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To the OP, there is a barbarian guide in the advice forum. forgot about it.
Might be worth looking at.
I did look at it, but... I'm thinking I'm going to blaze my own path on this one. I didn't particularly like the old guide, and it's largely incomplete at the moment.
Amused that the barbarian seems to speak like Bizarro.
If you want to tackle it, I would suggest looking at multi-class barbarian "archetypes." Most would probably be one level dips or so, but the barbarian/monk, barbarian/oracle and barbarian/fighter seem to be good combinations.
One thing that might be helpful, is treat the Pouncing CaGM Invulnerable Rager as your base, and compare other things to that build. I think that is the type of character that people are initially thinking about when they come to barbs. Cause the vanilla basebook barb is a little sad.
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IMO the best barbarians are non-iconics: guys who alleviate their worthless armor-class by primarily using pole-arms, bows, or UMD/multiclasses for defenses like Mirror Image.I'd like to point out that if the best response to be had involves several full round actions and is still foiled by paying for a permanent 2nd level spell, the build is likely a good one.
Heh.
(Er, what happens to a "killed" image in a Mirror Image if the spell is permanent? When I pay for it, does the guy tattooing the mystic runes into my biceps guarantee a maximum die-roll's worth of images? Do they turn off when I'm bedding my lady? Enquiring barbarians want to know!)
You can't permanency a Mirror Image, sadly. A See invisibility will foil anything sneakin' up on you, though...
I'll have to add 'Lots of Constitution Barbarians' and 'Multiclass options' to my theorycrafting list.
Amused that the barbarian seems to speak like Bizarro.
That came about entirely as the result of a C-M D thread I happened to participate in.
And by 'participate' I mean 'yell really loud about how barbarians beat everyone always.'
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M,kay
I've updated my Barb.
Had to lose Stepup and Lunge (which were his defense against Reach opponents) to fit Raging Brutality and Raging Deathblow.
Not sure about Raging Deathblow. May not be needed.
Comments welcome. Good for what ails you may not be needed either since he's unlikely to fail a save.
While I LOVE the Knockdown and Knockback rage powers, I could see where to fit them. Str Surge Makes you eat an AOO but it gets the job done. Or he can use a reach weapon and not take the AOO.
Build: Invulnerable Rager 20
Race: Human (Heart of the fields- 1/day ignore fatigue or exhaustion)
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Ability Scores:
STR 17 +2 Human (Level to 22, Belt of Physical Perfection 28)
DEX 13 (Level to 14 Belt of Physical Perfection 20)
CON 17 (Level to 18 Belt of Physical Perfection 23 +5 Manual =28)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 7
Favored Class:
Human= 4 skill points per level, Favored Bonus: 2 to skills, 18 to Superstition
Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
Extreme Endurance, Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
DR2/-, Reckless Abandon
Combat Reflexes
DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem
Extra Rage Power: Roused Anger
DR4/-, Superstition
Cold Resist2, Extra Rage Power: Moment of Clarity
DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
Greater Rage Dazing Assault
Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
Raging Brutality
[b]DR7/-, Witchhunter
Cold Resist4, Raging Deathblow
DR8/-, Spell Sunder
Tireless Rage, Surprise Accuracy
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Unexpected Strike
Extra Rage Power: Flesh Wound
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for what Ails you.
Gets Pounce,CaGM, Dazing Assault- You guys see how this works!!
Hit level 17 and start cycling your 1/rage powers.
Saves (raging)
Fort 12+4(Mighty rage)+9(ConMod+Belt)+5(Cloak of Resist)+6(Superstition)= 36
Ref 6+5(Dex Mod+Belt)+5(Cloak of Resist)+6(Superstition)=22
Will 6+4(Mighty rage)+5(Cloak of Resist)+6(Superstition)= 21
*These could be higher with more gear.*
Adds +6 to damage vs casters (re:nearly everything after CR10)
Adds +13damage (Con Mod x 1.5)per strike when using Raging Brutality.
Your attack at 20 is 20 +4(Mighty Rage) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +6(Reckless Abandon)+6(str)+2(Furious Weapon)- 6(PA)= 40/35/30/25
PA/Hasted 41/41/36/31/26
PA/Dazing Assault/Haste 36/36/31/26/21
PA/Dazing Assault/Flanking 40/40/35/30/25
Damage with +5 Furious, Corrosive, Menacing, Keen, Ghost Touch Greatsword is 2d6 +19(1.5 x str w/belt, Mighty Rage)+18(PA)+ +5(enhancement)+1d6(acid)+ 2(Furious)= av 54 per hit
60 vs Casters
73 when using Raging Brutality vs a Caster.
