I have noticed that in the APs, almost none of the main villain has their endgame speech written to be read to the players. Why is this so? Sure, I could perhaps write my own version, but it's for the same reason I'm not writing my own APs - I trust Paizo to do that better. There are speeches written in the APs for some other NPCs, too. And it's been done before, for example Demogorgon had an excellent speech (someone even recorded that speech and poster it Savage Tide sub-forum), so why there are none for main villains?
Maybe because the highest-level villain has earned enough XP not to let the party catch him monologuing? ;)
Honestly, it might be an issue of space. The high-level stat blocks in the last book of an adventure take up a lot more space; Paizo might prefer including an extra encounter with high-level baddies (say) than using the space to print a speech. At that level, if the party's generally going to be attacking on sight rather than pausing to listen to their enemy's speech, anyway.
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But come on, main villain speeches are such an integral part of the fiction, how can they miss out on them? :D I seriously doubt that there is no space for a short paragraph that would be a cherry on top of a regular cherry on top of the sundae of awesomeness that are APs!
If I was playing, it would kill immersion...fast. Now I have had some archvillains chatter away while the characters fought to reach them, but nothing stops the quicker player from clobbering them once in range.
As long as you include this, you're good:
"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"
Then shake your fist...
Good villain speeches are personalised.
I killed your father. And your mother. And when you were 10. And your dog died. And your parents told you it went to live on the farm. That was me too. Muuaha ha ha.
The only instances I've seen in any AP were from Runelords, and sadly they were... not very intimidating.
I rewrite them to my liking, usually to be a little more antiquated and a lot more brutal. If that type of script showed up in subsequent APs (or the Runelords Hardback!), I would be pleased.
Creative Director
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As the OP noted, we've tinkered with villain monologues before. We did a little bit more with them here and there (not necessarily at the end of the AP) in Curse of the Crimson Throne.
The reason we don't do them more often is that often it's really hard to do a villain monologue that...
A) Fits the accomplishments of the party and their relationship with the villain, since that relationship is only something we can make educated guesses about.
B) Won't annoy players. The "talking villain" is a pretty common (and oft reviled) cliche in movies, and as such, we tend to be wary about going down that route.
Ah, such a shame.
I don't see it as an often reviled cliche. It's somehow downright logical (to me, at least) that villain will have a few choice words prepared for the bastards who destroyed his plans for world domination/resurrecting an ancient evil/ascension while he waits for them in his sanctum. I mean, I also rage and seethe when someone does something that upsets me and think about what will I say to them. I'd feel robbed of the epic ending if a main villain DIDN'T have a speech. It doesn't have to be a long one. Demogorgon's speech had about 50 words and my players all agreed that it was the best handout ever (because I played the recorded version mentioned above).
As for the:
A) You can do a general speech, one that does not include their relationship, merely promising them very painful deaths (like Demogorgon did) or mentioning stuff that has to have happened in the AP (like Demogorgon did).
B) DMs that don't want to annoy their players are free not to read it and we who want to will do so. Just make it an option for those of us who want to make it as a handout to the players.
Me personally, I feel anything put into an AP by the designers would feel very forced. As James said, they don't know the circumstances that lead up to the PCs meeting the main villian, and from my own experience, this is HUGE. The games I've run that involved published adventures have almost never gone according to "plan", and so the less the designers assume the better things work. Room descriptions that rely on what time of day the party shows up at, or have monster positions listed, are wastes of space...as all the players of all the games I've ever ran have gone about things so totaly different.
Also, frankly the idea of the big evil guy getting up on his soap box to rant is so utterly lame to me that if Paizo started doing this I would upset enough to complain, and likley go elsewhere for a more serious game. Yeah, there's been a few badguys who got a word or two in before combat in my games...but it's RARE. Most of the time when I've tried this I'm interupted by PCs who say something along the lines of "while Mr. Blabbers is pulling a bond villain I'm going to start casting..."
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But then, the most memorable line to me, is from a Bond villain!
"You expect me to talk?"
"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"
--Goldfinger
Sorry, on topic, I love the monologue-ing villain, but I agree that putting it into the AP would be a waste of space since it is something that should come naturally. Every GM plays the BBEG a different way, with a different personality. It would be impossible to make a monologue generic enough that it would be fitting for any Arch-villain.
