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Kirth Gersen wrote:

1. I'd steer clear of making effectively Tiny PC races -- they tend to be too good as full casters.

2. If you want them to have dragon abilities, that's what the lizardfolk/half-dragon racial class levels (Chapter 2) are for (for non-casters), or the Draconic bloodline (for sorcerers).

1: understood

2: it's not necessarily 'dragon abilities' that I want. I just want Kobolds and how they work. The connection to their patron was going to do something mechanically different than just being 'half dragon'
3: the idea of taking class levels to represent your race doesn't sit right with me. I think that Race and Class should be completely separate personally


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
While an argument could be made for at least Lesser Celerity that it's a "movement" trick, it would still be nice to specify if swift/immediate action spells retain their cast time when turned into skill tricks.
Now that I've got the spells rules functioning correctly, I need to go back through all the other chapters (esp. classes, races, equipment, and monsters) and make sure they're playing nicely together. Stay tuned for more details, as I figure them out.

I'd kind of rather have the Combat section up and running more than a skill trick that I can just decide to not take. If you could get that done before going through the rest of the chapters to audit spellcasting, I would appreciate it immensely.

Of course, I know that you have a lot of work to do and I don't want to come off as whiny or anything, but I'm in the early stages of running a Kirthfinder game (my first game ever as a GM) and having a complete rulebook would greatly ease my anxiousness.


Warriorking9001 wrote:
the idea of taking class levels to represent your race doesn't sit right with me. I think that Race and Class should be completely separate personally

Unfortunately, it's really the only way to handle more powerful races while maintaining any semblance of game balance.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Unfortunately, it's really the only way to handle more powerful races while maintaining any semblance of game balance.

I will say this is true for certain things (the Half-Dragon stuff in particular), but I feel that some races could potentially just have a stat block without needing to take a new class for it, particularly the Drow. Vanilla had drow as a PC race already without Level Advancement.

Speaking of drow, I actually started to put together something for them... I feel like an idiot for asking you this, but could you take a look to see if it seems to be okay so far? (it's not complete, and again I get it's dumb to be asking your advice for my setting since you probably think I'm picky or something for not taking it how you put it in the book, but it would help a lot)

drow stats:
DROW
Yet another offshoot of Elves, it is said that the first drow were cursed with their coal black skin for betraying the Sidhe in exchange for Demonic patrons like The Spider Queen… Such elves are often portrayed as sadomasochistic parodies of their former selves. This is true to an extent, but not quite to the excess that most assume.
In the world of Theamonte, there are actually Two forms of drow. Those that follow the Widow, and those that follow the Weaver.

Widow drow are about what you would expect drow to be, the stereotypes, their taste for evil, their murderous ambition and willingness to murder each other for even the slightest bit of power, and their cultural misandry.
Weaver Drow started with a simple cleric who heard whispers of a way to create a world that benefitted all drow, rather than just helping herself. She took this whisper as a sign from the divine, and brought a number of lower class drow out to help her start a new home on the surface. These Drow take the deserts of () as their home, building a sandy empire for a new people (Think Gerudo).
Physcial appearance: Drow tend to have surprisingly little variation, all having a similar coal black skin tone, silvery white or hair that matches their skin, and crimson eyes (though some Surface Drow have been seen with Topaz colored eyes.)
Type: Drow are Humanoids [Civilized] and have the [Drow] Subtype.
Languages: Drow begin play speaking Common And their choice of either Undercommon (for Widow Drow) or Weaver (a dialect specifically made by the weavers to be distinct from their traditional language). Drow with high intelligence scores can learn Undercommon, Weaver (whichever they don’t have), Terran, Infernal, High Elf, Wood Elf, and Goblin.
Attribute modifiers: +2 dex, +2 cha, -2 con. Drow are swift and seductive, but frail.
Racial Feats: Select 2 of the following
Backstabber (Ex): Gain 1d6 sneak attack damage.
Elven Immunities (Ex): You gain Arcane Defense (enchantment; sleep) as a bonus feat (Chapter 5).
Eternal Grudge (Ex): You grew up in an elitist community where generations-old slights and quarrels linger as eternal blood feuds. You gain a +2 favored enemy bonus (as the ranger lore; Chapter 3) against civilized humanoids, or against uncivilized humanoids.

Also I should mention that for Elves I replaced light sensitivity with iron allergy for this new setting


Flavor stuff for your own homebrew world(s) should be up to you and your players -- I wouldn't presume to have any input with that.


Hey, Kirth. I was looking through the Beastiary for an encounter I could throw at my party, and I kind of noticed that the Kirthfinder Beastiary seems to be lacking in Undead creatures. Are they somewhere else, or are you still working on that section like you are on the Combat Chapter?


Kaouse,

I honestly wasn't sure where to go with them. Making up standardized rules, like for the other monsters, was one possibility, but there are already like 300 undead templates published. Mostly I've been statting undead by slapping the skeleton warrior, juju zombie, ghost, etc. templates on other things -- but nothing really official yet.


