Firearms - Now 100% More Broken!

[Guy Humual]

Please check my math, but it seems that:

1 ounce of Gunpowder is equal to 10gp
3/4th of gunpowder is saltpeter
1/3 of an item's value is the components. For Gunpowder that's 33 silver.

This means that 3/4ths of an ounce of saltpeter is worth 24.75 silver (or 25 if you round up).
an ounce of saltpeter is therefor worth 33 silver.
one pound of saltpeter is worth 52gp and 8s
one pound of gold is worth 50gp
Saltpeter is worth more then it's weight in gold.

[Shadow_of_death]

overdark wrote:

I wasn't commenting on the general system, just the fact that Gunsmithing bypasses all the previous checks and balances for crafting items.

Boy I sure do hate repeating myself.

Well previous crafting had checks (sometimes) but I'm not aware of any balances as hardly anything about them is balanced, so your fact is slightly flawed.

Quote:

I'm not aware of any source that says that mithral is easier to work with than steel.

It's not he just made that up.

Be back with the quote for that, had it when I posted that but was on my phone so couldn't link it or anything.

[John Kretzer]

overdark wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

I read some of this thread....but would like to add something about firearms touch attacks. You know how about instead of using big creatures with low touch ACs GMs actualy got a little creative and adapt the adventures to their players and use creatures with high touch ACs.

So now yer gonna insult my creativity? Why should I alter a printed adventure? Just because Paizo can't build gun rules that follow basic game balance issues? If I wanted to do that I would just write my own adventures. BTW, what are those high touch AC monsters that I should be using? Quicklings, air elementals, and ghosts. Yay what a roster.

John Kretzer wrote:

Also I saw a couple of posts by the OP complaining about hve to altering the rules for a $40 book....I see adding a sentence( to add crafts checks for making firearms and bullets) and removing the section on touch attack. That really is not that big of a thing to complain about.

I don't have to change anything really from the Core Book, APG, GMG, UM, and other than a few poorly designed encounters from a couple of AP haven't had to change much from those.

I was not insulting your creativity at all...I imagine you have great amounts of it. Just saying you should use it. If that is offensive to you I apologize. But for somebody to say in one breath they do use their creativity...than complained about having to come up with their adventures to adapt to their PCs...are you really useing your creativity...especialy when all I am really saying is just make minor adjustments if you feel that their neccessay.

As to creature with great amount of touch ACs...NPCs or monsters with class levels can have fairly high amounts.

You could also change the typical monster entery feats...etc.

Or if you don't want to do that just increase the overall HPs of the creature. The Beatiary just gives you a average....(which you can also do to published APs monster stats.)

Shrug I have probably changed minor things though every RPG book I have ever ran a game in( and suggest house rulers to the GM for games I have played in) as well the designers are not at my gaming table and cannot design a perfect game for me...nor should they even try as my perfect game will be very different from probably yours...so really I love Pazio attitude of not liking a rule change it. That is how RPGs should be built.

[John Kretzer]

I will add your goal in this thread is confusion....do you want to solve this problem or just complain about...I gaved you some very perfect option to solve the problem you are having( which I don't have)...so what is the goal here?

[havoc xiii]

Question when someone makes bullets don't they just get shoved into a mold and pressed? Same with guns right? So what "skill" would really be needed? You still pay for the materials of the gun and bullets just easier to make them.

[Maxximilius]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Actually, I think the core rules preclude you from doing either of those things. Two-weapon fighting seems to require that you wield both your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon at the same time during your full attack:

the PRD wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Italics mine. Note that any time you are holding only one pistol, you are not wielding a second weapon in your off hand, and thus not able to use the two-weapon fighting option.

Nowhere it is written you must wield the second weapon in your hand from the beginning of your round. And you could still use double-barreled pistols to get at least two main and off-hand attacks easily before having to drop a weapon.

Overdark wrote:

Right when you compare apples to oranges.

Which I was fine with but really you should compare two fighters, or two gunslingers.

Ok, so guns are broken. But they suck so much, the only way to have the confirmation of it is to use the only class able to use them at their full potential, and compare one against the well-known DPR champion of ranged combat. (What, you want to build a firearm-using fighter ? I take the popcorn and I wait while you compare them.)

