seeing as though a ninja>a rogue :(
Untrue, unless you multiclass: you can't disarm magic traps as a Ninja.
Secondly, you can't get any archetype that requires trapsense/evasion/\trapfinding to substitute.Examples Pirate (not a good one but no pirate Ninja), Sniper (no Sniping Ninja), No Knife Master, etc.
Only Stuff like Scout, Bandit, Trapsmith (not as useful for a Ninja), sanctified rogue, and Burglar.
But for Combat? Ninja is better. For everything else, the Rogue is better.
The Rogue can get the Ki Pool as well.
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seeing as though a ninja>a rogue :(Untrue, unless you multiclass: you can't disarm magic traps as a Ninja.
Secondly, you can't get any archetype that requires trapsense/evasion/\trapfinding to substitute.Examples Pirate (not a good one but no pirate Ninja), Sniper (no Sniping Ninja), No Knife Master, etc.
Only Stuff like Scout, Bandit, Trapsmith (not as useful for a Ninja), sanctified rogue, and Burglar.
But for Combat? Ninja is better. For everything else, the Rogue is better.
The Rogue can get the Ki Pool as well.
WRONG! a 5k gold ring that paizo printed gives the ability " trapfinding" as a rogue, so a ninja can disarm traps like a rogue can, and archetypes are mainly flavor only. so ninja is better in combat , in group utility,and equal in trap disarming.
I can't spot the Ninja threads
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WRONG! a 5k gold ring that paizo printed gives the ability " trapfinding" as a rogue, so a ninja can disarm traps like a rogue can, and archetypes are mainly flavor only. in combat >, in group utility>, in trap disarming =
Where is this ring exactly? There's something akin to it in the APG, but it doesn't give you the ability to disable magical traps.
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WRONG! a 5k gold ring that paizo printed gives the ability " trapfinding" as a rogue, so a ninja can disarm traps like a rogue can, and archetypes are mainly flavor only. in combat >, in group utility>, in trap disarming =Where is this ring exactly, there's something akin to it in the APG, but it doesn't give you the ability to disable magical traps.
dragon issue number ....325
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dragon issue number ....325
... Okay, so what you are saying is that, it's left up to IF the GM allows it? Not to mention having the money for it (which WBL dictates that you won't have the cash for it until level 4, unless it's crafted, then you can have it at 3, and that's dependent on the requirements for it) and someone that either has it and is willing to sell it, or someone who can simply make it for you? That's a little much, especially for a first level rogue ability.
Here's a better idea: someone take a level of rogue.
dragon issue number ....325
So it is a Pre-Pathfinder RPG 3.5 item?
Greg
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dragon issue number ....325So it is a Pre-Pathfinder RPG 3.5 item?
Greg
but it is still a paizo item
sidekick
... Okay, so what you are saying is that, it's left up to IF the GM allows it? Not to mention having the money for it (which WBL dictates that you won't have the cash for it until level 4, unless it's crafted, then you can have it at 3, and that's dependent on the requirements for it) and someone that either has it and is willing to sell it, or someone who can simply make it for you? That's a little much, especially for a first level rogue ability.
Here's a better idea: someone take a level of rogue.
.... how many magical traps do YOU run into at 4th level?
your counter argument is flawed, try again later
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.... how many magical traps do YOU run into at 4th level?
your counter argument is flawed, try again later
Depends on the campaign, I've seen them as early as the first session on two different occasions, both at level 1. Oddly, that has nothing to do with the reason I don't like starting a game below level 3.
seeing as though a ninja>a rogue :(
What about threads complaining about how rogues suck?? Are those renamed ninja?
That would just be counterproductive...
bringing up an obscure item that was made years ago to discredit a class isn't nice, and in my book, isn't a good argument.
Most traps I encounter are at levels below 6, because thereafter it normally is just too easy to avoid them, heal afterwards or whatever.
Also traps are often considered not much of a danger, as they are normally not deadly (no GM would risk the life of someone just because of a bad roll). So you can normally just wait and heal after tripping the trap. (yes, there are exceptions)
So, yes, altough I really really hate to say this, but I would pick a ninja over a (normal) rogue most of the time. Exceptions are if I would want a very specific archetype that the ninja can't get, but scout (one of my favorite) can be taken by the ninja.