A fighter CANNOT match this TO HIT bonus and only the Two Handed Fighter can do as much damage per strike (thanks to Gtr Power Attack and Backswing) and he can't pounce of use CaGM
AC is a bit crap:
AC- 10+2(dex)+3(belt)+6(breastplate)+5(amulet)+5(ring)+5(armor enhancement)+5(defending armor spikes)+4(beast totem)-6(reckless abandon)=39 when raging and 35 with Come and get me.
Have you friendly caster use mirror Image on you.
But you do have the HP and Damage output to kick a$$.
@STR Ranger
Thank you for posting the build.
Small thing though, you have to attack with the armor spikes to get the +5 to AC (defending) to activate. Without that attack we are looking at 30 AC with come and get me.
Superstition actually makes you less likely to die.
Superstition actually makes you less likely to die.
This. You can actually make your saves much better with superstichin'.
One lovely thing my Barbarian did is ping out of rage as a free action whenever he needed healing, negated the fatigue through some means, and then keep goign as soon as he got it. Once our party had access to heal, he didn't even need to avoid fatigue. The times he needed healing were relatively rare though. Generally he just hit stuff and it died.
Something Awesome
Well. I have an archetypical CAGM build now.
This is officially really freaking good.
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Thanks for the thanks. I just want to once again stress Horizon Walker as excellent synergy for the Barbarian. Yes, you need Endurance, but after three levels you can come out of it with immunity to fatigue, and not losing a point of BAB in the process. There are a lot of other great goodies there to be had as well, Dimension Door coming to mind first of all.
Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.
This is indeed a problem. Consider potions or other such means to get your mirror image up, STR, or maybe a different form of attack negation?
Status update: I've gotten through Races on the Mounted Barbarian, and am dissecting archetypes now.
Side statement: Elf Barbarians are horrible. I need a color below red to express just how bad they are. (Don't try prove me wrong, I'm going to try and prove myself wrong later. I have a crazy idea.(TM))
Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.
True. If you are playing with traits there is a trait that will give you UMD as a class skill plus give you a slight bump. Basically lets a barbarian with bad charisma still have a decent UMD. Then just buy the wand (stupid cheap) and go to town.
STR Ranger's iconic Invulnerable Rager build Stuff.
I noticed you ghost touched your weapon. Might want to check out Ghost Rager power. If you can squeeze it in it has two things going for it. 1) While raging all damage from you is normal (its like having ghost touch on all weapons you wield). 2) You add you superstition bonus to your touch AC. With your build, this is a +7 to touch AC.
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Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.Side statement: Elf Barbarians are horrible. I need a color below red to express just how bad they are. (Don't try prove me wrong, I'm going to try and prove myself wrong later. I have a crazy idea.(TM))
Go with Pink? Neon Orange? Rainbow?
Keep in mind you could make a very *very* fast Urban Barbarian when you take into consideration the Elf's favoured Class bonus. Yes, you'd lose fast movement initially, but you'd eventually have a Base Movement speed of 50ft, and Urban could give you a raging DEX which would stack with an Elf's high DEX to make the excellent and nigh-uncatchable archer.
As an example, a 20 point buy could land you:
14 STR
16 DEX
14 CON (16-2)
12 INT (10+2
12 WIS
8 CHA
The Elf Barbarian could give himself a 20 DEX, or split it up into a 16 STR, 18 DEX, and would be a much more sturdy Barbarian, in that they would not be in melee range. The favoured class bonus, with 5 levels gives 5 feet of movement, making up for fast movement by level 10, and surpassing it at level 15. Nevermind the fact that an archer is bound to wear light armour, and so will be taking full advantage of this movement anyway.
Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.Side statement: Elf Barbarians are horrible. I need a color below red to express just how bad they are. (Don't try prove me wrong, I'm going to try and prove myself wrong later. I have a crazy idea.(TM))Go with Pink? Neon Orange? Rainbow?
Keep in mind you could make a very *very* fast Urban Barbarian when you take into consideration the Elf's favoured Class bonus. Yes, you'd lose fast movement initially, but you'd eventually have a Base Movement speed of 50ft, and Urban could give you a raging DEX which would stack with an Elf's high DEX to make the excellent and nigh-uncatchable archer.