Some minutes later, guns still aren't even capable of winning against a bow, even though they hit easily an AC 15-20 points lower and can as easily confirm x4 critical threats.

The only thing broken here is your logic.

[Tobias]

Guy Humual wrote:

Please check my math, but it seems that:

1 ounce of Gunpowder is equal to 10gp
3/4th of gunpowder is saltpeter
1/3 of an item's value is the components. For Gunpowder that's 33 silver.

This means that 3/4ths of an ounce of saltpeter is worth 24.75 silver (or 25 if you round up).
an ounce of saltpeter is therefor worth 33 silver.
one pound of saltpeter is worth 52gp and 8s
one pound of gold is worth 50gp
Saltpeter is worth more then it's weight in gold.

Gunpowder is actually made at 1/10th of it's actual cost.

So the saltpeter content is actually worth 7.5 silver (8 rounded up). Your numbers change drastically from there.

The reason gunpowder is so expensive in the default version is due to the rarity of its use and knowledge of how to make it. That's why a gunslinger basically has to create his own weapons and ammo. It costs way too much otherwise. After all, 100 doses of black powder is 1000 GP if store bought, but only 100 GP to create.

[Tobias]

Tobias wrote:

Guy Humual wrote:

Please check my math, but it seems that:

1 ounce of Gunpowder is equal to 10gp
3/4th of gunpowder is saltpeter
1/3 of an item's value is the components. For Gunpowder that's 33 silver.

This means that 3/4ths of an ounce of saltpeter is worth 24.75 silver (or 25 if you round up).
an ounce of saltpeter is therefor worth 33 silver.
one pound of saltpeter is worth 52gp and 8s
one pound of gold is worth 50gp
Saltpeter is worth more then it's weight in gold.

Gunpowder is actually made at 1/10th of it's actual cost.

So the saltpeter content is actually worth 7.5 silver (8 rounded up). Your numbers change drastically from there.

To finish the calculation:

3/4 of an ounce of saltpeter is 7.5 silver.
1 ounce of saltpeter is 1 gp.
1 pound of saltpeter is worth 10 gp.
One pound of gold is 50gp, meaning you need 5 pounds of saltpeter to equal the cost of a pound of gold.

[Tobias]

Oh, and Gunsmithing is fine since no gunsmith can make a profit on their guns unless they settle down and become merchants.

Craft can fail, but builds items for 1/3 their base price. Players can sell their items for 1/2 their base price. As a result, they make a profit.

Gunsmiths craft guns for 1/2 their base price. Players can sell their guns for 1/2 base price. Players that spend days building guns for their personal use are fine. Those that make them to sell to try and make money are wasting their time.

At best, you can make an argument for ammunition, except a gunslinger who does nothing that build bullets to sell isn't going to have anything to fire himself, and still needs to find buyers for ammo for a weapon that aren't easy to find.

So the only potential for abuse is the making of bullets, but it's reasonable that merchants only buy bullets at 1/10 the base price as well at the basic level, since firearms are an extremely niche market.

[Guy Humual]

Tobias wrote:

Gunpowder is actually made at 1/10th of it's actual cost.

So the saltpeter content is actually worth 7.5 silver (8 rounded up). Your numbers change drastically from there.

The reason gunpowder is so expensive in the default version is due to the rarity of its use and knowledge of how to make it. That's why a gunslinger basically has to create his own weapons and ammo. It costs way too much otherwise. After all, 100 doses of black powder is 1000 GP if store bought, but only 100 GP to create.

This is if you have the gunsmithing feat :)

[Guy Humual]

Tobias wrote:

To finish the calculation:
3/4 of an ounce of saltpeter is 7.5 silver.
1 ounce of saltpeter is 1 gp.
1 pound of saltpeter is worth 10 gp.
One pound of gold is 50gp, meaning you need 5 pounds of saltpeter to equal the cost of a pound of gold.

Of course, even using this math, one pound of saltpeter is as valuable as a cow or square yard of silk.