I would love to see something done to the rogue to be just as awesome as the ninja. The difference isn't huge, but it's clearly there.
p.s. phantom, in my opinion rogues suck no longer after UC, lots of fun, they haven't a got a boost like the monk and they are still weaker than most of the rest, but they don't suck.
the rogue covers street urchins and beggars
This explains so much ;-)
Anyways, the Ninja is the new Rogue, as a GM I will give the Ninja Trapfinding and rename him Rogue and be done with the whole orientalism. Solves the problem of the UPed Rogue and the cheesy Ninja trope.
@MicMan quite a nice fix, got a few issues for archetypes and advanced rogue talents, but I don't believe it's overpowered.
and to all those who think that a rogue has to live in the slums and pickpocket his way trough life, while a ninja is trained by a secret society and beheads people with his shurikens, I pity you fools.
No Person got his class written on his head (except Rincewind, and he's got it on his hat, and with a spelling error) and classes are way more than their stereotypes.
but it is still a paizo item
That is... a very, very weak argument. Are third edition items still legal in fourth edition? Both were published by WotC!
Ninjas are fine. They are better than Rogues in some aspects, but those are on a timer ( when their Ki Pool runs out ), their action economy has been nerfed somewhat, Vanishing Trick is only rounds/level now and they have no Extra Ninja Trick feat.
Rogues still have far more versatility, tons of archetypes and so on. Knifefighter is a pretty big upgrade it terms of damage.
the rogue covers street urchins and beggarsThis explains so much ;-)
Anyways, the Ninja is the new Rogue, as a GM I will give the Ninja Trapfinding and rename him Rogue and be done with the whole orientalism. Solves the problem of the UPed Rogue and the cheesy Ninja trope.
As a result of another thread I was considering to change Rogue to a more warrior like variant, freely able to multi-class with other classes, including ninja.
Full BAB, D10 HD, allow trade Ninja Tricks/Rogue Talents for combat feats and count as a fighter of ninja level -4 for feat requirements.
In exchange reduced SP and SA : 6 SP/level, SA increases on 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th.
WRONG! a 5k gold ring that paizo printed gives the ability " trapfinding" as a rogue, so a ninja can disarm traps like a rogue can, and archetypes are mainly flavor only. so ninja is better in combat , in group utility,and equal in trap disarming.seeing as though a ninja>a rogue :(Untrue, unless you multiclass: you can't disarm magic traps as a Ninja.
Secondly, you can't get any archetype that requires trapsense/evasion/\trapfinding to substitute.Examples Pirate (not a good one but no pirate Ninja), Sniper (no Sniping Ninja), No Knife Master, etc.
Only Stuff like Scout, Bandit, Trapsmith (not as useful for a Ninja), sanctified rogue, and Burglar.
But for Combat? Ninja is better. For everything else, the Rogue is better.
The Rogue can get the Ki Pool as well.
Yes but a Rogue does not have to waste a ring slot to trapfind/disarm magical traps.
I think it is funny even though everyone says that rogues are so much better...my group still would rather have the rogue. The Knifefighter seems to be the current choice of my players.
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Yes but a Rogue does not have to waste a ring slot to trapfind/disarm magical traps.
That's the only point that hasn't been brought up yet and considering that it's really not that important due to the fact that you can just switch it out when you aren't disarming traps, it's kind of the worst point.
Yes but a Rogue does not have to waste a ring slot to trapfind/disarm magical traps.That's the only point that hasn't been brought up yet and considering that it's really not that important due to the fact that you can just switch it out when you aren't disarming traps, it's kind of the worst point.
Still it is 5k I can spend somewhere else. The Ninja is not so well done that it replaces the Rogue hell my group still would rather mess around with the Pirate, or the Knifefighter.
Samurai, Ninja and a lot of variant rogue are just the same classes with more damage dealing output. Nice, useful, but not very smart. Just more bloodshed...
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Samurai, Ninja and a lot of variant rogue are just the same classes with more damage dealing output. Nice, useful, but not very smart. Just more bloodshed...
Actually, I think the Ninja has better tools than the ones to help him kill people, creating distractions, creating defensive screens with smoke bombs, making those screens a more risky proposition with stuns or poison, crippling their opponents through stat damage, turning off a targets attacks of opportunity, and blowing things up when they must. They have a lot of control abilities for a "strictly combat" class.