Can Feat mastery allow you to qualify for feat unlocks / tiers 5 levels early / boost your effective class level past you hit dice?

For example Could a 11th level fighter take feat mastery vital strike to count as level 16 for the purposes of vital strike?

I could swear it let you do that but I can't find an explicit call out in the feat. Although to me it's implied because of the specific exclusion of early spell access with magical tallent.


The general rule capping your "effective class level" at your total HD (Ch 1) would normally be definitive, but in retrospect I really would like to see access 5 levels early be possible, which is what Feat Mastery was supposed to do. I'll have to clarify the language so as to avoid contradictions.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Flavor stuff for your own homebrew world(s) should be up to you and your players -- I wouldn't presume to have any input with that.

Well, I'm not really asking for fluff and flavor, I'm asking you for the balance side of things. Whether I can end up handing in the wrong combination of traits and race feats that end up breaking something (though I do need to fill out the race feats and traits more).

I feel like with drow this will be relatively simple, but I think it's still worth getting another pair of eyes.. And your advice can help me better shape my other races for the setting. And on top of all of that, I think that the next two races will be a lot more complex to balance. the Dragonbloods (Working title, whether they'll be Dragonborn, Dragonkin, Dragonbloods, or something else is up in the air) and the Kobolds.

Also some balance checks on things I gave to base races

both forms of elves got an Iron Allergy in place of light sensitivity.

Wood Elf Trait
•Ancestral Blade (Ex): Some Wood Elf warriors are greatly connected to the spirits of the forest, and find it calling them to take arms. These elves gain the Ancestral Weapon feat, and can consider it under a constant Ironwood spell. (This also allows them to take wooden forms of weapons which normally should not be able to be made of wood, like a Sword or an Axe)

Human Trait choice (or would this go into feats)
•Ancestral Relic: Some Humans hold a particular sentiment towards a particular object, and from this bond gains power. They gain Ancestral Weapon as a bonus feat

Mountain Dwarf Feat
•Armored Caster (Ex): You gain the Armored Caster feat as a bonus feat.


So far nothing looks too broken, although I'd make the wood elf one a feat, rather than a trait.

That said, I'd like to leave this thread (as much as possible) for rules-specific stuff, not for people's personal homebrew worlds. Separate threads for the latter might be more appropriate.


I have two rules questions/clarifications

1. Can the Summoner sorcerer variant get any class synergy from other classes or racial classes? Most entries for synergy from other classes specify bloodline powers/resistances, but the Summoner description states somewhat emphatically that the Summoner's Eidolon and other features is not a bloodline. Also, the Greater Aspect power calls out evolution points, but it looks like the Eidolon is now customized by CR +1 additions. Similarly, in the feats section, evolution points are still referenced.

2. Alchemy Skill: Does the crafting of alchemical items (acid flasks, thunderstones etc.) require magical skill on the part of the creator? The text states that the effect is handled as if a spell, right after referring to mundane liquids that require no magical talent to create. Also, how do higher damage effect acid flasks (and similar) interact with the rogue's grenadier talent? It appears that combining the two could result in some tremendous damage.


Psisquared wrote:

I have two rules questions/clarifications

1. (a) Can the Summoner sorcerer variant get any class synergy from other classes or racial classes? Most entries for synergy from other classes specify bloodline powers/resistances, but the Summoner description states somewhat emphatically that the Summoner's Eidolon and other features is not a bloodline.
(b) Also, the Greater Aspect power calls out evolution points, but it looks like the Eidolon is now customized by CR +1 additions. Similarly, in the feats section, evolution points are still referenced.

2. Alchemy Skill: (a) Does the crafting of alchemical items (acid flasks, thunderstones etc.) require magical skill on the part of the creator? The text states that the effect is handled as if a spell, right after referring to mundane liquids that require no magical talent to create.
(b) Also, how do higher damage effect acid flasks (and similar) interact with the rogue's grenadier talent? It appears that combining the two could result in some tremendous damage.

1. (a) I would probably allow it. While technically not a bloodline, the eidolon & abilities are an analogous class feature. A note in the Summoer text clarifying that is probably in order.

(b) Thanks for the heads-up. I'll check those and see if the text needs to be corrected or merely excised.

2. (a) No. The KF general Craft rules supersede the Pathfinder ones, and do not specify any actual spellcasting ability as a requirement:

Chapter 4 wrote:

Masterwork and Magical Items: The rules for masterwork items and magical items are the same. Costs for enhancement bonuses, for working in special materials, etc. are provided in Chapter 6 (masterwork and special items also count against your maximum numen, as described in that chapter). Unless otherwise noted, creation of expendable items requires 1 hour per 250 gp base value (8 hours/day of work maximum), expenditure of materials equal to half that cost, and an applicable Craft check.

