There is no statement in the rules as written to indicate that clothes/outfits are analogous to vestments/robes.It wouldn't "void" the slot anymore than wearing mundane rings voids the two magic ring slots.
Vestments and robes (exactly what a monk would want to enchant)obviously take up the Body slot....
That was not stated in the original question. "Clothes" do not default to the body slot. If they did, wearing an outfit (i.e. "clothes") would prevent vestments/robes from being worn.
Is the monk's player asking to use the body slot instead of the bracers slot? If so, I have no problem with that.
Okey dokey.
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That's what everyone else was saying, and directly contradictory to your earlier statement.No; Mage Armor is OK -- because it's a spell which grants an enhancement bonus to AC (which stacks with a monk's untyped bonuses).No; mage armor gives an Armor bonus to AC. It does not give an enhancement bonus to AC. It is impossible to get an enhancement bonus to AC using anything that Paizo or WotC has published.
In the same vein, bracers of armor give an armor bonus to AC. By your logic, monks would be prohibited from wearing them.
A bonus is not the same thing as armor.
Armor is heavy stuff that weighs you down.
(An "enchanted shirt", or however you want to describe it or home-brew-craft in such as way as to not nerf a monk, is a wondrous item, not armor)
How so?
(I suspect you're confusing someone else's remarks for mine.)
You'll note that the word "bonus" is absent in the first statement.
(...but...this is boring. Let's find something more interesting to fight over.)
Well let's compare it to this statement you made then, maybe that'll liven up your day, I know it will mine.
Because Bracers are a wondrous item, and enchanted clothing is armor; which monks are screwed wearing.
A bonus is not the same thing as armor.
Armor is heavy stuff that weighs you down.(An "enchanted shirt", or however you want to describe it or home-brew-craft in such as way as to not nerf a monk, is a wondrous item, not armor)
EDIT: And anyway, I can't think of an item that grants an armor class as opposed to an armor BONUS, not even actual armor does that, so I don't even know what you're talking about.
You'll note that the word "bonus" is absent in the first statement.
(...but...this is boring. Let's find something more interesting to fight over.)
Well let's compare it to this statement you made then, maybe that'll liven up your day, I know it will mine.
Because Bracers are a wondrous item, and enchanted clothing is armor; which monks are screwed wearing.
A bonus is not the same thing as armor.
Armor is heavy stuff that weighs you down.(An "enchanted shirt", or however you want to describe it or home-brew-craft in such as way as to not nerf a monk, is a wondrous item, not armor)
EDIT: And anyway, I can't think of an item that grants an armor class as opposed to an armor BONUS, not even actual armor does that, so I don't even know what you're talking about.
Maybe AD&D, where armor and similar effects (such as bracers of armor and mage armor) would "set your base armor class at X" rather than granting you a -(10-X) bonus to your armor class (lower AC was better).
Topic says it all, can a monk enchant his clothing?
I'd have no problem as a DM allowing a character's clothing to be enchanted. You gain the enhancement bonus that enchanting gets but without any benefit of any "natural" armor bonus.
As someone else said the Robe of the Archmagi provides a defense boost and (I think).
As for making it cost more (as Bracers of Armor) I'm not entirely sure. RAW that might need to be the case but from a logical standpoint there's nothing fundamentally different from a well-made (masterwork) outfit than a masterwork suit of (cloth) armor save thread count.
As for making it cost more (as Bracers of Armor) I'm not entirely sure. RAW that might need to be the case but from a logical standpoint there's nothing fundamentally different from a well-made (masterwork) outfit than a masterwork suit of (cloth) armor save thread count.
The cost for bracers and the enhancement bonus for armors is identical though.
Topic says it all, can a monk enchant his clothing?
I believe the rules state that normal clothing is Armor +0. Since it is not Armor -, you should be able to enchant clothing with the normal armor enchantment process.
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Topic says it all, can a monk enchant his clothing?I'd treat it as bracers of armor that take up a different slot, otherwise, I don't see the harm in it.Now that works for me. Just wouldn't allow Bracers of Armor to stack with clothes that have a +5 enhancement bonus, for example.
