I am hanging myself out in the minority again.Just because you're not part of the vocal group that keeps calling out for an epic handbook, doesn't mean you're the minority voice. Epic rules weren't that godawful popular in the 3.5 game.
For endgame bosses... make stuff up and don't feel bound by the rules book. The greatest challenge to a 20th level party.... is another party of characters that are run just as they are.
I dont think there is a question that people who like epic rules are a minority of the 3.x community as a whole. But that doesnt mean that paizo shouldn't take a look at them eventually.
It seems to me that there is the attitude in threads like this one (Epic, Psionics, Monster Characters, etc), that I didn't like the way they were done before, so I won't like them now. I say let's let Paizo actually write the rules, before we judge them. Have Psionics been overpowered and really overly complicated in the past? Sure. Does that mean Paizo's Psionics will be? Nope. Did the the Epic Level Rules for 3.0 get ridiculous? Of course. Ask Erik Mona about stating up the gods for the Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons. Does that mean Paizo won't come up with a way to make it a workable system that many of us will actually like? Nope.
Just because the rules/systems have been done badly before, doesn't mean that they will be again.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What always puzzles me about these threads is that, as TOZ pointed out, no one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy it.
I mean if Paizo decides (wrongly) to go with their own psionic system and not use Dreamscarred, I'd likely buy the book*, but the Pathfinder RPG Police wouldn't kick down my door if I never use it except to steal ideas from.
That said... to quote another poster, I'd love a 'Pathfinder Immortals'** book. Rules for divine PCs and the like.
*
**
For me it's about less complication and faster gameplay. Anyone who plays the game beyond level 12 or 13 for example can tell you the game starts to get bogged down between the sheer number of options, huge statblocks, etc. It's pretty hard on GMs in particular.
Funny thing is that some of the posters I see voicing their want/need for epic rules have also complained about the clunky high level play.
Could Paizo make an easier epic ruleset? Possibly, but I think 3.5/PF has limitations to make this a reality without a heavy redesign of higher level play.
I'd definitely pass on an epic HC, I would pick up a PDF though just for curiosity. Ymmv as usual.
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Count me in as a vote for Epic Level rules. Not because I want to challenge gods but because I want to challange the Baba Yaga, play in a campaign where Tar-Baphon returns, deal with the remaining Runelords or take a battle through the Worldwound and into it's source.
There are too many stories I want to play that would require Epic Rules to run.
I would also like them to come sooner than later so that when/ if Piazo does a Steampunk or other typed book that the very high level parts can just be included instead of needing a a suppliment after the Epic rules come out to bring it up to date.
And a very small part of me wants to quicken Wail of the Banshee ;-)
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We Don't Need No Epic Content
What you need is some education. You just used a double negative :P
I am hanging myself out in the minority again.
Judging from your tone, you don't need to do that. Just talk to people like that in real life and others will do it for you. They will probably give you a savage beating first, too! :P
I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character.
Too bad this is the first thread I read today. I should have read it after 10 pages of cheezburger comments. Then it would add some gravitas to my statement when I say this:
"This is the silliest thing I've read all day today!"
It's the old "I don't like something, and I don't want anyone who enjoys it to get to enjoy it, so I make up weird nonsense to make them seem like freaks so nobody thinks about their idea."
Have you considered a career in politics? I understand that this is a basic tool for politicians to control voters.
But on the off chance you actually believe this, here are my arguments against it:
Someone who "refuses to give up his favourite character" will simply play them in each campaign. They don't really care about epic rules. Even an epic campaign will probably end one day, so they will start over with the same character a bit later. It will delay the inevitable, sure, but that's not the problem with these people. The problem is that even with a 10-year-campaign, they will just go ahead and play the character again. So why would they want epic rules? They don't want to play their favourite character for a bit longer. They want to play it forever.
And there are lots of other reasons for epic rules: Some people like high level and think that the higher, the better. Some people want to go toe to toe with, or emulate, epip heroes and villains like Nex, Tar-Baphons, the more powerful Runelords, the ascended (Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, Iomedae, Irori, Nethis). Some people want to run quests of epic proportions, like close the Worldwound, Freeze Hell, Go beyond the edge of the Great Beyond, or other things, and they don't work at levels 20 and below.