[Tobias]

Guy Humual wrote:

Tobias wrote:

To finish the calculation:
3/4 of an ounce of saltpeter is 7.5 silver.
1 ounce of saltpeter is 1 gp.
1 pound of saltpeter is worth 10 gp.
One pound of gold is 50gp, meaning you need 5 pounds of saltpeter to equal the cost of a pound of gold.

Of course, even using this math, one pound of saltpeter is as valuable as a cow or square yard of silk.

Of course, it also assumes that the saltpeter costs the same per ounce as all the other ingredients. Could be that it costs the least despite making up most of the ingredients.

It also assumes that blackpowder has the same formula, which may not be in a fantasy setting.

Knowing that the economy of fantasy rpgs has never really worked it's usually best to think to ourselves "It's just a game, I should really just relax". ;)

[cranewings]

What if time passes in a game. I've run a lot of games where 10 or more years pass. Does the market value of GP come down?

[Tobias]

cranewings wrote:

What if time passes in a game. I've run a lot of games where 10 or more years pass. Does the market value of GP come down?

Depends on if you change the status of firearms, as their proliferation causes the costs to come down.

As for gp value, that's up to you. Personally, I know my players don't have the time, interest or patience to deal with trying to make an ultra-realistic economy, and I have no desire to work on it myself in the background. Its up to the individual GMs to decide prices, but default says no.

Frankly, the game gets really tedious if you try and figure out exactly what the market price of everything is in terms of raw materials. Pathfinder was built for heroic adventuring after all, not as a complete simulator for "Merchant: The Wealthening". Some things get hand waved for expediency and fun.

After all, unless you feel the need to break down the value and amount of every component in a spell component pouch (remembering that a one time cost of 5gp gives all the non-gp valued material components a magic user will ever need in a lifetime for every single spell possible, despite the components being consumed with use) and keep track of their use, something like working out the cost of the saltpeter content in gunpowder is a little silly.

[Epic Meepo]

Maxximilius wrote:

Epic Meepo wrote:

Two-weapon fighting seems to require that you wield both your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon at the same time during your full attack:

the PRD wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Italics mine. Note that any time you are holding only one pistol, you are not wielding a second weapon in your off hand, and thus not able to use the two-weapon fighting option.

Nowhere it is written you must wield the second weapon in your hand from the beginning of your round.

Not at the beginning of your round, no. But the rules do indicate that using the two-weapon fighting option and making attacks with your second weapon are both contingent upon simultaneously wielding two weapons. Ergo, you must be wielding both weapons when you first declare that you are using two-weapon fighting, and must be wielding both weapons each time you attack with your second weapon.

(Though it's not as clear that you must be wielding the second weapon after you start two-weapon fighting but before you attack with that second weapon. So, in theory, you could start with two pistols, declare that you are two-weapon fighting, drop the second, attack with and reload the first, then draw and attack with - but not reload - the second while still holding the first. You just couldn't drop the first to reload the second while still attacking with the second.)

EDIT: And I suppose, if you want to avoid any of the silly weapon cord imagery, you could declare that you are two-weapon fighting when simultaneously wielding one pistol and an unarmed strike, attack with and reload the pistol, then 'drop' your unarmed strike and quick draw a second pistol. At which point you are again holding two weapons, allowing you to attack with - but not reload - the second pistol.

Quote:

And you could still use double-barreled pistols to get at least two main and off-hand attacks easily before having to drop a weapon.

This, of course, is a perfectly valid strategy.

[overdark]

@John Kretzer - Bestairy 1 monsters with touch AC within 2 points of (or equal to) normal AC...

Swarms (all), black pudding, cockatrice, dark creeper, darkmantle, shadow demon, imp, dog (both), dolphin, eagle, electric eel, ettercap, familiars (all), frog (both), gelatinous cube, ghost, ghoul, goblin, goblin dog, gray ooze, homunculus, horse (both), hyena, giant leech, merfolk, mite, morlock, nymph, ochre jelly, octopous, pixie, psuedodragon, dire rat, shadow (both), skum, constrictor snake, spectre, giant spider, squid, stirge, svifneblin, tengu, will-o-wisp, wolf, wolverine, worg, wraith, yellow musk creeper, zombie

Yeah that list is awesome.

No giants. No dragons. Most demons and devils are right out too. Highest CR on that list 8 (greater shadow).

So you have fun with that game.

