Christopher Rowe 151's page

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I believe that you are referencing my post. My idea was to use the Spellslinger as a dip to then go Cleric (the op of that thread wanted a gun wielding cleric). That thought process evolved into a particularly good use of Mystic Theurge as a striker with a gun focusing on damaging spells like scorching ray and the various inflict spells (with the reach spell metamagic) to damage at range. Don't know if this is what you are looking for but there you go.

DH's suggestion is rather good as well. It doesn't become viable until 4th level when the Myrmidarch gets ranged spell strike but when it does, it is a very good option for what you are looking for.


I guess that using reach spell, you could also get ranged "gun healing". That is not what I had in mind but I guess it would work (although it does sound kind of silly).

I think that it does work really well with the Theurge though. It makes having a ton of lower level spells really viable. That is a lot of Scorching rays, inflict moderate wounds, etc, etc... For that build I would suggest spells that have no save by virtue of their required hit roll because of the Theurge's MAD when it comes to casting stats (although shooting it through the gun does give you the enhancement bonus as + to Save DC or hit roll which is nice).

For the cleric domains, I would suggest the Artifice Domain (which gives mend at will which will fix the broken condition of your gun avoiding that whole "exploding gun" scenario) and the Black Powder inquisition (now open to Clerics thanks to UM) which I think fits thematically with the character (although honestly not the most optimized choice).

I'll have to do a write-up on this and post it at some point...


You can pick up all of the requisite abilities to make this work with one level of spellslinger wizard. Stay with me a minute here... You get the gun, weapon bond and ability to shoot spells through it. Keep in mind that the archetype states that you can send any spell (of the type that can be fired, rays and ranged touch if I remember correctly) that you know. In other words there is no reason you couldn't then take levels in Cleric and shoot cleric spells through the gun.

Pick up reach spell metamagic to turn all of those nasty cleric touch spells (inlict, harm etc...) into ranged touch and go to town.

Now that I think about it, this build is probably the best argument for the Mystic Theurge PC that I can think of. You will get a lot of spells that don't require saves (most touch / ranged touch spells don't) so the MAD will not be so bad and your BAB doesn't matter because you are always attacking touch AC (within the first range increment anyway). You could even take the arcane armor feats to be able to cast your arcane spells in light (or gasp... even medium) armor since you already have the armor proficiencies from cleric levels.

Really not a bad build overall if you look at yourself as more of a hybrid than a dedicated spellcaster. You would fill the archer / striker role instead of the battlefield control / healer role.


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A good friend of mine is gay and after creating the illusion of a manticore doing the Macarena (or the "Manitcorana" as he called it) another player (new to the group) said "that is SO gay!!". Realizing his faux pas, he looked to my friend sheepishly and appologized to which my friend responded "that's OK, sometimes things are just gay...". I'm fairly certain that I may have wet myself a little that night...


The issue at hand is that when you created your character via point buy, you made a conscious effort to dump your mental stats to levels below the average commoner (or even troglodyte) in exchange for comparatively huge physical stats.

The prevailing reasoning around here is that while PF has very strict guidelines as to what physical stats do and rewards players with high scores in those stats, it is fairly mute as to the benefits of mental stats outside of their effect on skills (which arguably can be made up for by purchasing ranks).

There is a reason that PF is so silent as to the effects of mental stats. It is because those stats are best expressed through role-play (you know the other 80% of this game outside of combat).

It becomes an issue of "well the rules don't tell me that I can't dump my intelligence and still play my character like he's a genius so that means I can".

Look, all that I ask is that when you sit down at my table (and most of you probably never will) please roleplay the limitations you are consciously putting on your character to get the huge strength modifier or whatever.


Sorry guys (and gals). This is a bit of a hot button topic for me and I do tend to stretch a metaphor for comedic value (I just can't help myself...). I don't really think that a 7 INT character drools on themselves but I also don't buy that he is everybit as capable of reasoning capacity as the 13 int guy next to him because he can get lucky on a dice roll.

