| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The ultimate combat book includes a new set of armor called the Haramaki, this armor is described as metal links or plates that a centered around the belly. It provides a AC +1 bonus and has no minuses and a weight of 1.
Now the Adventure Armory has a item called the Kilt, it is a add on to armor and adds a +1 to light or medium armors and has no weight but changes the category of the armor up on type.
As best as I understand it combining these two would provide an individual with the following armor.
Haramaki w/kilt
AC Bonus: 2
Max Dex: 8
Penalty: 0
Type: Medium
Size: Medium
Now for the Question what would be the price for this if it was mithral?
Would you need to purchase mithral twice, once for the Haramaki and once for the Kilt? Would you need to purchase Mithral once but at the medium armor price? Or would you only need to purchase the Mithral once for the kilt (sense mithral has no effect mechanically on the Haramaki?
Haramaki w/mithral kilt (+1000gp)
AC Bonus: 2
Max Dex: 8
Penalty: 0
Type: Light
Size Medium
T
My general thought is that you would purchase the mithral once for the kilt, this lowers the armor catagory increase by the kilt to none. However I thought I would ask my betters about this?
From what I understand once you purchase the kilt it becomes part of the armor more or less, thus an enchanted kilt would only provide bonuses if the base armor was of a lower enchantment value. However with the Haramaki Armor it has a +1 AC and a Dex mod of 10, Adding the a mithral kilt would lower the Dex mod to 8 but keep the armor light.
What do you all think?
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I'm not sure why you'd ever need this in Mithral? The whole point is that it's giving you no penalties, correct? In that case, why do you care if it's classed as light or medium? If you're doing it to use Class Features which require light armour at most, then chances are you've got Light Armour Proficiency and would do better with a Mithral breastplate anyway.
I'm not sure why you'd ever need this in Mithral? The whole point is that it's giving you no penalties, correct? In that case, why do you care if it's classed as light or medium? If you're doing it to use Class Features which require light armour at most, then chances are you've got Light Armour Proficiency and would do better with a Mithral breastplate anyway.
Well, in this case the character has Uncanny Defense but does not have any armor proficiency. It is also a spell caster so arcane spell failure is a minor problem.
Magus Kensi (No armor proficiency's & has Uncanny Defense.) More importantly I'm just trying to understand the rules on this.
If it is possible to have a Haramiki with a kilt, and it still be considered light armor? I believe that Mithral would do the job just not sure what the raw is on the matter. Does it cost +1000 gold, +2000 gold or +4000 gold or can it not be done?
Option 1:1000 gold (Only the kilt needs to be made of Mithral)
Option 2:2000 gold (Both kilt and Haramiki need to be made out of mithral to be light armor
Option 3:4000 gold (Adding the kilt to the Haramiki makes it medium armor and thus you must pay the medium armor mithral price)
Option 4: The rules just don't support a kilt made out of mithral and it can not be used in this manor.
Option 5: (insert here!!)
i think it would only be 1023.
make the haramaki like normal then add the armored kilt.
at least thats how it made it when i did it in herolab.
mithril haramaki plus armored kilt as special option.
though neither one of those has any arcane spell failure % so i dont know why the mithril unless the haramaki weight is too much for you/
To make it easier I listing the rules on the items in questions, if I have done this wrong please let me know.
Armored Kilt
Armored Kilt
When you add an armored kilt to a suit of light armor, the set counts as medium armor. Likewise, a kilt and medium armor counts as heavy armor. Adding an armored kilt to heavy armor has no effect.
Armored Kilt* 20 gp +1 +6 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lbs. AA
Haramaki
Haramaki
Also called a belly-warmer, a haramaki is a simple silken sash lined with chainmail or articulated metal plates and tied about the stomach to protect it.
Haramaki 3 gp +1 — 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 1 lb. UC
Mithral
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
HP/inch 30
Hardness 15
Cost Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Weight 1/2 normal
Weight (Longer Wording) An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed).
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.
What does it take to get the following
Light Armor, Dex Adjustment 8, Arcane Spell Failure 0, Armor Penalty 0
Weight 6 LB (Haramaki = 1 lb, Mithral Kilt = 5 lbs)
Here are my thoughts:
Adding the kilt to the haramaki turns the combined armors into a medium armor. Thus, the cost of having them mithral is 4,000gp plus the base cost of the armor. That seems fairly clear.
Here is some support for the entirety of the armor pieces having to be made into mithral: Ultimate Combat, page 199, bottom left paragraph: "In order for the armor to gain the benefits of a special material, all armor pieces worn must be made of the same special material."
