Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Killing Stroke works on any character, not just Rogues. That's the real threat here.

Staggered and Helpless aren't the same thing at level 1, sure, but they can be treated as the same thing if your character spends 3 rounds studying their opponent beforehand. Spend 4 rounds studying and you can Coup de Grace from Stealth against a Flat-Footed opponent.

That said, I suppose I misspoke a bit. You can't make a person staggered until Level 6 with a failed save against Staggering Strike, but at Level 11, the opponent is still staggered even if they make their save.

Combine that with 1 round of studying the opponent (or Feat Mastery applied to Killing Stroke), and your level 11 character can perform a Coup de Grace as a standard action against literally anybody within 1 round.

Note that there are remarkably few things that give immunity to the Staggered condition. Immunity to the Flat-Footed condition can be gotten from the Alertness feat. Daze and Stunned conditions can be suppressed with a Padma Blossom. But staggered is a bit harder to get standing immunity to.

Killing Stroke is rather powerful in it's current state, is all I'm saying. Unless there are some coup de grace rules I didn't read?


Less than a standard action if you have a way to get a sneak attack as you can apply strikes to that no?

Also Heroic defiance is what you want. Preferably with feat mastery for total immortality / unstoppable at level 7 or 12 depending on what type of condition Dead is (permanent or critical).


I guess this now brings up the question of, what type of action is it to use Defiance/Heroic Defiance? I always assumed that you could only do it on your turn (in which case, you're SOL against Killing Stroke) but I guess it's somewhat vague.


Kaouse wrote:
I guess this now brings up the question of, what type of action is it to use Defiance/Heroic Defiance?

It isn't an action -- you can activate it anytime, in response to being hit with a condition. I'll have to update the text.

Also, with staggered being part of the [inertia] condition track (Chapter 7), anything that renders you immune to dazing or stunning also works against staggering.


Well, it's nice to finally have an answer.

That said, I guess this means that Defiance / Heroic Defiance become necessary feats in order to survive a world where any level 11+ character can pick up Killing Stroke, Staggering Strike, and Feat Mastery: Killing Stroke in order to one-shot anybody without even needing to study them first.

I guess the only real problem I have is that it means that Kirthfinder doesn't really play nice when attempting to integrate it into games using other systems.


Kaouse wrote:
Well, it's nice to finally have an answer.

I'm a guy with a job and a life outside of Paizo; nor is anyone playing KF a paying customer, so please cut me some slack on response time.

Kaouse wrote:
That said, I guess this means that Defiance / Heroic Defiance become necessary feats in order to survive

I think you're seriously underestimating the defenses that are available against that exploit:

  • Coup de grace isn't an auto-kill, and the Diehard feat + 11 ranks Endurance makes you outright immune. Given that barbarians, fighters, rangers, and a number of monster types all get free ranks in Endurance, this defense is commonly-available at little cost.
  • A hero point turns a crit into a regular hit, and hence negates the CDG instant-death chance.
  • [Strikes] are [precision] effects, so you either have to be in melee or at point-blank range to activate them unless otherwise noted. That also means that fortification can negate them.
  • Negating the staggered condition is simple by means of, e.g., the Resilient fighter talent, or anything else that negates dazing or stunning. Given how dangerous those conditions are in general, anyone should want to pick them up, regardless of the existence of this specific feat combo.

    Kaouse wrote:
    I guess the only real problem I have is that it means that Kirthfinder doesn't really play nice when attempting to integrate it into games using other systems.

    That was never a design goal.

    ---

    For what it's worth, the current Savage Tide PBP has a character using Killing Stroke (they just hit 4th level). So fat it's been fun but not ridiculously OP -- the second time he used it, it killed one bad guy, and the rest quickly beat him comatose. We'll see how it works when he hits BAB +11.


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    Fights in kirthfinder are quite brutal, and there are a plethora of combat options that can deliver an alpha strike. Here's my perspecive on killing stroke in low-level play (the only scenario I've played it in so far).

    Killing stroke is a great combat opener, but it comes with caveats. For KS to execute outright, it takes several rounds of observation, and you have to attack your target while they are flatfooted. Having your target spot you will spoil it, as will failing to close within range. Provided you can achieve surprise at close range, you still have to attack, and the dice can be fickle.

    In combat, it can be a big burst of damage, but again, it takes several rounds to execute properly. Those rounds spent studying are ones the assassin will contribute little to the fight, and could be spent dealing moderate damage each round instead of a lethal blow after several. KS is spectacular against a single target, but those kinds of fights are ones that an adventuring party already excells at, and there are several defensive options that can mitigate the effectiveness or divert the blow from the big bad evil guy to a sacificial mook.

    Returning to the line of thought from my opening, Kirthfinder rewards strategic play and the side that can set up combat on their terms has a decided advantage. Theres an entire section in the introduction about the sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic that can emerge from these more powerful options, and I think KS epotomizes that design philosophy. At higher levels, I can see the potential for it to be exceptionally deadly, but I would argue that it becomes first-among-equals in some encounters and markedly worse in others.

    The GM could certainly use the feat against the party quite effectively, but that would have to be done carefully to avoid being no fun for anyone. Perhaps a legendary assassin has been hired to slay the party's paladin or some similar story. If the feat is disruptive in your game, the ultimate use for these rules is to adapt them to fit your own group's playstyle. If it doesn't fit, remove or reduce it.

    I've certainly had fun using it, though the last time I used it, it killed the bullywug boss and his cronies beat me to death's door afterward, so your miles may vary.


    Rallying strike is where it's at. Allways full hp never die as you basically vampire them on every sneak attack. That or Severing strike, great for a disarm build.