The creation of most magic items requires an appropriate Craft skill (see below), with a number of ranks equal to the caster level prerequisite. Single-use items can be created using the appropriate skill and [effective] caster level. Permanent items also require the Imbue Item feat. Unlike in the core rules, in which the item crafter begins with a normal masterwork item, these rules assume that the crafting of the item, and the imbuing of magic into it, are part of the same process. Imbuing a pre-existing item is still possible, but adds 50% to the total crafting time, as much of the initial work must be modified or undone first.

Re-reading this, I would actually delete the text about caster level entirely. This is echoed more specifically in the Imbue Item feat:

Chapter 5 wrote:

Special: For characters without spellcasting ability, certain talents and feats can be substituted for spell prerequisites. Obvious examples include Weapon Specialization or weapon training in lieu of a greater magic weapon spell; armor training in lieu of magic vestment; the Shared Shield feat in lieu of shield other when crafting a defending weapon, etc. It is also possible to waive spell requirements by substituting exotic components. For example, a flaming sword might be made by quenching the newly-forged blade in the blood of a living salamander, rather than casting one of the listed fire spells.

In all cases, your maximum effective caster level and effective spell capacity cannot exceed your number of ranks in the appropriate Craft skill, so that the maximum spell level of spell effects (Chapter 8) in items you craft is equal to half your number of ranks in the appropriate Craft skill (a character with 6 ranks in Craft (alchemy) can potentially use the blood of a displacer beast to brew a potion of displacement; a character with fewer ranks than that cannot).

2.(b) They do stack, and yes, you can produce ungodly piles of damage that way. However, by the time you accumulate high sneak attack dice, and enough mojo to stockpile high-damage flasks, monsters and NPCs usually have energy resistance either always on or else easily available.


OK, fixed a bunch of summoner text:

Summoner wrote:
Class Features: Summoners are treated as standard sorcerers except as specifically noted (as shown in Table C, they do not receive many of the class features gained by the standard sorcerer or battle sorcerer). The lack of a bloodline or martial path means that you gain no bloodline/wudan arcana, eldritch blast, eldritch resistances, or bonus feats. However, class synergy features that would normally improve bloodline abilities do apply when determining your eidolon’s total CR, and for determining class level-dependent effects of your other class features.
Summoner wrote:

Aspect (Su): Starting at 10th level, you can temporarily “borrow” one +1 CR template from your eidolon. In essence, you gain that template, and the eidolon loses it. The transfer requires a full round, during which time your eidolon must remain with you, and lasts until your eidolon is dismissed, slain, or otherwise sent back to its home plane.

Greater Aspect (Su): At 18th level, you can divert more of your eidolon's evolutions to yourself. This ability functions as the aspect ability, but up to +2 CR worth of templates can be taken.

Also cleared up some "the you" references left over from early editing.


Kaouse wrote:
Hey, Kirth. I was looking through the Beastiary for an encounter I could throw at my party, and I kind of noticed that the Kirthfinder Beastiary seems to be lacking in Undead creatures. Are they somewhere else, or are you still working on that section like you are on the Combat Chapter?

Working on undead now. Following standardized rules (similar to those for aberrations, constructs, oozes, etc.), mohrgs are now freaking scary, and come out to CR 6 rather than 8.

Spoiler:
MOHRG (CR 6)
Advanced undead 3
CE Medium undead
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +23
---
AC 21, touch 17, flat-footed 17
(+4 Dex, +3 dodge, +3 natural)
hp 102 (12 HD)
Immune undead traits
Fort +7, Ref +7, Int +6, Will +9
---
Spd: 30 ft.
Melee: 2 slams +13 (1d4+5 plus 3d6 negative energy and grab) and
tongue +8 touch (3d4 Dex, DC 20)
Base Atk: +8; CMB +13 (grapple +17); CMD 30
Special Atks: constrict (2d6+7), create spawn
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th, capacity 6th)
3/day—negative energy burst (10d6, DC 17)
At will—deadly grasp*, swift haste
---
Attributes: Str 21, Dex 19, Con -, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 18
Feats: Command Undead(B) (CR 16), Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Perception), Skirmish, Vital Strike
Skills: Acrobatics (12/+16), Athletics (12/+20), Concentration (12/+19), Knowledge (planes) (12/+16), Perception (12/+23), Stealth (12/+19)
---
Environment: any
Frequency: uncommon
Organization: solitary, gang (2–4), or mob (2–4 plus 0-32 fast zombies per mohrg)
Treasure: standard
---
Create Spawn (Su): Humanoid creatures killed by a mohrg rise immediately as fast zombies under the mohrg's control (subject to its Command Undead limits).
Tongue (Su): damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Augment Spell (+2d4; +2 levels) + Concentration Spell (swift action; +3 levels) = 6th level.
Deadly Grasp (Sp): Ray of entropy (1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close to touch; -1 level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 1st level.
Negative Energy Burst (Sp): ray of entropy (1st level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +3 levels) + Reach Spell (close to personal; -1 level) = 3rd level; damage cap 10d6.


