Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew

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Let's assume CR 12 is legit, then. I stat up an 11th level NPC villain (CR 10) and assign him a pair of them, which is within his gear limit as an 11th level NPC. Still a CR 10 encounter?

(A 12th level PC can afford 13 of them, and still be within WBL.)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Why would you call the NPC the encounter in that case, rather than the two CR12 dragons? Also, why would the NPC spend all of his wealth on two such dragons?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Why would you call the NPC the encounter in that case, rather than the two CR12 dragons?

I would not, but the Bestiary 5 does, by making them commodities.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Also, why would the NPC spend all of his wealth on two such dragons?

Dunno -- do they make him 5x more powerful? I would!

Grand Lodge

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Do they make HIM more powerful? Really? Or does it leave him with far less equipment to survive with, should his pets be evaded?

Not that any of the answers change the reality of 'the designers do not use CR the way you think they should'.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Not that any of the answers change the reality of 'the designers do not use CR the way you think they should'.

I would actually phrase it "The designers do not use CR in any way that I can begin to comprehend." Then again, you seem to feel it's not only reasonable, but entirely proper. From our past interaction, I know you're at least as smart as I am -- probably more so -- so it may well be that my brain simply isn't up to the task here.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I don't think I've ever claimed the designers are reasonable. They are only human after all. :P


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;D

Have I said lately that I miss you? Let me say it again.


Hey guys,

I've liked kirthfinder for a long time and since I exclusively play online I started making a sheet. It's not pretty but it makes my job a lot easier.

Here are some examples of what it does:

Calculate Attribute Modifiers, AC, CMD, Attack, CMB and Saving Throws.
Applies AC, ACP and max Dex from equipped armor and shields (which you can also unequip)
Applies the light and heavy Wound modifiers and can apply temporary Attribute buffs without changing the original field.
Calculates skills including ACP, Attributes and Class Skills.
Apply Size modifiers.

And here is my current todo list:
A checkbox for Weapon Finesse
Calculate and fill in the numen fields based on Character level
Improve how Size modifiers are handled

And a download link Google Drive

Hope someone finds this useful.


So kirth a question would using the Numen system translate well over to regular PF?


Talonhawke wrote:
So kirth a question would using the Numen system translate well over to regular PF?

I think so, if you ported the entire thing. A lot of APs load you down with vast amounts of crap gear, assuming you'll sell it for half cost and buy stuff you actually want with it, so you'd need to be pretty strict about enforcing the max. limit, since people will already have the gear they want.


admittedly on the topic of conversion, I had a question of my own with it, but also know that it's not really a question for the KF forum... Despite this I'm going to ask anyway.

How would one go about converting the classes of the various Spheres systems into Kirthfinder? I mean I at least know some of it, but most of it is up in the air

What I know for sure
1: figure out Intuition Saves
2: for Technician and to a lesser extent a number of other pieces one would have to redo guns AGAIN because of the Improved firearm abilities it somewhat relies on how guns are done now (one improvement reduces Misfire chance; improved rifling doubles and Railgun Triples the range increment, which considering I was making that range equal to crossbows that is some absolutely massive range.)


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So kirth a question would using the Numen system translate well over to regular PF?
I think so, if you ported the entire thing. A lot of APs load you down with vast amounts of crap gear, assuming you'll sell it for half cost and buy stuff you actually want with it, so you'd need to be pretty strict about enforcing the max. limit, since people will already have the gear they want.

Okay thanks. My main concern was actually divorcing GP and Items so it seems we should be fine.


Talonhawke wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So kirth a question would using the Numen system translate well over to regular PF?
I think so, if you ported the entire thing. A lot of APs load you down with vast amounts of crap gear, assuming you'll sell it for half cost and buy stuff you actually want with it, so you'd need to be pretty strict about enforcing the max. limit, since people will already have the gear they want.
Okay thanks. My main concern was actually divorcing GP and Items so it seems we should be fine.