    The only things I can think of that I'd actually think to class as or near legitimately broken are Heroic defiance + feat mastery as it's 16 rounds of immortality and un cc ability at level 11. And Selective spell antimagic field as this shuts down roughly 90% of monsters abilities Not to mention most of the Numen on an NPC (disregarding it shutting off spell casters entirely).

    Also the at-will mages dis-junction on dispelling strike is fairly silly


    Firewarrior44 wrote:
    Also the at-will mages dis-junction on dispelling strike is fairly silly

    (Nods.) That feat is part of the impetus for making Perfect Defense available to the fighter starting at level 1.


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    For those interested, example characters, from each tier of play, are posted in the "Classes" folder. As mentioned previously, they include Skeeve, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, Disney's Moana, Lord Robilar, Vainamoinen, Cu Chulainn, and Elric.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Kaouse wrote:
    Well, it's nice to finally have an answer.
    I'm a guy with a job and a life outside of Paizo; nor is anyone playing KF a paying customer, so please cut me some slack on response time.

    I know, and I thank you for taking the time out of your life in order to help answer these questions. I'm sorry if I came off as a little too snippity with my last response. I don't want you to sacrifice your job or your health or anything to answer some questions about a homebrew game.

    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Kaouse wrote:
    I guess the only real problem I have is that it means that Kirthfinder doesn't really play nice when attempting to integrate it into games using other systems.

    That was never a design goal.

    Yeah, this is entirely my fault, since I'm playing a Pathfinder game where my GM has been openly inclusive of a lot of different 3rd party subsystems (even some 3.5 material), and I petitioned him to allow Kirthfinder stuff even though he generally draws the line at homebrew.

    Because of this, he didn't really have that much defense against Killing Stroke at the time (since he also didn't allow hero points), so I just decided it would be best to get rid of it.

    (Surprisingly enough he was actually fine with it, but he ruled that if I wanted to keep it I would have to lose a bunch of different aspects to my character, since we were sort of building characters on a point-based pseudo Gestalt system).

    Quote:
    For what it's worth, the current Savage Tide PBP has a character using Killing Stroke (they just hit 4th level). So fat it's been fun but not ridiculously OP -- the second time he used it, it killed one bad guy, and the rest quickly beat him comatose. We'll see how it works when he hits BAB +11.

    It's nice to hear that this is working well with the rest of the Kirthfinder system, and hearing all of those other defenses (namely the hero point one) really set a lot of my fears to rest.


    Firewarrior44 wrote:
    The only things I can think of that I'd actually think to class as or near legitimately broken are Heroic defiance + feat mastery as it's 16 rounds of immortality and un cc ability at level 11.

    It's great at staving off a TPK -- the bad guys have you mopped up, but one guy just won't go down - no matter how much they whale on him -- and eventually saves the day before collapsing. I really like that. For anything less than a TPK, raise dead is available 2 levels earlier, so immortality is sort of already a thing, and has been for a while.


    I will admit looking at the example characters.. I'm personally just a bit shaky at just what to think of the 4 tier thing. Just as a personal bit of opinion.

    I'm so unsure because.. though I understand that most say campaigns usually do not go to 20, but something rubs me the wrong way about the fact that's close to an unspoken guarantee. Sorry if I'm really picking nits about it. (maybe I'm just salty at the idea that I thought KF now has the 'absurdly high level cap' thing)


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    At 16th level you're functionally a demigod, whether you call it that or not. Therefore, at 21st, you're in the power range of actual lesser gods, which would require an entirely new set of rules that I'm not really eager to tackle right now.


    @Kirth Gersen: I've been working on an overhaul for Pathfinder's wounding strikes, and thought this might enrich the project. Kirthfinder has feats that replicated called shots (namely blinding strike, crippling strike, daunting strike, severing strike, etc.), but no direct called shot rules.

    Although locking the mechanics behind feats or class abilities may be a design choice, it could be better to unchain them.

    This consolidates the aforementioned abilities, makes mechanics more consistent and uniform, and gives more combat options (which might help since the project is in the combat chapter).
    Furthermore, characters who specialize in certain maneuvers such as blinding can take a feat to improve the effects landed by such called shots.

    Here's the link


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    Pathfinder 2e Playtest came out. Seeing a lot of familiar stuff in there. Some changes I like, others...not so much. I still think Kirthfinder is a way better Pathfinder 2E than the actual Pathfinder 2E.


    Here's a wickedly awesome idea: Convert the new playtest campaign, Doomsday Dawn, into a Kirthfinder campaign. Then use it to playtest/introduce people to Kirthfinder.

    We could even call it, "Doomsday Dusk." People can then compare how it feels to play between the two systems, and rate their experiences with both PF2E and KF, comparing and contrasting the two.


    Hello! I have ended up back once again. I pardon and hope that I am not rude about any of this, but I have a few questions so that I can better understand the system you made. I also can only hope I am not arrogant in saying that in rereading the rules I thought I'd give a little critique, a review of what I see so far in it.

    Question/s
    Nostalgia: In a number of cases, a seemingly bizarre rules change has been implemented as a “nod” to previous editions, especially 1st edition AD&D. Overall, those rules were mechanically a mess, but they did provide a certain type of experience that these rules use as a reference.

    I wanted to ask just what this means, I mean I get what it actually means but I was wondering just what "nostalgia" you were trying to rekindle and what the "certain types of experience" that those brought were.

    The other question would be about 3pp classes, admittedly I did somewhat already ask this question but I think I need to ask it again because of the fact that.. well because whilst I think that they can be mechanically similar in power, I know that Martial classes got jacked up in terms of their ability to interact with the story, and I worry that others would not really be able to keep up with that, and that the person who wanted to go with say Armorist for example would feel cheated when they realize the Fighter gets a magic sword as a class feature AND an inherent part of their class being able to control the story in major ways when they do not have such boons.

