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lastblacknight wrote:


(the rogue is a little less useless, in pathfinder he can sneak attack undead)

Unless specifically called otherwise, all other creatures, such as Undead, Constructs, and Plants can be sneak attacked and affected by critical hits.
Sources: Paizo PRD. Bestiary pg. 306-313

Yeah, I meant "They have incorporeal traits, and are thus immune to crits and precision based damage."

I'm just used to saying undead, and lop the whole lot into the whole "we don't take crits, and forget yo' sneaky sneaky" categories.


I would also appreciate anyone pointing me to an appropriate post that already answers any of these questions...

Just trying to figure this out, as the core boook, and none of the expansions seem to know.


Okay. I have, like many here, been playing some form of pen and paper dungeon game for at least fifteen years... and I have a nagging question that still haunts out dungeoneering to this day. Hew exactly does light work?

First... How is light from a torch shed? I know its a 20 and 40 foot radius... but centered on what? the Torch? the corner of the square the torchbearer is occupying? All the corners? I have a diagram with all the possible options I could imagine. Could someone point to the one that is the one? Now... since all of the light/darkness spells require you to touch an object... They should work in the exact same way.

Torches?

B assumes that it sheds light from the square it occupies and it counts the square it occupies as the first 5 feet of the radius.

C assumes fireball rules on a single corner of the square of the torchbearer. I would say it would be the corner that the torchbearer is weilding the torch towards (since it's in one hand, and it has to be to one side at least a little)

A assumes it sheds light from all four corners of the square...

Now how about tactical light?
I have a diagram...
The Map Is Here
So I will skip straight to a hypothetical situation. We have two rooms, designated as Room 1 (R1) and Room 2 (R2) by lime green, and bound by walls as shown with lime green lines. (in this I assume torch B from my first diagram, since it is the most conservative).

Two players (of import) are included.
1: A Level 7 Oracle with Darkvision, Designated in red by P1.
A level 7 rogue with Low-light Vision, designated in red by P2.

Two enemies of import are designated in blue by an E1, and an E2. They are spellcasting enemies, and have some form of see in darkness, darksense, or darkvision. It doesn't matter, but it should be noted... they have undead traits, and thus are immune to criticals and precision damage... making the rogue borderline useless... GJ DM.

There are four important lighting effects in the area.

In yellow, we have a Daylight spell, cast by our oracle. Its AoE is shown in yellow.
In Purple we have a Darkness spell, cast by E1. Its AoE is shown in purple.
In Orange we have two, Ever-burning Torches, created by clerics, with Level 3 Continual Flame effects, and dropped by the daring Rogue... who had little else to do in his first three rounds. Their AoE for normal light is shown in Orange. I do not include the additional 20 feet of dim light, as it almost fills the room, and would make things very hairy.

So here is the basic order of things that occurred, for those that will ask the inevitable questions.

The rogue, stumbling upon a locked door, detects no traps, and picks the lock of the door. Since the dungeon is unlit, he has an Ever-burning Torch (as provided by the previous occupants of the temple we are now raiding, why thank you, don't mind if I do borrow these...)

Round 1:

Spoiler:

The rogue burgles through the door and stumbles upon two spectral enemies. Rolling initiative, he goes last... Oracle goes first. Enemies between the two.

Oracle wanders up flush to the transitory border of rooms 1 and 2 (ie. the door that is now opened.) Casts a spell. and passes.

Enemies turn, and pop two touch spells on the rogue. His high dex saves him, and both miss.

Other party members succeeding in their perceptions to detect combat, roll initiative, and come in above the rogue... still... They get their actions, which is to move towards the sound.

The rogue, still in the threshold, free-action drops his Ever-burning torch in an adjacent square in front of him, and moves to the currently listed location, free-action quick-drawing one of his Kukrii into his main-hand and burning a standard action to prepare an attack on the first enemy to get within range. (since it would be foolish to charge into combat without backup, yet).


Round 2:
Spoiler:

The oracle informs us that these monsters are quite dangerous, and we should not die! He casts a second defensive spell and passes.

One of the specters, E2 moves a bit, and casts another touch spell against the oracle... rolling low and missing. (now at designated position)

Now here is where it gets fuzzy... E1 moves towards a table, at his currently designated location, and casts Darkness, touching a candelabra on the table(not shown).

The other party members catch up into room 1, but are unaware of the details of the combat. The Archer-Fighter moves adjacent to the Oracle and assesses the situation The Witch lags behind.

The rogue, presumable blinded, move-action draws out another of the Ever-burning torches in his bag, and free-action drops it on the square next to him. The Rogue asks "Can I see?"


