Magus6/Cleric3/Theurge7
Magus 6 for broad study.
Spellstrike with Slay Living. Harm next level.
Buff yourself in order to up your BAB with priest spells.
Building a proper Mystic Theurge depends almost entirely on the material allowed. There's some good 3.x stuff without which I wouldn't consider playing the class.
Incidentally, I'm currently playing a Sorcerer (shadow) 4 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Mystic Theurge 6.
Sorcerer/Oracle is really going to hurt for two reasons. 1, it leaves you with 2 fewer MT levels than a wizard/cleric, and 2, the spontaneous casting classes won't benefit from their "free spells" and will struggle with spells known. In fact, you'll only have 1 sixth level spell known for each of your casting classes, plus Cure/inflict wounds. This is also why the prepared classes have a better go at mystic theurge.
There's a specific brand of sorcerer (empyreal, sub of celestial) changes your casting stat to Wisdom, so you can pair it up rather successfully with any of the other divine casting classes. It'll let you keep half of your combo, the feel of spontaneous magic, and still get the benefits of a prepared caster- and you only need 1 spellcasting stat! This also nets you 3 sixth level spells on your divine side (2+domain) and two known spells on your sorcerer side.
If you absolutely can't be persuaded by logic (and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you're getting yourself into) your best bet is to pursue metamagic feats. Heighten spell is going to be great, since you'll have an excellent casting stat and can afford to cast offensively. Pick a theme for your character in combat: buffs, battlefield control, debuffs, save-or-die, etc. You've got enough spells known in your lower spell levels, 1-4, to grab some great utility. Spend all of your money making that casting stat stupidly high. Grab a +6 charisma item, the best tome of +cha you can afford, an orange prism ion stone (+1 caster level), get some minor defensive items, and spend the rest on rods of quicken spell.
Seriously, rods of lesser quicken spell. 35k means that you can spend a swift action casting any of your 1-3 level spells, which is half your list. That's two spells a round, and all the more reason to be a mystic theurge. If you're going to explore a clearly suboptimal choice, and that's what a mystic theurge is, you need to focus on it's one saving grace: lots and lots of spell slots. Pick up the quicken spell feat as well, because you've got spell slots to blow. If you do it right you can have the whole table looking on you in awe.
Building a proper Mystic Theurge depends almost entirely on the material allowed. There's some good 3.x stuff without which I wouldn't consider playing the class.
Incidentally, I'm currently playing a Sorcerer (shadow) 4 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Mystic Theurge 6.
Using alternate spell source or whatever it's called to qualify on the divine side?
Using alternate spell source or whatever it's called to qualify on the divine side?
Yes. The Alternate Source Spell feat and Magical Knack trait, both from Paizo, along with WotC's Practiced Spellcaster feat make for a viable, though feat intensive, Sorcerer/Oracle Eldritch Theurge.
Sorcerer(Empyreal) 4 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 9
Not sure if this is the most optimized option or not, i just found it to be quite a cool concept for a character. Sadly it lacks 1 level to get the most awesome ability a Mystic Theurge has...
what book is the alternate source spell feat in?
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what book is the alternate source spell feat in?
Dragon Magazine 325, page 61.
If this feat was designed for some purpose beyond making the mystic theurge viable I have yet to figure out what it might be.
what book is the alternate source spell feat in?Dragon Magazine 325, page 61.
If this feat was designed for some purpose beyond making the mystic theurge viable I have yet to figure out what it might be.
should i assume then it has not been reprinted in any of the paizo source material? just curious where it fits in in the scheme of things.
should i assume then it has not been reprinted in any of the paizo source material? just curious where it fits in in the scheme of things.
It was produced by the fine folks at Paizo for use in D&D 3.5; which Pathfinder was in turn intended to be compatible with. Make of that what you will. To my knowledge, it has never been reprinted.
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I have always thought the Oracle/ Sorcerer Mystic Theurge would be fun for flavor reasons.
Unfortunately as previous posters have pointed out you get hosed on spell level access.
For example, Oracle/ Sorcerers gain acces to 2nd lvl spells at 4th level, 3rd level spells at 6th level, 4th level spells at 8th level, 5th level spells at 10 level. That's for a single class character.
the Sorcerer/ Oracle Mystic Theurge is effectively four levels behind a single classed sorcerer/ oracle for spell access.
For example, single class gets access to 3rd level spells at 6th level, a mystic theurge would gain acess to third level spells at 10 level.
The only "viable " way to do that class combo would be to use the Gestalt rules out of Unearthed Arcana. These rules essentially allow you to advance in two classes at once.
but lots of good advice here. I doubt i could add much more.