    Critique (and these are personal opinions)
    The Good
    Pretty much 95% of the "design philosophies" presented in the beginning, because I feel that they are almost all worthy. rebalancing to remove feat and skill taxes, giving more options with class.

    Feats in particular: I wanted to mention this just because I love it so much. I love the scaling feats, how you now can gain from a single feat things that PF standard would take 3-4 for.

    Equipment: Sorry for getting emotional again but this is another of those things that I just want to be in every one of my PF games. it's smart, it's sleek, it means you don't need like 5 different books worth of equipment (aside from firearms being a bit awkward). I just feel it is so interesting and perfect for how equipment can be handled.

    The Bad
    The one design philosophy I'm not a fan of, the relegation of the GM to "Referee" duty. I am not the person who feels that the GM should have sole creative freedom and absolute power, but I do feel they should be the final arbiter and still have some amount of creative control since that is probably the thing that they as the GM do to have fun with the campaign. Granted I also do like the fact that players DO get a lot more narrative control just because I think it can be interesting, but it still is a bit worrying to think that the narrative power has essentially been taken from the gm as far as I can read from the philosophy section.

    Age penalties: Granted age penalties are a thing that does not come up much, but I just personally feel like the bonuses from age played up the Fantastical elements of the story ("The raw strength of youth may be spent, but his eyes hold the secrets of a hundred campaigns") rather than the gritty realism of dementia and mental deterioration.

    the PERSONAL gripes, things that more personal opinion than actual issues to the point that they are their own category.
    Setting/race related things: This isn't a real problem because it does not matter all that much, however I just thought it was worth mentioning just because this is opinion like I said. I already mad mentioned my gripes in the thread before. (Drow basically. How can you do the dark elves and drizztes out there like that by making drow essentially an evil only prestige class) so I won't go into detail.

    Firearms: once again an unimportant thing and again as I said before it's a purely personal opinion. I'm not a fan of firearms getting essentially turned into wands.


    Sorry if I annoyed y'all enough to kill chat.. I'm just quite interested again and kinda want to join in if a campaign is starting..


    Nah, chat's been pretty sparse ever since word of 2E came to be. It's pretty sad, really. But it's not like Kirth Gersen is getting paid for this; he's just doing this on his free time. Maybe he's more busy than normal, or maybe he's lost the will the continue this project. I hope that the latter isn't the case, but if it is, know that Kirthfinder is primarily homebrew, and like with Pathfinder, if there's an aspect of the rules that you don't like, you can always feel free to change them.

    Grand Lodge

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    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

    I'm sure he's doing what he can, but I know kids take up a lot of your time. I'd also say KF is pretty solid where it is at, as far as I can tell. Tweaks will keep happening, but not at a rapid pace.


    True Kaouse about being able to change things some. I just worry that since I don't have the inner system knowledge to really be able to leap in and make the more major changes like races and such. Also in regards to changing things, I made a bit of mention about mixing systems due to the fact that I don't really know if I could sell a new group on a homebrewed "Kirthfinder" as I could on the oringinal


    Also though not really having to do with KF I want to say that it sucks to be the one person in your group of friends that literally know anything about RPGs when you want to be a player


    Has anybody else had trouble with the sharing link on the Kirthfinder Google Drive? It's been greyed out for a while now, and I don't know if the link I have is working for everyone I want to share the link with.


    I haven't had trouble at least


    Sorry, folks, still here. A lot going on at home lately, including a move. I hope to get some updates on the Google drive soon, including an expanded spells Grimoire and an equipment guide with more examples. For the most part, though, I'm pretty happy with where the system is and don't foresee any major monkeying with it (I'd still like to get to where the armor prices "zero out" based on the equipment rules, but that's fairly low on my overall priorities list).


    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    I was wondering just what "nostalgia" you were trying to rekindle and what the "certain types of experience" that those brought were.

    Houstonderek and I grew up on 1e, and it shaped our young lives. For his sake and my own amusement, I've re-introduced all the old wizard names into the spell names (e.g., "Leomund's Trap"), and added a lot of 1e/2e spells to the Grimoire (e.g., Leomund's lamentable belaborment). I also converted some critters from earlier editions, and used the 1e Monster Manual as a reference even when converting monsters that were updated to D&D and PF.

    In terms of play experience, there was a lot more emphasis on extended adventuring, where sometimes it took several attempts to clear a dungeon, for example -- this idea shows up in the "leveling up" rules, which call for slower progression and larger-scale adventures.

    Also, a lot of the experience in 1e centered around attracting hirelings and followers and so on, so I intentionally made a lot of Leadership-type options.

    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    The other question would be about 3pp classes, admittedly I did somewhat already ask this question but I think I need to ask it again because of the fact that.. well because whilst I think that they can be mechanically similar in power, I know that Martial classes got jacked up in terms of their ability to interact with the story, and I worry that others would not really be able to keep up with that, and that the person who wanted to go with say Armorist for example would feel cheated when they realize the Fighter gets a magic sword as a class feature AND an inherent part of their class being able to control the story in major ways when they do not have such boons.

    The KF fighter is intended to supersede the fighter, cavalier, samurai, armorist, and any number of other similar classes. So if you want to play an armorist in KF, pick fighter as your class and select equipment bonds as your talents. There's a whole section in the Intro chapter that spells out suggestions as to bringing in other stuff, and when it's not really needed, etc.


    Hi fellows,
    and congrats for great job, Kirth!

    Haven't been around for a long time and took me a while until I catch-up with this topic (still in the middle of it, really, but going forward).
    Kirth, I've been following your work since original topic started, run few games with THE RULES, that can be found in TOZ shared docs, and I've been sold forever.
    Few years since then and I'm back to table RPG and with great pleasure I've seen that Kirthfinder community is here to stay! :)

    I saw in that tread that you've got some rework on Houserules and that rework cannot be found on TOZ site anymore - may I kindly ask you (or anyone, who can spend some time) to send me latest revision?