Also not to end up getting hatred for it but I will admit that I both Absolutely adore and have an issue with divorcing gold from magic items... I feel like Economy is somewhat important in any setting, and the idea that there's a certain point by which characters literally have no need for gold anymore seems like something really weird. I mean a ADORE the numen system and the idea that heroes gain their magical enhancements naturally through themselves instead of just throwing more money at their problems, but something still seems off


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Don't think of it that way - the heroes still need gold for their horses feed, their troops, the castle back home, the tenants they support. Artwork, balls, new clothes. Lots of things to spend gold on. They just aren't magical, mechanical (in game terms) improvements to the character that affect their power level. Numen represents that magic is rare (EDIT: Trading magic, not necessarily the existence of it END EDIT) and not commonly available - it's a different currency that the magically elite can use.


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Exactly one of the reasons I fell in love with was that characters can spend lavish money on things like a house or servants or even things like a ship without hurting their WBL growth.


River of Sticks wrote:
Don't think of it that way - the heroes still need gold for their horses feed, their troops, the castle back home, the tenants they support. Artwork, balls, new clothes. Lots of things to spend gold on. They just aren't magical, mechanical (in game terms) improvements to the character that affect their power level. Numen represents that magic is rare (EDIT: Trading magic, not necessarily the existence of it END EDIT) and not commonly available - it's a different currency that the magically elite can use.

I guess that's true, I just didn't really know if there was even really any way to track money after numen became the main currency, thanks for the clarification on that.

Also, I recently read PF Unchained (had only looked at the classes previously) and was suddenly quite interested in the Dynamic Magic Item creation system.. I was thinking of using it when I get a KF campaign together but see one minor issue. Numen makes it that players can toss aside magic items like candy to the point that if they get enough flaws or extra costs to their numen total they would probably just throw it out and try again. How would you use this in KF?


Time investment. Sure you can discard a bad item, but you just sunk 4 weeks and possibly some plot/quest hooks into getting the materials and making the checks... time is not recoverable short of slowed-time planes, and if you have access to those for crafting in your game, why do you care about the game balance? (snark/sarcasm) Realistically, it all depends on the referee keeping the pacing where the story needs it to be. That's true regardless of the system.


I guess it's just my inexperience (and indirect experience) as a GM. I haven't really run all that much and my first experiences with tabletop was people going over build-talk, which ended up making the impression that all of the players I'll find are minmaxing munchkins trying to break the campaign into as gaping of a mess as they possibly can.

Also on your snarky "why do you care about balance" thing. I'd think that Kirthfinder players would be all over unchained with its options to give innate item bonuses (So that players aren't just all picking the main enhancement bonus items and make secondary not direct enhancement bonus items into primary choices), and a strong connection to the idea of how items are unique to the heroes (numen system allowing players to be able to just grab something and work it in a way to make it their magic weapon)


Also on the topic of crafting... what does crafting even do in KF? I mean in PF crafting your own reduced the price, but I don't know what such a thing would do here? Also it seems like the craft feats have been entirely removed from the rulebook


Crafting still "reduces" price by allowing you to exceed "par" on numen.

The snark was specifically in regards to having access to slow time or infinite time planes for crafting. That's a high level trick to game the system - need three months to make the uber weapon of doom to save the world next week? Planeshift to an infinite time plane, make the weapon, and still have time for tea. At that point balance is NOT held by anything material (gold/numen).


Ah, now I get the snark... And admittedly I hadn't thought of that. I guess you're right that the game breaking thing is more in player creativity than in the mechanics. I just wanted to make a bit of a double check to make sure.

I just like the idea of a variable crafting system because... Well not to be cheesy and steal something right out of the Unchained book but in fantasy and folklore part of the mystique of powerful weapons were the way they were forged. A hammer made from the core of a fallen star (though admittedly that's the Marvel version and the folklore version is less cool); the One Ring was forged in a Volcano, designed to be stronger in magic than any of the other Rings of Power; The hide of the Nemean Lion, which no blade could pierce being forged into hides for Heracles. Etc.


