We Don't Need No Epic Content


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Liberty's Edge

Throne of Bloodstone - adventure for characters level 18 - 100. Actually a very good adventure. The PC's have to steal Orcus' wand and destroy it by immersing it in Tiamats heart blood. Paladins need not apply (if you have played it you know why).

S.

Shadow Lodge

Stefan Hill wrote:
Just because 'leveling' stops doesn't mean you can't continue having rewarding adventures. I guess I just don't seeing leveling as the purpose of an RPG.

Yes, but most people seem to expect it. The ones who can just pick their preferred level and tell their story without ever advancing seem to be rare. Otherwise you'd see a lot more 'this is a 6th level game' advertisements.


Working toward balance is fine but if you focus on it too much you stifle the creativity and imagination of your players and DMs. 4E did this with a constant flow of errata and severely limiting magic items and feats and that is why I no longer play 4E.

In my opinion it is the job of the DM to watch for things he thinks are unbalanced or damaging to the campaign and correct them. It is not the job of the creators to find every possible uber combination and correct it. It is the job of the DM to see if that exists in HIS world and if he does not like it or thinks it is unfair to the other players then he bans it or changes it.

I do not like having a top cap on my Characters. We tend to play campaigns for 1-3 years playing once or twice a week and having a hard top cap is very annoying if you are near the end of a campaign and have to slow down leveling because plot is going slower than expected and the players wish to stay in a world for a little bit longer.

I do want rules for how to expand beyond 20th level, preferable with no top cap and leave it up to the DMs on how to integrate it into their worlds or not. The fact that they have not done this yet is annoying. They have a lot of material for up to level 20 but not even loose guidelines for going even to level 25 to give a buffer for long campaign players.

The Exchange

Actually, the CRB does have "loose guidelines" for going a little beyond Level 20 - see the core rulebook on p. 406-407. But they really are no more than guidelines.

The Exchange

Fozbek wrote:
...You'll have to decide whether you believe me or not. It doesn't matter to me either way; I believe me.

There, there, Fozbek. I believe you. I don't, um, care about the point at issue, but I believe that you're being truthful. I mean, why would you lie? What does anybody have to gain from lying on these boards? Do people send you money because you lied to them on the internet, and if so, I am King Arthur reborn and you guys need to send me money right away. For, uh, a quest!


No one said he lied. However, we all miscall things, much less things months back that you can not recall who said it or when they said it or in what context.

James , Erik and even Vic have said many times, across a dozen or more threads high level adventures do not sale as well. James even stated that high level adventures where in less demand in Dungeon. That is one of the first links you can find.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.

Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.

I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...

===Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.

Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.

I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...

===Aelryinth

City of the Spider Queen. Yup, another high-level one. Funny how the list keeps growing, huh?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lathiira wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.

Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.

I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...

===Aelryinth

City of the Spider Queen. Yup, another high-level one. Funny how the list keeps growing, huh?

Yeah. And if we throw in BECMI conversions, it could get silly quick.

===Aelryinth

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lathiira wrote:
City of the Spider Queen. Yup, another high-level one. Funny how the list keeps growing, huh?

(twirls his Groucho cigar) Listen, if your list is shrinking, you're doing it wrong! Unless it's a hit list. I was on a hit list once, but they missed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
*I* need epic content. My players are 14th level, and I don't plan to stop until around 25-30 at least.
Then I suggest you start yourself cracking. No matter what happens I don't see it likely that you're going to see a stream of 20+ level modules from Paizo... EVER. Even TSR and WOTC COMBINED only cranked out 4 or so at 18 or higher... and that's counting everything from 1st to 3rd edition. The only ones I can remember, are the Bloodstone series which had ONE module for 18-"100" (sort of)for 1st Edition, and Isle of the Ape which was an 18th level mod for 3.0.

As gbone said, I want a 20+ level ruleset. I have no issue generating stories and adventures for my players utilizing said ruleset.