    If anyone consider to do this, please use followng adress:

    email:
    stefan.kamburov(at)gmail.com

    Thank you in advance, keep rocking!

    P.S. Sorry for my English, not many points in that skill.


    Hm.. I guess I hadn't thought about Fighter as being able to relate to the Armorist, Although that little mistake is mostly because of the fact that I always thought of personal weapon like "The blade of your ancestors that you keep on you whenever you can but can still get disarmed and stolen" rather than "I can summon swords" because that's something a lot more Mage-ish. Though Now I think that I have my next KF character concept. (Although I would still note that there are still classes left unaccounted for, like Technician {though I guess a few of these things can be simulated using Numen} and Scholar {a number of these things can be recreated with wizards and the like, but not a class that is mundane but able to support} and to a far lesser extent striker (definitely can be done with a monk/fighter in regards to an unarmed build, but) but thanks for taking the time to note my problem anyway despite my being rather annoying about things.

    Also whilst I'm jabbering about Spheres I'll just say this about Fighters and Might Spheres.

    Martial Practitioner: Give up Onslaught of Blows and 1/2 of your Bonus Feats to become either a proficient or Expert Practitioner. (those feats being at 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18)

    I guess that I end up thinking outside of things instead of just trying to work with the system because.. well
    1: the things I've already probably said in other forums that I tend to feel like I sorta want to combine the systems to create something a little bit reduced behind KF whilst also using a number of the solutions that KF brings to the table to fix a lot of things that I felt weren't quite right.
    2: I have no real problem with multiclassing personally, and like that you have the option in the first place, but I also end up kinda getting the issue feeling just a little hollow to think "I am a Wizard Barbarian Rogue in order to represent a specific combination of mechanics to represent an 'alchemist'" instead of "I am an Alchemist". Or with Armorist, "I am a fighter that grabbed multiple uses of the Personal Weapon ability in order to create something to play out a 'weapon summoner' instead of saying "I am an Armorist. I summon armor from dimensions beyond to my side as a Requip caster, donning my armor in magical girl transformations"


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    Stefan Kamburov wrote:
    I saw in that tread that you've got some rework on Houserules and that rework cannot be found on TOZ site anymore - may I kindly ask you (or anyone, who can spend some time) to send me latest revision?

    Hi, the rules are up on Google Drive now.


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    Sincere thanks, @Andostre!
    Plenty of info to go through, can't wait to print all of it! :)


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    Warriorking9001 wrote:


    2: I have no real problem with multiclassing personally, and like that you have the option in the first place, but I also end up kinda getting the issue feeling just a little hollow to think "I am a Wizard Barbarian Rogue in order to represent a specific combination of mechanics to represent an 'alchemist'" instead of "I am an Alchemist". Or with Armorist, "I am a fighter that grabbed multiple...

    I'm the exact opposite. I've never put any more thought into my class selection beyond 'this is how I fight'. Hell, of the various monks I've played over the years I don't think even a single one of the has ever seen a monastery from the inside and the one character I played that was a proud paladin didn't have a single level in paladin.

    Almost all of our characters' job just reads adventurer so do they really care what building blocks their powers are made up of?


    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    I also end up kinda getting the issue feeling just a little hollow to think "I am a Wizard Barbarian Rogue" in order to represent a specific combination of mechanics to represent an 'alchemist'" instead of "I am an Alchemist".

    Your character would no doubt say "I am an alchemist." You, as the player, represent that using rogue/wizard/barbarian, but that's out of game. The mechanics of the system should enable the type of character you want to play, but outside of that don't have to be called by the in-game name for that concept.


    If anyone reading this thread would like a chance to play, one spot has opened up for my latest KF play-by-post game; if interested, apply HERE.


    Hey Kirth, how would you rate this build:

    Amberite 2 + Adept 11 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist Wizard 5

    If I'm correct, you get a spellcasting capacity of 13, which means you can cast 7th level spells (which are drawn from your specialist school or cast via metamagic). You also get a BAB of +11, which helps a bit with action economy. The extra stats from Amberite certainly help too, afterall.

    One more thing I realized though, is that this combo is only 15 CR or so. If we're allowed to go over 20 Hit Dice, then we could either add 10 levels of Warrior, or 5 levels of an actual PC class, like say, Blackguard Antipaladin. That gets us a BAB of +16 as well as a spell capacity of 15. At that point, we're pretty close to a Bard in stats, no? Just with...a much more insanely focused spell list.


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    I'll give you that Kirth, I guess I'm just a bit strange and picky about it, it helped to hear you say it out loud as weird as that is to say.

    Though whilst I'm yabbering about alchemists, have an esoteric branch idea.

    Alchemy
    Wizards under the name of the Alchemist tend to favor internal magic over the complexities of the arcane, mixing the mundane and magical to create powerful and terrifying brews.
    Arcane Bond: you gain a portable Alchemy Lab. When you have your alchemy lab you are considered to have the Imbue Item feat, but only when creating 'alchemical' items (talk with your GM as to just what that means when creating items, but usually potions are the most common.)

