Bad Touch Cleric, Witch, Wizard, Arcanist... Who does it best?
Right now I'm stuck between BTCleric and Witch, but I can be sold on another option.
Thanks :)
The Witch if you're OK with randomly being entirely useless sometimes. Bad Touch Cleric if you like having fun. Wizard if you just want to be as mechanically effective as possible.
Can you elaborate on Witch and Cleric? lol
Can you elaborate on Witch and Cleric? lol
The Witch is relying mostly on spells/hexes that give saves, so unlike the other dedicated debuffers the way the dice falls can screw you over.
The Cleric's domain powers generally do not allow a save, and also have a tendency to be freaking hilarious. Dat Protean subdomain.
Clerics who debuff using negative variant channelling are very effective when you're up close and personal, and still good on an ordinary 5'/inch battlemap. At longer ranges a witch or wizard's hexes/spells work better.
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I play a witch in PFS and I can confirm the "sometimes useless" stuff. The problem is Hexes. A lot of your best hexes are debuffs that count as mind-effecting, meaning that some types of creatures are outright immune to your Slumbers and your Evil Eyes. That said, the primary focus of the Witch spell list is utility and debuffing, so you'll have a lot to work with.
I've had some fun debuffing on a Summoner, since their spell list has enough control to get by. Add in an Eidolon focused on combat maneuvers and you've got a great setup to own the field.
I hear good things about Bad Touch Clerics, but I've never played a divine caster past level 1 so it's hard to say.
If you're willing to commit the feats to it, a halfling jinx witch can be a very scary debuffer
What is this?
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Also, what would be particularly good Domains if going the Bad Touch route?
(Chaos seems like fun if the spell list wasn't bleh. Darkness looks solid, and Undead seems to make for good Neg. Channeling and access to appropriate-level Enervation - Thoughts?)
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Halfling Jinx Halflings with this racial trait gain the ability to curse another creature with bad luck at will as a standard action. This curse has a range of 30 feet, and you must be able to see the target and have line of effect to it. The target gets a Will saving throw to resist this jinx (DC = 10 + 1/2 your level + your Charisma modifier). If your target makes this saving throw, it is immune to your jinx ability for 24 hours. A jinxed creature takes a –1 penalty on all saving throws. This jinx lasts for 24 hours or until you attempt to use your jinx again. A jinx is a supernatural ability, is not mind-affecting, does not allow spell resistance, and can affect any kind of creature not immune to luck effects. This replaces halfling luck.
It's a halfling alternate racial trait that allows them to jinx an opponent within 30 feet but there are a series of feats that allow you to tag this on to your Evil Eye and bolster it further so that by level 9 your Evil Eye can (if you invest in the feats) give them a -7 penalty to all saves. This is reliant on them not being immune to mind affecting of course but the jinx element, which accounts for -3 of those penalties is not. So it does take away some of that useless feeling you can suffer as a witch
Shaman. Their evil eye hex isn't mind-affecting, they have better bab than witches for landing touch attacks, and they can steal spells from the wizard spell list.
How does the Shaman spell list stand up to a debuffing role?
Shaman. Their evil eye hex isn't mind-affecting, they have better bab than witches for landing touch attacks, and they can steal spells from the wizard spell list.
Yes but lets stick to classes that arent poorly designed, completely unwarranted and just generally OP
Also, what would be particularly good Domains if going the Bad Touch route?
(Chaos seems like fun if the spell list wasn't bleh. Darkness looks solid, and Undead seems to make for good Neg. Channeling and access to appropriate-level Enervation - Thoughts?)
Chaos(Protean) is hilarious.
Madness is also incredibly good (enjoy your bonus to skill checks while I tank everythign else!).
Luck (Curse) is also decent with a good spell list to back it up.
Repose is potentially very good.
A lot of a bad cleric's strangeths also come from their spells as well. Their are a lot of debuff spells that work at touch range.
Shaman. Their evil eye hex isn't mind-affecting, they have better bab than witches for landing touch attacks, and they can steal spells from the wizard spell list.Yes but lets stick to classes that arent poorly designed, completely unwarranted and just generally OP
How is the Shaman OP?