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It equally seems clear to me that if the armor is NOT made of mithral there are a few other things for the OP to consider.
Movement: all medium armors have a movement of twenty (as opposed to thirty). This seems to be a condition of the armor type category. There is some support for this being true if you look at what Mithral actually does, and the way it's worded.
Regarding movement penalties to medium armor, please note the core PRG, page 154 in the section dealing with Mithral: "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of MOVEMENT and other limitations." (*emphasis mine)
The above makes clear that medium armors are not intended to have the same movement capability of light armors. Additionally, the mithral material even lowers the armor check penalty by 3, supposedly because it is lowering the size of the armor. It stands to any reasonable interpretation that raising the armor check penalty by 3 would be a fair practice when increasing the armor type.
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My ruling on this:
In regards to armor check penalty, and chance of spell failure, I lean toward the conclusion that both should fall into the lowest possible area as set by the precedent of other medium armors. Specifically, a penalty of -3 to armor check (as supported by the inverse happening in regards to Mithral), and giving a 20% chance of spell failure (the lowest spell failure percentage listed for medium armors).
Again, that's assuming that mithral is not involved. If the whole of the suit was to be made as mithral it would cost 4,000 gold plus the base cost of the armor itself.
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RAW the 'weight category' of armour doesn't, in itself, have any effect other than define which Proficiency you need in order to not take the penalties on all rolls, and to define the usability of a few Class Features (like the kensai's Canny Defense in this case).
So, a haramaki + armoured kilt may be classed as medium armour, but that doesn't add any additional penalties whatsoever. Making it Mithral is pretty much pointless, as all you'll do is reduce the weight a little bit, and up the Maximum Dexterity bonus a bit (but that's already pretty high) - all the kensai is doing is spending a lot of ca$h to add a tiny extra +1 AC. For the gp that takes (be it 1,000gp twice, or 4,000gp once) he could more easily just enchant his haramaki to +1 (for a mere 1,000gp), or buy a Ring of Protection (for 2,000gp). IMHO.
RAW the 'weight category' of armour doesn't, in itself, have any effect other than define which Proficiency you need in order to not take the penalties on all rolls, and to define the usability of a few Class Features (like the kensai's Canny Defense in this case).
So, a haramaki + armoured kilt may be classed as medium armour, but that doesn't add any additional penalties whatsoever. Making it Mithral is pretty much pointless, as all you'll do is reduce the weight a little bit, and up the Maximum Dexterity bonus a bit (but that's already pretty high) - all the kensai is doing is spending a lot of ca$h to add a tiny extra +1 AC. For the gp that takes (be it 1,000gp twice, or 4,000gp once) he could more easily just enchant his haramaki to +1 (for a mere 1,000gp), or buy a Ring of Protection (for 2,000gp). IMHO.
By the time this is better than UMDing a wand of mage armor (a paltry 750gp), you'll be looking at spending enough to purchase like a +3-+4 haramaki, so mithral probably isn't a HUGE added cost. I'd assume 1000 to make the haramaki mithral and then 'adding' the kilt is the correct option, though mithral would obviously be more beneficial on the kilt.
all the kensai is doing is spending a lot of ca$h to add a tiny extra +1 AC. For the gp that takes (be it 1,000gp twice, or 4,000gp once) he could more easily just enchant his haramaki to +1 (for a mere 1,000gp), or buy a Ring of Protection (for 2,000gp). IMHO.
Your point is very true. It is a simple +1 AC Bonus. I don't even know why someone would care about the trade off of 1000 gp for looks and a +1 ac but some do. It would be just as easy to purchase a +1 Enhancement bounes for 1000 gp.
Facts Mithral does NOTHING for a Harakmie! Nothing except reduce it's weight by .5 a pound!! It has no mechanical benefit,or combat effect. It may however has some fluff in description (Silvery metal links)
Mithral has little to no impact upon a kilt, what it does is make the kilt one category lighter of setting the one category heavier. That's what the 1000 gp is being spent for, it does make the Dex Max 8 vs 6, but the Harakmie has a 10 (Which is Max).
You could easily accomplish this by a +1 Enchantment bonus. Never the less this ruling affects other armors far more.
Chain Shirt w/Kilt (Do I make the Kilt Mithral or The Shirt for 1000gp I get a +1 any which way I look
RAW the 'weight category' of armour doesn't, in itself, have any effect other than define which Proficiency you need in order to not take the penalties on all rolls, and to define the usability of a few Class Features (like the kensai's Canny Defense in this case).
