work that way, and changed/updated the rule.
Translation: Even if he's wrong, he's right.
"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."
Even when he's proved wrong, over and over again, he still fights.
Kindly note: There is no such rule now.
Secondly, they have full right to add such an explicit rule.
Thirdly, if they do, then under the current rules, it means you can certainly do so, otherwise they wouldn't have to explicitly add the rule. They ADDED A RULE THAT IS NOT THERE.
Ergo, I was right.
Wizards can cast every spell in their spellbook spontaneously, if they eat their spellbook. I defy anyone to find a rule anywhere to the contrary.
Kindly note: There is no such rule now.
Secondly, they have full right to add such an explicit rule.
Thirdly, if they do, then under the current rules, it means you can certainly do so, otherwise they wouldn't have to explicitly add the rule. They ADDED A RULE THAT IS NOT THERE.
Ergo, I was right.
Wow, it's really quite easy to be Aelryinth!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
.
Ah, insults disguised as poor logic. It never ends.
===Aelryinth
It would if you'd stop insulting. Instead, you won't answer that by your own (alleged) logic You still can't answer this argument.
If a scroll with a silenced dispel magic is a new spell (rather than the dispel magic modified by the silent spell feat, then the wizard can't use the scroll, as it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Since it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, he can't add it to his spell book.
This is your own logic. Unfortunately every time you're confronted with this fact, you pretend to ignore it as it shows the cosmic levels of wrong you have achieved and desperately cling to.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Wizards can cast every spell in their spellbook spontaneously, if they eat their spellbook. I defy anyone to find a rule anywhere to the contrary.Kindly note: There is no such rule now.
Secondly, they have full right to add such an explicit rule.
Thirdly, if they do, then under the current rules, it means you can certainly do so, otherwise they wouldn't have to explicitly add the rule. They ADDED A RULE THAT IS NOT THERE.
Ergo, I was right.Wow, it's really quite easy to be Aelryinth!
Thank you, now my coworkers are wondering at what I'm chucking.
Meh. I'll bite on this issue.
No, sadly, you cannot scribe a metamagic version of a spell into your spellbook in order to cheat it on there without getting the feat.
What supposedly arbitrary reasons do I have to read this into the rules? I'm glad you didn't ask! I'll explain it anyways. Because I can.
-Please note the rules associated with Metamagic Feats. They do not take up any room in a spellbook. It is something a caster simply knows how to do and apply to their spells the moment they take the feat. To say otherwise would be to claim that feats are somehow 'written down', and can be lost by simply sundering the wizard's spellbook. (Which I am glad to do, but generally I prefer sundering the wizard.) You CAN do this in your game, but that is not RAW and I think we're discussing RAW here. (If we aren't, please disregard this entire post... but I'm pretty sure on this one.)
-Regarding creating items WITH the metamagic feat slot? That's not a problem, RAW includes that you can do this. It also states that people without the feat can cast the spell without having the metamagic feat, as well.
-Finally, as far as scribing it into the spellbook, I point you here. Specifically, I refer to this point:
If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
Please note that the verbiage above is very specific, and states that the wizard understands 'the spell' and can copy it into his spellbook. To argue otherwise is to say that a metamagic feat is itself a spell, when it is not. You cannot cast 'Quicken Spell.' It is merely a component piece of a spell. Note that, as I said before, metamagic spells do not take up any room in a spellbook. Since this is the case, and since the rules for adding a spell are clear in saying 'the spell' is learned, we must conclude that the idea of using a scroll with a metamagic feat to cheese the system is, sadly, not an actual option.
|
Please note that the verbiage above is very specific, and states that the wizard understands 'the spell' and can copy it into his spellbook. To argue otherwise is to say that a metamagic feat is itself a spell, when it is not. You cannot cast 'Quicken Spell.' It is merely a component piece of a spell. Note that, as I said before, metamagic spells do not take up any room in a spellbook. Since this is the case, and since the rules for adding a spell are clear in saying 'the spell' is learned, we must conclude that the idea of using a scroll with a metamagic feat to cheese the system is, sadly, not an actual option.
I understand what you're saying here. I can't really speak for Aelryinth, only myself. My idea of doing it the way I do is not meant to 'cheese the system,' but rather validate it by enabling the wizard to learn the process in a manner that showcases his intelligence so that the player could attain the feat when the time came to level up his character and he had a feat slot available (the result of his work in researching the feat). That's how I handle it in my games. I agree that the rules should not be abused to allow the player to gain an advantage in the manner that you (and everyone else) are talking about. I'll probably continue to do it in this manner, but I also know that this isn't necessarily the right way either. More than likely it'll be more of compromise based on what I've learned here. What I'll say, for example, is that the extraneous portion of the spell inscribed on the scroll won't translate to the pages of the spellbook, but you can't seem to get it out of your head either. In the case of Quicken Spell, it would probably be along the lines that the arcane formula is still recognizable as a particular spell, but now capable of being cast faster than it otherwise would due to a reduction of the formula itself still leaves the spell effect stable enough to be cast properly. Now, if at that point, the player expresses interest in trying to unravel the mystery put before him, it becomes the first step on the road to research. If not, then we move on. But regardless of how I present the fluff, this won't ever result in the wizard immediately gaining a feat for free when he wouldn't otherwise be able to in my games. My respect for the mechanics is too great for that.