How is the Shaman OP?
Sorry I cant even bear to dignify that with a response!!
I haven't gotten around to thoroughly reading occult adventures yet, but how does the mesmerist and psychic line up when it comes to debuffing?
Shaman. Their evil eye hex isn't mind-affecting, they have better bab than witches for landing touch attacks, and they can steal spells from the wizard spell list.Yes but lets stick to classes that arent poorly designed, completely unwarranted and just generally OP
But if they are the best at debuffing then they should have a place in the thread about "who is the best at debuffing."
But to actually add to the thread: The Shamans spell list, personally, has always seemed to be better at battlefield control than debuffing. However, I've never looked into building a debuffer so I wouldn't know.
I have zero experience with the Shaman so I'm genuinely interested in how they are OP too. Rather than derail this, is there a discussion about this elsewhere?
The Shaman's main power comes from how absurdly flexible it is. If you count in the Spirit Talker Feat, they get 3 flexible hexes per day. They get 2 lists of spontaneous spells on top of their regular ones, with one list being flexible every day. They can mug the Sorcerer/Wizard list for different spells each day with Arcane Enlightenment. They can mug the Cleric list for spells to fill in holes with the Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc favored class bonus. They can mug a hex from the Witch list (ie Slumber). Did I mention the 3/4th BAB and 4+ Int skills yet? Or the spirit abilities, one set of which is also flexible daily? Did I mention they know their whole spell list? What about the Shaman Misfortune Hex that literally nothing (that isn't in an antimagic field) is immune to? I guess they get a spirit animal to if you care about that.
*pockets money from the Shaman Association*
Sounds like a really solid way to get totally and utterly overwhelmed by options. ;)
(Maybe not a bad problem to have, but even a good problem is still a problem!)
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Alchemist.
Dispelling bomb. Dispel all enemy buffs, on all the enemies in area of effect, all at once.
Stinking Bomb. Nauseate them. Nauseate them all. They can't do anything whilst retching.
Smoke Bomb. Screw up their aim. Hide your team's movements.
Grease Bomb/Tangle Bomb. Trip 'em up.
Confusion Bomb. Hilarity.
Plague Bomb. Give 'em a disease.
Poison Bomb. Like Cloudkill in a bottle. Deny them their chosen terrain.
Cursed Bomb. Being cursed can make them suck somewhat at things they are trying to do to your team.
Levitate or fly, and do all of the above in style our of melee range.
For extra laughs you can throw things like bottled Mephits, Stirges, and Oozes into their midst.
Combine several of the above for good times.
-Fizz
The Shaman is just as OP as the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Arcanist are. But the Shaman also has much more interesting class features and has the unusual distinction of being the only dedicated caster type that actually gets stronger with a higher point buy.
The Shaman is just as OP as the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Arcanist are. But the Shaman also has much more interesting class features and has the unusual distinction of being the only dedicated caster type that actually gets stronger with a higher point buy.
Correction & translation - The Shaman is the most OP class in PF by virtue of being given a crap load of stuff that have no thematic relevance.... leaving aside the glaring fact that the class itself is a farce since Shaman archetypes were already available via the Druid (notice nothing to do with Oracle and Witch)and going on further to prove my point there are several 3PP Shaman archetypes all based on...... yup youve guessed it... the Druid!
LOL.... "Interesting class features"..... yeah you could say that!
The Shaman is just as OP as the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Arcanist are. But the Shaman also has much more interesting class features and has the unusual distinction of being the only dedicated caster type that actually gets stronger with a higher point buy.Correction & translation - The Shaman is the most OP class in PF by virtue of being given a crap load of stuff that have no thematic relevance.... leaving aside the glaring fact that the class itself is a farce since Shaman archetypes were already available via the Druid (notice nothing to do with Oracle and Witch)and going on further to prove my point there are several 3PP Shaman archetypes all based on...... yup youve guessed it... the Druid!
LOL.... "Interesting class features"..... yeah you could say that!