So, a haramaki + armoured kilt may be classed as medium armour, but that doesn't add any additional penalties whatsoever. Making it Mithral is pretty much pointless, as all you'll do is reduce the weight a little bit, and up the Maximum Dexterity bonus a bit (but that's already pretty high) - all the kensai is doing is spending a lot of ca$h to add a tiny extra +1 AC. For the gp that takes (be it 1,000gp twice, or 4,000gp once) he could more easily just enchant his haramaki to +1 (for a mere 1,000gp), or buy a Ring of Protection (for 2,000gp). IMHO.
1. RAW does say that armor 'weight categories' affect movement. Otherwise, we wouldn't know how much mithral increases the movement rate when the armor 'weight category' is lowered.
2. RAW does, at the very least, largely indicate to us what boundaries the armor 'weight categories' exist in. The spell failure chances go up, and the armor check penalties go up. There aren't a bunch of wild cards mixed in. The indicated pattern is pretty darn clear.
3. An enchantment of +1 can always be added to the mithral version of the haramaki and kilt combination, effectively giving +2 more AC. Yes, with all else being equal there might be a cheaper way to immediately get the +1 AC (via enchantment), but the long run has to be considered also. Thus, there pretty much is a reason to use the haramaki with the kilt. As far as using other armors instead: the original poster hasn't chosen to do so because of the negatives that come with them, rather it be weight or spell failure chance. The haramaki/kilt/mithral combo looks really enticing when built to have zeroes in movement penalty, spell failure chance, and armor check penalty.
Remember, this character has NO armor proficiency, and HAS to have light armor (or no armor) to use canny defense. It's not a bad choice. It should just be paid for appropriately.
4. The cost to have the armor is 4,000 gold plus the base cost of the armor. This isn't even debatable, and I can't believe people here are even suggesting otherwise. Armored kilts make the armor they are attached to go up one 'weight category'. Period. It becomes medium armor. Medium armor has a charge of 4,000 gold when made in mithral. That's the rule. It really is that simple.
RAW the 'weight category' of armour doesn't, in itself, have any effect other than define which Proficiency you need in order to not take the penalties on all rolls, and to define the usability of a few Class Features (like the kensai's Canny Defense in this case).
So, a haramaki + armoured kilt may be classed as medium armour, but that doesn't add any additional penalties whatsoever. Making it Mithral is pretty much pointless, as all you'll do is reduce the weight a little bit, and up the Maximum Dexterity bonus a bit (but that's already pretty high) - all the kensai is doing is spending a lot of ca$h to add a tiny extra +1 AC. For the gp that takes (be it 1,000gp twice, or 4,000gp once) he could more easily just enchant his haramaki to +1 (for a mere 1,000gp), or buy a Ring of Protection (for 2,000gp). IMHO.
1. RAW does say that armor 'weight categories' affect movement. Otherwise, we wouldn't know how much mithral increases the movement rate when the armor 'weight category' is lowered.
2. RAW does, at the very least, largely indicate to us what boundaries the armor 'weight categories' exist in. The spell failure chances go up, and the armor check penalties go up. There aren't a bunch of wild cards mixed in. The indicated pattern is pretty darn clear.
3. An enchantment of +1 can always be added to the mithral version of the haramaki and kilt combination, effectively giving +2 more AC. Yes, with all else being equal there might be a cheaper way to immediately get the +1 AC (via enchantment), but the long run has to be considered also. Thus, there pretty much is a reason to use the haramaki with the kilt. As far as using other armors instead: the original poster hasn't chosen to do so because of the negatives that come with them, rather it be weight or spell failure chance. The haramaki/kilt/mithral combo looks really enticing when built to have zeroes in movement penalty, spell failure chance, and armor check penalty.
Remember, this character has NO...
Here in lies the unique circumstances of the kilt.
Logically I can get a set of light armor made of mithral for 1000gp, so two sets would be 2000gp. Now wit armored kilt I have the option of combining the two into one. The real question is if the armored kilt is a add on to an existing set of armor or something that must be crafted with the other set of armor.
Too phrase it in another way, is the character wearing a kilted Haramaki or a Haramaki wit an armored kilt?
In the first option One can pay 1003gp for a mithral Haramaki and later purchase an armored kilt made of mithral for 1020gp. This seems to be how the item is supposed to be used. Total cost 2023.
In the second method One would purchase, craft, or order both armies merged as one. Then the cost would be 4023.