And I'm no stranger to using an epic ruleset to its fullest. I'd just prefer to utilize a great one designed by Paizo than the poor one from WotC.


I would be in favor of a epic level book. Not so much for the "set rules" but for ideas that I hadn't thought of before. I never really remember anyone I've gamed with going off the standard idea of a character. If somebody goes of the idea that a fighter can only be a muscular guy in big armor carrying a big sword, then I would suggest 4th edition. It would be my opinion to do something along the lines of the complete series in 3.5, just add epic progression to the classes. This would give variants for all levels of gamers. And I do agree that it is up to the DM to control the game. No matter what level you are playing at, it is possible to have out of control power gaming.

Scarab Sages

I'm in a 3.5 campaign that's nearing epic territory (levels 19-20 in the party) and we're all starting to debate whether we want to continue beyond 20. The GM is bringing the current campaign to a nice stopping--huge battle with the big evil boss next session--but says he can put together a new epic plot line if we want to go on. Personally I find the high level play to be too much like a superhero game. It's interesting in it's own way, but I think that mid-level play is more engaging for me. You're not afraid of large rats anymore, but there are plenty of big challenges ahead. I probably won't run my current Pathfinder campaign up into epic territory, but I would likely buy the "Ultimate Epic" book (or whatever it gets called) just for ideas. Who knows, I might find the Pathfinder epic book drawing me in. We'll see.


Min2007 wrote:
It is exactly why epic level play doesn't work. And it is exactly why I call the epic rules the third nail in the coffin of 3.5e. I would prefer Pathfinder NOT put any nails into it's own coffin.

I feel the opposite; I think that NOT having Post 20+ rules for Pathfinder PUTS a nail into it's coffin. My table, already on our FOURTH campaign now is getting tired of having to stop playing at level 20. We're considering leaving Pathfinder because of the level 20 limitation. I'm hoping they do come out with rules for Post 20+ play soon...otherwise, we might not have many more campaigns left in us, having nothing to work for once they hit level 20.


TOZ wrote:
edduardco wrote:
I never understood why stop at such low levels and don't reach level 20, why do that?
Because they choose to. Because they do not want to play those levels.

And it feels like those that choose to not go beyond that low level want to penalize those that want to go to level 20 and beyond. Again...this is just an opinion.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Everyone likes different play. After running one high-level campaign, I'm looking forward to starting the next one, even though this one won't be finishing for some time yet.

Other people feel the "sweet spot" is something like levels 5-9. To each their own.


gbonehead wrote:

Everyone likes different play. After running one high-level campaign, I'm looking forward to starting the next one, even though this one won't be finishing for some time yet.

Other people feel the "sweet spot" is something like levels 5-9. To each their own.

Oh, I know....I'm just having a crappy day. Sorry to anyone it seems like I'm taking it out on them. I just...it hasn't been a good start to 2012 for me is all.

Again...I'm sorry to everyone.

Grand Lodge

If anyone wants to take a chance with it, Little Red Goblin Games came out with their own epic level progression. It's called Legendary Levels


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Merlin_47 wrote:
I feel the opposite; I think that NOT having Post 20+ rules for Pathfinder PUTS a nail into it's coffin. My table, already on our FOURTH campaign now is getting tired of having to stop playing at level 20.

But, as a person who would like epic rules as long as they're far different from the 3.5 crap and is otherwise fine with just 20 levels (because, I say, the numbers can be and are fun, but they're nothing against the fluff), AND as a GM who doesn't use the XP system but rather makes the characters advance when he feels that the players have truly had all the fun they could from a given level, I'd ask you: except maybe for campaign reasons (like you became the overgods of your worlds and had nothing more to do) why did you have to stop? Just because you won't add a new level, it doesn't mean you have to trash a character sheet as soon as 19 switches to 20, or just do a boss battle at 20th level and then adieu. Actually, that could be where the fun starts, rather than end, despite not increasing in level anymore.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

"Brothers I have seen a disturbing trend of late. Join me! WE must stop this vile threat of Necromancy! Or at lest make sure it has a sexy outfit."

