I'm told errata isn't released for download unless a new printing is done.
That sounds ludicrous to me. What if there is no new print run? Does that mean no fixes to errors?
What if a new print run doesn't happen for months? Why must we wait that long, those of us that have it? It's silly.
It's like sending in my TV to get fixed but the company says ,"We can't fix it until all these models of TV are sold out of stock and our improved model is manufactured."
Probably because writing in the errata takes enough time and effort to make it non-economical to modify the PDF after every errata session, and so they instead wait for a new printing of the book to fix it.
The FAQs have evolved into errata-in-progress.
The FAQs have evolved into errata-in-progress.
See, now that's progress! They don't have to modify the PDFs everytime something pops. But when there's huge chunks people are pouring out and it's been a whole year with nothing to show for it, yeah, someone needs to just do it and stop procrastinating. What exactly is the long wait for?
Bestiary 2 has been out almost a year I think and still no errata doc to show for it? Personally, I believe errata should be done once a quarter. The first one after the 1st month the book is released, because you already have a 5+ page thread pointing out the errors by that point.
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The FAQs have evolved into errata-in-progress.See, now that's progress! They don't have to modify the PDFs everytime something pops. But when there's huge chunks people are pouring out and it's been a whole year with nothing to show for it, yeah, someone needs to just do it and stop procrastinating. What exactly is the long wait for?
Bestiary 2 has been out almost a year I think and still no errata doc to show for it? Personally, I believe errata should be done once a quarter. The first one after the 1st month the book is released, because you already have a 5+ page thread pointing out the errors by that point.
In today's episode of Razz Rage...
You two should totally do a bro-fist every time you agree on something. :p
Would be so hot for this if meant 5 dollar more per book. Or one less hard back book per year?
Razz, they can do quarterly updates to errata once they are ahead of schedule. As of right now, I'm pretty sure they are working hard at keeping even with the workload.Yeah, that's the snark-less version of what I was trying to post. Thanks, TOZ.
Which is why I don't ignore his posts and do so to yours. Don't see how I'm raging...last I checked, emotions and inflections of voice cannot be interpreted accurately through the Internet. Unless emoticons are used. Maybe we should all use them to avoid unnecessary sarcasm?
Razz,
it kinda sucks and i get what you are saying 100%
me and gorbz had this conversation last night.
paizo has chosen to focus on new products, inorder to keep afloat as i understand it. but as long as they have a faq out for me in a reasonable time I am good to go.
i will teach my kids
1. life is not fair, life is not fair
...just because you are pretty you cant do whatever you want.
You've never worked in an office, have you? :P
Here's a weird realization... we don't really need Paizo to produce errata.
See, most of what's found in the various errata threads we create is cosmetic or unimportant. It doesn't matter if a creature in a Bestiary has one too many or one too few ranks in Perform(lobotomy). Not in real play. It's details that on average really don't impact anything at the table.
That said, those of us with Internet access have those threads available if we want them. I don't know about you, but I haven't gone and printed off that community-errata and stuck it in my books. Why? Because it's all really nit-picky stuff that I can't be bothered to look up in the heat of a fight.
What we need Paizo to concentrate on for product-support is those rules and fluff items that break things. There's very, very little of that. Antagonize, I'm looking at you. Paizo's job is to make official ruling changes, not fix some numbers trivia. Break brass knuckles so they're pointless for monks... only Paizo can do that.
So really, what's the big deal?
Errata after new printing is unfairYou're looking for "fair"!?
Your life must be full of disappointments.
-Kle.
Really? Last I checked, if I have a damaged product then I take it back and either get it fixed or replaced with a new one, at no cost. Why should I not hold a digital book to the same standards?
I understand they have a lot of work to do, but I have seen that work already done by the Ultimate Combat errata thread, all they need to do is sift it and compile it at this point. I just don't see why, after spending money on it, that I have to wait close to a year for the fixes to be uploaded?
Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play. I mean, who cares that the Worm that Walks has one too many cantrips? If an 11th level caster is digging into his cantrips, you must be seriously toying with him and should just finish him off.
I didn't see anything in the list that would cause a game to come to a halt. If you really care that a monster has +/- 3 to a skill he will never roll, there is a robust community errata list already created.
I understand they have a lot of work to do, but I have seen that work already done by the Ultimate Combat errata thread, all they need to do is sift it and compile it at this point. I just don't see why, after spending money on it, that I have to wait close to a year for the fixes to be uploaded?
Ultimate Combat hasn't even been out a month yet, updates will come.
Ultimate Magic already has several FAQs. So why would you expect UC to take a year?
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My mama always told me fair.... You know what it's too easy. Nothing in life is fair and most of our major screw ups as a people is when trying to fix it so things are fair.
It will be out when it is out, for now just try to enjoy the game. If it is a big deal you'll see it sooner.
Would be so hot for this if meant 5 dollar more per book. Or one less hard back book per year?