It would be amusing if the forum had an autocorrect feature that replaced ninja with ninja in every post. :)
Fixed
If you look at all the 3/4 BAB class they all one thing in common except for the rogue. They all have some sort of supernatural powers. That can be spells, class features or combination of both. For the monk and ninja it's all class features. For the rest it's combination of class feature and spell casting. The rogue is purely a physical class relying on skill and mundane class features. So it seems to me the Rogue should be Full BAB class now as that fits the model. Fighters, Barbarians, Gun Singers and Cavaliers have no supernatural powers and are purely physical classes. I think the Rogue should be in that group.
Adding Full BAB and D10 HD appears to work. It improves the rogues average damage by about 20%. You can swap out the abilities of the fighter class for the rogue class almost straight across leaving the Full BAB and HD.
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Rogue Talent: Ki Pool
Rogue Talent: Ninja trick (forgotten trick)
Job done.
... The rogue is purely a physical class relying on skill and mundane class features...
Rogue Talents: minor magic and major magic are spell-like abilities, and the Advanced Talent: dispelling attack is a supernatural ability. And that's just the core book...
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Rogue Talent: Ki Pool
Rogue Talent: Ninja trick (forgotten trick)Job done.
... The rogue is purely a physical class relying on skill and mundane class features...Rogue Talents: minor magic and major magic are spell-like abilities, and the Advanced Talent: dispelling attack is a supernatural ability. And that's just the core book...
Except you need an 18 wisdom to even use the trick you have there and you've still wasted 2 rogue talents on something you get once/day.
Also traps are often considered not much of a danger, as they are normally not deadly (no GM would risk the life of someone just because of a bad roll). So you can normally just wait and heal after tripping the trap. (yes, there are exceptions)
Don't put words in other people's minds. I often use traps, mundane and magical, much as how I use save-or-dies and critical hits, which can also kill a lot of characters due to a single dice roll. And that's not including indirect traps such as Alarm or the like.
Rogue Talent: Ki Pool
Rogue Talent: Ninja trick (forgotten trick)Job done.
... The rogue is purely a physical class relying on skill and mundane class features...Rogue Talents: minor magic and major magic are spell-like abilities, and the Advanced Talent: dispelling attack is a supernatural ability. And that's just the core book...
You can't compared minor/major magic rogues talent to 6th level casting ability. You can't compare that to Abundant step or Diamond body of the monk. Or how about the Inquistor Judgement or the Summoner Edilon.
The Ki pool rogues talent is 1/6 the effectiveness of the Ninga Ki Pool. As well the rogue gets only their wisdom modifier (min 1) for a ki pool and can't take extra Ki because they don't have a ki pool class feature. It's just rogues talent feature giving them ki. Look at what it does compared to the ninja. Spend 1 point of ki for 10 extra movement. The Ninja gets 20 extra, and can spend it for +4 stealth, or an extra attack at full attack bonus which has no restriction on use with haste. So job not done, it's not worth taking as rogues talent unless you happen to high wisdom on rogue.
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You can't compared minor/major magic rogues talent to 6th level casting ability. You can't compare that to Abundant step or Diamond body of the monk. Or how about the Inquistor Judgement or the Summoner Edilon.
Sure I can... you claimed that...
... The rogue is purely a physical class relying on skill and mundane class features...
... which is demonstrably wrong. You can build a Rogue that way, but you don't have to, by a long shot. No-one mentioned the relative power levels of such Class Features.
... As well the rogue gets only their wisdom modifier (min 1) for a ki pool and can't take extra Ki because they don't have a ki pool class feature...
Which is interesting, since by the same logic a Rogue makes a better Ninja (in terms of Ninja Tricks at least) than a Ninja - since a Rogue can have 20 Ninja Tricks by level 20 (or 21 if human), and a Ninja can only have 10. There's an Extra Rogue Talent Feat, but no Extra Ninja Trick Feat.
Rogues and Ninjas are just different flavours of the same base class: neither is out-and-out better than the other, they're just better in different situations... which is how it should be. That fact that some people seem to have wanted the Rogue to be a pure combat class, and that the Ninja (arguably) comes closer to that than the vanilla Rogue, colours the perceptions of those people, but hardly invalidates the Rogue class itself. IMHO. :)
passes through the thread like an warm breeze
Don't put words in other people's minds. I often use traps, mundane and magical, much as how I use save-or-dies and critical hits, which can also kill a lot of characters due to a single dice roll. And that's not including indirect traps such as Alarm or the like.
Then you're either cheating, munchkining, or handing your players oodles of xp, because traps are encounters and have challenge ratings just like everything else.
I thought it was Gninja.
Hmm, I thought there was a thread here. I guess I was....