For some time I've been toying with the idea of reconciling evasion, mettle, etc. with Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, etc. Scaling feats really do lend themselves nicely to that sort of thing! An example:

IRON WILL [SKILL]
“John is a man of focus, commitment, sheer will.” ―John Wick (2014)

Your skill at intimidating others, and at avoiding the same, renders you resistant to compulsions and fear.
Prerequisite: Bluff 1 rank.
Benefit: You gain a +2 competence bonus to Will saves.

  • If you have at least 6 ranks in Bluff, if you make a successful Will saving throw against an attack that normally has reduced effects on a successful save, you instead suffer no ill effects. A helpless character does not gain this benefit.
  • If you have at least 11 ranks in Bluff, if you are affected by a spell or effect as a consequence of failing a Will save, you can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. You get only this one extra chance to succeed on the saving throw (unless the spell normally allows additional chances).
  • If you have at least 16 ranks in Bluff, you still suffer no effects on a successful Will saving throw against attacks, and also take only reduced effects on a failed save (as if a normal person had successfully saved).

    The rogue can still get "evasion" and so on, but I'd modify the wording:

    Evasion (Ex): A rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. At 2nd level, you gain Lighting Reflexes and Feat Mastery (Lightning Reflexes) as bonus feats. When determining the effects, you may use your class level in place of your number of ranks in Acrobatics, if that is more advantageous to you.

    Spoiler:
    In addition, you gain the following abilities:
  • When targeted by a ranged attack, you can choose to drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. You apply this bonus retroactively to the triggering attack. This ability supersedes the Gunslinger’s “leap for cover” class feature (UC).
  • When a swarm attacks you by ending its turn in your space, you may attempt a Reflex save to avoid damage (DC equal to the swarm’s distraction save DC + 10). If the save succeeds, you also avoid any poison, blood drain, or similar effects that normally result from damage by the swarm. If you also have improved evasion (q.v.), it also applies to swarm damage. You must still make a Fortitude save to avoid distraction if you begin your turn in a space occupied by a swarm. This supersedes the Swarm Dodger feat (PC).
  • And improved evasion:

    Spoiler:
    Starting at 10th level, in addition to the normal effects of your evasion, you gain the following:
  • If you succeed on a Reflex save against a spell or effect, you can choose to move out of the area of the spell or effect as an immediate action. You must take the shortest path available to you, and you can't move farther than your speed. If more than one path of equal distance is available, you can choose which path to use. If no such path is available, you can't use this ability. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for movement, and emulates the “evasive skitter” racial substitution feature (RDr).
  • Instead of taking a full move, you can choose to take a 5-ft. step and also make a Stealth check to hide. If the step moves you to into cover, the Stealth check can be made without penalty. This supersedes the Cunning Evasion feat (PHII).

  • Warriorking9001 wrote:
    I just like the idea of a variable crafting system because... Well not to be cheesy and steal something right out of the Unchained book but in fantasy and folklore part of the mystique of powerful weapons were the way they were forged. A hammer made from the core of a fallen star (though admittedly that's the Marvel version and the folklore version is less cool); the One Ring was forged in a Volcano, designed to be stronger in magic than any of the other Rings of Power; The hide of the Nemean Lion, which no blade could pierce being forged into hides for Heracles. Etc.

    That's more or less exactly what the numen and crafting systems are for.

    Straight numen, no crafting needed: "I skin the dire lion of legend using its own claws and wear its pelt -- no blade can pierce that hide!" (Herakles, in myth, does exactly what it is hoped that PCs will do in Kirthfinder.)

    With crafting: "I forge the ring in the huge volcano near my castle, which I now dub the Mountain of Eternal Hellfire. Never could I simply find or dream of creating such an item, but with my skill and this location, the normal limits of what would be possible are left far behind." (You've exceeded par and gone into overflow, which is the primary function of the Imbue Item feat.)