As an example, a 20 point buy could land you:
14 STR
16 DEX
14 CON (16-2)
12 INT (10+2
12 WIS
8 CHAThe Elf Barbarian could give himself a 20 DEX, or split it up into a 16 STR, 18 DEX, and would be a much more sturdy Barbarian, in that they would not be in melee range. The favoured class bonus, with 5 levels gives 5 feet of movement, making up for fast movement by level 10, and surpassing it at level 15. Nevermind the fact that an archer is bound to wear light armour, and so will be taking full advantage of this movement anyway.
I was actually going to be trying a dervish dance build, but archers are good too.. I'll have to give both a look.
Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.This is indeed a problem. Consider potions or other such means to get your mirror image up, STR, or maybe a different form of attack negation?
Personal spells can't become potions.
Personal spells can't become potions.Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.This is indeed a problem. Consider potions or other such means to get your mirror image up, STR, or maybe a different form of attack negation?
Hrm. That leaves a umd wand, or else using a different kind of attack mitigation.
Go Go gadget UMD. As a side effect you get to use alot of other fun personal spells. My barbarian usually charges into battle with a 70 ft movement - expeditious charge (retreat for the squishies). Lead blades is also another great one, expecially if you go the enlarge person vital strike path. Takes that medium size greatsword and makes it huge, then vital strike doubles that.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Small point about mirror image: Range = personal. You can't have someone else cast it on you.This is indeed a problem. Consider potions or other such means to get your mirror image up,
Alas, you can't make potions of spells with a range of personal.
In theory you could make single-use wondrous items that cost the same and did the same thing as potions, so you could make an edible sugar cube of mirror image or something of that sort (if I'm remembering correctly), but I'd think most GMs might balk at that as cheesy.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Go Go gadget UMD. As a side effect you get to use alot of other fun personal spells. My barbarian usually charges into battle with a 70 ft movement - expeditious charge (retreat for the squishies). Lead blades is also another great one, expecially if you go the enlarge person vital strike path. Takes that medium size greatsword and makes it huge, then vital strike doubles that.
The only problem with self-UMD for barbarians is action economy, and the investment required to be decently good. If you have unlimited time to keep making UMD checks, it works fine, but if you've dumped CHA then even with the +1 trait bonus and +3 for treating it as a class skill, you're probably not going to even get to 50/50 chance of success with a wand until you're 7th level, unless you drop a feat in Skill Focus, even taking max ranks in UMD. You're probably already maxing Acrobatics, Perception, and (usually) Survival. You can do it, but it's a tight fit.
I mean, it can still work, I'm just sayin' it's not the easiest schtick to pull off reliably.
Go Go gadget UMD. As a side effect you get to use alot of other fun personal spells. My barbarian usually charges into battle with a 70 ft movement - expeditious charge (retreat for the squishies). Lead blades is also another great one, expecially if you go the enlarge person vital strike path. Takes that medium size greatsword and makes it huge, then vital strike doubles that.The only problem with self-UMD for barbarians is action economy, and the investment required to be decently good. If you have unlimited time to keep making UMD checks, it works fine, but if you've dumped CHA then even with the +1 trait bonus and +3 for treating it as a class skill, you're probably not going to even get to 50/50 chance of success with a wand until you're 7th level, unless you drop a feat in Skill Focus, even taking max ranks in UMD. You're probably already maxing Acrobatics, Perception, and (usually) Survival. You can do it, but it's a tight fit.
I mean, it can still work, I'm just sayin' it's not the easiest schtick to pull off reliably.
Your absolutely right. Its not something you can pull off every combat at low levels. Sometimes you get the prep time you need and failing a couple UMD checks befor getting it doesn't matter. I mainly have it because my Barb plays PFS and you never know who will be at the table. Having a way to UMD a wand of CLW is a great backup when no one at the table can cast the spell.
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If you cheat and stack morale bonuses like they're not supposed to, and "forget" to make your save when the cleric is trying to heal you on his turn right after you took a crit to the face on the monster's turn -- saves you'll especially have to forget to make if they're so awesome you always make 'em.Superstition actually makes you less likely to die.This. You can actually make your saves much better with superstichin'.
One lovely thing my Barbarian did is ping out of rage as a free action whenever he needed healing,
And exactly how does he do that when it's not his turn? A free action is not an immediate action.
Is he also giving up his 60hp-worth of Raging Vitality temporary hitpoints (or 40hp without it) at lvl20 the instantaneous split-second he ceases his rage whenever he needs healing as a Superstitious barbarian? What does he do when he's underneath the margin that'd put neg-CON-plus-1? Keep his rage up and hope he rolls a "1" on that will save so the cleric can fill his tank before the monster hits him again?