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Kthulhu wrote:
The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.

Just needed to chime in here and say that some people think the existing system begins to break down and some people think that the only solution is to create a whole new system.

There are other people who, based on years of experience, entirely disagree with statement of such things as factual rather than opinion.

Just sayin' :)

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, because doing a +77 attack against AC 90 Turbodragon is sooooo exciting and feels thaaaaat much more "epixx" and different than doing a +7 attack against AC 19 Wyvern.

Really, totally epic. All the way. Howard Shore plays in my mind as I type this.


Higher level does not make it epic. I can run an epic game and never go above 12th level or 6th if I want to.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm a huge fan of high level gaming, as is my gaming group. We are just now finishing up Age of Worms (we'll be 22nd level) this weekend, and we would keep going with this campaign if we felt like we had sufficient adventures and rules to sustain us.

This isn't our first time at epic levels. We've done the FR Bloodstone series with 3.5 rules and Queen of the Demonwebs Pits (actually the Queen of Spiders supermodule) before that. But we had to use the 3.5 ELH and those rules were less than stellar, to put it nicely.

If Paizo makes level 21+ rules and adventures my gaming group and I will spend our dollars and our gaming time on them.

Good gaming to all,

DJF

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Higher level does not make it epic. I can run an epic game and never go above 12th level or 6th if I want to.

Hence my typical careful avoidance of the word 'epic' in most posts, for just that reason, regardless of the fact that "epic" has a very specific denotation in the 3.0, 3.5 and even Pathfinder rule set (look for DR/epic if you don't believe me).

Someone can always chime in and say "oh yeah?? well my level 11 game is epic!!"

It makes no sense for someone to chime in and say "oh yeah?? well my level 11 game is level 21+!" :)

@Gorbacz: Combat? Who's talking about combat? :)


I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a god


Really, reeeeeaaally hope we see epic level rules this year, or at least that they're announced.

So much potential there, and I trust Paizo to make them awesome.


edduardco wrote:
I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a god

But the point is, you see, those things you mentioned are fluff, not numbers. You can make epic fluff even at 1st level, or you could twist fluff so that you're a 1st level Fighter God. You are immortal and can't be harmed by mortals (whose stats and numbers won't matter the slightiest). And look, your sheet says you only have 14 hp. The same as what a normal 1st level character is compared to a normal ant.

Yet some people are desperate for those numbers that will bring them beyond the normal 20th level, changing nothing in the fluff that they couldn't have changed themselves without trouble. Ideally, I too want those numbers, but in truth they are all except necessary, despite someone desperately trying to sell that idea.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
edduardco wrote:
I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a god

But the point is, you see, those things you mentioned are fluff, not numbers. You can make epic fluff even at 1st level, or you could twist fluff so that you're a 1st level Fighter God. You are immortal and can't be harmed by mortals (whose stats and numbers won't matter the slightiest). And look, your sheet says you only have 14 hp. The same as what a normal 1st level character is compared to a normal ant.

Yet some people are desperate for those numbers that will bring them beyond the normal 20th level, changing nothing in the fluff that they couldn't have changed themselves without trouble. Ideally, I too want those numbers, but in truth they are all except necessary, despite someone desperately trying to sell that idea.

but what is the point or satisfaction of start as level 1 fighter god, I think is better start as level 1 fighter and gain experience (not just XP) and rewards and become a god 20+ level, then the fighter is a god because he won it and not just because the GM say "you're a god".

At least for me the fluff is better doing with rules, and yes I want numbers too. I like to see stats for the gods and similar entities, that the PCs can reach


I'm a relatively new poster here, though I've been lurking for since about 2 years ago when I was lured into PF after a long hiatus from tabletop.

Put my vote down (for what it counts) for Epic / High Level game play books. Please note, I'd much rather vote with my dollar and do intend to purchase any modules or source books that offer 18th+ level of play.