    First Level School Power: Infusion. When choosing your spells for the day, you put your magical energy into physical form. This gives you the benefit that others may use your spells as though they had cast them themselves by imbibing or throwing the infusion (whichever seems more fitting for the spell). They must use the same action as it would take you to cast it, but do not suffer from Spell Failure chance or need components (material components or foci are considered part of the infusion itself)

    School Bonus:
    Mutagenic Rage: Your Transmutation effects are powerful mutagens. When creating a transmutation spell infusion with the Polymorph descriptor, choose one physical stat. The creature that imbibes it gains a bonus to that physical stat equal to your Specialist bonus, and a Reduction to their intelligence of the same amount.
    Alchemic Bomb: When making an Evocation Infusion, you may choose to make it an alchemical splash weapon with a range increment of 20 feet+ 5x your Specialist bonus. you can throw this item as a standard action. If it successfully hits your target the spell is effected as normal, and gains 2 extra damage per D6 the spell normally had. If it misses, roll to see by how far you missed and resolve the attack area that way. If it requires a touch attack instead of a save, those within 5 feet of the effect must make a reflex save or take 1/2 of the original damage. Not all evocation spells can be created by this (GM fiat is king, though generally Rays are not thrown)

    Grand Alchemy: At twentieth level, you gain an understanding of a powerful and long sought after formula, such as the Philosopher's Stone or the Elixir of Youth. (basically the same thing as the alchemist capstone in vanilla)


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    Warriorking9001 wrote:
    Though whilst I'm yabbering about alchemists, have an esoteric branch idea.

    That works surprisingly well, and seems like a good use of the esoteric branch concept.


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    Dunno why you need the wizard at all when making an Alchemist, to be honest. Kirthfinder Rogue with Grenadier talent does basically all of the work, and you can just take the magical talent feat for access to the rage spell. Better yet, take the magical talent array feat and fill it up with metamagic'd versions of the Attribute Boost / Blessing seed spell. Add Polymorph/Shapechange spells to that list if you have the room!

    No dipping required, and you cover all the major Alchemist bases (Stat boost, bomb useage, skills out the wazoo, etc.). At most, you'd need some slight GM fiat to allow Imbue Item to work with skill tricks, allowing you to give out infusions, but there are other ways to buff allies if that was your focus.

    tl;dr? Kirthfinder Rogue makes a pretty serviceable Alchemist all by itself.


    Kaouse wrote:

    Hey Kirth, how would you rate this build:

    Amberite 2 + Adept 11 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist Wizard 5

    If I'm correct, you get a spellcasting capacity of 13, which means you can cast 7th level spells (which are drawn from your specialist school or cast via metamagic). You also get a BAB of +11, which helps a bit with action economy. The extra stats from Amberite certainly help too, afterall.

    One more thing I realized though, is that this combo is only 15 CR or so. If we're allowed to go over 20 Hit Dice, then we could either add 10 levels of Warrior, or 5 levels of an actual PC class, like say, Blackguard Antipaladin. That gets us a BAB of +16 as well as a spell capacity of 15. At that point, we're pretty close to a Bard in stats, no? Just with...a much more insanely focused spell list.

    It dawns on me that this build doesn't really lose anything by trading a level of Adept for a level of Warrior. This gives you more class skills, decent weapon proficiency, and the ability to trade out armor proficiency for Canny Defense, which becomes a heck of a lot more useful with the Amberite stat boosts.

    You could also trade out the Lich levels for Human racial paragon (for even more stat boosts), but then you'd lose out on one level of spellcasting capacity (i.e. loosing access to 7th/8th level spells), so it likely isn't worth it.

    Actually, now that I think about, do you really lose anything for trading out 8 of those Adept levels for levels in Vampire? If I'm understanding the way theurgy works (and it's entirely likely that I might not be), the weak theurgy you gain from vampire levels gives you basically the same spellcasting capacity as more levels in Adept.

    So the new build then, is this:

    Amberite 2 + Warrior 1 + Adept 1 / Adept 2 / Vampire 8 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist 5.

    With that, you get a BAB of +13 and a spellcasting capacity of 13 as well (which is actually super thematic, considering the build's theme). Plus, you have ludicrously amazing stats, and you're super hard to kill thanks to gaseuous form AND a phylactery.

    I'm actually super interested in playing something like this in the future...

    EDIT: I just realized, Lich is a +2 CR template but has 4 class levels, Amberite / Advanced is a +1 CR template with 2 class levels...are all racial class levels also 1/2 CR, just like NPC class levels?

    If so, that would make the CR of my revised build...CR 13, lol.


    Kaouse wrote:

    Dunno why you need the wizard at all when making an Alchemist, to be honest. Kirthfinder Rogue with Grenadier talent does basically all of the work, and you can just take the magical talent feat for access to the rage spell. Better yet, take the magical talent array feat and fill it up with metamagic'd versions of the Attribute Boost / Blessing seed spell. Add Polymorph/Shapechange spells to that list if you have the room!

    No dipping required, and you cover all the major Alchemist bases (Stat boost, bomb useage, skills out the wazoo, etc.). At most, you'd need some slight GM fiat to allow Imbue Item to work with skill tricks, allowing you to give out infusions, but there are other ways to buff allies if that was your focus.

    tl;dr? Kirthfinder Rogue makes a pretty serviceable Alchemist all by itself.

    I can agree with you that that does make sense.. Although I think skill tricks are too mundane to be used for imbue item to make potions..

    And Kirth actually liked something I said? Excelsior!

    and I guess whilst I'm on the rule crafting role... Not to end up annoying anyone again after all that goodwill, but I'll mention spheres again, Both to throw out ideas and to ask questions.
    1: Armorist. I wouldn't accuse you of being 'wrong' but I was told that Fighter and Personal Weapon could replace bound equipment. Granted there was the mention of Arcane Bond being used to replicate it with its 10th level power, but... For a fighter with EK that means about 20th level not counting eating a feat for it. and it can only be done with a singular weapon, and those wizard levels take away potential BaB. Yes I'm being picky but I asked for Armorist and I got this.

    2: Armiger: All the equipment based classes coming out I see... Aside from maybe grit or an alternate class feature replacing grit I don't really see a good place for this to slip into the "fighter subsumes all of these" column.