[Moglun]

overdark wrote:

@John Kretzer - Bestairy 1 monsters with touch AC within 2 points of (or equal to) normal AC...

Swarms (all), black pudding, cockatrice, dark creeper, darkmantle, shadow demon, imp, dog (both), dolphin, eagle, electric eel, ettercap, familiars (all), frog (both), gelatinous cube, ghost, ghoul, goblin, goblin dog, gray ooze, homunculus, horse (both), hyena, giant leech, merfolk, mite, morlock, nymph, ochre jelly, octopous, pixie, psuedodragon, dire rat, shadow (both), skum, constrictor snake, spectre, giant spider, squid, stirge, svifneblin, tengu, will-o-wisp, wolf, wolverine, worg, wraith, yellow musk creeper, zombie

Yeah that list is awesome.

No giants. No dragons. Most demons and devils are right out too. Highest CR on that list 8 (greater shadow).

So you have fun with that game.

Fortunately as Omelite pointed out even against monsters with low touch AC an archer puts out more average damage, so this particular problem doesn't actually exist.

[Tobias]

overdark wrote:

@John Kretzer - Bestairy 1 monsters with touch AC within 2 points of (or equal to) normal AC...

Swarms (all), black pudding, cockatrice, dark creeper, darkmantle, shadow demon, imp, dog (both), dolphin, eagle, electric eel, ettercap, familiars (all), frog (both), gelatinous cube, ghost, ghoul, goblin, goblin dog, gray ooze, homunculus, horse (both), hyena, giant leech, merfolk, mite, morlock, nymph, ochre jelly, octopous, pixie, psuedodragon, dire rat, shadow (both), skum, constrictor snake, spectre, giant spider, squid, stirge, svifneblin, tengu, will-o-wisp, wolf, wolverine, worg, wraith, yellow musk creeper, zombie

Yeah that list is awesome.

No giants. No dragons. Most demons and devils are right out too. Highest CR on that list 8 (greater shadow).

So you have fun with that game.

Again, the most basic gun misfires as often as the critically hit, then misfire twice as often if you use paper cartridges (which you have to do hit properly).

Then you have to be extremely close to the giants, dragons, demons and devils while wearing light armor. Within easy range for them to focus on you and get you into melee.

That basic issue gets completely ignored when you're judging solely against motionless AC dummies (and ignoring cost and misfire, see iron golem encounter for reasons why).

Touch attack is a nice benefit. It just comes with a lot of downsides that balance it out.

It doesn't matter if you can hit the Tarrasque with every single hit so long as you don't misfire. That just means that it's going to focus on you and you had to be well within its reach, or very easy to get there. Same goes with just about anything with really easy touch AC's, since they're generally big and deal lots of damage.

[A Man In Black]

Here's the upshot. See what I did there?

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way.

Gunslingers are (as far as anyone can tell) the top-performing gun users, and gunslingers don't outdamage archers when you take misfires into account. This does change when you allow advanced firearms, which are explicitly intended to replace muscle-powered weapons, or when you combine double-barreled weapons with a mechanic to overcome their misfire issues (greater reliable firearms or the Pistolero's 13th-level ability).

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way.

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

Checks that automatically succeed if you're trained in Spellcraft, not exceeding your own caster level, and not attempting to otherwise bypass the prerequisites for making an item.

[Omelite]

overdark wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Are you jhust being stupid on purpose or are really that ignorant?

So why does everything have to be about giants? or dragons? demons or devils?

Do other things...heck run non-combat adventures.

Or reall all you have to do is just increase their HPs. HPs is by far more important than AC anyway.

Wow ok, so I guess I should refrain from blowin up on you.

Giants and dragons and demons and devils are iconic thats why.

Just ignore the fact that all higher CR monsters have a great disparity between their AC and Touch AC.

I already showed that an archer could out-DPR a gunslinger even against monsters with high AC and low touch AC like dragons or golems.

The only way a gunslinger is going to get the advantage is by using questionable double-barreled full attack cheese or by dual-wielding pepperboxes and spending off-rounds reloading (doing more nova damage during the first two rounds, but about the same amount of sustained damage after that).