Been out of the loop for quite a while, people still emailing copies of the system?


Check Kirth's profile for This link


Firewarrior44 wrote:
Check Kirth's profile for This link

yeah every time I back out of a page it disappears


Firewarrior44 wrote:
Check Kirth's profile for This link

I noticed that Chapter 7 isn't included anywhere in here, which I guess has the new rules for saves, action economy, and other stuff, because I can't find that info anywhere anymore.


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I think that's still a work in progress


For all the people asking over and over (and over and over and over) when the Combat chapter will be ready...

Good news at last! -- the first draft is done and I should be able to upload it this weekend. I suspect there won't be too many surprises in it, though.

Other news:

  • I'm largely done with undead and should be able to post a folder full of them soon!
  • I'm fixing some clunky seeds and math errors in the Spells chapter and am vastly expanding the Grimoire (172 pp. and counting).
  • Alchemical items and poisons have been broken out, along with many of the weapon and armor properties and special materials from Chapter 6, to form the nucleus of what I eventually hope to make into a magic items compendium.
  • I'm (very slowly) cleaning up feats, and changing references throughout all the documents from being spelled out to being simple superscript letters, with a key in the Intro. This actually reduces page count by a surprising amount, for people who like dead tree documents.
  • I'm out of the hospital, so hopefully I can be a bit more responsive now.


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    Oh wow didn't know you were in the hospital. Hope you're doing well!


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    Hanging in there!

    Ch 7 and slightly revised Ch 8 uploaded.


    wynterknight wrote:
    I noticed that Chapter 7 isn't included anywhere in here, which I guess has the new rules for saves, action economy, and other stuff, because I can't find that info anywhere anymore.

    Action economy is in there. Saves are, and have been, in Ch 1.


    People perusing the combat chapter will notice that Two-Weapon Fighting has finally been reconciled with primary/secondary natural attacks, merged into a single set of rules. This will necessitate some work on the Bestiary on my part, in order to avoid handing out free bonus feats all over the place the way the Pathfinder rules seem to do. (The long and short of it is that primary/secondary natural attacks, as in 3.5, should be the default, whereas primary/primary ones as in PF are a function of TWF and ITWF.)


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    wynterknight wrote:
    I noticed that Chapter 7 isn't included anywhere in here, which I guess has the new rules for saves, action economy, and other stuff, because I can't find that info anywhere anymore.
    Action economy is in there. Saves are, and have been, in Ch 1.

    Yeah, I just found the saves yesterday. I don't know how I missed that part the other umpty-seven times I checked, sorry! I also went and read back through this thread some more and saw a few folks had already asked about Chapter 7, so I should've checked that before posting.

    Also, I'm sorry to hear you were in the hospital. I hope you're doing well!


    A few questions and things about the Rogue:

    1) Improved and Greater Sneak Attack abilities say they allow you to sneak attack cowering and blinded targets, but you should already be able to do that because those conditions deny Dex to AC.
    2) Do skill tricks qualify you for Reserve feats? They're marked as spell-like abilities (Sp) so I think the answer is yes, but they seem different enough from other spell-like abilities that I want to check.
    3) Similarly, can you apply feats like Piercing Evocation or Spell Focus to skill tricks?
    4) Can you learn extra skill tricks via the Expanded Arcana feat?
    5) I just really really like skill tricks.


    I've also got a couple of questions about spellcasting in this new action system:

    1) Can you use Sleight of Hand to reduce the Material/Focus action from a partial (move) action to a swift or free action?
    2) If you for some reason have a spell with a Material or Focus component but no verbal or somatic component, does it only cost a partial (move) action to cast? I think the answer is no, because given that logic a spell with no components would cost no actions to cast, but at the same time the way it's worded leaves that interpretation open.


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    wynterknight wrote:

    A few questions and things about the Rogue:

    1) Improved and Greater Sneak Attack abilities say they allow you to sneak attack cowering and blinded targets, but you should already be able to do that because those conditions deny Dex to AC.
    2) Do skill tricks qualify you for Reserve feats? They're marked as spell-like abilities (Sp) so I think the answer is yes, but they seem different enough from other spell-like abilities that I want to check.
    3) Similarly, can you apply feats like Piercing Evocation or Spell Focus to skill tricks?
    4) Can you learn extra skill tricks via the Expanded Arcana feat?
    5) I just really really like skill tricks.

    1) Thanks -- I seriously need to finish the glossary pronto. And then start actually referring to it!