I am of the school of thought that my characters should be good at what they do as any person of a given profession should strive for but I am personally unwilling to sacrifice my sense of immersion (by saying that to be a good fighter I also have to have Forrest Gump level intelligence, Sheldon Cooper level wisdom and Bob McAxemurder level personal skills) to get there. I think that someone with such low numbers in multiple mental stats is going to have a hard time functioning in the real (fantastical) world and should be roleplayed as such. It's one thing to say that you're shy, but to also add that you have no personal insight and the education and reasoning capabilities of a 13 year old? It just seems a bit much to me.


So what I'm hearing here is that people believe that a 7 INT or CHA or whatever is essentially the same as average (10-11) or even that a 3 INT character is somehow perfectly serviceable and should be allowed to come up with the genius strategy or do advanced calculus? I find that a little hard to swallow.

I have a feeling that all of the folks that advocate the "my 7 INT is just as good as your 15 INT" line of thinking are the exact people that dump those stats to have a 20 STR, DEX and CON.

The physical abilities have always had more of an impact in D&D / PF and are counted as more valuable. I would note that races in 3.x were designed so that anyone who got a bonus to STR had to have either a matching negative to another physical score or DOUBLE that negative to mental stats to avoid a +1 ECL. In other words the devs counted STR as double the value of INT, WIS or CHA.

Sure a 3 INT is capable of languages but trying to parlay that into "I sound just as intelligent and refined as your 20 INT character" is pure and baseless meta-gaming of the worst kind.

Again I just urge people to think of what a person in real life with below average intelligence, insight and personality would be like to be around much less trust with any but the simplest tasks.

I concur that one "dumped" stat can provide roleplaying depth to a character. Forest Gump was a neat character with his 7 INT but he also had some amazing insight into the human condition (above average WIS) and what seemed like a strong sense of empathy and affability (high CHA). What bothers me are the folks who will plainly dump one, two or even three stats and then blatantly say that those low scores have no effect on their character's personality or reasoning capabilities.


But I think that if I sat down at a table and said "since all of your characters are simpletons, I will be assuming command of this party and giving the orders around here", it may cause problems.

My issue is that I WOULD like to travel with a group of folks that I could trust to both do their job and act like some semblance of normal people. I'm not saying that a 7 INT can't be roleplayed well and enjoyed by the character and the party, I'm saying I'm sick of sitting down at a table with three melee combatants that ALL have a 7 INT / CHA because they wanted to pump their strength score.

I get especially angry when those 7 INT/WIS/CHA melee combatants then want to pipe in when we are discussing extremely detailed tactical manuevers or knowledge skills because the desire to dump your stats to make yourself awesome at combat and still play your character as the unholy love child of Einstein, Ghandi and General Patton when not in combat is extremely meta-gamey to me.


I agree Gignere, but the game assumes that these are people that you made a conscious decision to trust with your life as equals, valuing their opinions and let's face it, hanging out with them for extended periods; i.e. party members.

I think that the much maligned "Role-Players" have a bit of a point here. The idea of this game is to create the semblance of a real person, capable of surviving and thriving in this mythical world. I'm pretty sure the mentally handicapped, slightly unhinged sociopath would have had a hard time making it in such a world.

At no point should my character look over and say "You have the intellect, insight and personality of a shovel. Why do I hang out with you again?"


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Just how did these parties come together anyway? Did one or two of these guys walk into a tavern and say "Well Bob, who should we pick to be our adventuring partners, friends and comrades in arms against the coming darkness". To which the second man says "I know Jim, how about that foul smelling weak stick of a man with the terrible case of terrets (STR, CHA 7 Wizard) or perhaps that thickly muscled imbiscile sitting in the corner picking his nose and drooling on himself (INT, WIS, CHA 7 Fighter). The first man looks at the second and says "Sure thing Bob, those look like two people we can place our trust in to guard our lives and be our indellible companions. But to be honest I would like to add that overly self-righteous man at the bar who seems to be trying to set fire to his own hair with a tindertwig (INT, WIS 7 Paladin)".

The campfire talk with these groups must be an interesting mix of "Boobs are awesome, I like pie!! and awkward silences..."

The point here is that I would not want to hang out with people like that and I'm pretty sure, neither would my characters.


As a player that refuses to dump stats unless it fits a very particular concept (usually all stats are at least 10), I find it kind of annoying to sit down at a table with a group of people who all have 2 or 3 extremely low stats that just happen to be those scores that their particular class doesn't need to eek out a few extra points of damage.