    3: Sentinel: The first class on here to actually fit in flawlessly into fighter, Challenge, Armor Training, I think it's called.. juggernaut? the talent that gives you a d12 hit die, and giving the whole 'give up bonus feats for talents) thing and we have it.
    4: Striker: Granted a Monk can fit this one fairly well (especially if we give some kind of ability to gain Spheres, probably a Proficient practitioner in exchange for Ki powers), but... Tension is lost. (though that could also become a fighter talent).
    5: Technician and Scholar: Technician at least has some Numen tricks he can do to get his specializations lined up, but that's not the best answer. Scholar probably has some issues I don't know about.
    6: Incanter: Basically able to just be slotted in with some slight changes, make Eldritch Blast its own 1 point specialization with the caveat that sorcerer bloodline is a prerequisite. And perhaps change around the sphere specializations to be more in line with school powers now.
    7: Spheres and Eldritch Blast: Sorcerers that decide to go for Sphere magic instead of vancian gain a blast, the Energy Focus drawback, and count that blast as their eldritch blast for the bonuses they get.
    8: Blacksmith: Thunderous Strikes as a Rogue Talent and Martial Outlaw? and the Smithing abilities can be a Fighter talent.
    9: Commander: No idea how to make this work.
    10: Mageknight. either a Fighter talent or just et EK give you the ability to get Basic & Advanced magic training and spend bonus combat feats on magic talents.
    11: not a spheres thing, but Guns again: I've been a broken record on guns but them being spell items still does not quite sit right with me.


    Kaouse wrote:


    So the new build then, is this:

    Amberite 2 + Warrior 1 + Adept 1 / Adept 2 / Vampire 8 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist 5.

    ...

    EDIT: I just realized, Lich is a +2 CR template but has 4 class levels, Amberite / Advanced is a +1 CR template with 2 class levels...are all racial class levels also 1/2 CR, just like NPC class levels?

    If so, that would make the CR of my revised build...CR 13, lol.

    If I replace the Warrior level with another Adept level and add 7 levels of Blackguard Antipaladin, I think I end up with a spellcapacity of 17 and a BAB of 19.

    Even better, I can boost that up to a BAB of 20 if I replace 2 of those Blackguard levels with 4 levels in Human Racial Paragon. With that, I also gain an extra level of spellcasting capacity, which should definitely put me at 17-18.

    Course, by then, I have 29 Hit Dice, so...yeah. I think it should be an interesting boss fight, though.


    Hmm...Another possibility, is to try something like this:

    Amberite 2 + Adept 2 / Human Paragon 4 / Vampire 5 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist 5.

    The 3 levels of Synergy you gain from Human Paragon should basically be enough to complete your Vampire class, since the last "new" ability the Vampire gains is the racial suite of spellcasting at level 5. Everything else is technically just a continuation of a prior ability, so theoretically...the strong synergy you gain from human paragon makes it so that you don't really lose anything by doing things this way. You do, however, gain even more stats.

    ...Not gonna lie, I'm strongly considering the possibility of dumping Eshkeval for this Dracula build. It probably isn't worth the loss of spellcasting capacity, but the stats are SO shiny and attractive, and the entire build fits together thematically insanely well.

    I think I'll settle for building it in that gestalt game though, I guess. I've kind of already finalized Eshkeval, and I'm still not entirely sure if I've done all the math and stuff properly to come to the results I've done so far. I'm also not so sure that the party wants to have an evil undead companion with them, and lastly, I'm pretty sure that even taking the Vampire Racial Class is 100% GM Fiat to begin with, to say nothing of the inevitable hurdle of reclaiming free will that comes with it.

    Eshkeval is a much safer choice for my first real Kirthfinder game, IMHO. And it's not like I don't have plans for him in the future, either...

    EDIT: I just realized that this build, on top of having 13 BAB and a Spellcasting Capacity of 13, also theoretically has a +13 Natural Armor bonus, assuming all racial natural armor bonuses stack (2 from Amberite, 6 from Vampire, 5 from Lich). That's gotta be like, the unholy trifecta right there. God I love this build.


    Is it even rules legal to be 3 different 'paragon' classes, and Two different ones that make you undead?

    I mean maybe I'm overreacting but that's the fishiest thing to me in this build, the fact that you have..

    1 npc class
    4 Paragon/Template Classes (amberite, Lich, Vampire, and Human Paragon)
    1 Prestige class
    Not a single Base class level to be seen.

    Granted maybe I'm weird because i'd only allow players to take paragons once per a limit of levels (Like Daione Sidhe has 5 levels, so an elf player could take a level at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, Drow has 2 levels, so you could take it at 10 and 20 as a player, etc.)

    And yes I know it's an NPC


    Sorry for jabbering and probably not helping even a little (or doing the opposite even), but I keep getting this sensation like I keep wanting to cherry pick rules and put them into pathfinder but I also feel like doing that (especially doing it consistently like giving all the classes their KF talents) would totally break the game.. How do I either Get over this feeling and play KF or PF straight and

    I understand that I probably seem incredibly, unbearably arrogant by asking such a question, but I don't even know what specifically makes me twitch about it, just that it does. On one hand there are things in Kirthfinder that I basically never want to play without (The Equipment Rules and the genius of how Fighter Talents and other similar abilities work) but I also get this twinge in the back of my head that something does not seem right, and so I end up in weird fits of trying to homebrew and then stopping because I realize I'm literally just sloppily cutting out pieces of KF and plastering them into vanilla.


    Warriorking9001 wrote:

    Sorry for jabbering and probably not helping even a little (or doing the opposite even), but I keep getting this sensation like I keep wanting to cherry pick rules and put them into pathfinder but I also feel like doing that (especially doing it consistently like giving all the classes their KF talents) would totally break the game.. How do I either Get over this feeling and play KF or PF straight and

    I understand that I probably seem incredibly, unbearably arrogant by asking such a question, but I don't even know what specifically makes me twitch about it, just that it does. On one hand there are things in Kirthfinder that I basically never want to play without (The Equipment Rules and the genius of how Fighter Talents and other similar abilities work) but I also get this twinge in the back of my head that something does not seem right, and so I end up in weird fits of trying to homebrew and then stopping because I realize I'm literally just sloppily cutting out pieces of KF and plastering them into vanilla.