And, yes, there are some who want to play their characters for a little while longer. Why did liking a character become a bad thing? And sometimes it's not the character per se, but the story, they want to prolong a bit.
And then there's the simple fact that level 20 is a border. An edge. A limit. People like to go beyond these things, plain and simple.
As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years
Oooh. "I'm old, I've played this a long time, I must be important."
As someone who hasn't been in the hobby for several decades, I'm telling you that your indignant shouts of "get off my lawn" are merely annoying to us.
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.
People who have more fun at 1st level than at 20th are idiots too stupid to understand higher-level rules because their math skills are so bad a first grader would laugh.
See? I can make ridiculous statements about people, too.
I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character. As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years I am telling you now that sometimes stories end. New heroes take up the mantle. Villains are vanquished and those who do the vanquishing become legends.
I've had characters whose stories were essentially accomplished by level 4. They'd completed what they set out to do and I was content to leave them there and move on.
And then I have characters I've played for many years whose stories still aren't done. Sometimes it's due to a campaign falling apart mid-go or an arc never being completed. Sometimes it's that whatever drove me to make that character in the first place has yet to be satisfied. Some of those characters haunt me, honestly, because I want so badly for their stories to be resolved even if I understand realistically, at this point, it will never happen.
You're absolutely right that all stories end. But who are you to say when that occurs for any particular character or group?
We all want Paizo to focus on the parts of the game we care most about, but let's be honest, the game would sort of suck if it catered exclusively to an individual and the very few people who completely agree with him on game development- if only because there'd be no one else to play with.
We Don't Need No Epic Content
kayoss darn it i already said that
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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(appologies all)
We don't need no epic content
We don't need no high level
No Epic spells in our spell books
Hey! Bulmahn! Leave those charts alone!
All in all you're just another line of XP.
All in all you're just another line of XP.
I don't need Epic content but I'd buy it if was there. I've never seen a game get to level 20 so I doubt I'd ever hit the epic levels starting from level 1.
(appologies all)
We don't need no epic content
We don't need no high level
No Epic spells in our spell books
Hey! Bulmahn! Leave those charts alone!All in all you're just another line of XP.
All in all you're just another line of XP.
You sir, are hereby awarded 3 internets!
For endgame bosses... make stuff up and don't feel bound by the rules book. The greatest challenge to a 20th level party.... is another party of characters that are run just as they are.
I agree, but take it one step further. If necessary, make the opposing characters better (within a certain degree.) The players used a 15-point buy? These opposing characters must have used a 20. Give them equipment equivalent to value and power of what the party is using--obviously this brings up the issue of what happens if the party wins and doubles their loot, but there are various fiats around it. If you're looking for a smaller number of really tough opponents, dig up one of the DPS threads and grab some builds off of there to put the party against.
And then, and this is the important part, play the enemy characters brilliantly. They are level 15+ just like the party; they have to be reasonably intelligent in order to get to that point and they have tons of experience under their belt. They are going to know the rules, use deadly combinations and tactics, and avoid gaffes that normal enemies might not. Utilize cover, concealment, threatened squares and initiative orders accordingly. Put the players up against opponents as devious as they are and the results will be suitably epic. Don't be afraid to kill characters and do so in ways that are very difficult to get around. Epic conflict usually has epic results.
- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
Those will never happen. Or at least, not likely anytime (within the next years) soon. Paizo only puts out rules that are supported by a setting. Golarion doesn't have room for the above. We might get some sort of space fantasy book (assuming the upcoming book on the other planets of the Golarion system sells well), but the rest of those are a non-starter until Paizo grows large enough to support two settings.
Some sort of mind magic (Vudra) and epic content (demon lords) exist in Golarion. So they will eventually get support.
I am curious what people want after the Advanced Races Guide and Ultimate Equipment. I think we will then be at a point where we have races and classes and gear fairly well covered. So what do people want to see next? A guide to higher level play seems natural.
I am curious what people want after the Advanced Races Guide and Ultimate Equipment. I think we will then be at a point where we have races and classes and gear fairly well covered. So what do people want to see next? A guide to higher level play seems natural.
That. I don't know what people want aside from that, if anymore books come out that don't cover diferent aspects of the game, there will be a LOT of rules bloat. Nobody wants that.