Absolutely. It would still be providing an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC, which would not stack with bracers of armor, since they also provide an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC.
There is also a spell somewhere (magic vestment?) which gives armor a temporary enhancement bonus and says that you can treat normal clothes as armor with an AC value of 0 for the purposes of enhancing them with it. More precedent.
Bracers provide an armor bonus, not an enhancement bonus. A monk could, for example, gain full benefit from bracers of armor + a ring of protection.
An enhancement bonus to clothing would simply be moving the location of the enhancement bonus. As has been pointed out, this is already done with robes of the magi.
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Topic says it all, can a monk enchant his clothing?
Somehow I guessed you were a Monk. They usually ask this question(I did a long time ago when I first started playing one!)
The answer is No, not by the RAW rules. You basically cannot wear ANYTHING on your Armor(Not to be confused with Chest or Body) spot.
You could Certainly talk your GM into allowing it though. It's not exactly gamebreaking and it will help you keep up with your fellow comrades and all of the awesome stuff they get from their armor and weapons. :)
The simple way to tell if an item is a valid target for armor enhancements is this:
Does the item in a completely unenhanced state provide a bonus to AC?
If yes, it is armor; it can be enhanced with any of the armor abilities, but will also cause penalties for monks if they wear it. If no, then it is not armor, and is not a valid target.
A normal cloth robe does not provide AC. It is not armor, and therefore isn't a valid target for armor enhancements.
Hm. If you could buy enchanted clothing as easily as enchanted armor, then no-one would want Bracers of Armor, since they use up the wrist slot and clothes are slotless. (Unless you want to say that your clothes take up the body slot.)
This would mean that high level monks would never change their clothes.
If you cannot enchant normal clothing with a +1 enchantment my good fellow, then how do you explain the normal articles of clothing that have special abilities?
Read what I said, please:
Does the item in a completely unenhanced state provide a bonus to AC?
A set of clothing in a completely unenhanced state does not offer any AC bonus. Therefore it is not armor. That does not mean it cannot be enhanced to grant an armor bonus; that still does not make it armor, it makes it a wondrous item.
As to rules quotations:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
If clothing could count as armor normally, then the highlighted line would be unnecessary. It however states that for the purposes of that spell only, you can count clothing as armor for that spell.
Now, you state above that Monk's Robes don't make sense because you must have an enhancement bonus before you can enchant something further.
But read what you actually quoted:
Most magic armor and shields have only enhancement bonuses. Such items can also have one or more of the special abilities detailed below. Armor or a shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
The monk's robes aren't armor; therefore, they do not need a +1 before they can have enhancements added to them. That said, that also implies that because they are not armor, they aren't a valid target for enhancements that require armor.
Wait, as to the original question, why was this such a heated argument?
"Can you enchant your clothing?"
If they have items in the game like Robes, that are magically enchanted, regardless of what effects or abilities they give, then the answer is obviously yes!
If you couldn't then those items would never exist!
You can enchant clothing. You don't even need the +1 enhancement bonus on it first. Why? Because that's a requirement for enhancing armor. And clothing is not armor. Therefore it's not a valid target for any enhancements that require they be placed on armor.
You've actually answered your own question; your confusion seems to stem from the fact that you're assuming that clothing = armor, and that's not true.
Depends on the spell. There's a list of spells that can be made permanent; if it's on that list, then you can probably assume that a GM will allow you to make it permanent.
Outside of that, permanency does state the GM can allow other spells, so it would be up to your GM whether any given spell could be made permanent.
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Rules are Rules.
If it is listed here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor
Than it is Armor or Shield. It goes in the respective slot. It can be enchanted or enhanced with it's respective property choices. There may be other Armors and Shields listed in the Specific Armor/Shield section as well. Clothing is not among any of those though. Clothing would be a Chest item.
Enhancements/Enchants can be applied to Weapons, Shields, and Armor only. If you don't like this, then work with your DM. It requires a houserule. If I were the DM, I'd allow it because Monks have it tough enough as is. However, the RAW of this won't change anytime soon, if ever.