    2) Tricky, because they don't actually get expended. Then again, at-will SLAs qualify, so why shouldn't skill tricks? Personally, I'd let them.
    3) Yes, but they'd be higher level (for the former).
    4) Yes -- there's even precedent, IIRC, in that some of the critters in the Bestiary do that.
    5) Thank you! Me, too. They're my favorite thing about the KF rogue (Initially I tried to sell the home group on making rogues casters like bards, was near-unanimously shot down, and then re-introduced the same idea as skill tricks, which everyone loved. Go figure!)


    wynterknight wrote:

    1) Can you use Sleight of Hand to reduce the Material/Focus action from a partial (move) action to a swift or free action?

    2) If you for some reason have a spell with a Material or Focus component but no verbal or somatic component, does it only cost a partial (move) action to cast? I think the answer is no, because given that logic a spell with no components would cost no actions to cast, but at the same time the way it's worded leaves that interpretation open.

    1) That was the intent, making this a very attractive option for Illusionists in particular. However, see comments under (2), below.

    2) No, you are correct. I need to add something like, "The verbal and/or somatic components of a spell require a standard action. If neither applies (e.g., a sorcerer casting a Stilled spell), this step requires a partial action rather than a standard action."

    I'll also add a disclaimer like, "In no event can more than two spells (one standard, one Quickened) ever be cast in a single round, no matter what options are used. However, in the event that spells can be cast so as to leave one or more partial actions remaining to the caster, those actions can still be taken to move, make weapon attack(s), or whatever."

    Finally, note that the text regarding casting spells in combat in Chapter 8 somewhat contradicts the text here:
    (7) Material/Focus = partial; Verbal/Somatic = standard;
    (8) Material/Somatic = partial; Verbal/Activation = standard.

    I'm still kind of torn as to which I prefer; playtesting is needed, and I've lost most of my playtesters.


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    Question what is the action economy of a level 1 commoner?

    Move Partial actions: 1 (1 base, +0 bonus)
    Partial Actions In a Standard Action: 1
    Immediate Actions: None

    Total: 2 partial action (1 reserved for "move" actions exclusively)

    or

    Move Partial actions: 1 (0 base, +0 bonus)
    Partial Actions In a Standard Action: 1
    Immediate Actions: None

    Total: 1 partial Action


    The second is correct:

  • He has no bonus move action.
  • He has no immediate actions.
  • His standard action is comprised of only 1 partial action.

    He has one partial action.

    Note that the same is true of a 1st level wizard, which means all your standard casting time spells are going off during your 2nd turn -- which means you REALLY need the fighter to guard you.


  • So until one acquires the skirmisher feat (or spring attack it's one of those two) the only way to move at full speed and strike is to utilize the rush action.

    Are the Run Withdraw and Charge actions (all full round actions) Still the same (move 4x/2x speed) despite the overall decrease in speed?


    I swear dimension door used to be in the rogue's list of skill tricks, but i don't see it anymore. Is there a reason it was removed?


    Also while I have your ear I have 2 more questions

    1. Sp and Su abilities. Normally Sp and Su abilities have no components (Somatic, Verbal, Material or Focus). Has this changed?

    "Spellcasting in combat: Spell-Like and supernatural Abilities" page 6 seems to allude to them now having somatic's but does not outright state it. (this might be stated elsewhere and I've missed it), could you provide some clarity on this? I.e do they still follow the core rules on special abilities

    1.And a thing about Aoo's I think I may have found an error (or just slightly confusing language) In "Griddless Combat: How do Attacks of Opportunity work?" page 13 it says:

    "Moving into or out of an enemy’s threatened area (see Reach, above) provokes an attack of opportunity as normal"

    This is contrary to core aoo rules (in which only the act of leaving a threatened area provokes when moving) Has this changed and does approaching a foe now provoke as well?


    Firewarrior44 wrote:
    So until one acquires the skirmisher feat (or spring attack it's one of those two) the only way to move at full speed and strike is to utilize the rush action.

    At BAB +6 you can use your bonus move action to take a half-move, use one of your partial actions to half-move, and still attack once. Or, yes, take the Skirmish feat and use your bonus move action to move, then attack twice.

    Firewarrior44 wrote:
    Are the Run Withdraw and Charge actions (all full round actions) Still the same (move 4x/2x speed) despite the overall decrease in speed?

    Charge is spelled out; it's just an attack you make at the end of a rush.

    Run works similarly to the way it did, but it's in the skills section (Ch 4 -- see Athletics) because you're normally doing a lot of running out of combat, and doing more tactical movement in combat. (I suppose a 6th level fighter could use all 3 partial actions to rush, for example, and end up moving 3x his speed in combat on his turn, and still be able to make attacks of opportunity -- or he could just use the run option of the Athletics skill, and move 4-5x his normal speed in the round and not even try to do any fighting in the meantime.)

    Withdraw... did that not make it into the Combat chapter? Bad job, Kirth! I can only apologize that I've been more than a little distracted between losing my home, my father, and my health all right in a row, so that rushing out an unfinished chapter probably wasn't the best idea. But people kept asking for it!