I think it should be up to the GM. The APs are there for GM support, but some things are better when custom made...
Just my twopence. ^_^
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Me personally, I feel anything put into an AP by the designers would feel very forced. As James said, they don't know the circumstances that lead up to the PCs meeting the main villian, and from my own experience, this is HUGE.
Agreed.
But a few choice lines for the villain to deliver wouldn't be so bad, especially if they were written as suggestions for campaign-specific improvisation.
For the big bads, once per book, a single paragraph on repartée to be read between rounds on the final battle would be cool. Keep it short and sweet, and give GMs a selection.
I think a paragraph focusing on the character's personality would be far more valuable. Something along the lines of "Bob the Evil is the type of villain who would spout bad dialogue through the safety of an illusion spell while invisible hamster ninjas move in on the party." or "Humphrey the Vile would taunt the party at every opportunity during combat, purposely playing the cat roll until they manage to bloody his nose."
Give an idea of what the villain is like, and I think GMs will easily be able to come up with a few words, should they choose to. It would also go a long ways in making the villains more interesting, and give the GM more ammo to work with in giving them a touch of uniqueness (another egocentric lowish midlevel wizard(necromancer) who doesn't fit in with society...)
Seeing as how my characters endeavor to outmaneuver and surprise ambush BBEGs in the end, I'd be a bit disapointed if they managed to say much beyond: "Zzz... Huh? Wha? What's hap... Who are y..." *thump*
While the villainous monologue tends to be frowned upon (or at least joked about) banter during a battle seems perfectly acceptable. Instead of writing a monologue, or expecting Paizo to write one, think about small snippets that could be inserted during the actual fight. You could always write up answers to questions the PCs might be tempted to ask, especially after goading them with a little something first.
The only instances I've seen in any AP were from Runelords, and sadly they were... not very intimidating.
I rewrite them to my liking, usually to be a little more antiquated and a lot more brutal. If that type of script showed up in subsequent APs (or the Runelords Hardback!), I would be pleased.
You should most definately share these. ... oh pretty please mister Lincoln?
Now I definately agree with where this thread is going. I tend to scour PbP games for a couple of choice lines to mince into my own performances. I usually like to get a feel for what I'm going to say so I can crank up the ham.
I think this and "scenes" added to the adventure paths could really add a lot. The most memorable moment any of my NPCs has had was Sherrif Hemlock interrogating Tsuto. My PCs saw a side of him they hadn't seen before, and they were pretty thrilled. There's a thread in this vein on the Jade Reagent forums at the moment, trying to come up with scenes such as these for the sake of NPC characterisation and prompting PC interactions and impressions. I'd been planning on starting my own in the RotR and LoF boards...
Now, this kind of thing shouldn't necessarily be hardwired into the AP, as people have been saying.. A line or two of dialogue would go a long way, though. My experience with RotR is it either came in blocks or journals or not at all, which felt rather mechanical.
But really, the best way to come up with these are for GMs to knock heads on these forums and share their ideas.
You should most definately share these. ... oh pretty please mister Lincoln?
Oh jeez, I wish I had predicted that someone would ask... it was a rather back-of-the-napkin affair, like I do for most NPC speeches. Next time around I'll try to remember to post it here.
One problem with villainous monologues, at least with my group, is the limited patience for them. My players, and I'm guilty of this myself, get really annoyed when the villain starts to rant. Why would our characters stand still and listen after all. We would be moving. And if we're moving why would he just stand there ranting (and trying to accomplish something while ranting usually comes across as silly).
For example, in a Trail of Cthulhu game we ended up getting caught by a cult. We were being held in a nice drawing room, tied up in comfy chairs at gun point while the lead cultist started her monologue.
GM: "And so once your friend returns with the blah blah blah..."
Me: Hey, what is she doing while she's doing this?
GM: Oh, she's walking a circle around the room, her eyes glittering with madness as she croons on about her god.
Me: I try and get my hands free while she's doing this. *Successful Roll*
GM: That's fine. She doesn't notice it. Anyway, she continues saying "The gate shall open and Azath-"
Me: The moment she comes near my chair I'm going to spring up, hit her and wrestle the gun away from her. She's clearly distracted after all, so it isn't like she's expecting it.