Not having manyshot or weapon training hurts the gunslinger more than targeting touch AC helps him. The gunslinger isn't an OP damage beast, even against the big monsters. He'll hit more reliably than an archer, but he'll still do less or at best comparable damage on average per round.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

Checks that automatically succeed if you're trained in Spellcraft, not exceeding your own caster level, and not attempting to otherwise bypass the prerequisites for making an item.

Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks. If, and, but, yeah thats a compelling argument.

Your right. Thats why you only made the top 32.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks.

A check that automatically succeeds is not functionally different from no check at all.

The reason that spell item crafting checks exist is so you can do fancy stunts that have a risk of failure, not because the standard and boring crafting has any chance whatsoever of failing. Gunsmithing has no fancy crafting tricks, so the formality of a check you can't possibly fail at has been disposed of.

[Guy Humual]

overdark wrote:

Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks. If, and, but, yeah thats a compelling argument.

Your right.

Where would that 1st level gunslinger get the money to craft stuff? You know treasure in D&D and Pathfinder is scaled right?

[overdark]

Guy Humual wrote:

overdark wrote:

Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks. If, and, but, yeah thats a compelling argument.

Your right.

Where would that 1st level gunslinger get the money to craft stuff? You know treasure in D&D and Pathfinder is scaled right?

How about a gunsmith in the employ of Absalom, they've got plenty of money.

1st level gunsmiths can turn out a pistol per day. No checks.

1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.

[wraithstrike]

overdark wrote:

Your right. Thats why you only made the top 32.

What does this have to do with anything?

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

Gorbacz wrote:

HeHateMe wrote:

An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.

The DPR thread shows a bow Inquistor at 78 DPR and a Gunslinger at 95 - 144 DPR depending on build.

using what weapons??? At what level?

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.

The DC on those checks is DC 6. You can take 10 on crafting. They can't possibly fail.

[Xaaon of Korvosa]

overdark wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way.

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

Because magic item failures can become cursed...

Guns are not magical...unless of course you're enchanting them, then you use the magic item creation rules. Don't compare magic with mundane.

[John Kretzer]

overdark wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way.

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

And it should 100% because that is what balance is about.

We have very different views of wehat is balance I suspect. The gunslinger is the only class that absolutely relies on crafting things to function. Sure low level casting class greatly benefit from wand and scrolls(which they can pretty much make with a auto the sucess so they really don't roll either) at low levels..I can see where they are similiar...but at high levels...most of my casters don't both with wand or scrolls or even staves. A gunslinger will always need to be able to make bullets...there is no escaping it.

That is why it is balanced.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.

The DC on those checks is DC 6. You can take 10 on crafting. They can't possibly fail.

I didn't say they could.

Just that 1st level gunsmiths can make ALL firearms not just low level items.

1st level wizards can't even make +1 weapons. Except without raising the DC becuase they don't meet all the prerequistes.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Just that 1st level gunsmiths can make ALL firearms not just low level items.

No non-advanced firearm is broken in the hands of a first-level character. They are more or less as powerful as a longbow (which can be had more cheaply for zero crafting time), and have considerably less game impact than many wands.

[John Kretzer]

overdark wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Are you jhust being stupid on purpose or are really that ignorant?

So why does everything have to be about giants? or dragons? demons or devils?

Do other things...heck run non-combat adventures.

Or reall all you have to do is just increase their HPs. HPs is by far more important than AC anyway.

Wow ok, so I guess I should refrain from blowin up on you.

Giants and dragons and demons and devils are iconic thats why.

Just ignore the fact that all higher CR monsters have a great disparity between their AC and Touch AC.

Ok so instead of taking the average HPs of say a dragon...just increase it. Example:

CR19 Ancient Red Dragon has a average of 362 HP. Your problem of the gun slinger blow him away to fast because of the low AC. Right? Well instead of crying about it is impossible for the gunslinger to hit...just increase the dragons HP. It get 25D12+200 HP...so give it 500 HPs. That way the gun slinger can'ty take it down too far( by the way if the dragon is always with short range of the gunslinger...than you are playing dragons wrong....unless of course the dragon is right on top of the gunslinger...or any of those creature you are cxomplaing about) than you are plating them wrong.