For me it would be.
The reason i buy the new paizo products as .pdf files is because they are so cheap and don't charge shipping costs to europe, i they were more expensive i might have not bought them.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Really? Last I checked, if I have a damaged product then I take it back and either get it fixed or replaced with a new one, at no cost. Why should I not hold a digital book to the same standards?
I understand they have a lot of work to do, but I have seen that work already done by the Ultimate Combat errata thread, all they need to do is sift it and compile it at this point. I just don't see why, after spending money on it, that I have to wait close to a year for the fixes to be uploaded?
I think you'd have gotten a much more useful response if you had avoided the word "fair" and instead phrased your concern as a request.
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...if I have a damaged product then I take it back and either get it fixed or replaced with a new one, at no cost.
It's an awfully long stretch to justifiably compare a pre-errata sourcebook to a damaged product. It's such a long stretch, in fact, that it weakens any other sensible arguments you may have.
-Skeld
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Ok, I understand the frustration that Razz feels, but I also agree that it's not economically feasible to devote a large chunk of time to a profit-less endeavor when you have bills to pay/mouths to feed/lights to keep on.
All I care about is that the errata is put out EVENTUALLY with EVERY correction, no matter how miniscule. Some people here have said that it's not the end of the world if X creature's swim skill is 1 point higher than it's supposed to be, and you're definitely right; I just want a perfect stat block sometimes, and my anal-retentive brain will scream quietly to itself if it knows it's using a monster with a stat block it knows has errors, no matter how small. It may not be gamebreaking, but it does grate on the mind a bit. Unfortunately one of the many drawbacks to being a perfectionist is expecting the same behavior from others.
my 2 cp
...if I have a damaged product then I take it back and either get it fixed or replaced with a new one, at no cost.It's an awfully long stretch to justifiably compare a pre-errata sourcebook to a damaged product. It's such a long stretch, in fact, that it weakens any other sensible arguments you may have.
-Skeld
I agree with Skeld here. Furthermore, I'd say if you're worried about errata and the fairness of it all, hold off purchasing the book until a later printing or after a errata becomes available. I *love* the books and try to get them as soon as I can; that said, I've yet to purchase anything that is so broken or in such need of errata that I cannot wait till it pops up.
Heck, the guys here are nice enough to get errata out at all. I have dozens if not hundreds of game books, novels, text books and so on that will never ever see any errata or corrections.
...hold off purchasing the book until a later printing or after a errata becomes available.
I actually do wait for at least the 2nd printing, though I buy the PDF right away.
Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play.
Does the undefined ability in the totenmaske entry not have a meaningful impact on play? [That's one I remember off the top of my head.]
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Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play.Does the undefined ability in the totenmaske entry not have a meaningful impact on play? [That's one I remember off the top of my head.]
It's strange that the Devour Memories is in the turnover, and in the version that went to layout, but not in the final book. It must have been cut in a later pass to make it fit with the art, and the reference in the SA line didn't get cut with it. Here's the info:
Devour Memories (Su) A totenmaske can eat the memories and dreams of a creature it bites. The target must make a DC 19 Will save or take 1d4 points of Charisma drain. A totenmaske gains a +4 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a victim whose memories it has drained. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play.Does the undefined ability in the totenmaske entry not have a meaningful impact on play? [That's one I remember off the top of my head.]
It's strange that the Devour Memories is in the turnover, and in the version that went to layout, but not in the final book. It must have been cut in a later pass to make it fit with the art, and the reference in the SA line didn't get cut with it. Here's the info:
Devour Memories (Su) A totenmaske can eat the memories and dreams of a creature it bites. The target must make a DC 19 Will save or take 1d4 points of Charisma drain. A totenmaske gains a +4 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a victim whose memories it has drained. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Is that supposed to be on top of the 1d4 Charisma drain the bite already does?
My guess is that it was cut for space, but the drain was simply added to the bite with no save instead. 2d4 Charisma drain seems rather strong for a CR 7, even with a save to negate 1d4.
Is that supposed to be on top of the 1d4 Charisma drain the bite already does?
The Charisma Drain does have a DC; see the special abilities section. There's even an Ability Focus (Charisma Drain) feat in there.
I think Charisma Drain replaces Devour Memories, but they forgot to change the name in the Special Attacks section. It does lose the +4 bonus to Disguise, and it eats hopes instead of memories, but I think the rest is the same. Maybe they thought someone would take it too literally, and try to figure out what memories are gone after they are eaten?
Thanks for the information, Mr. Reynolds!
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Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play.Does the undefined ability in the totenmaske entry not have a meaningful impact on play? [That's one I remember off the top of my head.]