GM: *A moment of confusion before a shrug and a smile* Fair enough. You get a bonus to hit.
That ended the monologue quickly. Yes, it was threatening. Yes, it was well done. But it didn't make a lick of sense to just sit there and listen before trying anything.
Of course, our group is lucky that our GMs don't mind letting us do what we want to do and gives us the result of our actions for good or ill.
But we've found that a villain interrupted mid-monologue causes them to lose a lot of threat potential in the mind of players. After all, they were silly enough to think we'd just sit back and listen. We don't mind a few lines here and there, maybe a running conversation while we fight, but a speech just kills immersion.
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I like how Paizo doesn't include pre-showdown monologues, for several reasons:
BBEG: "So you have made it this far. I'm impressed, I wouldn-"
Player: "I attack!"
GM: "No, it's his big monologue, you should let him talk"
Player: ".... fine"
BBEG: "...I wouldn't have thought that you could defeat my Dragon or find out and even find the McGuffin that is My Weakness-"
Player: "So that's why we got that McGuffin?"
GM: "Yes! You need it to do more than scratch the guy. The king told you about it at some length. Why else did you think you moved to the Lost Continent and fought those weird monsters?"
Player: "The king? We met him? When you start talking for hours at a time, I get bored and check my facebook wall on my smartphone. It's a nicer wall than the wall of text you toss at us, especially since your monotonous voice will put one to sleep after 30 seconds."
GM: "To sleep? You know what, it doesn't matter. So why did you go to the Lost Continent?"
Player: "You said we were looking for a ship, so I figured it must be alright. We know you get that little twitch when we ignore the plot hooks you dangle before you, and you constantly winking at me when talking about rewards and gratitudes and lances freaks me out so we just play along."
GM: "0_o 0_0 0_o 0_0"
Player: "That's it! So, what is this guy talking about again?"
BBEG: "That was really a stroke of genius, I'm not afraid to admit that"
Player: "What was?"
GM: "How you sneaked into the Evil Temple"
Player: "How are we supposed to know that?"
GM: "He just said- no, wait, I skipped a couple of paragraphs."
Player: "How long is this speech, exactly?"
GM: "You know what? Roll init!"
Player: "Finally!"
Player2: "Who's this guy, anyway? And why doesn't he at least talk to us?"
GM: "è_é"
Well, I might be exaggerating for comic effect.
thats what happens with players, always strike first
You know, there's a fantastic scene in The Gamers which is just about problems with The Monologue.
Here it is. I think this shows the problems with gamers and monologues. Just hit play as the particular scene goes from 00:00 - 01:50.
With a "twitch n frag" approach, it's best to leave notes, journals, magic mouths and/or to have pre-written answers to various divinations (based on what your PCs can get their grubby paws on) that can be applied to one's villains - specifically, to their remains.
With a "twitch n frag" approach, it's best to leave notes, journals, magic mouths and/or to have pre-written answers to various divinations (based on what your PCs can get their grubby paws on) that can be applied to one's villains - specifically, to their remains.
Maybe on a sticky note posted on the massive foreboding door shaped like a demonic face that leads into his room. ;)
You should most definately share these. ... oh pretty please mister Lincoln?Oh jeez, I wish I had predicted that someone would ask... it was a rather back-of-the-napkin affair, like I do for most NPC speeches. Next time around I'll try to remember to post it here.
Drat.
Naysaying
Even you, James? I honestly think there are ways to execute this pretty well, and I'm sure there has to be a module SOMEWHERE that does it right. (My experience thus far starts and ends at Paizo APs, so I may not be the most reliable resource.)
Paizo seem to have a way of getting this kind of cliche right. I think people are looking at this the wrong way. These monalogues don't happen when the PCs break down the door and roll initiative. They happen when the villain has earned the upper hand. It's a simple matter of the proper execution.
Take RotR as an example...
Or, alternatively, she can ready an action to do so.
Her lithe, scaled body coils around your comrade's immobilized form, hissing as you approach: "Another step and he hits the cobbles!"
A sudden breeze blows in across the bay, and the tower lets out a shuddering creak in protest.
"Now. Leave this place, mortals, or your souls shall become an offering to my immortal Lord!"