When I read the title I thought the double negative was supposed to be ironic and another vote for epic level content, but now I see that is not the case. I do not see the harm in having epic level content, I mean your complaining about something that doesn't even exist yet and may never exist. Also, if there is some crazy game breaking loophole (as if 20th level clearly isn't powerful enough to destroy the world) then its up to the GM to houserule it.
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Those will never happen. Or at least, not likely anytime (within the next years) soon. Paizo only puts out rules that are supported by a setting. Golarion doesn't have room for the above.
- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
Numeria says "Hi!"
...by way of a giant robotic scorpion with a couple of machine guns and some sort of energy weapon.
Those will never happen. Or at least, not likely anytime (within the next years) soon. Paizo only puts out rules that are supported by a setting. Golarion doesn't have room for the above.
- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
Numeria says "Hi!"
...by way of a giant robotic scorpion with a couple of machine guns and some sort of energy weapon.
I did mention some sort of Space Fantasy book might be possible. But there's a difference between a Numeria sourcebook that introduces some sci-fi elements to Pathfinder, and a full sci-fi rules book.
I would totally be good with the above books, I just don't think people should get their hopes up. Those are much more likely to be tackled by an interested 3PP.
(appologies all)
We don't need no epic content
We don't need no high level
No Epic spells in our spell books
Hey! Bulmahn! Leave those charts alone!All in all you're just another line of XP.
All in all you're just another line of XP.
Now I want a little demiplane to be in the sky.
yeah epic level content
but seriously how is possible that your game break before level 20?
the rules are not broken, it's just that you can't manage the game, as simple as that
and if this is not the case then tell me why some people can do it and you don't
yeah epic level content
but seriously how is possible that your game break before level 20?
the rules are not broken, it's just that you can't manage the game, as simple as that
and if this is not the case then tell me why some people can do it and you don't
Agreed. I've never had much trouble managing high level play. Hell, in some ways, it's easier.
I am curious what people want after the Advanced Races Guide and Ultimate Equipment. I think we will then be at a point where we have races and classes and gear fairly well covered. So what do people want to see next? A guide to higher level play seems natural.
I have a number of rulebooks I'd prefer Paizo produce, other than epic rules. I kind of take your point about not getting my hopes up and will presumably be "disappointed" in that epic rules are likely to come out before my preferred rulebooks do. My aim in these discussions is to communicate what I want - not make any demand or judgement as to what "should" be produced. Nonetheless, an expectation that I won't get what I want isnt a reason to not express my wishes - I'm far less likely to see what I want if nobody ever voices them due to considering them unlikely.
Some of the things I'd like to see would be rules on out-of-combat areas of gaming - social situations, rules for influence and 'political' campaigns, mercantile rules/adventures. I'd also like to see the kingdom founding/running rules of kingmaker expanded and developed (the way haunts were later revisited). Another area I'd be interested in would be rules/DM advice on religious campaigns - founding and running sects, dealing with schisms and heresies and so forth. I'd also prefer some planar/extradimensional rules as I find that area ripe with potential but difficult to pull off as a DM.
A lot of that may well be at least touched on in an Epic book - but the point is that I'd prefer those areas be extensively fleshed out at the expense of knowing what abilities a twenty-fifth level monk gets.
I am curious what people want after the Advanced Races Guide and Ultimate Equipment. I think we will then be at a point where we have races and classes and gear fairly well covered. So what do people want to see next? A guide to higher level play seems natural.
I have a number of rulebooks I'd prefer Paizo produce, other than epic rules. I kind of take your point about not getting my hopes up and will presumably be "disappointed" in that epic rules are likely to come out before my preferred rulebooks do. My aim in these discussions is to communicate what I want - not make any demand or judgement as to what "should" be produced. Nonetheless, an expectation that I won't get what I want isnt a reason to not express my wishes - I'm far less likely to see what I want if nobody ever voices them due to considering them unlikely.Some of the things I'd like to see would be rules on out-of-combat areas of gaming - social situations, rules for influence and 'political' campaigns, mercantile rules/adventures. I'd also like to see the kingdom founding/running rules of kingmaker expanded and developed (the way haunts were later revisited). Another area I'd be interested in would be rules/DM advice on religious campaigns - founding and running sects, dealing with schisms and heresies and so forth. I'd also prefer some planar/extradimensional rules as I find that area ripe with potential but difficult to pull off as a DM.