Now setting aside the mechanical aspects for a second, what is the spirit or design intent behind the armored kilt. From all that I have read it seems to be a individual armor that can be added to other armors to provide better defense. I'm nor a designer, but this seems to be what most folks think. Now it does seem that when combined with magical armor (and if the kilt where enchanted) the armor with the best enchantment overrides the other.
I think that sums up most of the options. So is the kilt an individual armor that can be combined with other armors then removed and combined with some other armor or not?
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1. RAW does say that armor 'weight categories' affect movement. Otherwise, we wouldn't know how much mithral increases the movement rate when the armor 'weight category' is lowered.
Please quote where the RAW for this is? I can't recall it saying this anywhere (all armour has its own movement rate listed on the table), and the new Ultimate Combat rules for piecemeal armour directly contradict your assumptions here.
2. RAW does, at the very least, largely indicate to us what boundaries the armor 'weight categories' exist in. The spell failure chances go up, and the armor check penalties go up. There aren't a bunch of wild cards mixed in. The indicated pattern is pretty darn clear.
Again - that's not RAW, that's your assumptions of how things work, and they're contradicted in UC.
3. An enchantment of +1 can always be added to the mithral version of the haramaki and kilt combination, effectively giving +2 more AC. Yes, with all else being equal there might be a cheaper way to immediately get the +1 AC (via enchantment), but the long run has to be considered also. Thus, there pretty much is a reason to use the haramaki with the kilt. As far as using other armors instead: the original poster hasn't chosen to do so because of the negatives that come with them, rather it be weight or spell failure chance. The haramaki/kilt/mithral combo looks really enticing when built to have zeroes in movement penalty, spell failure chance, and armor check penalty.
Sure, +1 AC for 1,000gp is never really bad, as long as it still stacks will all your mundane AC (which an armoured kilt does). On the other hand, it doesn't look like the whole Mithral armoured kilt thing really works RAW anyhow - an armoured kilt bumps the 'weight class' of any other armour up by one class, no matter what: nothing suggests that making it (or even it plus the base armour) Mithral brings that back down again. A Mithral haramaki is light armour, a Mithral armoured kilt is light armour, the two combined is still medium armour... or, at least, it looks to be that way RAW. RAI - who knows?
Remember, this character has NO armor proficiency, and HAS to have light armor (or no armor) to use canny defense. It's not a bad choice. It should just be paid for appropriately.
No, it's a bad choice because it doesn't work - at least not without some DM houseruling on your side - and it's a more complicated way of doing something a simple +1 enchantment can handle.
4. The cost to have the armor is 4,000 gold plus the base cost of the armor. This isn't even debatable, and I can't believe people here are even suggesting otherwise. Armored kilts make the armor they are attached to go up one 'weight category'. Period. It becomes medium armor. Medium armor has a charge of 4,000 gold when made in mithral. That's the rule. It really is that simple.
It is debatable if you think that the whole set is treated as one thing, because that's not the way an armoured kilt works - it can just as easily be worn as light armour by itself. The cost for a Mithral haramaki is +1,000gp, as is the cost of a Mithral armoured kilt - it's just a pointless thing to even do.
If worn with any other armour the armoured kilt just provides +1 AC and bumps the weight class up by one. Messing about with the kilt itself is, by and large, a worthless exercise. The best you can get away with is Mithral full plate (for +9 AC medium armour), bumped back to heavy armour with an armoured kilt (for a total of +10 armour bonus to AC, before enchantments are added in)... and, let's be honest, that's mostly an option for the AC optimisers only (and doesn't help the OP who needs to stick to light armour anyway).
Potts,
1. Table 8-3 on page 193 of the core book dictates speed rates based on armor type. Please check it out. Medium armor lowers a speed of thirty to a speed of twenty. If that's not RAW I don't know what is.
The haramaki and kilt combination make the armor medium. The speed is twenty.
2. I said it was "indicated" by the chart we all know and love on page 151. That is to say that the RAW has created a suggestive pattern we can use some basic common sense with to follow.
Additionally, another dose of common sense tells us that raising the armor weight category should have an impact roughly equivalent to lowering an armor weight category. And RAW does indeed provide us with an exact example of what happens when a weight category is lowered.
Choosing to ignore the obvious here is a touch intransigent.
Regarding a contradiction in Ultimate Combat: I have no idea what you're talking about. A) I don't see a kilt listed in the piecemeal armor section of the Ultimate Combat, and B) all the specific pieces of armor add up to the same numbers as the full suit.