So I take it upon myself to roleplay their stats when interacting with them.

When Joe the 7 INT, 10 WIS, 7 CHA fighter starts his extremely detailed tactical analysis of the upcoming fight or tries to participate in some deeply analytical way in the discussion on the contents of some book on ancient magic, I calmly look at him and say "It's OK little Joey, go sit in the corner, the adults are talking here".

I do this because I like to roleplay and my character (who is also a relevant, contributing party member but can still manage at least average intelligence, wisdom and charisma) looks over and sees Forest Gump. Sure he can swing a sword and he has a lot of hit points but at the end of the day he is still only slightly dumber, less wise and less charismatic than your average Troglodyte (INT 8, WIS 11, CHA 11) who by the way I wouldn't let plan my tactical encounters either.


By the way, look at the racial (untyped) trait: Helpful. An extra +2 trait bonus when you use aid another (ie bodyguard).


Netherek, the "all abilities are replicated by spells" route is a road to heartbreak. Sure, they are all available as spells, but the monk doesn't need them. Invisibility is a spell but rogues and ninjas still take the stealth skill. Magic Weapon is a spell but Fighters still seek out enchanted weapons for their own. Imagine all of the spells that a monk saves a caster by having all those "spells" for free as abilities.

If we're going down this route, then we may as well be asking why everyone doesn't play a full caster because it has been well advocated that spells can replicate everyone's abilities in the numerous "casters are better than fighters, whaaaa!!!" threads.

If the party rogue looked over to my wizard and said "hey use up all of your slots memorizing knock to open doors, invisibility to do scouting and dispell magic to deal with traps" I would tell him to go get bent. That is his job and when he does his job, I can be a more versitile caster (although, I would probably memorize dispell magic just in case...).


What about a feat version of the Barbarian rage power Reckless Abandon. Give up AC for a bonus to hit (scaling either like combat expertise (-1/+1) or power attack (-1/+2))?


BTW, Joyd, that was one of the biggies I was trying to address with my suggestions. Under my changes, the Sohei could "flurry" with a polearm (assuming he had weapon training in it and not just proficiency) to give himself a full base attack bonus (ie 8th level Sohei could do +8/+3 or blow a ki point for +8/+8/+3 all at reach). All of this while applying power attack without being completely unable to hit anything thanks to that random -2 while using flurry to get extra attacks that he can't use...


Actually a monk has a lot going for it if its combat abilities were addressed. Their Ki powers are a great resource (again if they were stacked on to a revamped combat mechanic).

They get a lot of abilities that no one else can claim (ie perfect self, diamond body, diamond soul, etc. etc.) which is a lot more than most classes can claim when most of their abilities have been pimped out to every other class out there via archetypes (I'm lookin at you rogue...).

Name me one other class that gets quivering palm (sure its kind of like death attack or whatever but it is pretty unique) or abundant step as a base class ability or that insane amount of inate movement.

Edit: Oh yeah and their inate weapons eventually do more base damage than any other weapon out there and can't be disarmed, sundered etc. Even when they pimp out the monk's other abilities (see unarmed fighter, ninja talents etc.), they have never given any other class the ability to do monk base damage with a weapon that can never be confiscated or otherwise removed from their person.


No. I am saying that when a monk uses a full attack action, he gets a full base attack bonus. That means that a 8th level monk can either get one attack (via the attack action) at his normal BAB (ie +6) or full attack at +8/+3 if all of those attacks are with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. If he wants to get extra attacks via TWF, he must take the feats and follow the rules for those feats just like everyone else (although he gets them added to his list of monk bonus feats at 1st, 6th, and 14th level respectively and doesn't need to meet pre-reqs per monk bonus feats).

So we take our 8th level monk using a kama in one hand. He can either attack with that kama (or an unarmed strike at his discretion) at +6 via the attack action or "flurry" ie full attack at +8/+3. If he happens to have taken two weapon fighting as one of his optional monk bonus feats, he could then full attack at +6/+6/+1 (with the -2 penalty applied from the TWF feat) and each +6 attack has to be with a different weapon (because he gets the bonus from Flurry (ie level as BAB) and must still adhere to the limitation of the TWF feat).

