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I'm looking at running this adventure path for some of my friends. As a whole in our personal games we've always leaned towards 25pt buy. With premade adventures geared towards different numbers of players/character point buys it might disrupt the balance of the game. That being said, how much difference would 5 extra points really make?
Opinions? I'm basically just wanting to see if anyone else is using 25 point buy, and the effects it's had on their games. Thanks!
I'm looking at running this adventure path for some of my friends. As a whole in our personal games we've always leaned towards 25pt buy. With premade adventures geared towards different numbers of players/character point buys it might disrupt the balance of the game. That being said, how much difference would 5 extra points really make?
Opinions? I'm basically just wanting to see if anyone else is using 25 point buy, and the effects it's had on their games. Thanks!
I believe (and if I'm wrong, someone, I am sure, will correct me) that the pre-made characters are built with a 15-point buy, and the modules and APs are written with a 15-point buy, four-person party assumption.
That said, if you have a party of four with a 25-point buy, you might consider upping a few encounters. If you have more than four in your party, you might want to consider the same, even with a 15-point buy. But you can always allow the 25-points and see how things go, adjusting accordingly once you've a sense for how they fare. The experience of the players, how their characters are built, etc., can alter encounters more than the points they're given. Your dragon's mileage may vary... :)
So 15pt buy is the standard? I thought it was 20pt buy. 10pts is a bigger gap than I had considered. I'll have to consider the group carefully beforehand.
Then again, the power increase of higher point buy is also dependent on how the players spend it.
Very true. One thing that's worked for me when dealing with more powerful characters (even non-optimized), however, is making the encounters more powerful in some way. Whether this is adding more monsters* or beefing up the "core" beastie** or both**, or simply peppering more (or focusing more on the existing) role-play-required events (or, again, both!). This helps mitigate some of the excess power that you might otherwise have, while still retaining the near super-heroic feel of the characters. They are truly heroes and powerful ones, worthy of admiration and respect.
One thing to keep in mind in Jade Regent especially (I'm presuming, as you've posted here that this is the AP you're thinking of), is that Charisma is very important. If you either strongly suggest away from (good) or outright ban (not often as good) charisma-based classes (bard, paladin, sorcerer) you can justify having the much higher points to spend on charisma, allowing you to avoid it as a dump stat, while enabling your characters to have something that the campaign strongly rewards having (via the Relationship Mechanic found in the Player's Guide).
Hope that helps.
One fun alternate idea that I use on occasion with this one is to role a random encounter twice. In this case the PCs actually come across two different groups of monsters, either working together, already fighting or hunting one another, or just kind of in the same vicinity, waiting to take advantage of a situation to jump in. The first makes an encounter easier, but memorable. I still have players mentioning the time they found the lion and hyena pack fighting... they sided with the lion and the druid got a new friend. The second two make it much, much more difficult... and also memorable. It all depends on the creatures you use and their tactics.
Still, the double encounter is something that should be used sparingly or with great forethought before hand. The conflicting sides are especially useful with too-high a level, while the others are great for making a low-level encounter much more dangerous (and thus interesting).
So 15pt buy is the standard? I thought it was 20pt buy. 10pts is a bigger gap than I had considered. I'll have to consider the group carefully beforehand.
Then again, the power increase of higher point buy is also dependent on how the players spend it.
The Core rules set the benchmark at 15 points, Pathfinder Society organized play uses 20 points, and 4d6-drop-the-lowest can vary widely, from about 15-35+ depending, because the purchase method generally punishes above-average single stats (two 16's rolled with dice would be 20 purchased points).
In my experience, unless you're trying to rein an obnoxious powergamer, there's no reason to fetishize balance. If your party is having things too easy, there are plenty of small tweaks you make behind the screen (giving monsters above-average rolls on their HD is a simple change that sneak in an extra round without breaking verisimilitude) once you're underway. 5 points on a purchase/point method isn't going to make a large difference, compared to a fifth or sixth player in the party, which does take some adjusting.
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Thanks for the tips, I really like that double encounter idea. I'll be throwing that into the game sometime. Like any good trick, it needs to be used sparingly, but I can't wait to see the expression on my player's face.
For the most part, I agree that a few extra ability score points won't wreck the game balance. After a few levels it will diminish even more. However, those points can come in handy early on, and since the first few levels are the most brutal that does change up the feel a bit. Extra characters are the real game changer. I ran the first two parts of Kingmaker with a group that fluctuated between six and eight players. While other groups were writing up their obituaries, we only ever lost one character, and that was to a randomly rolled assassination. I had to start doing some significant adjusting.