Karzoug is even easier. Time stop is a wonderful spell.
The age old monologue is simply matter of wresting the control of the encounter from your PCs, or alternatively, positioning your villain out of reach through terrain, magic or strength of arms (read: henchmen with readied actions). This way, your villain has EARNED that smug expression. Should he be handily beaten in two rounds? More power to your PCs. This is the time to whip out the journals, notes and divinations.
Well, I might be exaggerating for comic effect.
I'd say not MUCH exaggerating.
But I might just be too cynical. ;-P
You may be right. My example included neither "I attack the darkness" nor "I'm getting drunk are there any girls there?", so it can't be much exaggerating.
Take RotR as an example... ** spoiler omitted **
That doesn't really come across as a monologue. It's more of a threat with flavour text.
That's fine, since a line or two is a free action. Monologues are those long, drawn out speeches in which the villain simultaneously congratulates the heroes for their accomplishments, clarifies his plan, and threatens them with death (or asks them to join them and threaten them with death).
For example, the Emperor gabbering on and on to Luke about how the Rebels have fallen into his trap and Luke must turn to the darkside is more typical of a villainous monologue. Now, if Luke was instead a party of 4 or 5, it's unlikely he'd have gotten a line in before they jumped him.
Repartée good. Monologue bad.
Having thought about it, I believe the first problem with this is the idea of a monologue itself. In real life people who monologue are usually insufferably egotistical and obnoxious. Listening to such a person makes listeners want to beat them with a chair leg to shut them up. Carry that behaviour over to an RPG, in which the players have the means and the mandate to act violently, and they'll do exactly that. It's human nature.
The second problem is the timing. Once the PCs are girded for battle and storming the BBEG's lair, it's already too late to start talking. Halting the impending action for a polite conversation is anticlimactic. Players will naturally resist such a tactic.
The solution to the first problem is to dump the monologue idea in favour of a dialogue. The solution to the second problem is to pick an appropriate moment and means of communication outside of the big-boss-fight.
People are much much more receptive to listening if they feel the other person is sincerely interested in listening to them in turn. This necessitates granting your BBEG's a semblance of real-world social grace. Have the BBEG engage the PC(s) in a respectful dialogue with sincere interest in hearing what they have to say. Have him ask them questions. People generally love talking about themselves, so have the BBEG ask about their adventures, how they came to be where they are, what they know about him and what they hope to accomplish. If you want him to try and sway/corrupt the party then have him try and find some common ground. Have the BBEG slip in whatever information he wishes to convey naturally into the conversation.
Have him start this conversation before their fateful meeting if at all possible; perhaps via intermediaries or correspondence if tempers are short. Careful in using those last two however; both have the potential to be used against your BBEG by wily PCs with access to the right magics. Consider having the BBEG offer the PCs an invitation to meet with him in a neutral and very public place for a civil conversation under the auspices of a temporary truce. Resist the urge to have the BBEG set up an ambush, but have him also remain wary of the PCs doing the same. It'd certainly be a memorable encounter; great foreshadowing for their eventual climactic battle once communications break down and an impasse is reached. All of this requires a BBEG with a certain level of sophistication and grace however.
In one campaign I ran I had a evil human necromancer raise a white flag when the PCs were laying siege to his keep and planning their eventual attack. He sent out an emissary with an offer to exchange his henchmen with one of the PCs so that he and that PC could have a peaceful conversation inside the keep to discuss their differences. Once seated inside the BBEG's study the necromancer went on to detail his plans for the surrounding area which he'd been trying so hard to wrest control of; he wanted to be able to monopolize a new trade route he wanted to open through the area. Unfortunately, since the party had succeeded in killing the nobleman cohort of his (one of the PCs' older brother in fact) he didn't have a legitimate claim to the lands which would have served as the seaside terminus of his trade-route. With the older brother dead, that meant that the PC was now the legitimate heir to that land and the BBEG was hoping to reach an agreement with him so that he could complete the trade route and they could share the wealth. The player was dubious, asking what the BBEG expected him to do with the money. The BBEG said that he didn't care; that the PC could found a university with his split of the profits for all he cared. Playing a bard, the player seriously considered the BBEG's guy's offer for about 10 seconds until he exclaimed: "Wait a minute... YOU'RE EVIL!!!" *magic missile* Negotiations sort of broke down after that, but it sure was fun. =)
This kind of stuff is largely dependant on the types of players you have and whether they'd be receptive such encounters; probably why Paizo doesn't bother trying to write them into their APs.