3. The assumption that mithral does not lower the category back down is either, at best, dull-witted, or, at worst, being contrary just to be contrary.
We know that medium and heavy mithral armors are one category lighter for purposes of movement and other limitations. We also know that an armored kilt added to a set of light armor counts as medium armor.
We also know that the piecemeal armor rules in Ultimate Combat break the cost of each piece of mithral armor into an amount that adds up to: you guessed it, the cost of putting mithral on the appropriate size armor, i.e. light, medium or heavy.
4. It obviously counts as one set. Read the armored kilt.
Here's a worthwhile quote from it: "the set counts as medium armor". These things don't get much clearer.
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It does appear that the Armored Kilt does have a * denoting a very important phrase.
* Can be worn alone or added to existing suits of armor.
Note the word existing! If you purchase a mithral chain shirt and later you purchase a mithral armored kilt the cost are going to be 1000+ Cost of Chain, and 1000+ cost of armored kilt.
Now when you add them together they are indeed a medium armor, and I will concede with the concept of reducing the speed, but not any thing else because the devs have revised the armored kilt to not have armor check or spell failure!.
If they wanted as you suggest Jo then why did they remove armor check, and spell failure from the write up. Heck they also removed the speed reduction.
Orginal Armored Kilt Description
+1 AC, -1 ACP, -5' movement, 15 lbs when added to armor, 10 when worn alone.
Revised
+1 AC, 10lbs
Do the the very nature of the kilt I'm convinced that the Cost for a Haramaki and armored kilt combo made in mithral would be 2000gp + 23 for the armors. The only reason I'm convinced is because both are purchased separately as individual Light Armors!
Another note is listed in the SRD
Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, hurts a character's ability to use Dex- and Str-based skills. An armor check penalty applies to all Dex- and Strength-based skill checks. A character's encumbrance may also incur an armor check penalty.
Leather Armor has a listed weight of 15 pounds
A Haramaki and Armored kilt combined weigh 11 poundsBy RAW adding a ACP (Armor Check Penalty) is against the rules.
The only thing that is affected by the Armor Type seems to be speed by the SRD
Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character's speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. They use the first column. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have an unencumbered speed of 20 feet. They use the second column. Remember, however, that a dwarf's land speed remains 20 feet even in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Spell Failure is independent from the weight and the type in it's listing.
So I belive the following to be true
Harakami, Mithral AC +1, Max Dex 12, ACP 0, Spell Failure 0 Speed 30 Weight .5 Cost 1003
Armored Kilt, Mithral AC =1 Max Dex 8, ACP 0, Spell Failure 0 Speed 30 Weight 5 cost 1020
Once Combined Kilted Harakami, Mithral
AC +2, Max Dex 8, ACP 0, Spell Failure 0, Speed 30, Weight 5.5, Cost 2023
Standard Combined Kilted Haramaki
AC +2, Max Dex 6, ACP 0, Spell Failure 0, Speed 20, Weight 11, Cost 23
It does seem to be true that once combined you can only gain the benefits of Mitral if both parts are Mithral. But you can always separate the two and wear the one you wish.
Lamellar Cuirass (Mithril), Armoured Kilt = = 1235gp, +5 AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 0% ASF
I would have to say no on this, just because the SRD has a set of Lamellar Steel listed. To compare the Lamellar Cuirass to the Lamellar Steel may be too subjective.
FAQ'd the OP. I urge others to do so.
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This thread has some relevant input from SKR, which basically seems to boil down to two things: for the purposes of bonuses, just treat the armour + kilt as 'a set of armour', and an armoured kilt isn't an option you choose to add to armour when you buy it, it's a seperate piece of armour you can wear in addition to your normal armour.
1. Table 8-3 on page 193 of the core book dictates speed rates based on armor type. Please check it out. Medium armor lowers a speed of thirty to a speed of twenty. If that's not RAW I don't know what is.
The haramaki and kilt combination make the armor medium. The speed is twenty.
Things have moved on a bit since then...
If a character is wearing more than one armor piece, she add the armor costs, armor bonuses, and weights of the armor pieces, and takes the worst maximum Dexterity bonus, arcane spell failure chance, and speed limitations from among the various armor pieces to determine the full statistics and qualities of the armor she is wearing.
When a character is wearing at least one armor piece of a type with which he is not proficient, he takes the armor check penalty of that piece on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving.
... If you wear plate arms, scale legs, and a chain torso then you need both Medium and Heavy Armour Proficiencies to not take the usual additional penalties, yet your speed is still 30ft (medium).