    Crafting, but you lack the prerequisites: "I have no power over thunder and lighting, but using the heart of a fallen star, I have forged a hammer that commands both." (You've used a component to make up for a prerequisite, which is something that Imbue Item specifically allows you to do in KF.)


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    I just like the idea of a variable crafting system because... Well not to be cheesy and steal something right out of the Unchained book but in fantasy and folklore part of the mystique of powerful weapons were the way they were forged. A hammer made from the core of a fallen star (though admittedly that's the Marvel version and the folklore version is less cool); the One Ring was forged in a Volcano, designed to be stronger in magic than any of the other Rings of Power; The hide of the Nemean Lion, which no blade could pierce being forged into hides for Heracles. Etc.

    That's more or less exactly what the numen and crafting systems are for.

    Straight numen, no crafting needed: "I skin the dire lion of legend using its own claws and wear its pelt -- no blade can pierce that hide!" (Herakles, in myth, does exactly what it is hoped that PCs will do in Kirthfinder.)

    With crafting: "I forge the ring in the huge volcano near my castle, which I now dub the Mountain of Eternal Hellfire. Never could I simply find or dream of creating such an item, but with my skill and this location, the normal limits of what would be possible are left far behind." (You've exceeded par and gone into overflow, which is the primary function of the Imbue Item feat.)

    Crafting, but you lack the prerequisites: "I have no power over thunder and lighting, but using the heart of a fallen star, I have forged a hammer that commands both." (You've used a component to make up for a prerequisite, which is something that Imbue Item specifically allows you to do in KF.)

    ah THAT's the name of the crafting feat... To be honest I just asked about crafting because I went to the feats chapter and was looking for something with the word 'craft' in it. Yeah I know that's dumb


    I think I heard word of Paizo using something similar to my idea of splitting up spellcasting components into different actions in Pathfinder 2E. Clearly Paizo frequents this thread for ideas to steal.


    Kaouse wrote:
    I think I heard word of Paizo using something similar to my idea of splitting up spellcasting components into different actions in Pathfinder 2E. Clearly Paizo frequents this thread for ideas to steal.

    I'd say that's crazy talk, until I look at the fact that Pathfinder was first designed as a recreation and improvement of D&D 3.5e in the first place. And I'd assume that the component action thing would be for the same purpose anyway, to nerf spellcasters since they need to spend 2 actions instead of one


    Also not to yabber about something that isn't related to the main KF experience but I have started to work on my own side to convert Spheres some... I would have kept to my own thread about this but that has died. Though I basically wanted to ask how things look so far on them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rLe0-Wr_nZo90UlJ8EJxFWjkvryvRtsVljyC6zk M3C8/edit?usp=sharing


    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Also not to yabber about something that isn't related to the main KF experience but I have started to work on my own side to convert Spheres some... I would have kept to my own thread about this but that has died. Though I basically wanted to ask how things look so far on them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rLe0-Wr_nZo90UlJ8EJxFWjkvryvRtsVljyC6zk M3C8/edit?usp=sharing

    Is that the proper link for sharing? Google says the file doesn't exist.


    Kaouse wrote:
    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Also not to yabber about something that isn't related to the main KF experience but I have started to work on my own side to convert Spheres some... I would have kept to my own thread about this but that has died. Though I basically wanted to ask how things look so far on them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rLe0-Wr_nZo90UlJ8EJxFWjkvryvRtsVljyC6zk M3C8/edit?usp=sharing
    Is that the proper link for sharing? Google says the file doesn't exist.

    Let's Try this again

    Transcendence of the Spheres

    I guess I'll also say my preliminary worry would be on the Mageknight page, since so far most of what I did was give it a bunch of new options based on its archetypes as a 'specialization'.

    Edit: and the other worry is coming up for changes for the other classes to make them worthy.


