I'm currently organizing a campaign in which the "end boss" is a powerful lich. However, I'm curious about the phylactery itself. I know the Craft Wondrous Item feat is required for the creation, but I'm wondering if other attributes could be tacked onto it. For instance, using the Magic Items chapter in the Core Rulebook, is it possible/feasible for the lich to make his phylactery an Intelligent item and/or a Cursed item on top of the normal costs it. I guess what I'm aiming for is something less along the lines of a hidden object that prevents the lich from being killed and more akin to The One Ring, an item that can actually influence the person who carries it.
The rules doesn't specifically say that a phylactery is treated any different than any other magic item. So, in theory you should be able to stack different abilities on to a phylactery as you could with any other magic item. This isn't going so far beyond the normal rules that players should balk at the idea. Actually, it makes sense on many levels.
The only problem might be how much gold it would cost to make such an item. If you give it enough powers, it might be powerful enough to rate a CR change to the lich. For a campaign's ultimate end boss, an artifact level magic item isn't necessarily unwarranted.
I haven't looked too extensively into the whole item creation thing. So at what point (gp-wise) do you think a phylactery would become powerful enough to warrant a CR bump for the lich? For an Intelligent Phylactery with Int, Wis, and Cha at 10, the base cost would be 120,500 gp. Also, I know the 3.5 Forgotten Realms setting had an epic-level spell that allowed the lich to create multiple phylacteries. Would there be any way of transferring that into the Pathfinder system, or would it be more of a plot device?
Multiple phylacteries--plot device--we shall call them horcruxes. :-)
I would hate to put a specific gp value to that as certain powers can be more or less powerful than their gp value would suggest. If I had to pick a number, I would go with the general rule that if the lich has gp value equal to a character per the wealth by level table it rates a +1 CR bump (don't include the 120,000gp in this).
I would transfer the feat. Changing 3.5 to Pathfinder should be straightforward, many don't need any modifications. This means he is giving up an epic feat to have this ability, which means he will be much harder to destroy, but will have to give up some other power.
If we are talking epic feats, what CR were you looking to create?
I always felt that the lich wanted the phylactery to be far away from him in a safe place? If the lich dies and his phylactery is around his neck he's screwed. If the phylactery is somewhere hidden on the other hand then the adventurers only have a few days to find it before the lich comes back to un-life then proceeds to wreck them.
It's a tossup. If it's close, then the lich will respawn in/near his lair, with access to all his resources. If it's far away, he doesn't have that. But if it's close, it's easier to find, and if it's far away, he's pretty safe. Disguising it as treasure may also make the PCs take it with them, rather than destroy it, as they don't realize it's actually the phylactery. I'm not sure how detectable they are, but a permanent magic aura spell should hide it.
I don't think that making the phylactery into a magic item by itself would require raising the CR, even if it's intelligent. Now if by making it into a magic item or artifact you made the requirements to destroy it greater, that's another matter.
Using a intelligent ring of alignment change/invisibility as a phylactery probably shouldn't raise the CR, requiring the PCs to travel to a volcano within spitting distance of a evil demi-god's fortress to destroy it should.
Another reason to raise the CR would be if the phylactery is capable of fighting alongside it's owner, like the Forgotten Realms lich who used an intelligent Iron Golem as it's phylactery.
This won't really help for a story line (since presumably you want the heroes to eventually win), but if I were a litch I would put my phalacry inside a pocket plane, inside another pocket plane (about 7 layers deep), and my phalcary would be at the heart of the nasties construct I could come up with. Oh, and each of the layers are teleport bloccked for everyone except me (the lich). Liches are mean.
I heard talk about my thread :)
But perhaps you could have an intelligent, animated phylactery as a cohort?
I had Lich in a prior game pass a +5 etc. sword to the party's Paladin. It was so over the top powerful, the lich effectively had a level 12 bodyguard for his artifact!
Okay, two more questions on this subject: 1) how would you determine the Caster Level of an intelligent phylactery? and 2) does destroying the phylactery slay the lich outright, or does it just make it impossible for the lich to come back after a defeat?
1: Usually the Casting level is determined by the level required to create the Item... that is: If it has enchantments, powers, and the like requiring a minimum level of 12, then it is level a level 12 casting level item... BUT! It can be as high as the caster that created it...
That is to say, as a level 27 Epic Wizard, you can create a +1 mundane Longsword that had a caster level of 27.... Why, who the heck knows...
2: Destroying the Phylactery kills the lich outright. the lich's soul or essence is linked directly to it's phylactery, and thus destroying it is much like destroying the body of a human. Unfortunately for a lich, destroying a phylactery destroys it's soul permanently, making it utterly impossible for him to ever be resurrected, etc.
Now...If you are asking (for #1) what level spells the item can cast,then the answer is: none. Unless you manage to give the item class levels, it does not have access to a spell casting ability.
Now there is an interesting thought. A Lich's Phylactery:
Int. 17
Wis. 17
Cha. 10
(three random abilities, speech, telepathy, etc)
Then... Give it class levels. lets say.... Level 6 Wizard...