It's strange that the Devour Memories is in the turnover, and in the version that went to layout, but not in the final book. It must have been cut in a later pass to make it fit with the art, and the reference in the SA line didn't get cut with it. Here's the info:
Devour Memories (Su) A totenmaske can eat the memories and dreams of a creature it bites. The target must make a DC 19 Will save or take 1d4 points of Charisma drain. A totenmaske gains a +4 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a victim whose memories it has drained. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Sean, I keep wondering about the viability of a program that would chew through the text of a doc and try and cross-reference anything in italics against the spell sections in that document and a list of spells from previous products, and spit out a warning if it found nothing. Ditto for abilities. Do you think that this is a feasible approach to catching errors like this one?
Is that supposed to be on top of the 1d4 Charisma drain the bite already does?The Charisma Drain does have a DC; see the special abilities section. There's even an Ability Focus (Charisma Drain) feat in there.
I think Charisma Drain replaces Devour Memories, but they forgot to change the name in the Special Attacks section. It does lose the +4 bonus to Disguise, and it eats hopes instead of memories, but I think the rest is the same. Maybe they thought someone would take it too literally, and try to figure out what memories are gone after they are eaten?
Thanks for the information, Mr. Reynolds!
Ah, I just looked at the melee line. Interesting how that is a DC 21 when Sean's original was a DC 19. DC 21 is kind of rough for a CR 7, which should average DC 17 for primary powers.
This is about the only area where WotC does a better job than Paizo. They put out a full errata pdf every 3-6 months that includes all their hardcover books, or at least they did before switching to the Essentials stuff. I have not touched their website since then.
This is about the only area where WotC does a better job than Paizo. They put out a full errata pdf every 3-6 months that includes all their hardcover books, or at least they did before switching to the Essentials stuff. I have not touched their website since then.
They haven't published anything since then, so you haven't missed anything. *ducks*
Of course, the D&D division of WotC is probably twice the size of Paizo. Everyone keeps expecting Paizo to be able to act like a big company, but they really are a small company that has grown enormously in the last five years. They've been using their success to grow their staff, but the production cycle means that adding a new person today will have a noticeable effect in 9 months.
Creative Director
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Bestiary 2 doesn't have a FAQ yet, but guess what? Nothing in the 140 or so compiled errors have a meaningful impact on actual play.Does the undefined ability in the totenmaske entry not have a meaningful impact on play? [That's one I remember off the top of my head.]
It's strange that the Devour Memories is in the turnover, and in the version that went to layout, but not in the final book. It must have been cut in a later pass to make it fit with the art, and the reference in the SA line didn't get cut with it. Here's the info:
Devour Memories (Su) A totenmaske can eat the memories and dreams of a creature it bites. The target must make a DC 19 Will save or take 1d4 points of Charisma drain. A totenmaske gains a +4 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a victim whose memories it has drained. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Is that supposed to be on top of the 1d4 Charisma drain the bite already does?
My guess is that it was cut for space, but the drain was simply added to the bite with no save instead. 2d4 Charisma drain seems rather strong for a CR 7, even with a save to negate 1d4.
Correct; Devour memories had some cool flavor text, but in order to fit on the page, we cut that flavor text and just tacked the 1d4 Cha drain onto the bite.
I think Charisma Drain replaces Devour Memories, but they forgot to change the name in the Special Attacks section.
I think you're right (my reply was just from skimming the to-layout version and not seeing the Devour Memories paragraph in the printed book.
Edit: Ninja'd by James. :)
Sean, I keep wondering about the viability of a program that would chew through the text of a doc and try and cross-reference anything in italics against the spell sections in that document and a list of spells from previous products, and spit out a warning if it found nothing. Ditto for abilities. Do you think that this is a feasible approach to catching errors like this one?
While automation can be very helpful for that sort of thing, as the guy who wrote (and is constantly updating) our stat block spreadsheet, I can tell you that it's still going to miss stuff, and you're going to have to manually override/ignore things it's catching as "errors," and such a program still wouldn't catch things made once the text is in layout (we do 2 edit passes in layout, and I hesitate to think about the complexity of a program trying to check out and search each text block in an InDesign document. So, in a perfect world, yes, that would help... but getting it up and running would require a significant investment in time and error-checking that wouldn't give returns for a while.
I removed a couple posts. What people do in other parts of the internet has little bearing here.
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In my opinion books have errors. The job of the publisher is to do their best to minimise those - an error-free product is an impossible standard to meet on practical grounds. I dont think there is any implied warrant that the books are error free, nor that future updates will be provided to correct any errors drawn to the publisher's attention.
On this view, identifying a book with errors as "damaged" or otherwise flawed merchandise in some sense is a mischaracterisation. Paizo try and incorporate any discovered errors into later printings and they update the PDFs from time to time at no charge. This is beyond the call of duty - demanding it be done more rapidly is like quibbling that an item on sale for half-price should be marked down further.
The only such complaint I would consider to be somewhat legitimate are those people who bought the second printing of Adventurer's Armoury, reasonably expecting it to be heavily amended whereas in fact it was practically identical to the first printing.