Superstition is an evil, evil "power" which exists for one reason: letting munchkin players build what-they-assume are invulnerable juggernauts with an Achilles Heel internal time-bomb of which their evil, evil DM will later deliver bad news after reminding them of how the rules actually work.
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Side statement: Elf Barbarians are horrible. I need a color below red to express just how bad they are. (Don't try prove me wrong, I'm going to try and prove myself wrong later. I have a crazy idea.(TM))Keep in mind you could make a very *very* fast Urban Barbarian when you take into consideration the Elf's favoured Class bonus. Yes, you'd lose fast movement initially, but you'd eventually have a Base Movement speed of 50ft, and Urban could give you a raging DEX which would stack with an Elf's high DEX to make the excellent and nigh-uncatchable archer.
As an example, a 20 point buy could land you:
14 STR
16 DEX
14 CON (16-2)
12 INT (10+2
12 WIS
8 CHAThe Elf Barbarian could give himself a 20 DEX, or split it up into a 16 STR, 18 DEX, and would be a much more sturdy Barbarian, in that they would not be in melee range. The favoured class bonus, with 5 levels gives 5 feet of movement, making up for fast movement by level 10, and surpassing it at level 15. Nevermind the fact that an archer is bound to wear light armour, and so will be taking full advantage of this movement anyway.
Half-elves are better Urbans at this sort of thing (they get the same save bonuses, don't have a CON penalty, get a free feat for SF or EWP, and can multiclass without losing favored benefits (i.e., into fighter, and take +1/lvl CMD bonuses to disarm/sunder).
Even if it doesn't stacks with the will bonus from raging, Superstition goes higher (to +7 instead of a measly +4) works for ALL saves (ref for dodging fireballs? check, fortitude to resist energy drain? check) And it works against supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities and spells. And you still have your +4 to will against any extraordinairie abilities.
And it opens up nifty stuff like Eater of Magic, Ghost Rager and Witch Hunter.
Witch Hunter. Because extra damage against casters is always fun.
If you cheat and stack morale bonuses like they're not supposed to, and "forget" to make your save when the cleric is trying to heal you on his turn right after you took a crit to the face on the monster's turn -- saves you'll especially have to forget to make if they're so awesome you always make 'em.Superstition actually makes you less likely to die.This. You can actually make your saves much better with superstichin'.One lovely thing my Barbarian did is ping out of rage as a free action whenever he needed healing,And exactly how does he do that when it's not his turn? A free action is not an immediate action.
Is he also giving up his 60hp-worth of Raging Vitality temporary hitpoints (or 40hp without it) at lvl20 the instantaneous split-second he ceases his rage whenever he needs healing as a Superstitious barbarian? What does he do when he's underneath the margin that'd put neg-CON-plus-1? Keep his rage up and hope he rolls a "1" on that will save so the cleric can fill his tank before the monster hits him again?
Superstition is an evil, evil "power" which exists for one reason: letting munchkin players build what-they-assume are invulnerable juggernauts with an Achilles Heel internal time-bomb of which their evil, evil DM will later deliver bad news after reminding them of how the rules actually work.
It's not the best power in the world, but you do remember that even if he makes his save, he'll get half the healing, right? And I've yet to see fights that require a lot of healing mid combat.
Superstition is an evil, evil "power" which exists for one reason: letting munchkin players build what-they-assume are invulnerable juggernauts with an Achilles Heel internal time-bomb of which their evil, evil DM will later deliver bad news after reminding them of how the rules actually work.
Superstition allows you to make the save against a save or suck, keeping you moving and killing. Superstition makes you take half healing from a heal spell, which isn't great, but much better then having a full powered heal, but being paralyzed. If you think making saves isn't more important then getting heals, you're playing a different game then me.
Superstition is great.
You delay to accept a friendly buff off your high initiative wiz, then rage.
If you need healing or a later buff- Moment of clarity.
If you HAVE to drop rage- heart of the fields, roused anger.
I'll do some work to get the AC higher....
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Half-elves are better[/b] Urbans at this sort of thing (they get the same save bonuses, don't have a CON penalty, get a free feat for SF or EWP, and can multiclass without losing favored benefits (i.e., into fighter, and take +1/lvl CMD bonuses to disarm/sunder).
Half-Elves do not get to increase their speed as a favored class bonus, however. It's something to consider, especially because Urbans give up fast movement.