I would make the point that the Witch is already a Mystic Theurge at level 1.A couple of notes for a witch theurge:
Go for a flying familiar, so when trouble hits it can fly the crap away and be less of a risk of you losing your living spellbook.
You can use the Eldtrich Heritage feat to get the Arcane bloodline's familiar ability to track your character level rather than your witch level. Unfortunately its a feat heavy patch.
Another patch is to go witch/druid and take a domain that grants a familiar (Frog, Eagle, Monkey and Serpent), this allows you to get your familiar to 6th level, then pop the boon companion feat at about 7th. This will get your pet to 10th level.
Eventually Paizo will give in and there will be a feat that makes your familiar track with your character level but until then thats all I got.
Not really, your spell list is lacking compared to someone who draws from two classes.
A single-class Oracle with the Trait "Dangerously Curious" would have Use Magic Device as a class skill. At 16th level, you could start with a "fist-full" of wands that makes your character feel like he's multi-classed.
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But wand DC's suck.
How about a Dwarf Celestial bloodline Sorceror/Druid? You can use high wisdom for both of your castings, reducing MAD significantly while boosting your second best stat and enjoying the handy benefits of Dwarfdom; as well as having a limited ability to channel energy despite no cleric levels.
There is currently no feat, trait or class ability that makes using sorcerer or oracle as one of your seed classes for mystic theurge worthwhile.
Not really, your spell list is lacking compared to someone who draws from two classes.
Lacking is the wrong word. Limited might be a bit better.
But with the core witch list, plus a Patron for focus, there is no one thing a Witch can't do well; they just can't do it all. But there are patrons for Buffing, there are patrons for defenses, there are patrons for control (they dont need a patron for debuffing or control though, really), there's one for full on healing replacement, one for shapeshifting, one for necromancy, and there's even at least one that enable's blasting. Heck, one has Planar Ally. Another has Miracle. Again, on top of the diverse core witch spell list, which has good divine and arcane representation.
They are a much better Theurge in play IMO than the Theurge prestige class.
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If you're going to play a Mystic Theurge may as well be able to do the Spell Synthesis (a better once per day quicken). To do that you need the fastest route, Wiz (Or Witch) 3 / Cler 3 / Theurge 10. It gives you a perfect setup... 7th level spells in both classes, Spell Synthesis, and some strong domain powers. Playing the other classes would lower your spell avail with little benefit; save working off one stat instead of 2.
If you're going to play the power game might as well see true power :).
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I was running a campaign through the Hook Mountains and since their was 6 of them, I had to add a couple of new siblings. So I made Death Baby Graul. Gravewalker Witch lvl 3/Menhir Savant Druid lvl 3/Mystic Theurge 2. Gave her a couple of vermin swarms [can't remember the type], and an advance zombie or three made my Mammy and she basically tore through the party.
The swarms and undead kept them at bay and the Spell Poppet ability meant I didn't need to worry about a Familiar and could use touch attacks at range.
Her Ogrekin limitation of Deformed Hand was reduced by her Prehensile Hair. Fierce Visage was a nice add on.
Place magic was a nice bonus to help out with the lower level spells she was throwing out.
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I was running a campaign through the Hook Mountains and since their was 6 of them, I had to add a couple of new siblings. So I made Death Baby Graul. Gravewalker Witch lvl 3/Menhir Savant Druid lvl 3/Mystic Theurge 2. Gave her a couple of vermin swarms [can't remember the type], and an advance zombie or three made my Mammy and she basically tore through the party.
The swarms and undead kept them at bay and the Spell Poppet ability meant I didn't need to worry about a Familiar and could use touch attacks at range.
Her Ogrekin limitation of Deformed Hand was reduced by her Prehensile Hair. Fierce Visage was a nice add on.
Place magic was a nice bonus to help out with the lower level spells she was throwing out.
You know, flavorwise I am drawn to the witch Druid combo, and the ability to spontaneously summon help never hurts a caster either, that to me is the Druids most over looked strength. An experienced player who knows thier way around a Druid can give a DM a case of the eye ball twitches. So IF MT Druid would be my choice, for the ability to summon allies whenever deemed it warranted. That with a few summoning feats (spell focus conj, augment summoning, superior summoning, and extend spell) makes for one scary PC, then add in the witch abilities - I might take fly so that I could stay away from melee, then drop spells and summons all fight long.
Remember, the nature allies will be significantly weaker than if cast by a single level druid.
I already adressed that.
...That with a few summoning feats (spell focus conj, augment summoning, superior summoning, and extend spell...
So even with the loss of a couple of levels of effective Druid levels the summoned creatures would be more powerful then standard casting at full level and stick around longer, and if they invested in a scribe scroll (Contriversial I know) they could stockpile the summons ;)
For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.
incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.
Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?
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For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.
Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?
Plus, who is to say that you don't go back and pick up 4 more lvls as Witch after you max out the Mystic?
Basically, the idea came to me because I wanted to make a Mystic Theurge that wasn't your classic Wiz/Cleric. Looking at the spell tables only Witch and Druid were viable options. Added bonus was I could add it into the campaign in a logical manner. The archtypes came into play mostly as flavor.
Oh I'm not knocking the Theurge at high levels; they have cool tricks and a wide variety; and 8th / 9th level spells aren't truly needed for godlike power. Was just pointing out limitations, though I forgot about Levitate @ 3.
I understand, but I didn't feel that a case had been made for the strengths yet either. Admittedly a person takes the MT for flavor, not optimization. But there is nothing wrong with that, and many times everything right with it. I'd rather have players at my table having fun and into thier characters then feeling bound to specific builds for "optimization," at the end of the day the story is the canvas and they characters are the medium by which the DM and players make art (hopefully).
For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.
Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?
Plus, who is to say that you don't go back and pick up 4 more lvls as Witch after you max out the Mystic?
Basically, the idea came to me because I wanted to make a Mystic Theurge that wasn't your classic Wiz/Cleric. Looking at the spell tables only Witch and Druid were viable options. Added bonus was I could add it into the campaign in a logical manner. The archtypes came into play mostly as flavor.
Very true, you could at the sacrifice of Druid spells, and if that is less important to the player, then go for it! I think the build appeals to me on multiple levels, it gets you in the MT class quickly but is has substantial flavor.
I always thought a Warmage*/Cleric would be an interesting combo for a Mystic Theurge. The Warmage part can dish out damage and the Cleric side can heal and handle a fair number of utility spells. I'd like to see one in action anyway. (Oh, and she can wear light or possibly medium? armor with no chance of arcane spell failure--not the worst build in the world, certainly).
*From 3.5's "The Complete Arcane"
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+1 to Witch level 16 as the best type of MT.
If your set on MT.
Cleric 3 : There is no reason to take another class. Oracle delays your access to MT. Druid has some nice spells but most of them are on the Wizard spell list. That means Wis can be your secondary casting stat. Using divine spells for buffing, and healing.
Wizard 3 : There is no reason to take another class. Sorcerer delays your access to MT. Witch guts your spell list and adds some divine spells that you have any how as a cleric. Using Int as your main casting stat. This is where all your offensive spells come from.
MT 10 : Because you want to be a MT.
If you want to be a single casting stat MT.
Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 4 / MT 8
Your max spell level at 16.
Witch : 8
Cleric/Wizard/MT : 7
Oracle/Sorcerer/MT : 6
Just ran some numbers and thought I might share them with the group. The biggest sell of the mystic theurge is the ability to cast more spells per day than anyone else, right? There's also the benefit of combining two different casting types (arcane, divine), but with the variety of spellcasters around these days and access to Use Magic Device it can safely be said that this feature can be emulated in other ways. So, spells per day- that's the big push.
MTs know that they're going to lag behind a few levels when it comes to casting, so pointing out that they're ~2 levels behind a same level caster isn't productive. What we can do instead is examine the amount of spells these characters can pump out.
6th level: The wizard casts 15 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 18 per day, and the mystic theurge casts 14.
10th level: The wizard casts 29 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 34 spells, and the mystic theurge casts 36.
16th level: The wizard casts 50 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 58, and the mystic theurge casts 74.
20th level: The wizard casts 66 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 75, and the mystic theurge casts 91 spells per day (if she went 13/17 split, otherwise it's 92 for a 15/15 split).
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How about a druid/sorcerer with the sage archetype from UM.
Primary caster stat of wisdom for both sides
Combination of spontanious and any on list prepared spells
Decent healing abilities
As stated above, pick a domain instead of a animal. Between the domain power and the bloodline power you can shoot a lot of fire darts and fire rays (for example, and admittably not super efficient at 16th level).
Just ran some numbers and thought I might share them with the group. The biggest sell of the mystic theurge is the ability to cast more spells per day than anyone else, right? There's also the benefit of combining two different casting types (arcane, divine), but with the variety of spellcasters around these days and access to Use Magic Device it can safely be said that this feature can be emulated in other ways. So, spells per day- that's the big push.
MTs know that they're going to lag behind a few levels when it comes to casting, so pointing out that they're ~2 levels behind a same level caster isn't productive. What we can do instead is examine the amount of spells these characters can pump out.
** spoiler omitted **
6th level: The wizard casts 15 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 18 per day, and the mystic theurge casts 14.
10th level: The wizard casts 29 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 34 spells, and the mystic theurge casts 36.
16th level: The wizard casts 50 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 58, and the mystic theurge casts 74.