    Done with example characters illustrating tiers of play. I'll upload full stat blocks when I get a chance, but for now:

    Journeyman

  • Skeeve (Robert Asprin's "Myth" series), human (Klahd) destined bloodline sorcerer 4
  • Solomon Kane (Robert E. Howard), human fighter 1/cleric (inquisition and war domains) 1/ranger 1
  • Jarvis Braeburn (a favorite PC of mine), fighter 2/warrior 1/rogue 1

    Hero

  • Fafhrd (Fritz Leiber's "Swords" series), human bard (skald) 1/barbarian 4/fighter 3
  • The Gray Mouser (likewise), human wizard 1/rogue 4/fighter 3
  • Moana (Disney movie), Advanced human incarnate (waves) 7

    Champion

  • Lord Robilar (Rob Kuntz's Greyhawk PC), human fighter 15
  • Väinämöinen (Elias Lönnrot's Kalevala), human bard (minstrel) 5/wizard (water wu jen) 10

    Demigod

  • Cu Chulainn (Irish Tain Bo Cuailge), Advanced half-elf barbarian 10/fighter 5/bard (skald) 2
  • Elric of Melnibone (Michael Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" series), high elf sorcerer (summoner) 15/fighter 2


  • Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Kaouse wrote:
    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Also not to yabber about something that isn't related to the main KF experience but I have started to work on my own side to convert Spheres some... I would have kept to my own thread about this but that has died. Though I basically wanted to ask how things look so far on them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rLe0-Wr_nZo90UlJ8EJxFWjkvryvRtsVljyC6zk M3C8/edit?usp=sharing
    Is that the proper link for sharing? Google says the file doesn't exist.

    Let's Try this again

    Transcendence of the Spheres

    I guess I'll also say my preliminary worry would be on the Mageknight page, since so far most of what I did was give it a bunch of new options based on its archetypes as a 'specialization'.

    Edit: and the other worry is coming up for changes for the other classes to make them worthy.

    I don't think you should worry too much about "archetypes" since they don't really exist in Kirthfinder. Instead, I would rather just give the Mageknight some Mystic Combats that allow for easier multiclassing synergy. Like, instead of rebuilding the Dustbringer, just give the Mageknight a Mystic Combat that gives them Strong Synergy (and perhaps full theurgy) with Monks.

    This should save you a lot of time and effort, and should result in content that flows much more organically with the greater Kirthfinder project as a whole.


    Kaouse wrote:
    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Kaouse wrote:
    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Also not to yabber about something that isn't related to the main KF experience but I have started to work on my own side to convert Spheres some... I would have kept to my own thread about this but that has died. Though I basically wanted to ask how things look so far on them. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rLe0-Wr_nZo90UlJ8EJxFWjkvryvRtsVljyC6zk M3C8/edit?usp=sharing
    Is that the proper link for sharing? Google says the file doesn't exist.

    Let's Try this again

    Transcendence of the Spheres

    I guess I'll also say my preliminary worry would be on the Mageknight page, since so far most of what I did was give it a bunch of new options based on its archetypes as a 'specialization'.

    Edit: and the other worry is coming up for changes for the other classes to make them worthy.

    I don't think you should worry too much about "archetypes" since they don't really exist in Kirthfinder. Instead, I would rather just give the Mageknight some Mystic Combats that allow for easier multiclassing synergy. Like, instead of rebuilding the Dustbringer, just give the Mageknight a Mystic Combat that gives them Strong Synergy (and perhaps full theurgy) with Monks.

    This should save you a lot of time and effort, and should result in content that flows much more organically with the greater Kirthfinder project as a whole.

    I guess that's true. I just kinda took the archetype/specialization idea as that concept of 'you are particularly good with one magical form and using that in particular ways'

    For the Dustbringer example they gain full casting with Creation, can use your Destructive creation talents on living creatures by using a Mystic Combat (All is Matter) gain a passive destructive aura that threatens to break weapons they are struck with (with another mystic combat, Dustbringer's Aura), and spend a spell point to gain a 1d6 per creation caster level version of their destroy talent. Though admittedly I boiled this down to its barest essentials which makes it seem more like a simple synergy with monk fix.