I'm of the opinion that if a barbarian needs healing during a fight the rest of the party needs it much more. The way my barbarian has been playing so far is get buffed up first, charge the biggest and meanest enemy, RAGE!!!, trade blows until one of us die, help the rest of the party mop up the mooks, after the fight get healed.
I have a pretty good attack and do a lot of damage. My AC is low but I compensate by having too much HP (20con, toughness and some luck die rolls, I have more HP than most monsters my CR).My groups casters are pretty nice about distributing buff on the beggining of fights, they always keep a pair of Hastes and Enlarge Persons prepared. And I make a point of paying for the healing wands, since I use around half of one every two or three fights, so we buy them in bulk.
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If you cheat and stack morale bonuses like they're not supposed to
Just wanted to bip on this. I've dealt with GMs who rule that because Rage is a Morale Bonus to a specific save, and Superstition is a Morale Bonus to a specific trigger, both would stack, under the logic that otherwise 'The +4 morale bonus to constitution from raging gives a +2 fortitude save bonus, should that not stack with morale bonuses from other sources either?'
In short, they rule that because it's for two separate triggers (Will saves and saving throws against specific triggers) and both apply, both would... well, apply.
Since there's two ways to interpret it that I'm familiar with, I'll be rating Superstition according to both styles of GMing.
Because I care about you as a consumer.
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Maybe I'm just stupid, but I can't find the guide any longer. Any chance someone could post a link?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ump_KFzNoD7x6aJ9ywGank5G9DzSVlef28bBbju Iq2U/edit?hl=en_US
There's my link for when it's done. Right now everything's being worked on.|
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Superstition is great.
You delay to accept a friendly buff off your high initiative wiz, then rage.
If you need healing or a later buff- Moment of clarity.
If you HAVE to drop rage- heart of the fields, roused anger.
So you've taken Superstition, then three other powers/feats/whatever to make it not get you auto-killed when you start taking too much damage? (Haven't checked, but if they're all rage powers, and your bruiser also wants the totem/pounce line, that means he's allocated every rage power until 16th level before he has a free slot for anything else.)
Maybe that's a fair exchange in the near-epic game, but I'd argue it's a hideous waste of class resources in the 1st-to-lower-teens games (which is most games, and PFS).
...or we could play a dwarf with Steel Soul and rage for +5/+4/+6 f/r/w at 1st-level relative to a human barbarian (true: it'd only be versus magic & SLA, but that's 90+% of everything we're worried about), and take Good For What Ails You at 2nd or 4th (since we're probably a drunkard anyway) and make all those nasty YouSuck conditions go away.
Much of this kind of emphasis is what I call the "overkill game" in which a particular aspect, such as highest possible strength, or saves, or caster DCs, is pursued to the exclusion of all else, and the build is saddled with crippling defects to obtain diminishing returns of maximization. Even if it all works, think of all the fun things your guy could have been doing if he had four more rage power slots to play with.
(Aside from all that, the metagamy aspect of a barbarian having to micromanage his temporary HP like an IRS agent counting beans -- rather than devoting himself to 100% roleplay-combat-monster-of-impending-doom -- is something I'll never get over.)
I've dealt with GMs who rule that because Rage is a Morale Bonus to a specific save, and Superstition is a Morale Bonus to a specific trigger, both would stack, under the logic that otherwise 'The +4 morale bonus to constitution from raging gives a +2 fortitude save bonus, should that not stack with morale bonuses from other sources either?'
In short, they rule that because it's for two separate triggers (Will saves and saving throws against specific triggers) and both apply, both would... well, apply.
Home games is as home games does, but I'm pretty certain they're wrong because "triggers" are irrelevant; what matters is the bonus (morale) and the affected aspect (will save) -- if they're both identical, then they don't stack. A 2nd-level barbarian taking Superstition gets a +2 morale bump to Fort and Ref while raging, but his Will wouldn't go any higher because he's already getting a +2 morale bump there from rage.
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To add to our Barbarian types, there is now also the Bowbarian*. There may also be a way to bring guns into this, but I'm pretty sure a longbow would be more optimal.
*Coined by Mike Schneider in his DPR thread.
At the link there are several iterations of the bowbarian; the initial one was a pure archer which just a backup melee weapon while the most recent is a true switch-hitter from first level.
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Moment of Clarity and roused anger are rage powers, and heart of the fields is an ethnicity for humans. Although personally I'd ditch roused anger, the downside is to high unless you had some way to alleviate the exhausted condition afterwards. So not that bad of an investment, in my opinion.