    If I recall correctly, you playtest with a live group, correct? I'm stuck up in the PNW, and would love to actually play KF instead of just drooling over the rules elements... Unfortunately, it's hard enough finding a group that likes rules enough to play 5E, let alone anything more complicated.
    And my sympathies on your recent troubles.


    I might be able to convince my online group to play if/when our current Campaign concludes. But I have no idea how soon in the future that will be.

    +1 to Sympathies. You have my gratitude for continuing to work on this.


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    River of Sticks wrote:
    If I recall correctly, you playtest with a live group, correct?

    My original playtest group (including TOZ, if you've seen him on the boards) went from 2008 to 2012 or so; you can see an online summary of the campaign HERE.

    On returning to Houston, I had another throughout 2015, that ended due to RL scheduling problems with the various players. I am, sadly, currently without a live game, but then again I have a 3-year-old that demands my weekend time.

    I slso had a PBP campaign that went from 2011-2016, and of course the current one, that started in 2014.

    River of Sticks wrote:
    I'm stuck up in the PNW, and would love to actually play KF instead of just drooling over the rules elements... Unfortunately, it's hard enough finding a group that likes rules enough to play 5E, let alone anything more complicated.

    I feel for you!

    River of Sticks wrote:
    And my sympathies on your recent troubles.

    Many thanks.


    Firewarrior44 wrote:
    1. Sp and Su abilities. Normally Sp and Su abilities have no components (Somatic, Verbal, Material or Focus). Has this changed?

    Yes -- they now have somatics, unless Stilled, etc.

    Ch 7 states that overtly, not by allusion: "Treat the activation of a spell-like or supernatural ability as the casting of a spell by a sorcerer. Spell-like abilities therefore do not have material components, but do generally have somatic components..."

    Firewarrior44 wrote:

    2. And a thing about Aoo's I think I may have found an error (or just slightly confusing language) In "Griddless Combat: How do Attacks of Opportunity work?" page 13 it says: "Moving into or out of an enemy’s threatened area (see Reach, above) provokes an attack of opportunity as normal"

    This is contrary to core aoo rules (in which only the act of leaving a threatened area provokes when moving) Has this changed and does approaching a foe now provoke as well?

    There's not actually a contradiction as much as a simplification. In 3.5/PF, if your opponent has greater reach, and you want to move up and hit him, you end up entering one of his threatened squares (no AoO), then leaving it to get close enough to hit him (provokes AoO). With no grid, you just move up and hit him. But that does entail moving through his threatened area, so there it is.


    wynterknight wrote:
    I swear dimension door used to be in the rogue's list of skill tricks, but i don't see it anymore. Is there a reason it was removed?

    I'm having the same problem. Weird.

    In any event, I need to overhaul all the spells lists now that a coherent spell construction system is in place.

    One of my more ambitious goals is to change the menu of fixed options for domain powers, mysteries, etc. to "build-your-own" theme powers using the Ch 8 rules (using the existing powers as examples), but that's a long way off.


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    Kirth Gersen wrote:


    Withdraw... did that not make it into the Combat chapter? Bad job, Kirth! I can only apologize that I've been more than a little distracted between losing my home, my father, and my health all right in a row, so that rushing out an unfinished chapter probably wasn't the best idea. But people kept asking for it!

    Dude...you need to take care of yourself. If you have issues you need to handle, then just let us know. Take as much time as you need to get things in check. We just want the best for you.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Kaouse wrote:
    Kirth Gersen wrote:


    Withdraw... did that not make it into the Combat chapter? Bad job, Kirth! I can only apologize that I've been more than a little distracted between losing my home, my father, and my health all right in a row, so that rushing out an unfinished chapter probably wasn't the best idea. But people kept asking for it!
    Dude...you need to take care of yourself. If you have issues you need to handle, then just let us know. Take as much time as you need to get things in check. We just want the best for you.

    Yep take care of yourself man. Prayers and condolences for everything going on.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    wynterknight wrote:
    I swear dimension door used to be in the rogue's list of skill tricks, but i don't see it anymore. Is there a reason it was removed?

    I'm having the same problem. Weird.

    In any event, I need to overhaul all the spells lists now that a coherent spell construction system is in place.

    One of my more ambitious goals is to change the menu of fixed options for domain powers, mysteries, etc. to "build-your-own" theme powers using the Ch 8 rules (using the existing powers as examples), but that's a long way off.

    I love the standardized spell building system, but I've got a few questions.