I think we're on the same page, Blayde. What I'm saying is that you can totally use a scroll with a metamagic feat on it that you don't have, but if you scribe it into your spellbook, you just get the standard spell and not the metamagic feat'd spell.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
My idea of doing it the way I do is not meant to 'cheese the system,' but rather validate it by enabling the wizard to learn the process in a manner that showcases his intelligence so that the player could attain the feat when the time came to level up his character and he had a feat slot available (the result of his work in researching the feat). That's how I handle it in my games.
Just wanted to address that.
it's an interesting point you make about the 'work to research the feat'. I assume that such things happen 'off panel' espeically for Intelligence and Wisdom based casters, as their scores are much higher (on average) than the player's.
To me that's part of the level delay reason for feats. Player goes "Well I've been dealing with those pesky silence spells the DM loves, so I'll take silent spell when it becomes available." Charater goes "Another silence spell? Damnit, I need to research a way to prepare and cast spells without talking then." So while the player is basically motivated by past events, the character, in the game reality, has been using that problem solving/insight (intelligence/wisdom) to address future problems.*
For spontaneous casters, I look at their new spells on level up being the result of experimentation off panel. So during down time, Sammy Sorcerer knows that 'grabbing magic by the short and curlies and twisting to the right.' produces scortching ray. In off panel time, he's been experimenting with twisting a different direction. He hits 6th level and voila, he's finally understood that twisting it slightly differently, and harder, produces fireball. Why doesn't he try to throw that fireball he's been testing in combat? Well because he knows what works, and in a pressure situation, you go with what you know.
While I hate to talk about myself, this is part of the 'fluff' behind my Spell Duplication feat mechanic.
*
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'm just surprised that this particular topic is still going on. And it shows no signs of dying down anytime either.
I feel some perverse pride at turning it into a metamagic thread. :-)
Seriously, there are some good points that are worth replying to. Since I don't have a life,* I can take the time to reply.
*
Alright, that makes sense. Sorcerers make better use of Leadership than wizards. I'm not sure that's a compelling reason to play one, but it's unquestionably true and a mark in favor of the sorcerer.Which is all I said. I never said that only Sorcerers can take Leadership. I don't know where rat bastard got the idea that I did.
I never said you did.
This is the post I was talking about. There you have it, a poster claiming that sorcerers are more powerful than wizards because they can have a wizard handing them scrolls despite the fact that any class can do that. Its not all about you LT.
I think we're on the same page, Blayde. What I'm saying is that you can totally use a scroll with a metamagic feat on it that you don't have, but if you scribe it into your spellbook, you just get the standard spell and not the metamagic feat'd spell.
This is how I have always interpreted it for the record. A scroll is a magic item that allows you a single use of another's casting of the spell. Your spell book is the place you keep the formulas needed to cast the spell yourself. So their meta feat would be applied to their casting per the scribe scroll feat, but those meta feats do not pass on to you since copying the spell only translates the formula to your book...it does not pass on any abilities of the fella who cast it in the first place.
I never said you did.This is the post I was talking about. There you have it, a poster claiming that sorcerers are more powerful than wizards because they can have a wizard handing them scrolls despite the fact that any class can do that. Its not all about you LT.
Actually, not every class can do it. You need a class that either has UMD or has the relevant scroll in their spell list.
A Sorcerer can much more easily cast any spell (cleric, druid, etc.) off of a scroll than a wizard can.
Even if we're only talking about wizard scrolls, the average cohort level for a sorcerer is higher than that of a wizard. That means the sorcerer's average cohort can make higher level scrolls.Though, I have to agree that, as long as we're talking only about wizard scrolls, I'd give the advantage to the wizard for obvious reasons.
It is so many degrees of not hard to get a cohort one level behind you without a positive charisma bonus. The only difference is a sorcerer can treat his cohort as an expendable goon a little bit more.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
The cohort thing gave me another wonder...
Can a wizard transcribe a spell he can't cast yet?
Here's my thought.
"Ok, at 7th level I'll take leadership and a wizard cohort."
*Poof* "How may I serve you, my master."
"Well for start, I'd like a look at your spellbook, you have 2nd and third level spells I don't."
"I'm not a zombie, what do I get out of it, my master?"
"Well I'll let you transcribe all my spells you don't have, and as a bonus you can transscribe my 4th level spells, so you'll have them already when you level up?"
"Sounds like a deal, my master."
Bonus for the PC sorcerer, if his book gets indisposed, he still has all his spells in his cohort's book that he can then translate back into his new spellbook.
Assuming a 10 Cha
Well, lets its fairly easy to get the +1 trait bonus if you knew from level one you where going to take leadership.
A Rod of Splendor is great for leadership and it costs only 25,000 gp, first off just having it clipped to your belt gives you a +4 charisma but it also has the ability to summon a massive pavilion that feeds 100 people an incredibly sumptuous meal once a week. using this power to feed your followers once a week costs you nothing and goes a long way towards establishing your reputation for fairness and generosity, an additional +1 bonus.
The rod of splendor along with not being a jerk alone can give you a leadership score of 10 at 7th level, which nets you a 6th level Cohort.
But lets say you are 9th level, what do you do? Well a 9th level wizard can learn Fabricate, Wall of Stone and Move Earth. These three spells alone without any other aid allow you to make a "stronghold, base of operations, guildhouse, etc." for free for an additional +2. A few beneficial acts for your followers and you could easily net a bonus of +5-10 depending on your skill at establishing great renown or a reputation for special powers and how much you move around.
By the way, once you have gotten your cohort your leadership score no longer determines his level, it is entirely dependent their experience and your level (it is capped at one level behind you), so you can get him killed and have them killed and restored and they have the same level they had before.