    My (never-to-be-complete) homebrew rules look like a bizarre cross of KF and the PF 2nd edition playtest, so you're not alone. Can't say I have an answer for you, unfortunately, given that resolving those sorts of problems is exactly what stalled my project. Well, that and grad school.


    Warriorking9001 wrote:

    Is it even rules legal to be 3 different 'paragon' classes, and Two different ones that make you undead?

    I mean maybe I'm overreacting but that's the fishiest thing to me in this build, the fact that you have..

    1 npc class
    4 Paragon/Template Classes (amberite, Lich, Vampire, and Human Paragon)
    1 Prestige class
    Not a single Base class level to be seen.

    Granted maybe I'm weird because i'd only allow players to take paragons once per a limit of levels (Like Daione Sidhe has 5 levels, so an elf player could take a level at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, Drow has 2 levels, so you could take it at 10 and 20 as a player, etc.)

    And yes I know it's an NPC

    Rules wise, The only requirement for Amberite and Human Paragon is to be human and take Open Minded (i.e. "Skilled") + Power Over Shadow as your Human bonus feats. After that, becoming a Vampire is 99% GM Fiat since you need to be turned by a previous vampire, AND you start off in the control of the one who turned you. High level spellcasters could use Create Undead + Command Undead to get around this, though.

    Being a Vampire who becomes a Lich is seemingly allowed in Kirthfinder, though it's noteworthy that it's not possible in Pathfinder. This is because the Lich template in Pathfinder specifies that it's applied to "living" creatures, thereby disqualifying undead creatures. This distinction is absent in Kirthfinder, AFAICT.

    I agree that it's a very powerful option, especially when looking at the full 20th level build. But when you really start looking at other 20th level Kirthfinder classes, I think you'd find that they have a lot of powerful options as well.


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    Warriorking9001 wrote:

    Sorry for jabbering and probably not helping even a little (or doing the opposite even), but I keep getting this sensation like I keep wanting to cherry pick rules and put them into pathfinder but I also feel like doing that (especially doing it consistently like giving all the classes their KF talents) would totally break the game.. How do I either Get over this feeling and play KF or PF straight and

    I understand that I probably seem incredibly, unbearably arrogant by asking such a question, but I don't even know what specifically makes me twitch about it, just that it does. On one hand there are things in Kirthfinder that I basically never want to play without (The Equipment Rules and the genius of how Fighter Talents and other similar abilities work) but I also get this twinge in the back of my head that something does not seem right, and so I end up in weird fits of trying to homebrew and then stopping because I realize I'm literally just sloppily cutting out pieces of KF and plastering them into vanilla.

    Yeah, at the start of this page you'll notice that I had a small altercation with Kirth over how powerful a Rogue could be with Killing Stroke and Staggering Strike in the late game, effectively coup de grace'ing any target without much chance for the target to fight back.

    Of course, that only happens if you cherry pick powerful things from Kirthfinder without using all the answers to said things that Kirthfinder classes are expected to have. Like Hero Points, which stack from level 1 to level 20 ad infinitum. A single Hero Point is enough to negate a coup de grace, meaning that Killing Stroke, while great against low level NPCs, actually kind of sucks against anything you'd be seriously fighting at the level where it's most effective.

    Long story short, Kirthfinder and Pathfinder, while incredibly similar with a bunch of backwards compatibility, are two separate games at the end of the day. You're almost always better off just running Kirthfinder for the sake of balance.


    I guess that's true... Though I'm still a little stuck on the conversion stuff I mentioned. Classes are just generally better in KF than in PF.


    Though I guess if that's my issue then I ought to get to work.

    For conscript specializations, either allow you to trade out onslaught of blows or gain it as a talent set.

    fighter talent conscript specializations:

    Sphere Specialization [Fighter Talent]
    Prerequisites: Special., Fighter 3
    Benefit: Choose One Sphere you possess, you gain a unique ability regarding this sphere selected from the Conscript Sphere Specialization List.

    Improved Sphere Specialization [Fighter Talent]
    Prerequisites:, Fighter 8, Sphere Specialization
    Benefit: Choose One Sphere you possess and have Sphere Specialization in, your abilities with this sphere increase further, and you gain the 8th level power of your specialization.

    Greater Sphere Specialization [Fighter Talent]
    Prerequisites:, Fighter 19, Sphere Specialization, Improved Sphere Specialization
    Benefit: Choose One Sphere you possess and have Sphere Specialization and Improved Sphere Specialization in, your abilities with this sphere have reached their pinnacle, gain the 20th level Conscript Specialization ability for your sphere (Yes I know you get this early but it's your last fighter talent in the game)

    Incanter can pretty much stay in wholesale, though maybe give it wizard specialization style Specialist Bonus on its sphere specific specializations.

