I'm starting up a new campaign and my players have asked for something that has surprised me, essentially they want to revolve around killing (evil) wizards, sorcerers and witches (after seeing some of the posts about summoners I'm glad they've avoided adding them to the list). While I never truly took to the hype about their being overpowered, I could understand where it was coming from.
Anyways, I'm not good with the 'crunch' of things but want to give them a leg up on starting off. So I wanted to be able to point them towards any classes or archetypes or prestige classes that might aid in their efforts in hunting the even more dangerous game, arcane spellcasters.
I've already figured on some of the Oracle mysteries from Inner Sea Magic and the Inquisitor archetypes from Ultimate Combat (though witch hunter seems less useful than spellbreaker, am I right?). One of the players definitely wants to be a paladin, if that helps (no experience with playing or running them, myself).
tl;dr what classes and archetypes are good for magekilling?
Oh yeah, only Pathfinder stuff, no 3.5.
As I understand it, Monks are surpisingly good in this category: high saves, grapple masters, and they can move in quickly. Similarly, rogues shine in this area. Can't cast spells on something you can't find. One well placed sneak attack and your arcane casters will be hurting. Finally, if done properly, an archer can be good against any opponent, but the warning here is that they are instantly blocked by wind-wall and a number of other spells.
All in all, you want something that can dish its damage quickly and get on top of the casters so that they have to cast defensively, be grappled, take AoO's etc. Also keep in mind that it's a bit harder to get AC up for a caster early on, so taking -2 here and there to hit isn't that big of a deal (i'm looking at you flurry of blows, and rapid shot) Hope those suggestions help. Never played a paladin, so I can't offer specific advice there.
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Only mages, if you believe the people around here. That said: a ninja is probably optimal, pressure points plus flurry of stars, while invisible and being stealthy is pretty much a game over for them. Two-weapon fighting for additional attacks. Turn their strength or dex off, which paralyzes them, then kill them.
what about those crazy anti-magic inquisitor archetypes I hear so much about?
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arcane duelist bard, or magus are pretty good at it to with disruptive, counterspelling, and tricks of their own.
supstitious human invulnerable rager beast totem barbarian, with step up line of feats and the disruptive power, is nasty
Palidin has good resistance, but YMMV on use in groups
Inquisitor (i think UM may have a good a'type)
dawnflower dervish fighter, with the +save and improved version feats, disruptive line of feats, step up line of feats, and some other goodies.
Ultimate Combat brings 3 different inquisitor archetypes that focus on killing magic dudes.
Allow for things that target the class specifically to be introduced, such as Arcanist Bane weapons.
A way for them to generate Anti-magic fields would also potentially be great.
On idea for structuring the Campaign would be to have a whole bunch of different "bosses" that each focus on one particular school of magic. That way you have them go through thematic adventures that change from Caster school to Caster school. That should provide good variety to the experience.
On idea for structuring the Campaign would be to have a whole bunch of different "bosses" that each focus on one particular school of magic. That way you have them go through thematic adventures that change from Caster school to Caster school. That should provide good variety to the experience.
Yeah we're still at pre-creation stage, it hasn't started, but I'm definitely thinking ahead of this. I'm gonna try to avoid liches or undead horde masters, though, as our last campaign revolved heavily around necromancy. Still I'm sure necromancers will pop up. But there's a lot of variation simply with sorcerers, wizards and witches (and their allies/servants). They had been talking about wizards a lot and I thought they were getting ready for a more pro-arcane campaign, this has taken me by surprise but I'm beginning to like the idea of it more and more.
what about those crazy anti-magic inquisitor archetypes I hear so much about?
They get some pretty cool stuff. Disruptive inquisition, giving them the disruptive feat from Core (which seems kinda useless, as they're mostly ranged and it works off your threat area, but there are also feats in UC that give ranged people threat so yay). There's an Iconoclast archetype for dispelling/destroying magic items, Spellbreaker which revolves more around surviving arcane abilities, and the Witch Hunter which I'm beginning to realize is a lot cooler than I had thought.