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Well, I might be exaggerating for comic effect.
I'd say not MUCH exaggerating.
But I might just be too cynical. ;-P
If after the big speak from Vecna one of the player agree to serve her .....
Player A - I agree,
Player B - Me too!
.....
GM as Vecna: You two can fight to see who will serve me.
Witnessed as a spectator.
Speeches from the BBEG rarely works. Or the player launch a pre-emptive strike or the BEEG should be the one launching it.
Death speeches are rarely better. Really the guy I have just disintegrated/incinerated/brought a -40 ho has the time for a 10 minutes speech?
If he has the strength for that he can be still dangerous, so adding a bit more damage is mandatory.
I am not there for listening to the opera where a damsel dying from consumption has the strength to sing a whole aria.
I am not there for listening to the opera where a damsel dying from consumption has the strength to sing a whole aria.
Exactly. I don't mind monologues in video games. I can just click until I get past them if I find them boring or tedious. In movies, they're just part of dramatic tension, so long as they're done well.
If I'm making the decisions though, and staying in character, justifying listening is almost impossible. Even if I can get the players to hold off from attacking by stating "He's monologuing, you can't attack yet", they'll interrupt him and try to debate him and say where he's wrong while he's in the middle of a line.
Death speeches seem to get a little more acceptance though, so long as it isn't more than a few short, poignant lines. The moment it starts to become a soliloquy is when players start stabbing the body.
Solution! Monologue is a spell typically known by BBEGs!
Solution! Monologue is a spell typically known by BBEGs!
*Hour 2 of Monologue*
Player: Why is he still going?! I fall on my sword to end the pain!
Solution! Monologue is a spell typically known by BBEGs!
This exact spell already exists actually. Just don't count on all of the PCs failing the saving throw. There's also nothing stopping them from heckling the BBEG. Perhaps a harder to resist higher-level version of the spell could be researched.
Solution! Monologue is a spell typically known by BBEGs!This exact spell already exists actually. Just don't expect all of the PCs to fail their saving throws and there's still nothing stopping them from heckling the BBEG.
Well shoot...and here I thought I was being witty...
and here I thought I was being witty...
That's the second classic BBEG mistake. ;)
and here I thought I was being witty...That's the second classic BBEG mistake. ;)
We had BBEGs almost dying with shame because some of the characters (or, rather, the players) were more witty than the BBEG.
BBEG: "I gather you are dying to find out who is hunting down your people. Your search is over. Here I am. Well, not me personally - I have my people for wetwork - my companion here, for example, has dozens of marks on his blade, though he doesn't *have* a blade"
Player "I see, a cunning linguist!"
All players *nearly falling off their chairs laughing
BBEG: (annoyed) "Kill the bastards
And then there was this guy who was taunting from the roof of a nearby building (thinking he was safe), but he stopped mid-sentence to roll on the floor laughing (an enemy with more hideous laughter than patience for your self-important speech is a bad thing, as it seriously cramps your style!)
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I like to keep this template handy:
So… fill in name(s) here…
We meet
a. Again!
b. At last!
c. Again, at last!
For too long you have
a. Been a thorn in my side.
b. Interfered with my plans.
c. Taken the last of the Pringles from the can.
Now, you will bear witness to
a. My genius
b. The ultimate defeat of all that is good
c. My bare rear end
As I
a. Throw the switch
b. Cast the spell
c. Complete the ritual
That will herald
a. My ultimate triumph!
b. The end of the world!
c. A sale at Penney’s!
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I have found the solution, a new spell like power for BEEGs:
Project Voice: CT 1 swift action, area of effect: see description Duration 1 hour for each module in the AP/chain of adventures already done (defined as "level of the module").
To determine the area of effect of the spell the caster need to "mark" the boundaries of an area claiming it a his. The methods to do that vary with the nature of a BEEG, a werewolf would use the method suggested by his canine nature while a evil cultist can sacrifice a innocent infant at every corner of his cathedral. The area of effect can't be larger than 100x100x100 yards per level of the module.