Wonderous items are your best bet as Armor of ANY kind will make you suffer with several penalties. There is one, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes(I think) that can possibly be enchanted for +7 worth of whatever, but I am unsure if that is RAW or not. Typically it grants up for up to +7 Attack(max) on up to 4 attacks with a full attack or flurry, per round. That's a decent alternative but I do not know how it would function with other enchants even if it is legal.
If you want, I can provide you with a Monk/Druid build that focuses on very strong IUS damage and allows the use of armor in Wildshape.
I feel like I'm helping to beat a dead horse here, but here's my 2 cents:
I am of the opinion that you can enchant clothing with armor enchantment bonuses.
Why:
* You have magical robes that exist that provide this bonus.
*You have magical bracers that provide this bonus.
*There are amulets and rings that exist that provide similar bonuses (Amulet of Natural Armor, Rings of Protection).
*You have the item creation rules that offer ways of creating custom items that provide armor bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Creating-Wondrous-Items), though bonuses in slots not typically used for those items is discouraged / cautioned against.
I also don't think enchanted clothing in this case would count as armor for use of a monk's abilities. The magic is providing the bonus, not the clothing itself, so there should be no difference between a monk wearing a t-shirt and having his/her bonuses compared to a +3 t-shirt. It's the physical nature of the armor itself that hampers the bonus.
I DO believe that the enchanted clothing would take up the body OR chest slot (DM's call, I lean body here), just like any other magical item would.
This last one is personally just my opinion, but I believe that there are better chest / body items vs. wrist items where bracers of armor reside. If a player wants to limit their chest/body slot to enchanted clothing, all the better for my monsters to eat them. No vest of escape for you, or robes of the archmage, or whatever other item tickles your fancy.
Of course, this is my opinion, and people are subject to their own opinions, so my reasons may not be good as far as other people are concerned. Take them as you like.
/end dead horse beating.
If you cannot enchant normal clothing with a +1 enchantment my good fellow, then how do you explain the normal articles of clothing that have special abilities?
As I had said previous, the only ways I can think of are that normal clothing can indeed be given +1, or that they ignore this requirement all together and may be magically crafted with armor giving spells, thus making normal cloths offer magical AC benefits.
1. The items you're thinking of are not normal "articles of clothing" they are specific woundrous items EACH of which have their own enchantment formula.
2. The Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat which is how standard magical armor is made is specific that the target of the enchantment MUST be a masterwork weapon, armor, or shield. Your "normal article of clothing" does not qualify.
Bracers of Armor are wondrous items. So let's use the formula for a fellow wondrous item then shall we? Oh look, it's the same.
I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I suggest if for some reason you want your "clothes" to provide armor and somebody has a problem with that just purchase haramaki or silken ceremonial armor. Boom. "Clothing" that counts as armor.
Of course, this will not bypass the loss that monks will experience with wearing any armor. But then, as a GM if you enchanted clothing to provide AC I would still rule that it removed it since you're wearing it as armor.
Bracers of Armor of course work fine.
I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I suggest if for some reason you want your "clothes" to provide armor and somebody has a problem with that just purchase haramaki or silken ceremonial armor. Boom. "Clothing" that counts as armor.
And since it's armor, it denies the monk many of his class features. Just because it's light and made of cloth doesn't mean the monk can wear it and retain his class features (at least as far as I'm aware).
That's really what the post was about - how to give a monk a method to get armor enhancements without having to actually wear armor, or without paying the advanced cost of non-armor that grants armor enhancements while still retaining monk class features.
I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I suggest if for some reason you want your "clothes" to provide armor and somebody has a problem with that just purchase haramaki or silken ceremonial armor. Boom. "Clothing" that counts as armor.
Of course, this will not bypass the loss that monks will experience with wearing any armor. But then, as a GM if you enchanted clothing to provide AC I would still rule that it removed it since you're wearing it as armor.
Bracers of Armor of course work fine.
How does that make sense?