You do the math, and footwork on the spells, but you basically get an awesome backup character to support your lich,and if s#+& gets real.. he can animate his flying butt out of the room and flee.
Coming in late as usual, but I would not add to the CR of the lich in this case. I would adjust the lich's magical items and/or treasure to compensate. For instance, if it is cursed, just consider it one of his weapons when you are building him, and lessen the number of weapons and or disposable items (wands, staves, etc.) or the number of charges left in them, to compensate for the cost of the augmented phylactery per the NPC treasure/equipment rules.
I'm rambling, but you get what I mean.
As far as I have read, destruction of the phylactery does not harm the lich in any way. It only proves to be a problem for the lich if the lich's body is destroyed, because without the phylactery, the lich has no second chance. If the lich is still active and embodied, it can simply take the time and expense to craft another phylactery should the first be destroyed.
That was my understanding.
As far as I have read, destruction of the phylactery does not harm the lich in any way. It only proves to be a problem for the lich if the lich's body is destroyed, because without the phylactery, the lich has no second chance. If the lich is still active and embodied, it can simply take the time and expense to craft another phylactery should the first be destroyed.That was my understanding.
I believe the original question was, what if the OP adds another power or a curse to the phylactery, that can affect or be used against/by the party after they defeat the lich?
The question was not whether a lich could build another, but whether adding such extras to the phylactery:
A. Is possible, via the rules.
B. Should affect the lich's CR.
Most of us agree it is possible, via the rules. Some seem to think it might affect the CR. I happen to think you don't need to change the CR, but could instead subtract other magical items from the lich's arsenal to make up the difference, depending on the potency of the powers added.
If I were making an NPC lich, I would give him a golem that also functioned as construct armor (UM)--something that is not at all obvious to anyone but the lich. Simply place the phylactery inside the golem, where it is untouchable until the golem is destroyed. Hide the golem somewhere safe.
Should the lich ever be destroyed, he regenerates inside his construct armor. He has both instant protection and a worthy bodyguard until such a time that he can re-equip more fully and get his revenge.
If the PCs find the golem in advance, they will not be able to detect the phylactery inside (the armor is too thick for many divinations) and may even attempt to claim it as a prize. Little do they know that there newfound treasure/servant which will turn on them once the lich reforms inside and takes control of it.
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Now there is an interesting thought. A Lich's Phylactery:
Int. 17
Wis. 17
Cha. 10(three random abilities, speech, telepathy, etc)
Then... Give it class levels. lets say.... Level 6 Wizard...
I don't think intelligent items can have class levels, but they certainly can use a few spell-like abilities which might be useful in preserving itself.
I'm now picturing a lich with an intelligent phylactery having to sit there and listen to it while he respawns: "Did you go and get yourself destroyed again? Why must I do all the work around here? Next time, be more careful. This isn't pleasant, you know!"
If I were making an NPC lich, I would give him a golem that also functioned as construct armor (UM)--something that is not at all obvious to anyone but the lich. Simply place the phylactery inside the golem, where it is untouchable until the golem is destroyed. Hide the golem somewhere safe.
Should the lich ever be destroyed, he regenerates inside his construct armor. He has both instant protection and a worthy bodyguard until such a time that he can re-equip more fully and get his revenge.
If the PCs find the golem in advance, they will not be able to detect the phylactery inside (the armor is too thick for many divinations) and may even attempt to claim it as a prize. Little do they know that there newfound treasure/servant which will turn on them once the lich reforms inside and takes control of it.
If I ever play a lich as a PC (doubtful) than I am totally stealing this idea. Add to that a fake phylactery and we're golden.
Also I'd put the golem in a secret chest (so it gets lost on the astral plane) and a plane shift scroll in the box, and give the golem a teleport(orplaneshift to somewhere specific on the material) contingency so if by some miracle the chest is discovered the golem is still safe. Of course some sort of notification system in case of discovery would be needed.
edit: also making the golem an inteligent item with sentience and some good SLA's wouldnt hurt.
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Meanest ever used on me was a phlactery that also contained the sould of an innocent 7 year old elven princess. Do if we destroyed the it and the lich's soul we destroyed her soul also.
Damned if you do damned if you don't.
So we were running around trying to figure out how to get he soul out without destroying it. The lich kept regenerating and we kept having to kill it. It kept changing it's tactics on what to hit us with.
Did I mention, it was a giant adamantine sailing vessel anchor that we had to keep hauling alover the place.
GM was laughing his ash off.
Eventually our wizard blew his stack after the 2nd time he was killed and ressurected. He decided to take the moral 'hit' and destroyed it. Then of course he had to try to talk the elves out of declaring war on him and the Earl he worked for.
Disguising it as treasure may also make the PCs take it with them, rather than destroy it, as they don't realize it's actually the phylactery.
This has worked very well for me in the past.
How badass of an end boss are we talking? If he's high enough level, this is a fun trick-
Once upon a time there was some bad wizard who summoned some ancient monster (use anything you like. A Shoggoth works well. The Terrasque is my favorite). Then the monster and the wizard were slain by some ancient hero wizard.