Round 3:
Spoiler:

The oracle casts light on an arrow, and spends his move action to present it to the Fighter (i dunno how this works... it does. Shut up)

The Fighter, now with the ability to see (presumably?) Fires a few arrows at E2, and finally draws and fires the Light Arrow at the ground in front of E2. Not striking an enemy, and not dealing damage, it sticks in the ground and sheds light out 60 feet (mathematically beyond the bounds of the walls, but not past them) It now rests where it is designated on the map.

The witch lags behind.

The Enemies do stuff

The rogue asks... "can I see?"

So. Here are the questions.

What is the light level at these given spots in room 2 on Round 2? That is, what is the light level, before the daylight spell was cast?
P2?
E2?
E1?
T1?
T2?

I know the spells do not counter each other... I know they do not dispel each other. But how is the suppression of the effects calculated? Since D1 envelops T2, is the torch itself completely suppressed? Is T1's light suppressed by the darkness? What about the 6 squares where the light from T1 and the light from T2 overlap? I know they do not stack, but they overlap!!!

If you get cursed by two spells, and have two separate effects that reduce your intelligence by 7 (high roll for a level 3 spell) and by 8 (low roll for a level 7 spell), respectively, if you dispel the one that reduces it by 7, is your intelligence, then, only reduced by 1? Of course not... your Int score does not change until the level 7 spell is dispelled as well.

Likewise... In these 6 squares where the light overlaps, we have two level 3 (at least level 2) light spells working, and only one level 2 darkness spell working. You are not going to get two cancellations out of one spell here. It just is not mathematically, logically, or generally functional if you do.

The Map Is Also Here

Complicated? Yes. Exhaustive? Very.


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Wash. St. Always has bad weather bro.... What are you talking about?


The section you say refers to attack rolls does not say it only refers to atrack roll penalties. It says attack penalties. A penalty to damage bonus is a penalty applied on an attack. Stop inferring implications without clear wording.

"you incur all the normal attack penalties" does not just reference "penalties to your attack roll." If it did, thats how it would have been worded.

For instance: if something said: "you take a -4 penalty to damage on you first attack each round"

And you had a spell active that read: "ignore all penalties on your first attack each round"

I would bet you would argue they interact to preven that damage penalty...

In this case. The .5 offhand/1.0 mainhand is technically a penalty for using multi attacks/offhand weapons.

Here is the place that talks about damage bonus, under strength....

Quote:
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)

Says nothing about double-weapons, thus they must fall under one section: One handed and off-handed, or two-handed.

If they are two-handed, the how the crap are you getting an off-hand attack with that other end???

That means they are one-handed and off-handed, thus incur only a 1.0/0.5 str. Bonus to damage.

Show me where it describes attacking with a double weapon as a two-handed attack. It mentions that only once, an then it forces you to use only one head of the weapon in th attack, denying you your off-hand attacks.

Wielding a weapon with two hands does not a two-handed attack make. Otherwise we could do the same with Light weapons. Read where it allows you to do that...

Quote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons : This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

...

Two-Handed : Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

And then double-weapons

Quote:

Double Weapons : Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat , just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Looks pretty clear. Used to make off-hand attacks, its treated like a one-handed/off-hand wielded weapon. No 1.5 str. Bonus for U!


@Grick a rogues first action in combat is often to just move adjacent to a target, especially if he is already stealthed/invisible. No attack needed

Goes like this: rogue disapears, perception checks to notice missing rogue, if anyone succeeds, they get to act in the surprise round with the missing rogue.

If Rogue gets low init. The rogue moves adjacent to target in surprise round. In the first full round if combat, the rogue can get his full attack, bu only if the target is after him...Rogue may not get a full attack action if the target moves in the first round of combat, but rogue still gets an Attack of Opportunity for the target leaving a threatened square.

Alternatively, if the rogue gets high init. He spends his surprise action moving adjacent to the target. Target cannot act in surprise round, and so it skips back to the top of initiative with the rogue, and the rogue gets a full attack action in the first normal round of combat.

So you may, as a rogue, want improved initiative, and traits, like reactionary, that give you more init. to mitigate crappy initiative checks ( which are dexterity based checks, and thus benefit from items like the luckstone that give bonuses to ability checks)

Only problem witn high init in the surprise round is if the target of your first round of attacks is the dumb jerk that had tons of ranks in perception and noticed you went "poof". He may, after you get adjacent, spen his surprise round action breaking contact with the invisible threat.

Just watch player and GM's who try to foul up your plan with unneccasary move actions in the surprise round. They should not now your rogue is adjacent to them and invisibly getting ready to shank them. Just be like "what possesd you character to move?" and call them out on it.