To all, yeah I heard monks were good as wizard killers, allowing for a lot of breaking of concentration, but they were considered, what, weak? Until now and Ultimate Combat and one of my players is definitely interested in the positive changes, definitely looks like the many styles one would be best for him if he goes that way.
Samurai also make damn good mage killers (in terms of resisting spells), particularly Order of the Warrior.
Saves
* A lords banner of Victory carried on the mount adds +2 to all attacks AND saves.
* Banner+ Human Alt Cav Favored Bonus offers + 7 to will saves vs Mind Effecting. Trait makes it +9 to Charms/Compulsions and Gtr Banner makes it +11.
* Honor in all things allows 5 saves a day to be made with a +4 bonus. Can stack with Resolute.
*Resolute- can roll twice for Fort or Will Saves
* Way of the samurai lets you roll 3 times for a save
Resolve –usable 10/day
Determined- removes fatigued, shaken, sickened, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, staggered.
Resolute- can roll twice for Fort or Will Saves
You have plenty of stuff to shoot for here.
I want to keep your party away from the Sandman Bard, which is basically the Spellthief redone for Pathfinder. I played a spellthief in 3.5e, and while the concept was awesome, the class was terrible. And I don't just mean it wasn't good at combat in general. It wasn't even good against mages, the -one- thing it should have been.
Now, I haven't seen the archetype in question in play, but it is close enough that I'd bet that it's just as weak.
The ideal party will probably be a Monk, Inquisitor, Urban Ranger or a Paladin, and a Druid.
The Monk will have the best defenses of the whole group. Good saves, high touch AC, several immunities, good movement and both stealth and perception as class skills. At higher levels he will also have spell resistance so will be a mages nightmare.
The Inquisitor brings a lot to the game. Monster lore to identify the weakness of summoned creatures and minions. Bane will be extremely useful when taking down minions. Also has a decent amount of skill including stealth and perception.
The Urban Ranger makes a better rogue then the rogue and will be dealing with the traps. Also favored enemies will be a huge advantage. Evil outsiders will probably come up in many if not most combats. Go for a switch hitter for versatility.
The Druid probably seems odd but He is a full caster able to convert all his spells into summon natures allies so he can even the odds by keeping the sides even. Also Wild Shape will give him both combat and scouting options.
The Paladin is going to be the heavy hitter. I would suggest an archer paladin so not to blow away the element of surprise. If you are not going to be dealing with traps he may work better than the Urban Ranger. I figure that many mages may have magical traps setup in their lairs.
I would avoid rogues and fighters as they both will be at disadvantages when it comes to will saves. With a party of divine casters healing is not going to be a huge issue. Some Wands of cure light and some scrolls will probably be all you need
1. Monk
2. Rogue with Dispelling Sneak Attack Advanced Talent
3. Paladin
4. Inquisitor
5. (Urban) Ranger, with various cabals as his favored enemies.
6. Counterspelling Cleric/Druid/Oracle
7. Homebrew Magekiller Oath Cavalier
8. Sandman Bard or whichever one is the pathfinder "Spellthief"
Seems like a fun campaign. After this, you should run a witch hunter campaign where the PCs are "witches" (unsanctioned magic-users) on the run from "evil" versions of their witch hunter PCs.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
1. Monk
2. Rogue with Dispelling Sneak Attack Advanced Talent
3. Paladin
4. Inquisitor
5. (Urban) Ranger, with various cabals as his favored enemies.
6. Counterspelling Cleric/Druid/Oracle
7. Homebrew Magekiller Oath Cavalier
8. Sandman Bard or whichever one is the pathfinder "Spellthief"Seems like a fun campaign. After this, you should run a witch hunter campaign where the PCs are "witches" (unsanctioned magic-users) on the run from "evil" versions of their witch hunter PCs.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
He may not need to homebrew the Cavalier order. Order of the Star get morale bonuses to all saves if they can threaten thier challenge.
SGG Advanced Cavalier orders has some good options as well.