Edit: In other words, if the Devs would just get rid of that wonky "kinda like two weapon fighting" part of flurry of blows and just give the monk the ability to use his level as BAB when full attacking with Unarmed Strikes or Monk Weapons, the ability would be a lot clearer and work with any other feat in the game without issue.


My FoB isn't based on TWF either. It does allow a monk to get extra attacks via TWF if they want (by taking the bonus feats (without pre-reqs like any other monk bonus feat) but doesn't limit the monk using the reach / two handed weapon or the monk who wanted to take Zen Archer by imposing them with some arbitrary -2 penalty if all they want to do is get 4 attacks with a 20 BAB @ 20th just like a fighter.

Your write-up accomplishes the same thing but takes a large document full of special rules and exceptions to those rules to try and cover special corner cases. My FoB simply sets up the monk ability in a simple manner and lets the pre-existing rules (i.e. two weapon fighting, rapid shot, many-shot, reach weapons, Sohei's / Zen Archer's special abilities) work off of that.


I read your submission MA, but I still feel like the ability write-up is entirely too riddled with exceptions, addendums and options (I counted at least 12 with a cursory read) (Much like the current incarnation of FoB). I was trying to present a simpler peared down version that would be easy to interpret and used as few class-specific rules changes as possible to be able to accomplish what everyone is asking for.


Well, since everyone else is chiming in on this I guess I should throw in my 2 cents.

How about we modify flurry of blows to read as following:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When a monk uses the full attack action, she uses her monk level in place of her normal base attack bonus. Each attack made as part of this full attack action may be made with either a held monk weapon or as an unarmed strike at the monk's discretion.

Then, we add the two weapon fighting feats as optional bonus feats at the appropriate levels, say 1st, 6th and 14th respectively.

When a monk takes these feats, they must abide by the rules of both her Flurry of Blows ability and the Two Weapon Fighting feats which now work together without any issues.

The Sohei's ability would read that they can use any weapon for which they have taken weapon training as a monk weapon for purposes of flurry of blows. All other abilities remain the same.

The zen archer would say that they can use a bow to perform a flurry of blows and add rapid shot and manyshot as monk bonus feats at 1st and 4th. All other abilities remain the same.

The elegance of this solution lies in the fact that no special rules need be made for the monk (outside of course of monk level as BAB for full attack) while allowing a monk to use a two handed weapon effectively like a fighter, to two weapon fight if they want and with specific archetypes, to use alternate weapons to perform their abilities. It also allows the monk to substitute unarmed strikes for any of her attacks as the dev's intended while also avoiding the sohei kicking the ground when she just wants to full attack with her halberd.

Thoughts?

edited again for typos...


An item can be enchanted to grant up to a +15 bonus (competence, I think) to any skill ala cloak of elvenkind or ring of jumping.

Heroism (Inquisitor 3) adds a +2 morale bonus.

The Master Spy prestige class adds their class level (up to 10) to Sense Motive.

That's all I got for now...


I like the idea of a sorceror focusing on enchantment spells. Gives you the high charisma "manipulative" character complete with class skills that play to this. Maybe go Fey bloodline or something similar (I like the idea of the manipulative unseelie fey of legend). My group has always run sorcs as gaining their powers around puberty and then refining them to the point that they are a 1st level soceror around 18/19ish years old. That being said, for a "prodigy" it wouldn't be crazy to assume that her powers manifested early and she either had a mentor (maybe a member of the unseelie court?) to speed up her learning process or was just naturally talented enough to grasp the ideas by age 12 or so.

Enough charms / dominates out there, combined with her natural charm and illusion of vulnerability would allow her to mass up quite a formidable group of henchmen to challenge the party with.

Even better is after the fight, authorities show up asking questions about the PC's involvement in attacking such an "innocent" young girl...

Great idea, hope it works out for you.


So updated it would look like this:

7 Ranks
3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part if not can be increased w/ cat's grace / gloves)
3 Trapfinding
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Goggles)
4 Aid Another x 2
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell (70 minutes)

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.


I didn't assume trapfinding because not every class gets it. I didn't know it was a rogue so that will save you the feat at 7th (skill focus) which is great because I would hate to take a feat for a one time thing...


The only spell in my example is Heroism which is 10 min / level or 70 minutes that should get you there with time to spare (I love rhymes...) As for the wonderous item, I priced it from the item crafting rules but I didn't see that Goggles of Minute seeing granted a +5 for Disable device so there you go.