Okay mr. Timothy. First, you have to remember that acting in the surprise does not awareness of the action make. The action can consist of "i just stand there like an idiot" to "i keep doing whatever the grick it was i was doing before my character was thrown into initiative"

Second, Remember that Characters are not aware of the initiative mechanic. They can react to concepts like "that guy gets to swing before me" but do not understand why. Likewise they can do things like ready actions, and delay, but have no awarenes of initiative or the fact thst they are "in initiative".

Saying "roll initiative" does not give players a ticket that says "your character is now aware there is combat"

So in order of the asking:

1, 2, and 3 : combat begins with the desire to perform a hostile action. "I stab so-and-so" shows intent, but does not grant the action. Both, or all, players roll init. and then get to act. So if there is a bar brawl, it does not just open with the first guy to throw a punch. Everyone gets an action. That action may be, as i said, nothing at all. Playes roll perception to see if they notice hostility. If the rogue has not drawn his dagger and resheathed it in somebody's back, then there is no hostility to percieve. Thus, high initiative may be punished. Players may say "I delay" but You can only do that if you can act in the surprise round. If only one player is aware there is a combat about to start, then they may be the only one to act.

4: The Diviner's ability is exactly like spider-sense. He gets a little spark thingey ove his head that says "crap is about to get real/hit the fan/go down" he gets his action, which means until he knows what is going on, his action may be "i delay" or "i cast shield"...

That is his problem, but you just make sure they drop a Fort-save-fireball on the party rogue before he actually gets his hostile action. Nobody knows where the enemy is before they know who the enemy is. If he fails his perception check to percieve the stab, then he may get his action, but again it cannot be against the rogue-type that made his stealth/sleight of hand check. If he is not aware of the hostility, he cannot take hostile action without risk of being considere the instgator.

Hope this is good enuff!

-Shane


RusanCrosha wrote:
Okay, two more questions on this subject: 1) how would you determine the Caster Level of an intelligent phylactery? and 2) does destroying the phylactery slay the lich outright, or does it just make it impossible for the lich to come back after a defeat?

1: Usually the Casting level is determined by the level required to create the Item... that is: If it has enchantments, powers, and the like requiring a minimum level of 12, then it is level a level 12 casting level item... BUT! It can be as high as the caster that created it...

That is to say, as a level 27 Epic Wizard, you can create a +1 mundane Longsword that had a caster level of 27.... Why, who the heck knows...

2: Destroying the Phylactery kills the lich outright. the lich's soul or essence is linked directly to it's phylactery, and thus destroying it is much like destroying the body of a human. Unfortunately for a lich, destroying a phylactery destroys it's soul permanently, making it utterly impossible for him to ever be resurrected, etc.

Now...If you are asking (for #1) what level spells the item can cast,then the answer is: none. Unless you manage to give the item class levels, it does not have access to a spell casting ability.

Now there is an interesting thought. A Lich's Phylactery:

Int. 17
Wis. 17
Cha. 10

(three random abilities, speech, telepathy, etc)

Then... Give it class levels. lets say.... Level 6 Wizard...

You do the math, and footwork on the spells, but you basically get an awesome backup character to support your lich,and if s##& gets real.. he can animate his flying butt out of the room and flee.


Ah! I see it now... thought it was under melee... its right above slings...

my bad...

but this still does not answer the comment I made that it it still has a viable melee attack....

does it?


The question concerned Javelins, not rays...

I am not going to argue that rays shouldn't get a +1 to hit (and maybe even damage)...
I am arguing that Javelins are not ranged weapons... since they are defined as Melee weapons, and are listed under the melee weapon section in the weapon charts (unlike bows and shuriken, which are strictly ranged)


on p. 131: Point Blank shot reads: "you get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with "Ranged Weapons."

on p. 141: it reads: "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee"

I believe this is essentially limiting the PBS Feat to ranged weapons only, and thusly limiting it to only those weapons which are not effective in melee combat, as this would negate the first 10 ft range increment penalty for throwing throwing-axes 15-20 feet... All the while still getting +1 to damage...

BUT!! if you suddenly throw your axe a little farther than 30 ft, you no longer get that?

This is designed to give long-range characters a bonus for attacking in close range, where they could get shanked at any moment (since 30 feet is the standard distance of a given move action).


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With the Feat: "Throw Anything" Can my character literally throw any object without taking the -4 penalty. That is to say... Can I throw a great axes, hand axes, or battle axes without incurring a -4 penalty? There is an argument between my gaming group that currently has ended with the concept that throw anything only applies to objects not intended to be used as weapons at all (like bottles, chairs and end-tables).

If so, what is their critical threat range? Does it default down to X2 on a natural 20.

This all stems from the definition of Improvised weapons... the book actually says on p. 144. "Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons..." but the feat "Throw Anything" says: "You do not suffer any penalties for using improvised thrown weapons."

I suppose I mean to ask: "What is the difference between an improvised weapon and an improvised thrown weapon."