I have to second the superstitious human invulnerable rager barbarian as a mage killer. A human with superstition gives you incredible saves (think maxed out paladin). In addition, barbarians can take disruptive and more importantly witch hunter, which gives you straight up huge bonus damage to anything that can cast a spell.
So to recap: basically immune to the wizards spells plus huge damage equals splattered mages on the floor.
The best spellcaster hunter is a druid or cleric. They're capable of dealing with magical defenses, have the inherent mobility and abilities to prevent escape, and are still sufficient martial threats to deal with arcane spellcasters. Don't bother with spellcasting, that's just an action economy pit.
I could see the druid, as their shapechange allows for a lot of variation, but why a cleric? Especially without spells (or was that just for the druid?).
I think the whole idea was inspired by the spellscar oracle mystery, which adds spell resistance (level+5, not great but there), energy dr, increased saves, causing primal magic events in spellcasters (which is like forcing their spell to do something else), as well as choices of antimagic spells (antimagic field, dispel magic, lesser globe of invuln, spell turning, etc)
So to recap: basically immune to the wizards spells plus huge damage equals splattered mages on the floor.
Yeah Barbarians are really good at this. Especially as their bonuses towards magekilling don't negate their standard bonuses towards everyone. I read a few mage guides and it's pretty clear the most efficient staple of the arcanist is to rely on a bodyguard or group of minions.
When he ran into the summoner, shortly after our GM picked up the APG... it went poorly. Sneaking up behind it worked well, but it was 11th+ level with a Huge bipedal eidolon versus us all at 6th. When the summoner pulled it out and...
Seeing as how close it was to APG release, there might have been errors in Eidolon construction.
Regardless, the above should articulate a warning about throwing a Summoner at the party, if they're too high of level, you run the risk of insta-gibbing the party, especially if you mess up construction. Stay away from them.
Just a quick note on tactics (vs. Wizards): Sundering a spell component pouch is often an effective way to turn Wizards into Experts.
Edit: Doing the same to an Arcane Bond item is effective as well.
I would think Intelligence and Charisma damaging poisons would do the trick. A caster can't cast if his spellcasting stat is 10 or less. Also, spellcasting stat damage also lowers save DCs and restricts higher level spell spellcasting.
And, oddly enough, those same kinds of poison quickly incapacitate low Int or Cha beasties the spellcaster may summon in or use as pets.
Ultimately, playing a magekiller comes down to a player understanding how mages in general are strong (by being prepared for a wide number of scenarios), and then looking for ways to exploit loopholes in that preparation. There's two ways of doing that: The first is the slog it out method that the Barbarian builds and similiar such things work by, where they basically try to whether the assault and close with the mage.
The second is the rogue style options that are being discussed, where the plan is to hit the mage hard and fast without warning, taking them down or out of the fight entirely in short order, preferably before they get the spell off. This approach is one of specialization, and asking the question: Can I be better prepared than the mage I'm hunting?
Yeah it's going to be tough, I think, to get them into that mindset. Evil wizards don't just hang by the side of the road, waiting to bushwhack travelers like bandits. But that's what the DM does, thinks of interesting/innovative new ways to challenge the players.
I haven't been a continuous reader on the boards here for long, is it good for DM adventure ideas?
BTW, thanks everyone for helping out.
Just a quick note on tactics (vs. Wizards): Sundering a spell component pouch is often an effective way to turn Wizards into Experts.
Edit: Doing the same to an Arcane Bond item is effective as well.
5 spell component pouches in different locations
3 spellbooks (1 not with)1 invisible familiar
Sunderproof
Just a quick note on tactics (vs. Wizards): Sundering a spell component pouch is often an effective way to turn Wizards into Experts.
Edit: Doing the same to an Arcane Bond item is effective as well.
1. Removing the pouch has no effect on spells that don't have M components.
2. First you have to identify the bonded object. Which can be a bit tricky.
1. Suddenly reducing both the number and variety of spells is well worth it. Especially considering that most spells, do, in fact. have material components.
2. Depends on the item. Weapon bonds are easiest to identify, but, depending on the preparations, any bonded item is doable.