Should be 2500 unless you make it at which point it is 1250. (It's still half for magic item creation, right?) I said +5 because it requires a 4 caster level to get +5 or a 9 caster level (I think to get up to +10 and at level 7 it seems that +5 was the best they could make themselves)


7 Ranks
3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part if not can be increased w/ cat's grace / gloves)
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Wondrous Item)
4 Aid Another x 2
3 Skill Focus (Taken @ 7 if not already)
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.


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I don't know what got into me yesterday... Sorry for the ranting, also apparently either my brain or my "m" key is broken "ammount", "immagine"? I don't even know what that is... Again sorry for the thread jack.

On topic, the "blaster vs. GOD wizard" debate crops up quite often. People seem to think that there is only one way to play any given class.

Also, I dislike when someone creates a thread in the rules section asking for the RAW on some particular ability/class/feat and then asks how that interacts with the 27 houserules that are in effect in their DM's game. "So you're saying that since my DM allows vital strike to work with spring attack that RAW, I can also get my iaijutsu strike in for free?, AWESOME!!"

And just for the record, the summoner and alchemist ARE broken... Almost every uber-7,000 points of damage from a full attack build on here starts with "So, you take a synthesist summoner..." or "My alchemist with Feral Mutagens and Vestigal Arm who happens to be the unholy love child of AM BARBARIAN...". That seems to me to point to a couple of classes with inherent balance issues...

Oh yeah, forgot an overused thread: "is X class balanced with Y class?" although this seems to crop up along with the "why do rogues suck" and "alchemists are awesome" threads and may or may not be a symptom of that.


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With their feral mutagens, vestigal arms/legs/heads and massive stat boosting alchemical mixtures, what's not to like. Never mind that every build on the boards reduce their wis and cha to 7 to make their veritable killing machine. I have to say that if you're primary combat tactic is to shoot up a bunch of green glowing liquid, grow an extra arm or two and rage/freak on the enemies, all while sporting the common sense and hygeine habits of an oranguatan, then I'm not going to want to hang out with you all that much. Nothing personal...

And this is my beef. I have watched "that guy" dump his int, wis, and cha down to 7 so that he can have massive physical abilities and and equally massive damage output so many times, its kind of ruining the game for me. Just try to immagine what being around a person like that for any reasonable ammount of time would be like. I'm sorry but I'm not going to place my trust in a guy that got into the local adventuring guild on the mental handicap affirmative action clause, that he can handle himself outside of combat without a leash and food bowl.

Even worse is when you see this same guy trying to make awesome tactical decisions on the battle mat like his character is General Patton at the battle of the bulge. I'm fine if you want to dump all of your mental stats for a huge con so that you can run all day accross the country several times, but the moment that you try anything more tactical than "I gotta save Bubba and Lieutenant DAN!!!", I'm going to take issue... You are not playing your character, plain and simple...


Also, (Double post but different topic)

I think that 90% of the "This class sucks or isn't as good as a ______" threads come from the fact that the only thing people on these boards seem to theorycraft are combat monsters. I don't think I've seen a single build whose focus was social situations or crafting or whatever. Just once I would like to see a "I can have a Knowledge Local of +30 at 4th level, mwahahaha" thread.

I understand that some of the skill monkey, socialite hippy characters aren't as mechanically interesting as the gritty, devil-may-care-and-or-cry, RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Drizzt-clone, two-handed-because-you-get-more- power-attack-that-way weapon masters out there but c'mon, the party needs a face and if you can do that effectively, then who cares if you are doing 12 DPS less than the dedicated fighter?

We seem to have a lot of "I like to see big numbers pop up" or "I am the mighty Axe-sword-flounder King of DPS!1!" folks on these boards (which is cool, I like the simulationist stuff too) but while all of the classes may not be optimized or balanced for combat, combat is not the end-all and be-all of the game either.

Sure, you can do 12,658 points of damage, but if you can't talk your way out of a wet paper bag of holding then you can get to the back of the line and let the adults talk, Thog.

Sorry, these were supposed to be funny rants on the various overused threads and not an angry ranting attempt at a threadjack. My bad...