My main point was that any rulesbook would need to be part of Golarion. While I myself would like Epic rules, and sooner than later, I don't have any hope that they will come out soon. In two years at the soonest is my guess.
So your suggestions are reasonable. Books on Faction Building, Kingdom Building, Warfare (Mass Combat), Social/Politics, Naval stuff, Psionics, or Planar travel are far more likely to come out before Epic. But Epic is going to come out before they make Pathfinder Modern/Steampunk/Space Opera.
I wasn't suggesting that discussion of what could be done instead of epic was a bad idea. I was just trying to keep the topic on books Paizo was likely to actually produce.
My main point was that any rulesbook would need to be part of Golarion. While I myself would like Epic rules, and sooner than later, I don't have any hope that they will come out soon. In two years at the soonest is my guess.
So your suggestions are reasonable. Books on Faction Building, Kingdom Building, Warfare (Mass Combat), Social/Politics, Naval stuff, Psionics, or Planar travel are far more likely to come out before Epic. But Epic is going to come out before they make Pathfinder Modern/Steampunk/Space Opera.
I wasn't suggesting that discussion of what could be done instead of epic was a bad idea. I was just trying to keep the topic on books Paizo was likely to actually produce.
Ah, I misunderstood. Nonetheless, I dont quite agree with this either. :)
In principle, I wouldnt be averse to requesting something even if I considered it very unlikely that Paizo would go down that path. If there were thousands of people clamouring for a change of direction, I suspect they'd change direction (provided it was in line with what they too were interested in). Not getting the ball rolling on the grounds that what you want is far outside what Paizo currently do seems unnecessarily defeatist.
I am NOT saying no to Epic Level rules from Paizo, however, I won't support the release of Epic level rules. It's not that epic level isn't enjoyable or challenging, it's the work that is involved. Of course, the highest level campaign I've ever run ended at 16th level. I have played in two campaign that were Epic - the first was a campaign run by a guy who had just gotten bachelors degree in History that ran the game inspired by what he had researched about William Wallace...my character was Duncan McWolf, a sort of William Wallace analog and this was 3 years before the movie Braveheart was released. Duncan McWolf perished at 9th level, dying in the final battle to reclaim his lands from the usurpers. I miss that character. The second campaign was one in which we ended up hitting 11th or 12th level and prevented an Orcus like entity from destroying the world.
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The only issue I would dread with "Epic" rules to cover 21+ would be the dilution of what is "normal" in a gaming world like Golarion. It's interesting in a certain sense for a long-standing campaign to go beyond 20th if the story is there to support it, but if 25th or 30th becomes the new normal, that's where it breaks the continuity for me - especially if region guides and standard scenarios are written with that as the new standard. Epic is fine, as long as it's virtually unheard of in the world you're in.
It's kind of like having a Jedi knight as rare and special, but then you turn around and everyone is a Jedi knight. In 2nd Edition AD&D it was like that for me when Forgotten Realms came out, and suddenly every local NPC ruler/mage/high priest in a town is 14th+, almost as if the struggle for name level by the characters (9th-12th) was garbage. I didn't want to retcon everything I was reading, so I went back to Greyhawk :)
That being said, if an Epic Rules book comes out by Paizo, I suppose it's more of a GM problem to maintain standards in-game as opposed to a publishing problem with the book being out there.
I don't know what else you can offer a player after level 20 that doesn't rival the power of the deities of pathfinder!Perhaps people want to rival the power of the deities of Pathfinder? Perhaps they want to take the Test of the Starstone? Perhaps they want to hunt down and kill Achaekek, who is explicitly statted out so that he can be killed (Deities aren't statted because they aren't intended to be fought, but demigods are statted so that they can be--this is straight from Paizo). Perhaps they want to stop a Demonic invasion of their homeworld by travelling to the Nine Hells and enlisting the aid of one of Asmodeus's lieutenants (or perhaps even the deity himself) to take out the greater Demon Lord who is masterminding the invasion?
The limits of someone else's imagination should not impact the ability of my players and I to run the campaigns we want--or buy the products we want.