3. The assumption that mithral does not lower the category back down is either, at best, dull-witted, or, at worst, being contrary just to be contrary.
I'm not sure how being insulting moves the discussion onwards, but hey, YMMV...
To be honest, after reading SKR's comments on the thread linked above I'll happily change my mind and agree that a Mithral haramaki + a Mithral kilt does indeed still count as light armour. It also only costs 1,003gp for the Mithral haramaiki, and 1,020gp for the Mithral armoured kilt, since you buy them seperately and just wear them together. It's still an expensive way to raise your AC by 1, but not bad after you've already got your +1 haramaki, +1 Ring of Protection, and +1 Amulet of Natural Armour.
4. It obviously counts as one set. Read the armored kilt.
It counts as one set for 'effects', yes, but not for the purposes of purchasing the thing.
BTW, if using the piecemeal armour rules, the non-proficient caster can go one better and add Mithral studded leather legs (page 118 of the Gamemastery Guide specifically allows Mithral studded leather in case you're wondering) for another +1 AC. 3,028gp for +3 AC is steep, but some may consider it worth the cost.
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This thread has some relevant input from SKR, which basically seems to boil down to two things: for the purposes of bonuses, just treat the armour + kilt as 'a set of armour', and an armoured kilt isn't an option you choose to add to armour when you buy it, it's a seperate piece of armour you can wear in addition to your normal armour.
1. Table 8-3 on page 193 of the core book dictates speed rates based on armor type. Please check it out. Medium armor lowers a speed of thirty to a speed of twenty. If that's not RAW I don't know what is.
The haramaki and kilt combination make the armor medium. The speed is twenty.
Things have moved on a bit since then...
If a character is wearing more than one armor piece, she add the armor costs, armor bonuses, and weights of the armor pieces, and takes the worst maximum Dexterity bonus, arcane spell failure chance, and speed limitations from among the various armor pieces to determine the full statistics and qualities of the armor she is wearing.When a character is wearing at least one armor piece of a type with which he is not proficient, he takes the armor check penalty of that piece on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving.... If you wear plate arms, scale legs, and a chain torso then you need both Medium and Heavy Armour Proficiencies to not take the usual additional penalties, yet your speed is still 30ft (medium).
3. The assumption that mithral does not lower the category back down is either, at best, dull-witted, or, at worst, being contrary just to be contrary.I'm not sure how being insulting moves the discussion onwards, but hey, YMMV...
To be honest, after reading SKR's comments on the thread linked above I'll happily change my mind and agree that a Mithral haramaki + a Mithral kilt does...
You're ruling works if you are using the piecemeal armor rules, however that is an optional ruleset, its like trying to apply something from the words of power to a discussion on phantasmal killer. If you're using the base rules, then the interpretation that it reduces speed applies. Basically you're both right using different assumptions. However, nothing increases spell failure or ACP so that was just a leap on his part.
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You're ruling works if you are using the piecemeal armor rules, however that is an optional ruleset, its like trying to apply something from the words of power to a discussion on phantasmal killer. If you're using the base rules, then the interpretation that it reduces speed applies. Basically you're both right using different assumptions. However, nothing increases spell failure or ACP so that was just a leap on his part.
The point I was making is more along the lines that there is the possibility, within the rules set we have, of armours of 'X' weight class having different speed limits to those laid out on table 8-3. I could also have used the example of stoneplate from the Adventurer's Armory - heavy armour with a medium move rate of 15ft (rather than the 20ft dictated by the table) - but it's a more obscure reference to a book not everyone will have access to.
Table 8-3 is all well and good, but even that section of the rules notes the whole 'Bonuses to Speed' issue as well. Table 8-3 isn't the final word, RAW - if it was then no speed bonuses or penalties would ever apply to any characters:
PC Wizard: I cast expeditious retreat and move 60ft!
DM: Sorry... table 8-3 states you only get to move 30ft in 'no armour'...
... Doesn't make much sense, does it?
There's no references anywhere in the Armoured Kilt rules which state that the character's move rate is reduced, and certainly no rules to state that the DM is meant to arbitrarily heap on other penalties by somehow reverse-engineering the difference between medium and light armours. It's better to just choose to ban the thing outright than to backhandedly nerf it into the ground... IMHO.
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So as I see it now, including all of the other threads that are about this matter the armored kilt rules are as follows.
The armored kilt is a set of light armor.
The armored kilt can be added to another set of armor but it increases that armors type by one step larger unless it is already heavy armor.