Also dragons cast spells...there are alot of nasty spells that deal with guns in the UC...use them.

[overdark]

Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:

overdark wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way.

Except crafting magic items requires checks.

Because magic item failures can become cursed...

Guns are not magical...unless of course you're enchanting them, then you use the magic item creation rules. Don't compare magic with mundane.

Still broken, because guns require no checks, and are made faster than comparably priced items.

[A Man In Black]

An updated upshot.

Gunsmithing works exactly like magic item crafting, because the Craft skill rules are nonfunctional for what gunslingers need to be able to do. If Gunsmithing's crafting is broken, then magic item creation feats are broken exactly the same way, due to deterministic skill checks on most items.

Gunslingers are (as far as anyone can tell) the top-performing gun users, and gunslingers don't outdamage archers when you take misfires into account. This does change when you allow advanced firearms, which are explicitly intended to replace muscle-powered weapons, or when you combine double-barreled weapons with a mechanic to overcome their misfire issues (greater reliable firearms or the Pistolero's 13th-level ability).

Overdark has ceased to conduct any sort of useful discussion or argumentation on these topics, and should probably not be fed any more.

[Guy Humual]

A Man In Black wrote:

Overdark has ceased to conduct any sort of useful discussion or argumentation on these topics, and should probably not be fed any more.

Agreed

[Tobias]

overdark wrote:

How about a gunsmith in the employ of Absalom, they've got plenty of money.

1st level gunsmiths can turn out a pistol per day. No checks.

1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.

I already commented on this.

The Gunsmithing feat does not allow characters to make any money creating firearms. At all. The only people who can make money on firearms are NPC merchants.

Now, are you're saying that the feat is broken because NPC merchants can pump out guns that the PCs have to pay full price for when the PCs can get them at halfprice for the same amount? If not, is it broken because PCs can pump out guns and then sell them for THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT THAT IT COST TO MAKE THEM?

For a PC to make money with crafting guns they need to take Craft (firearms) as a skill so they can build the weapon over time using 1/3 cost (and taking years to get all the pieces properly made). That, or quit adventuring and become full time merchants running their own storefront.

The game isn't run by a computer, and the rules assume that the GM can apply basic logic to keep it from going off the rails. Gunsmithing works the way it does to make sure that firearms are viable.

But most importantly, gunsmithing is justified in not having a check in the fact that it always produces a "cursed" item! Every gun has a misfire, which steals rounds and ammo and endangers the user. At least the magic item creation feats let you roll to avoid that.

Edit: If you need an in-character reason for why Craft(firearms) takes years to make one gun at 1/3 price, while Gunsmithing lets you do it in a day or two for 1/2 price, assume that someone using Craft is making every single piece from scratch, and calibrating it or whatever. Someone with Gunsmithing has picked up all the pieces he needs from all over and is just assembling them. It's no more insane to assume that a gunsmith picks up the necessary pieces as he goes than it is for a wizard to just happen to be studying spells between levels or that a spell component costs 5 gp but holds an unlimited amount of the non-priced material components for every spell in existence.

[legallytired]

Oh no!
New mundane item crafting rules are flawed.. my fragile game-world economics are RUINED! Golarion will collapse under the weight of all those crafted guns.
Checks are involved with Craft(Alchemy) and it is still ridiculous to spend time crafting Alchemist fires even for an alchemist.

Nice to see you moved the goalposts back to the OP overdark. At least there is truth to what you're saying regarding gunsmithing but I can't see how this will ruin anyone's game.

[Tobias]

legallytired wrote:

Oh no!

New mundane item crafting rules are flawed.. my fragile game-world economics are RUINED! Golarion will collapse under the weight of all those crafted guns.

That's only because anyone and everyone gets to take Gunsmithing as a feat if they want to. I mean, it's not like a sane GM would dare treat the assumed "Emerging Guns" period as if guns were only starting to show up and were still quite rare, putting the knowledge of how to make them in the hands of a very select few.