Uh it actually does have interesting and flexible class features. Sure all of the abilities. And considering Spirit Shaman was a thing in 3.5, there seems plenty of space for divine caster who receives spells from spirits instead of nature or god. And the most OP class is Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerer.
Uh it actually does have interesting and flexible class features. Sure all of the abilities. And considering Spirit Shaman was a thing in 3.5, there seems plenty of space for divine caster who receives spells from spirits instead of nature or god. And the most OP class is Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerer.
You obviously havent correctly inferred my implication!
Anyway...
a) There were lots of "things" in 3.5.... that in itself doesn't justify ANYTHING.... let alone its existence in PF
b) The 3.5 "thing" is nothing like the train wreck that is the PF version
c) Its the worst designed and thought out class I've ever seen
Uh it actually does have interesting and flexible class features. Sure all of the abilities. And considering Spirit Shaman was a thing in 3.5, there seems plenty of space for divine caster who receives spells from spirits instead of nature or god. And the most OP class is Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerer.You obviously havent correctly inferred my implication!
Anyway...
a) There were lots of "things" in 3.5.... that in itself doesn't justify ANYTHING.... let alone its existence in PF
b) The 3.5 "thing" is nothing like the train wreck that is the PF version
c) Its the worst designed and thought out class I've ever seen
And this discussion is unrelated to the main topic. The Shaman is a class, if someone has a personal vendetta/strong opinions about it, that's fine. Arguing about them in a thread that is tangently related to said class, maybe less so.
The alchemist looks like an interesting idea, but I think it'd take a few levels to come online and doesn't have much extract support...
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My vote goes to Shaman and/or Wizard....witch follows closely behind but is hurt with the limitation of her spell list and the majority of her good hexes being Mind effects. The Utility of the Classes make it the best in my book. They can be godly at Debuffing one day and the next be set up for whatever life (the DM) throws at them. And everyone know versatility is King in Pathfinder.
Another notable contender is the Hangover Cleric....30ft AoE Daze is just godly as there is very little immune to being Dazed. It is that one status effect that can hinder most foes.
I will throw in the Whip Magus into the fray for single target but when overwhelmed by many foes the Wizard and Shaman just outshine.
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Define "Best" please.
Reliability of pulling off some debuff? Or most potential debuffs possible in 1 round applied to as many foes as possible??
Cause those are not usually the same PCs...
I mean hell, I'll throw the lowly Monk and Rogue in the ring; although they never keep up w full casters for max control of reality, they can do some pretty -reliable- debuting for their level and can also pull off a high potential number of debuffs on a BBEG in 1 round:
* Level 1-4: Maneuver Master & Weapon Adept monk with Kamas, Imp Trip, Imp. Dirty Trick and TWF.
...You are rolling 2 to 3 trip checks per round on a foe --after-- Flurry Maneuver rolling a check to blind them. Your CMB will hit 75% or better of CR appropriate CMDs, assuming you are well optimized.
* Level 4-8: (Unchained preferrably) Rogue Thug Scout. Worhsip Saranrae, take trait for nonlethal without penalty. Take Enforcer feat, Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Ninja Trick Pressure Points, and Ki Pool.
...Move 10' and single attack: you are Frightening/Shakening plus Debilitating Strike x2 plus Ninja Pressure Points from your Vanishing Trick invisible position 30' away with your Shortbow & blunt arrows. OR, flank and Sap them in the head for all those same debuffs, THEN use Vanishing Trick to walk away invisibly from their ally.
ALTERNATE: Use Ninja instead of Unchained, and poison all these weapons with Drow poison or whatever.
* Level 8-12: Tetori.
...apply the Pinned condition in round 1 (via either Bushwhack, or old fashioned Greater Grapple), and then proceed to apply the Unconscious condition in Round 2 (via Pinning Knockout and Constrict from your Anaconda's coils x3: grapple, greater grapple, rapid grapple.)
ALTERNATE - dipped all over Monk/Rogue: Steelblood (Abyssal) 1, Bounty Hunter 3, Maneuver Master 1, Snakebite Striker 1, Lore Warden 2, Unchained Rogue (or Ninja) 1. Tiefling w/ Maw. Buy a Helm of Mammoth Lords.