    Also... not to make a really dumb assumption but I was assuming that these classes would need full reworks in order for them to be up to Kirthfinder power levels (seeing as Rangers get their own plane of reality in late levels, Fighters and rogues gain a whole guild, etc.)


    A question about Rogue Tricks, if I may. What is the difference between Expeditious Retreat and its Swift variant if all movement-related skill tricks need to be rechecked every round they're used?

    Moreover, if something like Jump needs to be checked every time the rogue wishes to gain the jump bonus, aren't you essentially doubling the number of rolls the rogue needs to make?


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    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Kirth Gersen wrote:


  • Moana (Disney movie), Advanced human incarnate (waves) 7

  • Ahh parenthood. How would you stat out Maui? Some combo of Fighter Druid?


    Jam412 wrote:
    Kirth Gersen wrote:


  • Moana (Disney movie), Advanced human incarnate (waves) 7

  • Ahh parenthood. How would you stat out Maui? Some combo of Fighter Druid?

    Only incarnate 7? I'd think that a character representing the primary goddess of the sea for a whole real world culture would be much higher level.


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    Keep in mind he is basing off the movie character so all applicable myths might not yet apply


    Talonhawke wrote:
    Keep in mind he is basing off the movie character so all applicable myths might not yet apply

    touche, I just mean that moana literally means 'large body of water' or 'ocean'. in that the goddess basically is the whole sea. Though I will concede that someone representing a minor oceanic demigod would fit Incarnate/Oracle perfectly


    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Only incarnate 7? I'd think that a character representing the primary goddess of the sea for a whole real world culture would be much higher level.

    At 7th level, Moana (the character) can do everything the character in the movie does. Likewise, at CR 14, Vainamoinen can do everything the character in the epic can do, despite that character ultimately being based on an Odin-like god. Very few real-world cultures even conceive of anyone who can do the things that high-level D&D characters routinely do (Irish myth being an obvious exception).

    "Only" 7th level is like saying Benedict of Amber is "only" a fighter. People in real life don't achieve 7th level -- 6th+ is reserved for legendary figures. 11th+, and you're into superhero territory (and Hulk at that, not Hawkeye). 16th+ is called "demigod" for a reason.


    Arakhor wrote:

    A question about Rogue Tricks, if I may. What is the difference between Expeditious Retreat and its Swift variant if all movement-related skill tricks need to be rechecked every round they're used?

    Moreover, if something like Jump needs to be checked every time the rogue wishes to gain the jump bonus, aren't you essentially doubling the number of rolls the rogue needs to make?

    Yeah... that doesn't work right, does it. Either all the movement ones should be swift ones, or else the longer-duration ones should take more actions to activate (you're warming up and doing jumping jacks, or whatever = somatic components).


    Jam412 wrote:
    Ahh parenthood. How would you stat out Maui? Some combo of Fighter Druid?

    He isn't even that great a fighter, and druids do get 3/4 BAB. Advanced wild shaper druid would probably do it -- maybe a couple of levels of fighter if you like. For the mythological figure, you'd probably want to stick with straight druid, though, so that you have the spell capacity to do all the stuff that the Rock brags about in his song.


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    I like the idea of giving the option - a swift action to check each round or a full-round somatic action for the longer affair.


    And... admittedly I'm still a bit confused on the converting spheres thing... Do I not actually need some big rewrite?


    Sorry if I kinda killed the thread or anything...

    I was only so confused about trying to do the whole conversion thing (and I don't really have any good place to ask about it) because I assumed that in order to keep up with the kf classes just because of the big story based bonuses that these characters get that I'd be worried about just tacking something on...


    You don't need them, you have spherecasting. That should suffice in most cases.


    Kaouse wrote:
    You don't need them, you have spherecasting. That should suffice in most cases.

    This is very true, I know that converting base class casting will be easy because I can just replace numbers. As such I'm primarily focusing my efforts on giving the classes under the Spheres jurisdiction somewhere to fit into this group (Especially the more unique ones like the Armorist, Soul Weaver, Shifter, Technician, and the like).