In that vein, I suggest everyone stop helping commoners. It's their own fault for not deciding to take Aristocrat as their very first class level and getting themselves out of the mud. Darned NPCs being to lazy to abuse the loopholes. You'd think they didn't realize that the game is being run by an unthinking machine without the slightest ability to put reasonable limits on things like that. ;)

[Omelite]

As far as the gunslinger and the time it takes him to make a gun:

1. Crafting anything is generally doable with no checks. An wizard with int 18 (or an artisan with int 12 and skill focus craft [armor]) who has masterwork tools could automatically succeed on making a masterwork suit of full plate (i.e. could take 10 and succeed). Crafting is generally something people take 10 on. The wizard succeeds by spending only a skill point and the money for tools, a much lower investment than a feat.

2. Gun crafting obviously should not follow the same time rules as normal items. A level 1 gunslinger with 14 int and masterwork tools, using the normal crafting rules, would get an 18 when he takes 10. Let's say the DC for making a pistol is 15. If that's the case, it would take 37 weeks for this particular gunslinger to make a single gun.

Likewise, if the DC for creating black powder was a 15, he would only be able to create about 3.8 doses of it each day if he spent the full devoted day on just crafting the black powder (presumably an uninterrupted 8 hours of work). If he's out adventuring and is merely using his downtime to craft, then he makes just less than 1 dose per day, assuming you're even allowed to devote partial time to crafting mundane items like you can with magical crafting. Better save those shots, bro.

3. From #1, we can see that auto-succeeding on crafting isn't a problem, as it's already the status quo. From #2, we can see that the timescales simply don't work if we use the normal crafting rules.

However, you'd be correct in saying that this doesn't show that the current solution is a good one. I would even agree that it isn't. I mean come on, one feat and you're pumping out a pistol every single day? One a week would be acceptable. One a day is a little ridiculous. 100 doses of black powder per day is acceptable. 1000 doses per day is pretty unrealistic.

The problem is really just that the gunslinger creates stuff absurdly fast. He should create stuff a lot faster than other mundane crafters (lest it take him 37 weeks to craft a replacement weapon if his breaks and no gun shops are around), but it's a little ridiculous for him to mundanely craft 1000gp in items every day. Especially when some of that is being done at 1/10th of market price. With even a few of these guys as NPC crafters, the sheer amount of profit those NPCs could make per day, and the amount of black powder they'd sell, would bring the price down closer to 3x the material cost like other mundane items. We're talking about one day of work being able to produce 900gp in profit for a merchant. He could craft for literally one day out of the year, run the black powder shop in town for the rest of the year, and live a life of luxury.

Though in other news, if you thought the economy of pathfinder was realistic to begin with, you probably didn't understand the economy of pathfinder.

[Guy Humual]

Omelite wrote:

However, you'd be correct in saying that this doesn't show that the current solution is a good one. I would even agree that it isn't. I mean come on, one feat and you're pumping out a pistol every single day? One a week would be acceptable. One a day is a little ridiculous. 100 doses of black powder per day is acceptable. 1000 doses per day is pretty unrealistic.

The only way to make gunpowder was in large batches though. It was really unsafe and unstable to mix by hand because it became airborne and considering almost all lighting at the time was flame based it would be extremely unsafe. Usually the ingredients would be mixed in a sealed wooden barrel and you'd roll them slowly using something like a couple of wooden balls inside to agitate the stuff. Now I'm not sure how much the average barrel of gunpowder would weigh but I could easily imagine them churning out 62.5 pounds a day.

[Shadow_of_death]

So gunsmiths make a 1000 gold gun at first level and wandsmiths can make 1st or 2nd level wands with literally no chance of failure at first level, which are close to and more exspensive items respectively.

Gunsmithing is a dead profession as soon as you can make 3rd level wands automatically because it gives better profit. Dont see the brokeness.

And as for the touch AC thing, alchemists have been all over that since the apg, and I can throw as many bombs per day as bullets you can make per day, only they cost me nothing, sure you can buy more ammo but I can spend that same gold on alchemists fire which will do as much damage as your gun. All that plus splash damage, mutagens and extracts

[HappyDaze]

I'm not going to get into the fantasy world economics, but I still stand by the idea that since the game had a system for crafting all other nonmagical gear, guns and ammo should use the same system.

Adjusting prices would be a good start. 1 gp for 10 bullets and 2 gp for 10 shots of gunpowder might make using the crafting rules easier.