    1) Polymorph specifies that each form (animal, humanoid, etc) is a different seed spell, and Damage Attribute also specifies different seed spells per attribute. Does the same thing apply to Attribute Boost, Detection, Hedge, and Warding? AB says you choose which attribute is boosted when you learn the spell (bull's strength, cat's grace, etc), but I'm unclear on whether that means you have to learn AB (strength) and AB (dex) if you want to, say, cascade those spells with a Polymorph spell, or if you can just learn a single AB and then cascade it once per attribute you want to boost. Likewise with Detection, do you need to learn Detection (thoughts) and Detection (magic) to build up various spells via metamagic, or can you just decide what you want to detect when you actually build the final metamagicked Detection spell?
    2) The Elemental Body I spell in the grimoire uses the Variable spell modifier, but none of the other Elemental Body spells do. Is that on purpose? Form Of The Dragon doesn't require the Variable effect, and it seems like the other Polymorph spells only use it to change between creature types (animal vs magical beast, Polymorph self that lets you do whatever, etc.)
    3) What schools do the Damage Attribute seeds fall under? I'm guessing mental attributes are Enchantment and physical ones are Necromancy, but I can't find that anywhere.
    4) I don't know that I understand the section under the Cascade Spell feat about specialist wizards. When you say "barred school restrictions for the other component spells still apply," does that just mean that, say, an Evoker can cast a cold based Elemental Aura that incorporates the "Touch Of Fatigue" Enchantment effect, even though they can't cast Touch Of Fatigue directly (or build the Elemental Touch/cold spell themselves, since they can't learn that seed)? Or are they just barred from casting that version of Elemental Aura altogether?

    Also, I know I just asked a bunch of questions, but I echo the others here in saying that if your life is that crazy right now, I don't want to add to your stress. I personally find editing and rule crunching to be therapeutic, but obviously I'm not everybody and I'd rather you take care of yourself than worry about more stuff.


    wynterknight wrote:


    1) Polymorph specifies that each form (animal, humanoid, etc) is a different seed spell, and Damage Attribute also specifies different seed spells per attribute. Does the same thing apply to Attribute Boost, Detection, Hedge, and Warding? AB says you choose which attribute is boosted when you learn the spell (bull's strength, cat's grace, etc), but I'm unclear on whether that means you have to learn AB (strength) and AB (dex) if you want to, say, cascade those spells with a Polymorph spell, or if you can just learn a single AB and then cascade it once per attribute you want to boost.

    The intent behind the "choose when learned/prepared" was that a prepared caster would know, for example, detection, but would then have to prepare detect magic or detect poison or whatever -- or else take the Variable Spell feat and prepare Variable detection as a 3rd spell (and be stuck with Close range, etc., unless further modified). Spontaneous casters are more like walking staves: they just learn, for example, detect magic. Conceivably, they could instead learn Variable detection, but again, that would be a 3rd level spell.

    wynterknight wrote:
    The Elemental Body I spell in the grimoire uses the Variable spell modifier, but none of the other Elemental Body spells do. Is that on purpose?

    Look at the parentheses. The variable in EBI is your option to pick either attribute boost or enhancement, but not both. EBII gets them both, so no variable applies there.

    wynterknight wrote:
    What schools do the Damage Attribute seeds fall under? I'm guessing mental attributes are Enchantment and physical ones are Necromancy, but I can't find that anywhere.

    Any time something isn't specifically spelled out but is instead left as "as appropriate," that's a cue for case-by-case agreement between player and referee. That potentially provides a lot more flexibility for the player, in light of the response to #4, below.

    wynterknight wrote:
    4) I don't know that I understand the section under the Cascade Spell feat about specialist wizards. When you say "barred school restrictions for the other component spells still apply," does that just mean that, say, an Evoker can cast a cold based Elemental Aura that incorporates the "Touch Of Fatigue" Enchantment effect, even though they can't cast Touch Of Fatigue directly (or build the Elemental Touch/cold spell themselves, since they can't learn that seed)? Or are they just barred from casting that version of Elemental Aura altogether?

    The latter. The fragment you snipped refers to the text above:

    Cascade Spell wrote:
    When cascading spells of different schools, neither can be a barred school for the caster, or else the entire spell fails.

    , which was as clear as I could make it. If you can't use Enchantments, you can't cascade them into your other spells, and you can't cast spells that incorporate Enchantment components. The only way around this is to use the Spell Reprieve feat (Ch 5), or to add the Cross-Class Spell feat to the seed in order to change its school (of course, this also raises the spell level).

    On the plus side, if you cascade a bunch of spells from permitted schools, and one of them happens to be your specialist school, you can treat the entire final spell as being in your specialist school.


    I was looking for the list of source book abbreviations, which the section on rogue tricks says is in Chapter 7 (and used to be included in that section itself), but Chapter 7 is Combat and Chapter 8 doesn't seem to include it either.


    Arakhor wrote:
    I was looking for the list of source book abbreviations, which the section on rogue tricks says is in Chapter 7 (and used to be included in that section itself), but Chapter 7 is Combat and Chapter 8 doesn't seem to include it either.