20th level: The wizard casts 66 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 75, and the mystic theurge casts 91 spells per day (if she went 13/17 split, otherwise it's 92 for a 15/15 split).
Personally I think the biggest draw is drawing from two different spell lists. But due to the lack of a domain spell or specialist spell the gap of spells per day is even larger when compared to the witch.
Just a thought, but if you want a sorc/oracle stlye mystic theurge then you should check out this class by super genius games. It is pretty much that, but you know, good.
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Okay, I only came up with the Witch/Druid/TM as a cool character idea, but let’s for debate purposes compare it to Wiz/Cleric/TM [BTW, I still don’t care what anyone says, none of the other classes even compare to these two because of the nerfed Spell tables]. For the purposes of this debate we are only dealing with getting to TM so I am only comparing 3rd lvl with each class. There are too many other variables to come into play after lvl 16.
Druid vs. Cleric
• Each of them have the same Hit Dice - Push
• Druid skills are based more on rural environment while Cleric skills are based more on Urban – Push
• Druids get more skill points – Druid
• Same BAB and saves – Push
• Druids and Clerics have the same Spells Per Day - Push
• First lvl: Druids get Nature Sense and Wild Empathy while Clerics get additional domains spells/day and Channel Energy – Slight push for Cleric, but after awhile a couple of low lvl spells and 2d6 worth of healing are going to not impact as much as they do at low levels
• Druids also get Woodland Stride and Trackless Step while Clerics only improve what abilities they already have – Slight push for Druid as they are new abilities where the Cleric gets none.
• Druids can get 1 domain ability while Clerics get 2 – Cleric. Now I say domain for Druid because no one going for TM with a Druid is going to take an animal companion. At high level you might as well take a tasty one because it is going to get killed every battle and it would be nice to have some lunch afterwards.
• Druids can Spontaneously cast Summon spells while Cleric can Spontaneously cast Heal/Harm spells – I give the push to Druids here. Yea whipping out a cure spell can turn the tide of a battle, but a Druid can always memorize that cure spell and then in a pinch summon a creature with it. Extra feet on the battle field in my opinion is better then healing someone.
• Druid spells vs Cleric spells – At the core, you have to give the nod to Clerics. Their spells are more combat oriented. Still, if are you building for a character that is good at summoning, Druids can go solo a lot easier then Clerics.
So in the end, the Cleric isn’t that clear of a winner. In smaller parties or for NPCs, I think the Druid comes out a little on top because of their summoning spells.
Wizard vs. Witch
• Same hit dice – Push
• Same skill ranks, but Witch has more skills to choose from including UMD – Push Witch
• Same BAB and Saves – Push
• Same Spell progression – Push
• Witch gets Familiar while Wizard gets Familiar or Bonded object – Going for Familiar with either class just runs the risk of it getting killed since neither will scale once you take TM. Instead you can use the Gravewalker Archetype and get a Spell Poppet for the Witch and you have to go Bonded Object for Wizard. Now the Poppet allows you to use Touch Spells at up to 25’ while you can cast a spell from the Wizard’s spell book through the Object. I give a push here. Both abilities have their uses I like the Witch’s as long as you take Druid also because you can make a wall of summoned animals and then hit the enemy with touch attacks from safety
• Witch gets patron spells and the Wizard can pick an Arcane School – advantage Wizard. Both abilities give the character bonus low level spells, but the school ability, while not strong, makes the Wizard the winner here.
• Witch get a Hex at 2nd lvl while the Wizard get Scribe Scroll at 1st – Advantage Witch. Technically, the Witch gets a hex at lvl 1, but since you really have to go Gravewalker here, you lose that one for the Aura of Desecration. Now if you decided to keep the familiar….again, you get a first lvl hex and more bonus for Witch.
• Witch spells vs Wizard spells – Straight up, you have to give the advantage to Wizards. Their spells are more versatile a do more damage. But, the Witch is a nice compliment to the Druids summoning because most of their spells are debuffs and support spells. Plus the fact that you can’t just find spell books to get new spells is rough.
So ultimately, Wizard/Cleric/TM is probably the best way to go if you are looking for Min/Max, but there is more then enough power there for Witch/Druid/TM to not totally dismiss the option. Especially when making an NPC
Great stuff.
Good post, but a couple of thoughts:
1. You say advantage Druid because they can spontaneously Summon instead of cast Cure spells. Is there a particular reason that Clerics can't pray for Summon Monster every day and spontaneously Cure as needed as well? Or is it a SM vs SNA thing?
2. Scrollmaster archetype for Wizard is another option if what you really want is to minimize risk. It doesn't do that much for you at low levels but you have nothing to lose either (no familiar to get killed and no bonded object to lose).