The rules for enchanting things are simple. 1 do the rupes cover it? If yes look for examples in the game that do something similar to what you want.
This tells us that 1 barring the exception of 1 spell clothing is never treated like armor.
Every ac item in the game that is not armor is basically enchanted like bracers of armor ring of defle tion amulet of nat armor etc.
There are zero game exsmples ( that I am aware of) of non armor being enchanted like armor.
How does that make sense?I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I suggest if for some reason you want your "clothes" to provide armor and somebody has a problem with that just purchase haramaki or silken ceremonial armor. Boom. "Clothing" that counts as armor.
Of course, this will not bypass the loss that monks will experience with wearing any armor. But then, as a GM if you enchanted clothing to provide AC I would still rule that it removed it since you're wearing it as armor.
Bracers of Armor of course work fine.
I guess you are referring to why would I not allow someone to enchant robes to provide AC bonus like normal armor?
If that is your question then the answer is because doing otherwise allows the monk to bypass the limitation (at least partially) set out by the class. If the monk wants AC bonus (and since it can't come from armor without losing class features) he would need to use Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, and Bracers of Armor. As a GM I would allow him to change the slot to another slot but it would still have to be priced as bracers of armor, not as normal armor. Normal armor is cheaper to enchant but interferes with the monk class features. This is not a bug, this is a feature. Its supposed to do this. You should not be allowed to bypass by simply saying "my clothing is armor that doesn't count as armor!"
Also, I agree with MajorRat's statements as well. You have non-armor items that provide AC/natural armor/deflection bonuses and allowing something else, at a cheaper price would be an injustice to the game.
How does that make sense?I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I suggest if for some reason you want your "clothes" to provide armor and somebody has a problem with that just purchase haramaki or silken ceremonial armor. Boom. "Clothing" that counts as armor.
Of course, this will not bypass the loss that monks will experience with wearing any armor. But then, as a GM if you enchanted clothing to provide AC I would still rule that it removed it since you're wearing it as armor.
Bracers of Armor of course work fine.
I guess you are referring to why would I not allow someone to enchant robes to provide AC bonus like normal armor?
If that is your question then the answer is because doing otherwise allows the monk to bypass the limitation (at least partially) set out by the class. If the monk wants AC bonus (and since it can't come from armor without losing class features) he would need to use Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, and Bracers of Armor. As a GM I would allow him to change the slot to another slot but it would still have to be priced as bracers of armor, not as normal armor. Normal armor is cheaper to enchant but interferes with the monk class features. This is not a bug, this is a feature. Its supposed to do this. You should not be allowed to bypass by simply saying "my clothing is armor that doesn't count as armor!"
Also, I agree with MajorRat's statements as well. You have non-armor items that provide AC/natural armor/deflection bonuses and allowing something else, at a cheaper price would be an injustice to the game.
Oh I see the problem. You are ok with moving bracers of armor to the, let's say chest slot or body slot, but you don't want that to affect the price of the item.
That's fine. But I would like to point out that the enhancement bonus for bracers IS actually the same as the price for the same enhancement on a suit of armor. This makes sense according to the item creation rules.
Oh I see the problem. You are ok with moving bracers of armor to the, let's say chest slot or body slot, but you don't want that to affect the price of the item.
That's fine. But I would like to point out that the enhancement bonus for bracers IS actually the same as the price for the same enhancement on a suit of armor. This makes sense according to the item...
True, that the price is the same but its not only the price that is relevant, but the fact that Bracers of Armor are limited to a +8 total enhancement bonus instead of 10. Addmittedly I didn't look at the price for BoA versus enchanting armor, but to me the important part is making sure the functionality of armor is usurped by making other items into "armor".
With the existence of the robe of the archmagi, gunman's duster, and corset of witchcraft (the latter 2 can be worn by a monk for the AC benefit alone) I don't see why clothing couldn't be enchanted to provide an armor bonus. Cost of bracers of armor seems to fit after one estimates of the cost of those stated items other abilities and remove them for the armor bonus cost.
Yup, it's valid.