    I mean maybe I'm being a bit too stubborn about it, but despite the base classes widening to allow a wider array of playstyles. I feel like some of the things done here would need to be mostly preserved in class form.

    Armorist: As far as knowledge serves there is no way to make a 'weapon summoner' in the new system. Though with numen the benefit is much less pronounced than in PF I still think the concept is something worth playing.

    Technician: A whole class dedicated to being a mad scientist capable of making unique improved weapons and even mech suits! That seems like a waste to toss aside

    Shifter, Elicitor, and Elementalist: A bit of a simpler one but still interesting, specializing in one particular sphere to gain greater power.

    Incanter and Conscript: Admittedly these are the two that I could see as most easily cut or transferred as is, just because they are blank slate classes, but I feel it's worth mentioning these two just because of the sheer flexibility they gain.

    Scholar: A half-BAB mundane class centered around scientific discovery to replicate seemingly unnatural things through mundane chemistry and engineering (but not the Technician style of engineering).

    Though I will concede that some of these classes can just be turned into talents.

    Striker: The Tension ability can easily become either a monk sutra or a fighter talent (or a version for both).
    Blacksmith: The whole "enhancing partners' equipment for them" thing can easily just be a fighter talent, and a number of the smithing insights can be rolled into those as well.


    I'm going to motion that the Spheres Conversion Project get its own thread.


    Undead uploaded.


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    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    I'm going to motion that the Spheres Conversion Project get its own thread.

    Motion Heeded


    Staggering Strike, opponents damaged by the attack have to make a Fort save or be flat-footed, upgraded to staggered, then to dazed (for 1 round, then staggered 1d4+1 rounds), then to stunned (for 1 round + 1d4+1 rounds of stagger) as BAB increases. At BAB 11, the opponent is still staggered for 1 round even if they succeed their saving throw.

    Its synergy text states: "A rogue using this feat in conjunction with a sneak attack increases the duration of the Staggered condition to 1 round per die of sneak attack damage."

    So, does this apply to the staggered effect on a successful save, or does it only apply to the staggered effect on a failed save?

    Also, Killing Stroke's synergy reads: "If you have the Staggering Strike feat, apply the results of that feat to the opponent before referencing whether the Killing Stroke applies (this is a specific exception to the general rule of non-stacking of Strike effects). "

    Am I correct in stating that these two feats (Staggering Strike + Killing Stroke), both available from level 1, allow literally any character to execute any opponent who isn't immune to either crits or a whole host of conditions?


    Kaouse wrote:

    Staggering Strike, opponents damaged by the attack have to make a Fort save or be flat-footed, upgraded to staggered, then to dazed (for 1 round, then staggered 1d4+1 rounds), then to stunned (for 1 round + 1d4+1 rounds of stagger) as BAB increases. At BAB 11, the opponent is still staggered for 1 round even if they succeed their saving throw.

    Its synergy text states: "A rogue using this feat in conjunction with a sneak attack increases the duration of the Staggered condition to 1 round per die of sneak attack damage."

    So, does this apply to the staggered effect on a successful save, or does it only apply to the staggered effect on a failed save?

    Also, Killing Stroke's synergy reads: "If you have the Staggering Strike feat, apply the results of that feat to the opponent before referencing whether the Killing Stroke applies (this is a specific exception to the general rule of non-stacking of Strike effects). "

    Am I correct in stating that these two feats (Staggering Strike + Killing Stroke), both available from level 1, allow literally any character to execute any opponent who isn't immune to either crits or a whole host of conditions?

    I'm not a dev but I'd put the note that this also assumes

    !: You actually hit with it.
    2: As a rogue, you stay in that monster's square in the same spot long enough to make that attack.
    2: Staggered and Helpless are not the same thing. from level 1
    3: not an assumption but you are incorrect about killing stroke being available from level 1, you need a +1 BAB to get it.
    4: you're only able to execute anything that you hit at +11 BAB by getting daze from staggering and only if they fail their save.

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