Eventually the PC's discover the good wizard and the bad wizard are the same guy. (WTF moment)
What the bad guy actually did was manage to get off a Trap the Soul spell on the nasty monster. He then used the gem from the spell as his phylactery when he turned himself into a lich. He's been being mr. manipulative bad guy for a few hundred years while he amassed the power necessary for his end-game plan. When the PCs figure it out, Mr. Lich doesn't even have to be sneaky. He can just admit to everything and tell them where the Gem is.
The trick is that if the PCs destroy the gem, they let out the world-ending monster. If they don't, Mr. Lich will never go away.
Mr. Lich doesn't even have to tell them that the monster is in the gem. If they figure it out, they're left with a problem. If they don't figure it out and let the beast out, then the Lich just casts Resurrection on himself, becomes mortal again, plays the part of the "returned hero mage" and defeats the monster again, puts it back in the gem and re-liches himself.
How badass of an end boss are we talking? If he's high enough level, this is a fun trick-
Once upon a time there was some bad wizard who summoned some ancient monster (use anything you like. A Shoggoth works well. The Terrasque is my favorite). Then the monster and the wizard were slain by some ancient hero wizard.
Eventually the PC's discover the good wizard and the bad wizard are the same guy. (WTF moment)
What the bad guy actually did was manage to get off a Trap the Soul spell on the nasty monster. He then used the gem from the spell as his phylactery when he turned himself into a lich. He's been being mr. manipulative bad guy for a few hundred years while he amassed the power necessary for his end-game plan. When the PCs figure it out, Mr. Lich doesn't even have to be sneaky. He can just admit to everything and tell them where the Gem is.
The trick is that if the PCs destroy the gem, they let out the world-ending monster. If they don't, Mr. Lich will never go away.
Mr. Lich doesn't even have to tell them that the monster is in the gem. If they figure it out, they're left with a problem. If they don't figure it out and let the beast out, then the Lich just casts Resurrection on himself, becomes mortal again, plays the part of the "returned hero mage" and defeats the monster again, puts it back in the gem and re-liches himself.
Or take the third path: Adamantine chains, cement, magic item that has a constant anti-magic field, and well I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.
Has anyone ever given the PC's phylactery early in the game and never told them what it was, just that it radiates magic? So that the PC's already have it and may have even improved it's abilities?
I absolutley have to do this now!!!
How badass of an end boss are we talking? If he's high enough level, this is a fun trick-
Once upon a time there was some bad wizard who summoned some ancient monster (use anything you like. A Shoggoth works well. The Terrasque is my favorite). Then the monster and the wizard were slain by some ancient hero wizard.
Eventually the PC's discover the good wizard and the bad wizard are the same guy. (WTF moment)
What the bad guy actually did was manage to get off a Trap the Soul spell on the nasty monster. He then used the gem from the spell as his phylactery when he turned himself into a lich. He's been being mr. manipulative bad guy for a few hundred years while he amassed the power necessary for his end-game plan. When the PCs figure it out, Mr. Lich doesn't even have to be sneaky. He can just admit to everything and tell them where the Gem is.
The trick is that if the PCs destroy the gem, they let out the world-ending monster. If they don't, Mr. Lich will never go away.
Mr. Lich doesn't even have to tell them that the monster is in the gem. If they figure it out, they're left with a problem. If they don't figure it out and let the beast out, then the Lich just casts Resurrection on himself, becomes mortal again, plays the part of the "returned hero mage" and defeats the monster again, puts it back in the gem and re-liches himself.
What exactly is keeping the PCs from freeing the [DOOM] and then similarly entrapping it in ANOTHER gem?
That way they stop the lich AND the [DOOM] and things are honkydory--at least until they realize that part of the lich's plan/power was sustaining the world at that point and they now have to go on yet ANOTHER quest to stabilize the world-wide cataclysm somehow.
What exactly is keeping the PCs from freeing the [DOOM] and then similarly entrapping it in ANOTHER gem?
Well, if it's the Terrasque, I'm going to assume it's because the PC's don't have the magical clout to break though it's spell resistance and saves before it eats their face.
That way they stop the lich AND the [DOOM] and things are honkydory--at least until they realize that part of the lich's plan/power was sustaining the world at that point and they now have to go on yet ANOTHER quest to stabilize the world-wide cataclysm somehow.
I like this. Reminds me of Mistborn. Consider it stolen.
Has anyone ever given the PC's phylactery early in the game and never told them what it was, just that it radiates magic? So that the PC's already have it and may have even improved it's abilities?I absolutley have to do this now!!!
I'm tempted, but I'm not sure I could work it into my current Kingmaker game...
I absolutley have to do this now!!!
"Bwang, Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 08:31 PM
I had Lich in a prior game pass a +5 etc. sword to the party's Paladin. It was so over the top powerful, the lich effectively had a level 12 bodyguard for his artifact!"
Not exactly early, but the Pally got the sword about level 11-12 and never clued it out. Next time, I think I'm going to have a Lich use a World Gate. Then the party will get several Druid groups, most Elves and several gods after them.