One reason I've hesitated in joining PFS is because it stops at 13th level, which is what I normally consider the lower end of a fun character or group.

-TimD


Astral Wanderer wrote:
But, as a person who would like epic rules as long as they're far different from the 3.5 crap and is otherwise fine with just 20 levels (because, I say, the numbers can be and are fun, but they're nothing against the fluff), AND as a GM who doesn't use the XP system but rather makes the characters advance when he feels that the players have truly had all the fun they could from a given level, I'd ask you: except maybe for campaign reasons (like you became the overgods of your worlds and had nothing more to do) why did you have to stop? Just because you won't add a new level, it doesn't mean you have to trash a character sheet as soon as 19 switches to 20, or just do a boss battle at 20th level and then adieu. Actually, that could be where the fun starts, rather than end, despite not increasing in level anymore.

It's mostly because my players do feel that there's nothing left for them to prove if they're already at that "last level". There's nothing in the rules for them to take on that next great challenge and not have it be a mindless slaughter. Overgods? No....my players will never reach that level; that's something I make clear in any game I run. But, there are many games that do require those "beyond level 20 rules" that just can't be done with fluff alone. Could it be done with fluff alone? Some games, yes; but a lot of the games I do run also require mechanics to support them, because there is some combat involved.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Don't forget that advancement is an incremental thing. Or it is in the games I run.

With an exception for a late player, we don't have anyone who sat at the table and created a 40th-level character. They did start at level 6. But then they were 7, then 8, etc. We've just been doing it for a long time.

When A PC is level X, level X+1 really isn't all that different, even when it's the jump from level 20 to level 21; all that happens there (using the 3.5e rules) is that your BAB and Saves normalize and you have new feats available.

Not really that shocking of a transition no matter what X is, and the same incremental change happens as your level increases.

In fact, I found the most tremendous ramp in power happened in the stretch from levels 12-20. The PCs are gaining crazy new powers and spells during that time. After level 20, it kinda settled down. A lot.

In my opinion (and it is just my opinion, and that's just because of the kind of feel I like in my games), a game where you start as a brand new character with a power equal to or greater than a level 20 character is an entirely different experience than a game where you fought your way up to that point step by step.

Frog God Games

Kthulhu wrote:
The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.

I agree and I think that's what should be done.

At further risk of being flamed, I think that it should be a post-20 alternate advancement system... something that many MMOs have looked into and implemented very well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stefan Hill wrote:

Throne of Bloodstone - adventure for characters level 18 - 100. Actually a very good adventure. The PC's have to steal Orcus' wand and destroy it by immersing it in Tiamats heart blood. Paladins need not apply (if you have played it you know why).

S.

To be a bit more accurate about that. It was an adventure for level 18 PC's and they threw in a few pages on hacking the module for theorectical 100th level PC's. Nothing in between. (mind of course that that there were no rules on how to BUILD a 100th level PC in AD+D.)

So take that 18-100 with these profferred pounds of salt.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TimD wrote:

I'm a relatively new poster here, though I've been lurking for since about 2 years ago when I was lured into PF after a long hiatus from tabletop.

Put my vote down (for what it counts) for Epic / High Level game play books. Please note, I'd much rather vote with my dollar and do intend to purchase any modules or source books that offer 18th+ level of play.

One reason I've hesitated in joining PFS is because it stops at 13th level, which is what I normally consider the lower end of a fun character or group.

-TimD

Some of us consider it the upper end of where all class types still remain equally viable for play and the fighters don't serve as cheerleaders to the all mighty casters.


LazarX wrote:
Some of us consider it the upper end of where all class types still remain equally viable for play and the fighters don't serve as cheerleaders to the all mighty casters.

So you don't want 20+ rules because you think martial class are futile past 12 level?


There are issues with the system past level 12. some small some massive and going past 20 just makes it worse.

Dark Archive

Necromancer wrote:

That said, I'm in no rush for a post-20 core book as there are so many things I want covered before that. Don't get me wrong, I eventually would like to see core books detailing in-game world management, taking over a planar metropolis, and deicide (especially deicide), but first...

- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
- a 'pure' magic variant (no arcane/divine/psionic/etc. just magic) sourcebook
- 300+ page dramatic/romance/mystery/horror/non-combat guidebook (complete with tables...)
- more bestiaries

This.

I dont need rules for 21+, We already never go past level 15. lol

I find myself wanting more ways and content to run Pathfinder as low-fantasy; Conan-Style, far more than I'm interested in campaigns where youre in a medieval fantasy world playing as superheroes and killing the gods to take their stuff.

Also,

vidmaster wrote:
double negative in the title... she does need epic content

Or possibly, she wants the rules for levels 1-20 scrapped, and would prefer to have all games start at epic levels. lol.

Ah, Grammar.


DΗ wrote:


Ah, Grammar.

WE HAS GRAMMAR CRACKERS. THEY BE GOOD.

Shadow Lodge

Does no one listen to Pink Floyd anymore?

Liberty's Edge

I rather see Epic rules. Sure I can use the bare bones one in the core book. Or the Epic Level Book from Wotc yet I think it's needed. Both 3.5 and 4E allow you the option of high level play. Like everything else no one has to use them but at least you have the choice. Not to mention I'm getting tired of reading up in the Bestary and other products of high level mosnters such as Demon and Devil lords yet Paizo cannot stat them up because of them not having Epic rules.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
edduardco wrote:
So you don't want 20+ rules because you think martial class are futile past 12 level?

I don't believe they are, but I do think that the entire d20 system itself begins to fail around that point, spellcasters or not.


There should be rules to support over-the top beings. The kind that can wipe a city, or topple a mountain. There are fantasy books about such things, movies, comics... some people want to create rule-compliant crunch for such things, such as DMs making Sauron ripoffs, or anime fans trying to emulate their favorites including scale.

It's not about the "+77 to hit" business. It's about being able to create big, grand scenes of truly earth-shaking strength and apocalyptic magic.

PF isn't really "complete" until there exists the means to emulate your favorite fantasy tales, myths and legends... including the grand-scale ones.


That is called level 20. By that point you are more powerful then superman really, wizards can shatter worlds, build demi-plans and all around play god. Melee classes can lay waste to armies, naked.

High level pathfinder has left fantasy behind and entered super-hero land.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

In X-man 3, Magneto lifts the Golden Gate bridge up into the air.

In Secret Wars, Molecule Man lifts an entire mountain range.

What level does a Wizard need to be to do those things?

Even if we stay inside the fantasy genre, there is a very long list of things that characters do that can't be replicated in 1-20 level Pathfinder.

Dark Archive

TOZ wrote:
Does no one listen to Pink Floyd anymore?

Oh. Now I've gotten the reference.

I dont really like Pink Floyd. or the Beatles, for that matter, so while I've heard their songs, I dont pick up references unless someone points them out to me.

Rolling Stones are pretty good though. As is Zeppelin. Personally if I'm listening to older music, I'll gravitate toward those, or some Iron Maiden or something.

Shadow Lodge

I don't care much for them either, I just like making song lyric references in common conversation. :)

Dark Archive

Darkwing Duck wrote:

In X-man 3, Magneto lifts the Golden Gate bridge up into the air.

In Secret Wars, Molecule Man lifts an entire mountain range.

What level does a Wizard need to be to do those things?

Those things could be very high level spells. Or High level spells with expensive components.

But if I wanted to emulate superheroes I'd be doing it in a game of Superheroes. Maybe M&M, or Aberrant, or Unisystem's "Beyond Human", once it comes out.

Dark Archive

TOZ wrote:
I don't care much for them either, I just like making song lyric references in common conversation. :)

Ah. I see. I tried to do that a few times back in highschool, but nobody got the references I made except for a couple rocker/metalhead friends I had, so I stopped using song quotes in speech. It just isnt as fun when nobody gets the references. lol.

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