Special material effects of the armored kilt (if any) are only applied if the kilt is worn individually or if the armor to which the kilt is combined with is made of the same material.
Magical Enhancements made to the kilt do not stack with the armor that the kilt is combined with (choose one either the kilts magic or the other armors).
For the cases of cost treat the kilt as an individual set of armor for determining material cost. The kilt has a special property where it can provide a +1 AC for the penalty of a shift in armor type and adding 10 pounds.
Example: A Mithral Kilt cost 1020 gp, if you wanted the benefits of Mithral it could only be applied to a set of armor that was also made of Mithral!
Does that about sum up the the thoughts on this unique item?
*Special note when the armor upgrades type adjust speed according.
I'm not going to waste a whole lot more time on this thread.
But I will take a moment to say that "it counts as medium armor." That means something. It doesn't say, "it counts as medium armor, except for the cost of mithral." It doesn't say, "it counts as medium armor, except when in regards to speed."
Frankly, it doesn't need to tell you what the movement penalty will be because the armor movement penalty chart already does that. And no, Potts Professor, the game has not "moved on" from the Core Rulebook. It's, uhm, the Core Rulebook.
It counts as medium armor. Medium armor has a cost correlation with mithral. Trying to circumvent that is using specious logic, at best. It's making a wild assumption that the table listing the cost, and the table listing the movement speed is irrelevant because of wannabe attitudes, and poor thinking. That's just not the case, and suggesting otherwise is doing a disservice to folks who come here to get a sense of what the rules actually are.
All of the piecemeal armor rules (which are optional, and as I mentioned above do not even mention the armored kilt) combine the armor pieces to ultimately equal the relevant cost of mithral, and to equal the final movement rate of the armor piece in question. If you choose to try to mismatch the armor types to game the piecemeal rules, that's your choice. But it has no bearing on the kilt, or the RAW in regards to the kilt . . . which, again, is COUNTED as medium armor.
I am somewhat disappointed in this community for not setting a higher bar in regards to replies based on legitimate critical thinking.
Also note, from my very first post I have been clear that adding minuses to spell failure, and armor check penalties is, as another poster put it, a leap. It isn't supported clearly by the RAW. My position has simply been that I lean towards doing that; in essence, to make the armored kilt more congruent with the overall system. In no way does that backhandedly nerf the kilt "into the ground." It's still an effective choice even under that ruling, imo.
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I am somewhat disappointed in this community for not setting a higher bar in regards to replies based on legitimate critical thinking.
I imagine this community may be slightly disappointed in posters who feel the need to insult others when they take differing stances in discussions, but again, YMMV.
The rules do move on from the Core book. Take a look at the help/FAQ button to see some good examples.
The piecemeal armour rules are optional, yes, but they also show us what the Paizo guys' intentions are with regards to the concept of combining differing pieces of armour. I feel that counts for something, but again, YMMV.
The fact that you can buy (for example) a Mithral haramaki and a Mithral armoured kilt as seperate light armours and wear them together has been confirmed by the deveopers. Link provided up-thread.
Table 8-3 isn't the final word on a character's movement rate. It states that in that very section of the rulebook, and there are Paizo-published armours which contradict the listed movement rates.
The text on an armoured kilt says that wearing it with other armour makes that armour counts as one 'weight class' higher, but lists no other penalties. While the intent for that was pretty hard to determine from that scant text before, since UC came out (as I noted above) we can see what Paizo's intent on such things is. Take that as you will.
Of course, this discussion seems to have degenerated into a difference of opinions. I'm fine with that, and I hope the discussion has, overall, been helpful to anyone reading it, but there doesn't seem to be much more to say on the matter, so it's probably time to call it a day.
I would rule is you make them mithral as a whole set of medium armor at the cost of 4,000 gold if you want to have the benefit of not having your movement cut down for wearing medium armor, though you can still use the armors individually, possibly add the kilt to another suit of mithral armor.
As I see it by RAW there is no way to avoid making the armor medium armor if you treat them as individual components. light armor + kilt = still medium armor wether they are mithral or not.
I take medium or heavy armors with a different movement rate description as specific exceptions to the medium armor rule.
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It counts as medium armor. Medium armor has a cost correlation with mithral. Trying to circumvent that is using specious logic, at best. It's making a wild assumption that the table listing the cost, and the table listing the movement speed is irrelevant because of wannabe attitudes, and poor thinking. That's just not the case, and suggesting otherwise is doing a disservice to folks who come here to get a sense of what the rules actually are.