Anyway, appreciate the advice. Cheers!
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One thing I have learned is that as the point buy get's smaller, so does the variety of classes that will show up in the game. In opposition to the prevailing conventional wisdom, I'd suggest NOT lowering stats when more players show up, as it will encourage some of the more MAD classes to be played.
MAD classes get little play time in new groups becous it is very hard to make them work as intended. They may get made. Soon after playing a few times they change characters. It requires alot of game knowlage to make them work. So changing point buy only hurt or helps the group with the knowlage in how to make the character.
Just a few examples of point buys. I have used for MAD and SAD.
MAD 15 Point buy human
17, 14, 14, 12, 10, 7
MAD 20 Point buy human
17, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10
MAD 25 Point buy human
17, 14, 14, 14, 10, 8
SAD 15 Point buy human
19, 14, 12, 10, 9, 7
SAD 20 Point buy human
19, 16, 10, 10, 9, 7
SAD 25 Point buy human
19, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10
You notice in 15 point buy. You have to pick what your going to be bad at. With a 20 or 25 point buy you don't. You can chose to be ok at every thing. That is why I recomend lower point buy for exp players.
With a 25 Point buy. Some crazy person will come up with a bard. That can fill the following roles in the party. Healing, Face, Buffer, Knowlage(All), Trap Monkey, And Linguist. So with one 25 point buy bard you can fill 3 primary roles in the party and 3 secondary roles.
Just my opinion, but I would only go 25 point buy if the party had less than 4 players.
Maybe something like this:
25 points = 3 or less players
20 points = 4 or 5 players
15 points = 6 players
10 points = 7 or more players
[Just a few examples of point buys. I have used for MAD and SAD.
I'm sorry... MAD? SAD? (I'm still learning all the RPG acronyms.)
MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependancy. Basically a class that requires a character to have multiple high attributes to function properly or well. Best examples are monk and paladin.
SAD = Single Attribute Dependance. A class that can excel by dumping all their resources into boosting a single attribute. The most successful of these are Wizard and Sorc., as they can push their primary casting stat to ridiculous levels and be awesome.
Multiple Attribute Dependency
Single Attribute Dependency
It refers to how many of the 6 ability scores a class need to be effective at what they 'do'. For instance, a Wizard really only needs a high Intelligence score to do their job well; they are a SAD class. On the opposite side, Paladins need good Charisma for many of their abilities but still need decent physical attributes just like a Fighter would; they are a MAD class.
multiple attribute dependency
single attribute dependency
refers to classes which require several decent scores versus those who work well with only one high stat.
edit: why did I even try? double ninja'd
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My ninja-fu is MIGHTY!
That makes sense. Thank you, gentlemen.
25 points is ok, but the GM must insist on having well rounded indviduals (no 8 int or 6 cha)
If you let everyone min max then your mods will be annhilated
IME
My experience has been that the starting stats of the characters make a big difference at low levels (1-3) and increasingly less of a difference as levels get higher. I am fine with greater survivability in the first adventure, so this works for me.
The tactics that the characters use and their understanding of the rules/mechanics makes a much bigger difference in the game than does stats.
My advice would be to tell your players you are going with point buy give them the choice of 15, 20 or 25 and as a group they need to decide, then not give it much thought.
You will find that whether or not you need to adjust encounters will have far more to do with their tactics and group make-up than which decision they went with here.
Sean Mahoney
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Yeah, I use 25 pt buy, but I do put restrictions on 'dump' stats. Usually I won't let anybody have more than one ability score below 10. Furthermore all of their stats have to jive with the character concept. Usually I refuse to let anybody play with an intelligence below 10 because most people don't really play a low int properly. There have been a couple notable exceptions in our group, but usually not.
Since people in my group tend to be more well-rounded, that probably keeps 25 points from being too extreme a difference. Also I like it because the characters get to feel a little more heroic and exceptional.
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I am used to PFS 20 point builds so I plan on using them. That said, 25 isn't too bad if you have good role players that will put the extra points in off-stats.
One thing that my GM did in a previous AP when we were getting ahead of the power curve, was just add +2 to Attack, AC, and DCs of the boss mobs. Then up the hit points by 2 per HD. Quick and dirty without much fuss.
I would play the first part as written regardless of your point buy. Just keep an eye on how they deal with the boss encounter in the caves. Then figure out if you need to adjust the boss encounters in part 3. Adding a few extra trash mobs should not break the mod either or combine a few encounters if you are worried about the XP.