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"RAW vs. RAI" threads where RAW / RAI is apparently whatever the poster wants it to be to support a groundless, silly and pedantic argument

For example:

"Well it says that I have to have a free hand when I draw the weapon, it doesn't say anything about when I strike with it. While the devs may have MEANT Iaijutsu strike to be used one handed, the RAW says I can use two hands..."

Give it up, the Devs never intended you to be able to wield a Greatsword for an Iaijutsu strike. IT'S ONLY USABLE WITH A ONE HANDED WEAPON. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, it is the way it was meant, the way it was written and the way it was supported in the rules. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T USE IT...

Sorry, end rant...


Ah yeah, forgot about the Antipaladin archetype. Still, I wouldn't mind hearing from the Devs on the issue as my group tend to take their word as canon. I admit that I'll be a bit dissapointed when they rule as DystopianDream suggests (and they probably will considering their penchant for preferring to keep their classes tied to the fluff) because I do like the idea of a cavalier swordsman. But hey, whatcha gonna do?


I understand the cultural reference but that is why I would personally rename the ability in game to reflect a more western theme.

As to the heart of the question, the rules for Alternate Classes state that they *are* essentially the same class but with enough differences that they warranted a new write-up. I believe the exact words from the devs was "more involved than an archetype but less than an all new base class", and in the case of the Cavalier and Samurai they can share orders. You can be a Ronin Cavalier if you want (per the rules) or an Order of the Cockatrice Samurai.

I think we need some clarification here as this is the first (to my knowledge) archetype for an alternate class (something the devs said wasn't supposed to happen :-p).


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I couldn't find if this had been answered before but the Samurai Archetype Sword Saint replaces the "Mounted Charge" ability with Brutal Slash at 3rd level. Here is the problem that I see.

The samurai doesn't get an ability called Mounted Charge. He gets Mounted Archer at 4th level. So either he gets an ability at 3 that replaces an ability that he usually got at 4 or he gets the Brutal Slash ability at 4 and the level availability listed in the ability is just a typo.

My real question is can a Cavalier take the Sword Saint Archetype? The samurai is an alternate class of the cavalier and they can share Orders. The cavalier has all of the abilities to give up for Sword Saint. Heck, the cavalier is more qualified for the archetype than the samurai because the cavelier has a "charge" ability to give up at 3rd level and the samurai obviously doesn't.

I personally love the idea of a Gendarme Sword Saint Cavalier for the more western themed games. Simply rename Iaijutsu Strike to Focused Strike or Decisive Strike and you are golden.


As this is a topic near and dear to my heart (I despise playing low int / wis characters, even fighters. Love the LoreWarden by the way), I'll throw in my 2 coppers. While a very high or very low int can seriously effect your skill selection, another serious consideration is class selection.

Apparently a 5 int rogue is just as skillfull (in both breadth and width) as a 16 int fighter. Both have 5 skill points per level and while the fighter will trump the rogue in the knowledge department, the rogue is still going to be as good or better in many other areas (depending where other stats are placed).

Apparently the system values time and effort just as much as natural talent when it comes to skills because a rogue apparently gets lots of skill points because he spent his time practicing skills instead of weapons or magic or whatever, regardless of his intelligence score.

I see the int 7 guy as being an imenently practical person who doesn't spend a lot of time thinking things through and goes off of his "gut" in most situations. He probably has a limited vocabulary (as intelligence controlls number of languages and the Linguistics skill). He knows how to drive a car even if he doesn't understand the physics behind the internal combustion engine used to power it (same with alchemical devices and crossbows etc...). We are talking about the Jock / Grunt / Simple folk kind of guy that would probably bore most of the people in this board in conversation but while we are sitting around arguing about the best course of action when dealing with the orcs in the next room, he is kicking in the door and winging it.


Sorry for the double post but it would also key in to a lot of great villian concepts. Just on the fly here but the party defeats the big bad (insert evil monster here) and lay claim to his hoard. Amongst the items is a beautiful (obviously enchanted) ivory gripped pistol with a ruby pommel cap. The gunslinger runs over and snags it admiring the craftsmanship and suddenly reaches down, grabs a battered hat from amidst the loot and turns to the female cleric in the party and, tipping his hat says "ma'am" with an evil glint in his eye and vanishes. The gunslinger has just been taken by the immortal spellslinger, Durant Cole and his infamous pistol, Gutshot.