Except that its just as logical to say that you can go into a store and purchase a mithral armored kilt, and nothing else, You can buy just the kilt. Can you wear just an armored kilt or do the rules for armored kilts prevent that? I ask because the armored kilt isn't actually listed in the AA merely rules for converting it from the Campaign Guide. If you can wear just an armored kilt without attaching it to other armor, then it's not specious or a wild assumption, it's the way it works, and no matter how insulting you try to get that won't change it. Now if the armored kilt can only be used while attached to another piece of armor, and isn't interchangable, i.e. you can't when you replace your studded with a chain shirt, then take off your kilt and put it on the chin shirt, then I'd agree with you. But otherwise, you're interpreting the RAW and playing a gamist style that isn't logical at all using non-RAW logic.
Can someone post the full entry for the armored kilt from the campaign setting?
I'm not exactly sure where I've been insulting. I don't follow the line of reasoning behind that accusation. Sure, I'm a fairly plain-spoken man, but pointing out arguments in a debate as being specious isn't insulting . . . it's calling it like I see it. We're not here to walk on eggshells, and blow smoke at one another. At least I'm not. I'm here to discuss; often vigorously.
Regardless, just because you find what you consider a "real world logic error instance" with how the mithral cost works with medium armor doesn't mean that the rule in the book doesn't dictate a cost of 4,000 gold for medium armors. There are a ton of "logic" errors in gaming; I would think that we'd all be used to such by now. They create great opportunities for you to create house rules, but that's what they are -- house rules.
In RAW medium armor has a cost of 4,000 gold if you want the mithral qualities. Stacking a kilt on light armor makes it count as medium. Thus, you pay the price, or you house rule it otherwise.
Personally, I have no trouble running a game where the charge for a mithral suit of light armor and armored kilt costs 4,000 gold. I don't find a need to change that rule, it works fine for me. But you're always welcome to house rule it as you see fit.
Remember, just because you obviously need more mithral to make a suit of Full Plate than you do to make a suit of Half Plate does not, by RAW, lower the mithral cost for the suit of armor in question. The rules are there to help with game balance. They're not always going to make the most sense to you, but hey, them's the rules. And they continue being the rules until faq's answer otherwise; and by otherwise, I mean explicitly.
So my understanding is that you can buy a mithril armored kilt and wear it around as your only armor.
Later you can pick up a mithril haramaki, put the kilt in a chest and wear the haramaki around by itself.
The next day you remember that you can combine the two and they work together.
Maybe I am not understanding the other arguments, but I can't see why it would be anything other than +1000 g for each of the two completely separate pieces.
A more important question to me would be how do enchantments stack?
For example, if I were to combine a +2 Mithril Haramaki and a +1 Mithril Armored Kilt, I would expect to get a +2 Mithril Haramaki with the +1 AC from the armored kilt (the two enhancement bonuses not stacking, so you just take the better). But once you start throwing on other non-AC enhancement enchants would they still apply?
So would a +1 Fortification, light, Spell Resistance (13) Mithril Haramaki (total cost being 3 + 1000 + 9000), with a +1 champion dastard mithril armored kilt (total cost 20 + 1000 + 9000) end up with a final armor that has a 3 AC (+1 enhancment, +1 haramaki, +1 kilt) and the light fortification, spell resistance (13), champion, dastard armor?
(yeah, I know that you can't have champion and dastard on the same armor, I was looking for +1 enchants real quick to make a point)
OR
Because you can't have two magic items taking up the same slot, would you need to choose one or the other the receive magic enhancements from?
If you had enchanted a single piece of armor with all those it would have been a +5 weapon or +25,000 g, where as here is is only +18,000 for the enchantments... so it becomes significantly cheaper to get special armor enchants this way.
Sean Mahoney
The more I think about it, the more I don't think mithral would do anything at all in this situation (other than drop the total weight).
Since you would be making a mithril haramki it would remain light armor and have half the weight. But at that point the mithril has been accounted for... you wouldn't do it again just because an armor kilt was applied to it.
I think a Mithril armor kilt + a mithril haramaki is still medium armor.
Sean Mahoney
The more I think about it, the more I don't think mithral would do anything at all in this situation (other than drop the total weight).
Since you would be making a mithril haramki it would remain light armor and have half the weight. But at that point the mithril has been accounted for... you wouldn't do it again just because an armor kilt was applied to it.
I think a Mithril armor kilt + a mithril haramaki is still medium armor.
Sean Mahoney
That is my thought as well, tohugh it would increase the max dex bonus and decrease weight, it would still hamper movement as medium armor.