...I actually play this character. Naturally attacking for 4 attacks at full BAB, after scoring a Flurry Maneuver very high CMB Dirty Trick (Blind), means all 4 of my actual attacks also trigger dirty Trick checks. Enemy is usually Blind, Entangled, Shaken, Sickened and tripped Prone in 1 round.
* Level 12-16: OMFG Maneuver Master Four Winds monk... needs 1st "Dimensional" feat in that line of feats:
...Move action: Abundant Step next to enemy.
...Swift Action: Slow Time
...THREE Standard Actions = SIX Maneuvers (!? wtf ?!!!): Sweeping Maneuver: Dirty Trick (Blind) + Trip, Sweeping Maneuver again: Dirty Trick (Entangle) + Grapple, Sweeping Maneuver one more time: Dirty Trick (Sicken) + Grapple (Tie Up w/out pinning them... you DID take Equipment Trick (Rope) right??).
** Obviously you swap out Trip for your first Grapple check or Steal or something, as appropriate.
*** Obviously you also sport at least 2 rings of Ki Mastery to make this round doable in terms of Ki costs, and preferably 3 such rings (either via 10 Ring Broadsword or Hand of Glory amulet)
ALTERNATE: Flowing monk @ 15th with Ki Volley, Trait: Scorned by Magic and Bestiary feat for +2 Spell Resistance
...reflexively use Spell Turning to apply whatever condition the enemy caster just threw at you, right back at them.
* Level 17+: Zen Archer, w/ Ki Focus Bow & Trick Shot, Mantis Style, Quivering Palm Adept, Paralyzing fist, Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, maybe also Punishing Kick: ignore TOTAL cover and TOTAL concealment, and apply all your Ki abilities and debuting "Fist" feats from up to 10 range increments away
...So Quivering Palm opponent #1 from up to 1100 feet away (1600 feet w/ Ki Range), apply the Dead condition. Then Stunning Fist DC 33 to 36 on enemy #2 from same distance, then Touch of Serenity DC 30-32 on Target #3 using a Tangleshot arrow (so Touch AC from up to 550 feet away, or up to 800 w/ Ki Range), then Paralyzing Fist DC 30-32 on Target #4 using same mechanic to make it a touch attack, then maybe Punishing Kick on Target #5 also using that same mechanic for touch attack, etc, etc...
EDIT RE: ZAM: All these 550' up to 1600' attacks are from outside the damned dungeon, around a lot of corners, and ignoring supernatural darkness or invisibility or whatever.
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Are they Spell Level 9 debuffs? Nope. But they can do them all day long, and if well optimized, they are very reliable with them. And in some cases they can stack A LOT of FX on one target, in 1 round.
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Alchemist.
Dispelling bomb. Dispel all enemy buffs, on all the enemies in area of effect, all at once.
Stinking Bomb. Nauseate them. Nauseate them all. They can't do anything whilst retching.
Smoke Bomb. Screw up their aim. Hide your team's movements.
Grease Bomb/Tangle Bomb. Trip 'em up.
Confusion Bomb. Hilarity.
Plague Bomb. Give 'em a disease.
Poison Bomb. Like Cloudkill in a bottle. Deny them their chosen terrain.
Cursed Bomb. Being cursed can make them suck somewhat at things they are trying to do to your team.
Levitate or fly, and do all of the above in style our of melee range.
For extra laughs you can throw things like bottled Mephits, Stirges, and Oozes into their midst.
Combine several of the above for good times.
-Fizz
Oh, you're not even super including some of the other fun things, like the level of crazy you can get with Hybridization Funnel.
Burst Jar + Alchemist Fire= Deaf for a round and on fire.
Tangleburn bag + Burst Jar= Deaf for a round, entangled, AND on fire.
Ghast Retch Flask + Tangleburn bag= On fire, entangled, and sickened.
There's a lot of mundane fun you can have with alchemical items and intelligent use of the Hybridization Funnel.