With a wonderous item: permenant magic effect magic jar on a gem, you then make it an intelligent object. Per RAW, intelligent items are treated as constructs (ie cannot be dispelled or disjunctioned and are immune to anti-magic fields). Give it a power (say teleport) to get you out of dodge if your body dies to a pre-set location with a fresh body on hand (By clone or temporal stasis etc.)

Also, you could then create it at the minimum caster level for magic jar (10th) to reduce the cost (which will probably be negligible due to the extra cost of making it an intelligent item...)

I was trying this in 3.5 when you had to worry about Ruby Ray of Reversal etc which led me to this idea. You could also create an actual golem (think shield warden) with your gem embedded in it to carry it around when you are in a body. Your body dies, you go into the jar (which is attached to the Golem) and then poof you disappear.

I also toyed around with the idea of giving the gem another special purpose power, Attraction (and / or Mind Fog) for more easily taking bodies. The intrepid adventurers kill the evil sorceress and then all of a sudden turn on one another to possess the Ruby Headband that she was wearing (at this point the items name would be "Prescious")

*Edit to add: Since the gem itself is a slotless item, I would attach it to another item; say set into a magic ring, the cap of my favorite staff or as a brooch on the +6 Cloak of Charisma that would be really helpful to have around.


Hmm. Just realized how bad of a build that is.

Should maybe look like this:

Shocking Grasp Master
Human Magus:
Trait: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
1st: Combat Casting, Elemental spell (Acid or whatever)
3rd: Heighten Spell
5th: Preferred Spell (Shocking Grasp), Intensified spell
7th: Second Elemental Spell feat
9th: Empower Spell
11th: Third Elemental Spell Feat, Maximize Spell
13th: Quicken Spell

You get the idea.


Since shocking grasp is such a staple for the Magus, the magical lineage trait seems like a no-brainer for that spell. Then just take the elemental spell metamagic feat to adjust your damage type, keeping a couple of copies around of each type (in this case shocking / acid?). Later you can pick up preferred spell (shocking grasp) at 5 (with heighten spell as a pre-req) to then be able to instantly drop a 1st level spell for shocking (and/or acid) grasp or intensified shocking grasp or a second level spell slot for both on the fly. More elemental spell feats nets you more damage types, all using that ubiquitous spell slot. Kind of feat intensive but it may be worth it for the versatility.

So build wise you are looking at this (as an example):

Human Magus:
Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
1st: Heighten spell, elemental spell (acid)
3rd: Elemental spell (frost or whatever)
5th: Preferred spell (Shocking grasp), Intensified Spell

This way you're never out of your favorite combat spell (which is now the much more versitile acid/frost/shocking grasp) but can still memorize other spells in those slots to drop if necessary.

If you **REALLY** want to specialize, pick up a couple more metamagics (empower, maximize etc.) to keep filling those higher level slots since with preferred spell you can add metamagic on the fly. Fighting a red dragon, then drop any fifth level spell for a maximized intensified frost grasp.

*Edit to add intensified spell as 5th level bonus magus feat.


I like to imagine the Pathfinder guns being of the break action variety (think single barreled break action shotgun). Being a cowboy action shooting firearms enthusiast, I've seen guys who keep their off hand (gloved of course) on top of the barrel to steady the weapon with two or three extra shells in between their fingers and firing with their main hand (working the trigger with the middle finger so the index finger can open the break action when reloading), extracting the shell with the thumb and index finger of the offhand and quickly rolling one of the shells from between their fingers to their thumb and index fingers for loading. I know this sounds confusing but it is quite fast when done correctly. This type of shooting requires speed to do well in competition. It's a hard task that takes a lot of manual dexterity but could easily be considered believable with a 16 to 18 Dex and the Rapid Reload feat to represent the training.

To be fair, I have a hard time with the two gun machine gun characters but I've seen a single barreled speed shooter get off three shots in six seconds on a target 20 feet away (albeit with a break action coach shotgun). But hey, this is fantasy so go with it.