After the caster has marked the territory he can cast "Project Voice".
While the spell is in effect the caster can project his voice in every room of the building (all of them at the same time, he can't project his voice in only a few selected rooms) to be heard by all the occupants.
Even if some room or section of the area was blocked by anti magic effects, silence spell and other effects blocking the generation of sound, the caster voice can still be heard coming from the other parts of the affected area, often with weird reverberating effects similar to those of a low quality public address systems used at school.
Repeated exposure to this spell can cause intelligence and charisma damage, loss of will to live and homicidal surges.
With this spell, as soon as the BEEG suspect the PC have infiltrated his building he, she or it can start his great speech without the risk to be killed before he has completed it.
It has the added bonus that it will push the BEEG minions to a homicidal frenzy in the attempt to kill the intruders that ave started the big speech again.
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I like to keep this template handy:
So… fill in name(s) here…
We meet
a. Again!
b. At last!
c. Again, at last!For too long you have
a. Been a thorn in my side.
b. Interfered with my plans.
c. Taken the last of the Pringles from the can.Now, you will bear witness to
a. My genius
b. The ultimate defeat of all that is good
c. My bare rear endAs I
a. Throw the switch
b. Cast the spell
c. Complete the ritualThat will herald
a. My ultimate triumph!
b. The end of the world!
c. A sale at Penney’s!
I think I got confused. I took a d3 and rolled a speech, but I got this:
"We meet at last - Again! For too long you have been a thorn in my rear end. Now you will witness a bear throwing a switch at my bare end that will herald my ultimate sale."
I actually like to monologue but only if it's not something like the random speech generator above. I also kind of expect my PCs to jump in to fight, but they're courteous enough most of the time to wait and then talk to the bad guys. Lord knows it's probably the only time they'll be able to exchange dialogue between them, especially since 90% of the Adventure Path tactics for big bad guys start with things like "They attack as soon as possible/they use an ambush tactic" and have things like "they refuse to speak/do not say a word/etc." in them... despite the fact that these same BBEGs have like entire pages dedicated to their backstory or entire books of the PCs chasing them down and following their path of carnage, eager to avenge the downtrodden. At that point I'm pretty sure if it was just "encounter with guy who doesn't talk" it would just be underwhelming as hell.
I was actually rather surprised when a villain in Carrion Crown who had severely wronged the party got to walk away. "Come. I'll show you death. I'll show you hell." He turned and left. I paused for a good five seconds, looked around the table, and had him go back inside.
Maybe it's time to begin the next monologue with "You should never let me talk!" and a maximized spell.
I don't understand. Where did he go? Why did you have him leave? Why did he go back?
Are you talking about
?
I don't understand. Where did he go? Why did you have him leave? Why did he go back?
Are you talking about
** spoiler omitted **
?
To be fair, I was going to have him come out and swoop into the PCs if they tried to attack Auren, but, well... they didn't. And the golem just kind of came out, like, "Yup. I'm here."
I like to keep this template handy:
So… fill in name(s) here…
We meet
a. Again!
b. At last!
c. Again, at last!For too long you have
a. Been a thorn in my side.
b. Interfered with my plans.
c. Taken the last of the Pringles from the can.Now, you will bear witness to
a. My genius
b. The ultimate defeat of all that is good
c. My bare rear endAs I
a. Throw the switch
b. Cast the spell
c. Complete the ritualThat will herald
a. My ultimate triumph!
b. The end of the world!
c. A sale at Penney’s!
I think I got confused. I took a d3 and rolled a speech, but I got this:
"We meet at last - Again! For too long you have been a thorn in my rear end. Now you will witness a bear throwing a switch at my bare end that will herald my ultimate sale."
I love you guys.
With a "twitch n frag" approach, it's best to leave notes, journals, magic mouths and/or to have pre-written answers to various divinations (based on what your PCs can get their grubby paws on) that can be applied to one's villains - specifically, to their remains.Maybe on a sticky note posted on the massive foreboding door shaped like a demonic face that leads into his room. ;)
Three varieties:
1.) In teeny tiny print: "I prepared explosive runes."2.) symbol of death.
3.) "To-do" list, all items but 'kill the big d@mn heroes' scratched off.