I understand your concern with Superstition, but I still maintain its worth picking up for a Barb. Healing in combat, while sometimes needed, isn't the most effective use of time. If it comes to that, you're in trouble as it is. Im much more interested in avoiding the save or suck effects straight up, rather than having to fish out an alchoholic drink to try to fix the problem I could have avoided up front. And any healing spell besides Heal will give you half health on a save, so you will get something out of it at the very least. Channels will get through ok as well, which at lower levels will be a more likely source of healing also.
So I dont think the power is as bad as you claim it, but I understand how it might not fit into your play style.
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5% of the time you're going to a roll a 1 and suck anyway.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this massive investment in saves still leaves the bottom quarter of the d20 "live", that means 25% of the time you're still going to suck (and any instance of suck usually heightens the incidence of further sucking).
That's a lot of sucking left over in a build whose emphasis is not sucking.
A Good For what Ails You build can fail saves on 19s and drink away the suck with a move-action.
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5% of the time you're going to a roll a 1 and suck anyway.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this massive investment in saves still leaves the bottom quarter of the d20 "live", that means 25% of the time you're still going to suck (and any instance of suck usually heightens the incidence of further sucking).
That's a lot of sucking left over in a build whose emphasis is not sucking.
A Good For what Ails You build can fail saves on 19s and drink away the suck with a move-action.
What happens when you run out of drinks? What happens if you fail your save and CAN'T pull out your drink (Hold Person, Command, Glittedust and can't see your drinks, etc)? What happens if you pull out your drink, taking an entire turn to do so, which also means you aren't attacking that turn, and fail your reroll? A lot of enemies would consider it a success to make the Barb waste his entire turn NOT attacking (move to grab drink, standard to drink). The fact of the matter is there is just as much that could go wrong with GFWAY as there is with Superstition. As it stands, I understand your desire to not have to deal with the possibility of saving against friendly spells. I just don't see that as being as big of an issue as you do, however. It comes down to play style, really.
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What happens when you run out of drinks?Bandolier w/pure hooch (90-proof) in potion vials. More bandoliers in haversack. [grin] First rule of dwarven combat: never run out of booze, because you don't feel nothin' when you're plotzed.
What happens if you fail your save and CAN'T pull out your drink (Hold Person, Command, Glittedust and can't see your drinks, etc)?
<shrug> What happens to the Superstitious barbarian who didn't plan (i.e., Moment of Clarity) on losing several hundred hit points in one particular round and is just barely hanging on, the cleric is standing by with reach-spelled Quickened Cure Mod + Heal (which SB is +7 to nerf both), and Bad Guy #3 is on-deck after the cleric -- and SB can't do squadoosh because it's not his turn?
...sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do (but the gods of irony will laugh all the harder if you set yourself up for it).
What happens if you pull out your drink, taking an entire turn to do so, which also means you aren't attacking that turn, and fail your reroll? A lot of enemies would consider it a success to make the Barb waste his entire turn NOT attacking (move to grab drink, standard to drink). The fact of the matter is there is just as much that could go wrong with GFWAY as there is with Superstition. It comes down to play style, really.
See Drunken Brute archetype -- it's a move-action for them. In any event, two chances to make a 50% save is 75%, and two chances to make a 75% save is 93.75%.
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Bandolier w/pure hooch (90-proof) in potion vials. More bandoliers in haversack. [grin] First rule of dwarven combat: never run out of booze, because you don't feel nothin' when you're plotzed.
Fair enough, but still does you no good if you fail your save and cannot access it, or your bandolier gets taken/smashed/magiced away. If weapons are fair game, that certainly would be as well once any one saw the trick done, or knew about the trick before hand.
<shrug> What happens to the Superstitious barbarian who didn't plan (i.e., Moment of Clarity) on losing several hundred hit points in one particular round and is just barely hanging on, the cleric is standing by with reach-spelled Quickened Cure Mod + Heal (which SB is +7 to nerf both), and Bad Guy #3 is on-deck after the cleric -- and SB can't do squadoosh because it's not his turn?
This is a very specific scenario, but I'll admit it could happen. However its just as likely that the barbarian goes after losing all the hp and before the cleric and has time to react and enter his moment of clarity. Its also just as likely that the barbarian goes after the cleric and has time to retreat to a safe point to recover. Point being, without knowing the details of whats going on, any of those scenarios is equally as likely to happen. Basically, both gfwai and super have their chances to shine and chances to fail, and all things equal the chances for the situations above to occur are equally as likely.
...sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do (but the gods of irony will laugh all the harder if you set yourself up for it).
Remember, it doesn't matter in the end if you fail because its how the dice goes, or if you set yourself up: a failure is still a failure. Sure, there was a chance it could have been avoided, but then again even with your method the dice can still fail. I think you just like it being "out of your hands" so to speak. I, however, have no issues with being the source of my own demise :)
See Drunken Brute archetype -- it's a move-action for them. In any event, two chances to make a 50% save is 75%, and two chances to make a 75% save is 93.75%.
Now the stats here are the one thing you have here that makes the most sense to me. But they mean nothing if you cannot, for MANY possible reason, get to your alcohol to make that save. There are just too many situations where failing that initial save would mean this is the case. As such, I place more emphasis on making that first save.
I'm of the opinion that failing that first save is far more detrimental, there are far too many situations where passing the save the first time because you have the boost will be more beneficial in the long run. You are of the opinion that you'd rather risk that instead of worrying about failing a friendly save. Which is a very fair point. It comes down to the fact that each of us is more worried about different situations. And that's wonderful, as far as I concerned.
As far as Drunken brute, the ability says "While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." It doesn't say they can retrieve the drink as part of the action, just drink it. Drinking a potion is a standard action normally, but it still requires a move action to retrieve said potion. The real benefit here is that the action no longer provokes attacks of opportunity. So even with this archetype, you lose your round to get your extra save.
Again, you've admitted as much from what I can tell, but both methods have their ups and downs. I see no point in continuing this, as its pretty clear we are in an "agree to disagree" situation on the value of this power.
Simply, I am of the opinion that Superstition is not as bad as you claim it to be, and you just dislike it because it doesn't fit your play style. Nothing wrong with that at all, you are more than welcome to your opinion, just as long as you realize its just that: an opinion.
Superstition, especially combined with Ghost rager, is awesome. Being pretty immune to Heal though REALLY SUCKS!
I think human with favored class bonus superstition and superstitious, ghost rager, witch hunter,eater of magic and spell sunder rage powers is a top build. It shouldn't be included as the only top build in the guide though.
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OK, I've adjusted his ability scores. added a +4 Manual of dex and con. (rather than a +5 Book of CON) and he's wearing +5 Celestial Armor. The armor's light so no speed loss and it let's him go after fliers.
Roused anger is gone. It was in my personal build because we use flaws and I had Knockback and knockdown for battle control. Roused anger was if you failed a save or wanted to recycle a rage power. Now the only 1/rage power before 17 is strength surge. This means you can still hit a CM or CMD check but only once per fight (and one extra for heart of the fields racial trait. I am loathe to do that since wizards usually target me with fatigue effects, so I save it for that), but this is a pouncer so he mainly just full attacks.
In place of Roused Anger, I took Superstition at 7 and Clear Mind at 8 (the final will save is ONLY 22, so nice to have against will save or lose which he still gets targeted with alot.( The wiz won't know if he has superstition or not, after all)
Ability scores are a little different
giving him 1 less Fort save (35), 1 better reflex (23) and 1 better will (22),
It means his final con mod is +8 rather than +9 in the origonal build.
So two handing on Raging Brutality gives a +12 damage bonus instead of +13.
Final AC is 40 when raging and 36 with Come and get me. NO Defending armor spikes (thanks for pointing that out). This is much better.
Now, to the comment about not putting Good for what ails you earlier in the build. I like the power, BUT!- it doesn't cover the nasty things like domination and I don't think it works on fatigue or exhausted (even though they're in the description), this is because CORE rules say rage powers ONLY work when raging. If you've taken fatigue or exhausted, you are no longer raging so cannot benefit from it. Clear Mind on the other hand gives you a re-roll and takes no action.
The only power I've taken to get around superstition for friendly buffs is Moment of Clarity. Heart of the fields will let me drop and re-enter rage and is a Racial Ability. You can get 2 friendly spells this way.
At the start of Combat let the party cleric and Wizard go before you. They can drop haste, enlarge or whatever. You then rage and pounce. If you need healing or condition removal-moment of clarity. Any smart enemy caster usually targets the party caster first (they are 'more powerful' than you :) so you getting hit with a will save or lose is kinda rare.
I have NO IDEA about the best 20th level rage power for this build. It's kinda hit it's peak by 17 so any suggestions would be appreciated.