I like Lorekeeper's interpretation here. the "or" in the statement is describing two different situations. The first is obviously that the intended target fails to percieve the assassin (ie the invisibility). He can know an assassin is around but that doesn't help him if he doesn't know where the assassin is. This is clarifying that Death Strike does not work like sneak attack (ala, not when flanking, etc.; only when the assassin is not percieved). The second condition comes into play when the intended target is walking down the street. Sure, he percieves the shabby beggar walking towards him, but he fails to note that he is an enemy until the "beggar" sticks him in the belly with a hidden knife.

Well played sir, well played.


Having read a great deal of Buddhist canon, I am fairly certain that they fall squarely in the NG territory. In point of fact, they are probably the philosophy most closely akin to "true" altruism. Christians do good deeds because they believe in the immortality of the soul and want to secure for themselves a place in what they consider to be the "good" afterlife. While the acts that the Church and its patrons perform are "good" and admirable, the motivations of the individual Christian are essentially self-serving (as defined in phillosophy, anyway). On the other hand, Budhists are taught that they must actively shun physical entrapments as they are an impure road to happiness and should instead focus on bringing the greatest good to the world at large, namely ensuring that all people one day achieve enlightenment through spiritual wisdom. This is ultimately apparent in the case of the Boddhisatvas who at the moment of enlightenment, choose to turn away from their true goal of transmigration to the universal good and instead come back to help others to achieve the same state through wisdom and guidance.

Sorry for the rant, I just get uncomfortable when people start throwing around ideas of "true neutral" Buddhists.

@Bob: Great posts and great insight. The alignment system, while flawed, is still as relevant today as it was in 1978 (when Gygax implemented the dual axis system).


Great idea BTW. I like a druid for temperance. The native American idea of taking only what you need, conserving the balance of nature seems like the opposite of gluttony to me. Maybe a community based druid helping farmers sustain themselves while conserving nature.


We're arguing the same point. The OP asked how he could play an evil character in a paladin laden party. The guy I was talking about IS evil. He may have the same goals as the paladin: law and order in the kingdom, the protection of its law abiding citizens etc. But he is willing to take the low road to get there. We're looking at alignment as a zero sum game where 1-50 is good, and 51-100 is evil. Given that train of thought, you can play at 51. Evil but redeemable. My point was that it depended on the paladin's point of view, namely: I am going to try to redeem this person by leading by example and showing him that you can do these things without evil deeds or LOL you're evil, SMITE!!!! That being said, I agree that the OP should talk to the paladin player and DM before throwing an Evil character into the mix.


Thanks to the objective nature of the alignment system, the hardnose detective that is willing to rough up a suspect is evil in game terms (roughing up being the equivalent of torture). Even though he's trying to get to get to the bottom of a terrible murder his actions denote evil attitudes. This "ends justifies the means" approach is prototypical of LE behavior. I could see this guy working in a paladin group if the paladin takes on the notion that he is going to save this good soul that has fallen off of the path through leading by example. Admittedly, this is a bit different take on the LE alignment but I think a valid one.


My philosophy on LE is "a paladin does what he can, I do what I must". You can be a good guy, interested in saving the village, rescuing babies and such but to a LE guy, the ends justify the means. If it means sacrificing a few for the good of the many, so be it. He will kill, steal, poison and butcher to accomplish his goal whether that goal is saving the village or enforcing the Lord's justice. If the paladin's way works, great but you are the guy with the plan B that isn't so nice...


Based on your thread title? Just call her. She seems desperate enough...


What about project image / resilient sphere on self. The image counts as the origin of your very real spells. Used to work better with telekinetic sphere...


Sounds like a special purpose intelligent item with a wicked-high ego score to me. Tailor their special purpose power to each of the 7 deadlies and have them use their massive ego to take over those foolish enough to touch them.


I was trying to make Karla from record of loss war and stumbled on a great npc device. Craft wondrous item permanent magic jar on the gem that is to be the focus. Imagine the pc's dismay when they defeat the lich only to find his phylactracy and it starts taking over party members ... The item works because the only way magic jar ends is the duration (this is a permanent effect) or they re-enter their body. This way the lich doesn't have to be a lich at all but a powerful necromancer who has found an alternative to extending his life. Coupled with envious urge as a contingency spell activated on the mage's death and fun ensue as the weak willed start trying to steal that big 'ol ruby... to make it a really tough fight, make it an intelligent item. It will count as a construct and can't be dispelled or disjuntioned.

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