    Incanter specialist bonuses:
    Alteration: Gains specialist bonus on attacks with natural attacks (and can pass this bonus to others as an Enhancement Bonus)
    Conjuration: Specialist bonuses added onto either Attacks and damage or on Aid Another between you and your companion.
    Creation: count your Caster level as your specialist bonus higher for the size of objects you can create.
    Dark: DCs and any penalties taken from your darkness
    Death: increase the number of HD of undead you can raise and control by your specialist bonus, and increase the DC of your ghost strikes by your specialist bonus.
    Destruction: Increase your Damage and DCs of destructive blasts by your specialist bonus.
    Enhancement: Vigor: Give your Specialist Bonus to something involving your enhancements, for example enhanced weapons or attacks would give someone a morale bonus to attack rolls for the length of it. Malice: Negative enhancements give a penalty to something relevant to it.
    Fate: Can't say I'm sure about this one.
    Illusion: DCs of your illusions
    Life: Increase Damage Healed with the Life Sphere by your specialist bonus.
    Light: Not sure what to do with this either.
    Mind: DCs of your mind talents
    Nature: Not sure what to do with this either
    Protection: Increase the Numerical Bonuses given by Aegises by your specialist bonus, and give your Wards a bonus to their HP equal to your Specialist Bonus x your Protection Caster Level.
    Telekinesis: Treat your caster level as higher when determining the size of objects you can lift with your telekinesis.
    Time: Not sure about this one.
    War: Increase the bonuses given by your Totems by this number (War is a not good sphere normally for small adventuring bands anyway so this is fair)
    Warp: Not sure what to do with this either because Warp is one of the best spheres and giving it more warping distance sounds broken. Though the obvious choice is an extra 5 feet of teleportation per specialist bonus.
    Weather: Not sure about this one either.


    more dropping now, and I can only hope I'm looking helpful rather than annoying...

    Blacksmith to fighter:

    Blacksmith [Fighter Talent]

    Benefits the fighter (referred from here on as the 'blacksmith') learns how to maintain and optimize his equipment and that of his party members by sharpening weapons, tightening armor straps, replacing padding, and performing other tasks that allow him and his companions to get the most out of their gear each day. Whenever the party has at least 8 consecutive hours of rest time (or the equivalent of 8 hour’s rest, such as 2 hour’s rest with a ring of sustenance or similar ability), the blacksmith can set aside a small period of time to perform these maintenance tasks without interfering with his normal rest to give him and a number of allies equal to 1 + his Constitution modifier (minimum 1) one of the following benefits for 24 hours, or until their next 8 hour or longer rest, whichever comes first. The blacksmith may select a different maintenance for each ally to be affected.

    Armor Maintenance
    The blacksmith and his allies reduce the armor check penalty of all armor they wear by 1 (minimum 0), and increase the armor bonus of their worn armor (but not shields) by +1. The armor bonus increases by +1 and the armor check penalty is reduced by an additional 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. For the purposes of this ability, a standard set of clothing or similar equivalent (such as a wizard’s robes) is treated as light armor with an armor bonus and armor check penalty of 0.

    Clarifying Reinforcements
    The blacksmith hammers thin lead linings into helmets and head gear, sews small packets of smelling salts into glove linings, and performs other tasks that give his allies an advantage in resisting harmful mental effects; all creatures affected by this maintenance gain a +1 competence bonus to Will saves, plus an additional +1 for every 5 class levels the blacksmith possesses.

    Cobbling
    The blacksmith reinforces his allies’ footwear, giving them a firmer tread and providing sturdier protection; the blacksmith and his allies ignore the first square of difficult terrain they enter each round; at 5th level and every five levels thereafter, they may ignore one additional square of difficult terrain each round.

    Fortifying Reinforcements
    The blacksmith adds special herbal packets and additional temporary reinforcements to his and his allies armor making them heartier and more resistant; all creatures affected by this maintenance gain a +1 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, plus an additional +1 for every 5 class levels the blacksmith possesses.

    Heavy-Duty Reinforcement
    The blacksmith adds temporary reinforcements to his and his allies’ equipment, increasing the hardness and hit points of all affected creatures’ weapons and armor by an amount equal to his class level. In addition, weapons affected by this maintenance ignore an amount of hardness when used to sunder or damage objects equal to 1/2 the blacksmith’s class level (minimum 1).

    Pack Straps
    By optimizing the straps and buckles of his allies packs and pouches, the blacksmith and his allies may treat their Strength score as though it were 2 points higher when determining their carrying capacity, plus an additional 2 points for every 5 class levels the blacksmith possesses.

    Polish
    The blacksmith polishes his allies metal armor, weapons, and shields, giving them a clean polish that can even deflect magical attacks. Once per day, when an affected ally would normally be hit by a ray attack, they may deflect it as a free action that can be taken even when it is not their turn so that they take no damage and are unaffected by it. The ally must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. The blacksmith and his affected allies may reflect one additional ray per day at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

    Quickening Reinforcements
    The blacksmith oils the joints and treats the leather of his and his allies’ gear, granting them a +1 competence bonus to Reflex saves, plus an additional +1 for every 5 class levels the blacksmith possesses.

    Sharpen Weapons
    The blacksmith and his allies gain a +2 bonus to all damage rolls made with manufactured weapons. This bonus increases by +2 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

    At fighter level 6, 12, and 18. the blacksmith can add one more smithing enhancement (2 at 6, 3 at 12, and 4 ad 18)

    Thunderous Blows [Fighter talent or Rogue Combat Talent]
    Prerequisites: some form of Sneak Attack.
    You have learned the perfect manner by which to destroy crafted items just as well if not better than breaking bodies. Whenever you attempt to sunder an item or strike a construct, add your Sneak Attack damage to the blow. This talent can be taken up to twice. If taken a second time the user has learned how to swing his weapons in a way that shatters scales and claws as easily as manufactured armor and weapons. The user may make a special sunder attempt as an attack action, targeting a creature’s natural armor or natural weapons. If the user chooses to sunder the creature’s natural armor, on a successful check he deals damage to the creature equal to his normal weapon damage (bonus damage from thunderous blows is not applied when using sunder in this manner) and it takes a penalty to its natural armor bonus equal to the number of bonus damage dice granted by his thunderous blows class feature; a creature’s natural armor bonus cannot be reduced below 0 in this manner. Any amount of magical healing removes this penalty, as does a DC 15 Heal check, which can be made as a standard action.

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