It should if it diverts finite resources away from products that A) appeal to a wider audience, B) support the publisher's business plan (can't wait to see the Epic AP -- 3 encounters only 'cause the rest is stat blocks), C)SUPPORT THE ACTUAL MECHANICS OF THE GAME YOU'RE SUPPOSEDLY PLAYING.
As if 15-20 isn't already Epic...
Just like to mention here that the OP is clearly a fan of OOTS, a comic which makes EXCELLENT use of the epic rules presented by 3.5. Jus' sayin'.
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How about we let the nice people of Paizo do whatever the hell they want? They've done a good job so far, as evidenced by the fact that everyone reading this is playing Pathfinder. So take you're Negative Nancy attitude elsewhere. K, Thanks. Love ya. mean it. ;-)
If you don't want epic content than don't use it. No need to say you don't want it. It's like saying I don't want to eat a burger. If you don't want it than don't eat it. No need to jihad against all burgers because you don't like them. .
When Paizo has grown to the point that they can say "We can devote resources to Epic-level play without taking them away from our existing lines" --> RPG, Companion, Campaign Setting, APs, Modules, etc., THEN we can adopt a "I won't use it but no-harm/no-foul" attitude. However, the Paizo staff have said on these boards and in interviews at cons that Epic rules would be a huge undertaking.
I don't want to take away from anyone's fun, but the potential resource-drain required to fulfill a niche-within-a-niche isn't something I want as a customer. It also doesn't sound like a good business strategy.
And I still don't understand how one can even claim to be playing the same game when you have to fundamentally change the rules because the math and mechanics you've been using for 20 levels can't continue a progression in the same manner. (Something else that has been mentioned in interviews.)
In the olden days of Dragon magazine, campaigns of characters claiming levels in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond were largely synonymous with another term -- Monty Haul. Sorry, but I'll never see the appeal of claiming to have defeated Thor or Desna or Lamashtu by pushing them off a wall or using a wish spell.
But on the off chance that "Epic-level rules" see the light of day, the next RPG book damn well better be a more traditional swords-n-sorcery treatment of Pathfinder. :)
I don't know what else you can offer a player after level 20 that doesn't rival the power of the deities of pathfinder!Perhaps people want to rival the power of the deities of Pathfinder? Perhaps they want to take the Test of the Starstone? Perhaps they want to hunt down and kill Achaekek, who is explicitly statted out so that he can be killed (Deities aren't statted because they aren't intended to be fought, but demigods are statted so that they can be--this is straight from Paizo). Perhaps they want to stop a Demonic invasion of their homeworld by travelling to the Nine Hells and enlisting the aid of one of Asmodeus's lieutenants (or perhaps even the deity himself) to take out the greater Demon Lord who is masterminding the invasion?
The limits of someone else's imagination should not impact the ability of my players and I to run the campaigns we want--or buy the products we want.
It should if it diverts finite resources away from products that A) appeal to a wider audience, B) support the publisher's business plan (can't wait to see the Epic AP -- 3 encounters only 'cause the rest is stat blocks), C)SUPPORT THE ACTUAL MECHANICS OF THE GAME YOU'RE SUPPOSEDLY PLAYING.
As if 15-20 isn't already Epic...
A) It seems as if a wide audience *does* want epic content. Nay sayers are the only ones raising a stink.
B) Your snark aside, there is a good chance that it does/will support the business plan. Until they actually produce some epic content, we won't know how much space it will take up.
C) Since you want to scream at folks to get your point across: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THE RULES WON'T SUPPORT THE MECHANICS BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST YET.
How about we let the nice people of Paizo do whatever the hell they want? They've done a good job so far, as evidenced by the fact that everyone reading this is playing Pathfinder. So take you're Negative Nancy attitude elsewhere. K, Thanks. Love ya. mean it. ;-)
This is excellent advice, they're certainly one of my favorite companies. One of the things they do well is listen to what people want - they're not so good at telepathy. Hence it's a good idea to tell them what our preferences are, provided we're not demanding something or acting through some kind of sense of entitlement.
A) It seems as if a wide audience *does* want epic content. Nay sayers are the only ones raising a stink.
B) Your snark aside, there is a good chance that it does/will support the business plan. Until they actually produce some epic content, we won't know how much space it will take up.
C) Since you want to scream at folks to get your point across: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THE RULES WON'T SUPPORT THE MECHANICS BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST YET.