    I moved it from 8 to 1, because of the wider use. The list at present is as follows:

    Spoiler:
    REFERENCES
    These house rules draw heavily on their predecessor games, particularly 3.0/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons and their Paizo derivative, Pathfinder, Where those sources are referenced, the following abbreviations (generally shown as superscripts) are used. If your group does not own the source cited, substitute an appropriate ability instead of the one listed.

    From Paizo Publishing: AA = Adventurer’s Armory; ACG = Advanced Class Guide; APG = Advanced Player’s Guide; ARG = Advanced Race Guide; BotD = Book of the Damned; CMR = Classic Monsters Revisited; CRB = Pathfinder Core Rulebook; DG = Dwarves of Golarion; Dr# = Dragon Magazine (and issue); DrAn = Dragon magazine annual (and volume); HA = Horror Adventures; ISWG = Inner Sea World Guide; MA= Mythic Adventures; MC = Monster Codex; OcA = Occult Adventures; PB = Pathfinder Bestiary (and number); PC = Pathfinder Companion and Chronicles volumes; PF# = Pathfinder Adventure Path (and volume number); PoP = Paths of Prestige; TG = Technology Guide; UC = Ultimate Combat; UE = Ultimate Equipment; UM = Ultimate Magic.

    From TSR: FTA = From the Ashes; GA = Greyhawk Adventures; LBMM = Land beyond the Magic Mirror; TM2 = 2nd edition Tome of Magic; PH1 = 1st edition AD&D Players Handbook; UA1 = 1st edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana.

    From Wizards of the Coast: AEG = Arms and Equipment Guide; BED = Book of Exalted Deeds; BVD = Book of Vile Darkness; CA = Complete Arcane; CAd = Complete Adventurer; CC = Complete Champion; CD = Complete Divine; CM = Complete Mage; CoR = Champions of Ruin; CSc = Complete Scoundrel; CW = Complete Warrior; CW = Complete Warrior; DN = Draconomicon; DU = Drow of the Underdark; ECS = Eberron Campaign Setting; EE = Exemplars of Evil; ELH = Epic Level Handbook; EPH = Expanded Psionics Handbook; FB = Frostburn; FC = Fiendish Codex; FoE = Faiths of Eberron; FR = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting; GW = Ghostwalk; HB = Heroes of Battle; HH = Heroes of Horror; LEF = Lost Empires of Faerun; LM = Libris Mortis; LoM = Lords of Madness; ME = Magic of Eberron; MF = Magic of Faerun; MH = Miniatures Handbook; MI = Magic of Incarnum; MIC = Magic Item Compendium; MP = Manual of the Planes; MW = Masters of the Wild; OA = Oriental Adventures; PGF = Players Guide to Faerun; PHII = Players Handbook II; PnH = Planar Handbook; RD = Races of Destiny; RF = Races of Faerun; RS = Races of Stone; RW = Races of the Wild; SBG = Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook; SC = Spell Compendium; ShS = Shining South; SRD = 3.5 edition System Reference Document; SSt = Sandstorm; SW = Stormwrack; S&F = Sword and Fist; ToB = Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords; UE = Unapproachable East; Und = Underdark; WCS = Waterdeep: City of Splendors; WotC = Wizards of the Coast web site.

    From Other Publishers: AEST = Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury (Malhavoc Press); AGG = Advanced Gamemasters Guide (Green Ronin); AH = Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games); AotD = Art of the Duel (Sinister Adventures LLC); APM = Advanced Players Manual (Green Ronin); AU = Arcana Unearthed (Malhavoc Press); AUG = Arcana Unearthed Grimoire (Malhavoc Press); BEM = Book of Eldritch Might (Malhavoc Press); BHM = Book of Hallowed Might (Malhavoc Press); CBEM = Collected Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press); CH = Cavalier’s Handbook (Green Ronin); IH = Iron Heroes (Fiery Dragon Publishing); RR = Relics & Rituals (Sword & Sorcery Studios); RRE = Relics & Rituals: Excalibur (Sword & Sorcery Studios); RRO = Relics & Rituals: Olympus (Sword & Sorcery Studios); WW = Warrior’s Way (Sinister Adventures LLC).


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    which was as clear as I could make it

    ... yep, it doesn't get much clearer than that sentence (clearly emphasized by a bullet point, even.) Thanks so much for the responses!

    What were your wizard players' reactions to not getting any free spells known as they leveled up? I haven't done the math yet, but it seems like you either have to spend a ton of money on spells (way more than core costs), or spend every feat you get on metamagic feats. Did it work out okay in play?


    It's roughly 40% of a wizards Wealth at level 9 to have an extra 2/4/4/4/4 Spells known, the base known for a Pathfinder wizard is 14,400 nu. So it's not insignificant.

    HOWEVER that Being Said that is roughly the equivalent to a Fighter Having a +3 Weapon ~18,000 nu.

    So yea it sucks but it's basically the same crap characters that actually need tools to function have to put up with imo.

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