To the person suggesting the ghost armor power. It sounds good but incorporal ain't that common. Maybe at level 20?
Race: Human (Heart of the fields- 1/day ignore fatigue or exhaustion)
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Ability Scores:
STR 17 +2 Human (Level to 22, Belt of Physical Perfection 28)
DEX 15 (Level to 16 Belt of Physical Perfection 22 +4 Manuel= 26)
CON 15 (Level to 16 Belt of Physical Perfection 22 +4 Manual =26)
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 7
Favored Class:
Human= 4 skill points per level, Favored Bonus: 2 to skills, 18 to Superstition
Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
Extreme Endurance, Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
DR2/-, Reckless Abandon
Combat Reflexes
DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem
Extra Rage Power: Superstition
DR4/-, Clear Mind
Cold Resist2, Extra Rage Power: Moment of Clarity
DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
Greater Rage Dazing Assault
Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
Raging Brutality
[b]DR7/-, Witchhunter
Cold Resist4, Raging Deathblow
DR8/-, Spell Sunder
Tireless Rage, Surprise Accuracy
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Unexpected Strike
Extra Rage Power: Flesh Wound
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Ghost Rager?.
Gets Pounce,CaGM, Dazing Assault- You guys see how this works!!
Hit level 17 and start cycling your 1/rage powers.
Adjusted Saves (because of new ability scores, with rage, superstition and magic gear.)
Fort 35
Ref 23
Will 22
AC- 10+3(dex)+5(belt+manual+4)+6(celestial chainmail)+5(amulet)+5(ring)+5(armor enhancement)+5(defending armor spikes)+4(beast totem)-6(reckless abandon)-2(raging)=40 when raging and 36 with Come and get me.
Adds +6 to damage vs casters (re:nearly everything after CR10)
Adds +12damage (Con Mod x 1.5)per strike when using Raging Brutality.
Your attack at 20 is 20 +4(Mighty Rage) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +6(Reckless Abandon)+6(str)+2(Furious Weapon)- 6(PA)= 40/35/30/25
PA/Hasted 41/41/36/31/26
PA/Dazing Assault/Haste 36/36/31/26/21
PA/Dazing Assault/Flanking 40/40/35/30/25
Damage with +5 Furious, Corrosive, Menacing, Keen, Ghost Touch Greatsword is 2d6 +19(1.5 x str w/belt, Mighty Rage)+18(PA)+ +5(enhancement)+1d6(acid)+ 2(Furious)= av 54 per hit
60 vs Casters
72 when using Raging Brutality vs a Caster.
A fighter CANNOT match this TO HIT bonus and only the Two Handed Fighter can do as much damage per strike (thanks to Gtr Power Attack and Backswing) and he can't pounce of use CaGM
Home games is as home games does, but I'm pretty certain they're wrong because "triggers" are irrelevant; what matters is the bonus (morale) and the affected aspect (will save) -- if they're both identical, then they don't stack. A 2nd-level barbarian taking Superstition gets a +2 morale bump to Fort and Ref while raging, but his Will wouldn't go any higher because he's already getting a +2 morale bump there from rage.
See now you got me curious. Just to verify, what happens if you're getting a +4 morale bonus on strength and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls.
Does that not stack?
Home games is as home games does, but I'm pretty certain they're wrong because "triggers" are irrelevant; what matters is the bonus (morale) and the affected aspect (will save) -- if they're both identical, then they don't stack. A 2nd-level barbarian taking Superstition gets a +2 morale bump to Fort and Ref while raging, but his Will wouldn't go any higher because he's already getting a +2 morale bump there from rage.See now you got me curious. Just to verify, what happens if you're getting a +4 morale bonus on strength and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls.
Does that not stack?
Without being 100% sure i think that they stack, and they do that because although they of the same type they don't affect the same thing, one is affecting STR which as a result might increase attack rolls and the other increases attack rolls.
I'm kind of struck by the fact that no one seems to value uncanny dodge at all.
I know most of the archetypes seem to trade it for something, but no one seems to care much.
The same could be said for losing fast movement.
What's the thinking on this? Is uncanny dodge dreck now for some reason? I thought it was great in 3.x.
And I've always thought fast movement was great too.
I realize that it may be more useful to drop it for something else, but it just seems like these things are afterthoughts now for the most part in Pathfinder.
Oh uncanny dodge is a good ability but also is somewhat (if not quite) situational ability. A lot of DR on the other hand is also a good ability but is useful a lot more.
I can't really comment on fast movement.