A - No, it's just a vocal group. Based on comments by Mr. Mona, who had a big hand in the WotC Epic-level rules, it wasn't a big seller. My understanding is that 4e Epic-tier play has also seen little support.
B - Again, my "snark" was based on comments made by Paizo staff in reference to the size of the stat blocks that the 3.x Epic rules required. I WANT Pathfinder to be the dominant FRPG in the market. I want Paizo to have continued success. I don't want to see them sink a huge amount of resources into something that could hurt the game, the company, or the paychecks of the employees.
C - Again, per Paizo staff comments (noticing a trend yet?), comments/theorizing has been made that Epic level play would require different mechanics b/c the level/advancement progression used in levels 1-20 can't be maintained indefinitely without reproducing the negatives that the WotC Epic-level rules had.
I will concede the point, however, that I DON'T know that such rules would require a divergent path from the current rules. However, you also don't know that it won't. Given that I'm basing my supposition on comments made by the designers of the game, I'm willing to bet my supposition has better odds of being accurate.
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Point is quit whining, if you don`t want epic level play don`t buy the inevitable book that comes out simple as that, period. Many staff have said they will be doing epic play eventually, they`ve gone so far as to call it "a natural extension of the rules". Point is your the GM or customer just don't use or buy it and move on. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean others don't.
Point is quit whining, if you don`t want epic level play don`t buy the inevitable book that comes out simple as that, period. Many staff have said they will be doing epic play eventually, they`ve gone so far as to call it "a natural extension of the rules". Point is your the GM or customer just don't use or buy it and move on. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean others don't.
Thank you.
Point is quit whining, if you don`t want epic level play don`t buy the inevitable book that comes out simple as that, period. Many staff have said they will be doing epic play eventually, they`ve gone so far as to call it "a natural extension of the rules". Point is your the GM or customer just don't use or buy it and move on. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean others don't.
What if I'd like them to do something else instead? Am I allowed to tell them that or should I just be quiet?
Declaring a preference for something other than epic rules has got nothing to do with anyone else. It's about providing Paizo with feedback so they can continue to factor in 'what people want' in their decisions. If people only ever made 'things I want' threads and never expressed an aversion - how would Paizo know which is likely to be the most popular next book: an additional bestiary, sci-fi rules, psionic rules, epic rules, non-combat rules, steampunk rules or whatever? In my perfect world, Paizo would be able to produce all of those things swiftly - but the world isnt perfect and they (like everyone) have a daily struggle with allocating scarce resources in a way they judge to be the best way to meet their goals.
They will do whatever they do and they're not bound by any kind of obligation to the fans. Nonetheless, given they've expressed an interest in hearing what fans would prefer, what's wrong with telling them?
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What if I'd like them to do something else instead? Am I allowed to tell them that or should I just be quiet?Declaring a preference for something other than epic rules has got nothing to do with anyone else. It's about providing Paizo with feedback so they can continue to factor in 'what people want' in their decisions. If people only ever made 'things I want' threads and never expressed an aversion - how would Paizo know which is likely to be the most popular next book: an additional bestiary, sci-fi rules, psionic rules, epic rules, non-combat rules, steampunk rules or whatever? In my perfect world, Paizo would be able to produce all of those things swiftly - but the world isnt perfect and they (like everyone) have a daily struggle with allocating scarce resources in a way they judge to be the best way to meet their goals.
They will do whatever they do and they're not bound by any kind of obligation to the fans. Nonetheless, given they've expressed an interest in hearing what fans would prefer, what's wrong with telling them?
That would be fine, but this thread started with outright attacks on anyone that wanted whatever the OP didn't.
That would be fine, but this thread started with outright attacks on anyone that wanted whatever the OP didn't.
Sure, the OP was unhelpful and probably counter-productive.
What I was referring to was:
"Point is quit whining, if you don`t want epic level play don`t buy the inevitable book that comes out simple as that, period."
which I presumed was intended as a more general comment rather than just directed towards the OP. Whenever threads come up expressing a lack of interest in epic rules there are many comments along the same lines. In my view, what's missing in that sentiment is an appreciation of opportunity cost.
If Jeremy was purely directing his comment towards the OP, well I'll broadly agree that he should desist from making comments such as the one which began this thread. It seemed broader than that to me though.