| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Im sure Pistols can benefit from a Rapid Shot but it can be done with with just 1 pistol.
But since pistols are one handed can I use one pistol in each hand? Can he benefit from both two-weapon fighting and rapid shot?
If the Pistol has not been updated from the Tome of Secrets then it cannot be used with Rapid shot, but can be used with two-weapon fighting.
That version of a pistol is a single shot item, you are after a revolver.
If the Pistol has not been updated from the Tome of Secrets then it cannot be used with Rapid shot, but can be used with two-weapon fighting.
** spoiler omitted **
That version of a pistol is a single shot item, you are after a revolver.
Umm I see and since they are One handed (not light weapons) weapons then the Gunslinger would have -4 penealty to all attacks.
|
If the Pistol has not been updated from the Tome of Secrets then it cannot be used with Rapid shot, but can be used with two-weapon fighting.
** spoiler omitted **
That version of a pistol is a single shot item, you are after a revolver.
DO you mean revolver?.
you can rapid shot, twf, but you can only rapid shot once a round, so onlt 1 revolver gets 2 shots, the other gets 1
|
Im sure Pistols can benefit from a Rapid Shot but it can be done with with just 1 pistol.
But since pistols are one handed can I use one pistol in each hand? Can he benefit from both two-weapon fighting and rapid shot?
Yes, you can. But even with the TWF feat, by using Rapid Shot with it, you find yourself shooting with -6 to each attack.
Shoot with two double-barreled pistols, using the special attack firing both barrels at once with a -4 penalty, and you get in your round 3 attack with a -10 to hit, shooting 5 bullets = First attack shoots two bullets, you get your unique Rapid Shot bullet, and your off-hand pistol shoots two bullets.Without TWF, Your would have -10 on main hand and -14 on off-hand.
To do this, you would require Rapid Shot, TWF and two preloaded double-barreled pistols.
By using simple pistols, and with these feats, you would have 3 attacks with -6 to hit (-4 from TWF feat and two pistols, -2 from rapid shot).
Rapid Shot applies only once per round though, and gets you only one additional attack even if you use two pistols or more.
Im sure Pistols can benefit from a Rapid Shot but it can be done with with just 1 pistol.
But since pistols are one handed can I use one pistol in each hand? Can he benefit from both two-weapon fighting and rapid shot?
Yes, you can. But even with the TWF feat, by using Rapid Shot with it, you find yourself shooting with -6 to each attack.
Shoot with two double-barreled pistols, using the special attack firing both barrels at once with a -4 penalty, and you get in your round 3 attack with a -10 to hit, shooting 5 bullets = First attack shoots two bullets, you get your unique Rapid Shot bullet, and your off-hand pistol shoots two bullets.
Without TWF, Your would have -10 on main hand and -14 on off-hand.To do this, you would require Rapid Shot, TWF and two preloaded double-barreled pistols.
By using simple pistols, and with these feats, you would have 3 attacks with -6 to hit (-4 from TWF feat and two pistols, -2 from rapid shot).
Rapid Shot applies only once per round though, and gets you only one additional attack even if you use two pistols or more.
Well well well... So thats interesting. So a Level 7 gunslinger with Improved Two-weapon fightning can fire 5 times (3 with main and 2 with off hand) at -6 penalty with Revolvers (ea can shoot 6 times)
|
|
Well well well... So thats interesting. So a Level 7 gunslinger with Improved Two-weapon fightning can fire 5 times (3 with main and 2 with off hand) at -6 penalty with Revolvers (ea can shoot 6 times)
If you have enough bullets left in your revolvers (3 on main, 2 on off-hand) or are able to reload as a free action and can have a free hand at this time, yes (note that Rapid Shot lets you shot one additional time this round even if the normal reloading time would be as higher as a full-round action, it basically gives a free action reloading before your additional attack).
And it is IF your DM allows revolvers and other advanced weapons. But yes, it would be -6 per attack.
(note that Rapid Shot lets you shot one additional time this round even if the normal reloading time would be as higher as a full-round action, it basically gives a free action reloading before your additional attack)
Are you saying that you believe Rapid Shot lets you reload any weapon as a free action? I don't want to open such a can of worms in a thread about something else, but that's just wrong. Because I see no reference to this in the feat, simply that it lets you do an additional attack (which would then follow the normal rules as if it came from increased BAB, requiring reloading to be a free action). This seems to be the general consensus on the boards too. If I have misinterpreted you, I apologize for my nitpicking.
First of all think about style - if the table is ok with twfing, do it.
Classic western features no TWF (since it doesn't work IRL - one needs to aim, tough the typical "dance for me" is performed with two guns and one could have a gun in each hand to switch when one is empty - if the fight lasts that long) but Roland Deschain does TWF (and since he is a fantasy knight, he might be a better base for a epic high fantasy char as PF chars are)
(-4 sounds about right btw, for both cases - usual western gunslingers would just miss with that malus while a true master of the gun as the gunslingers of Gilead are still hits)
I would disallow Rapid Shot in combination with TWF for one simple reason: There is some kind of rapid shooting in classical western which requires the gunslinger to use his other hand to rapidly move the hammer manually (works only with revolvers since it needs a hammer and not IRL) but on the other hand, it's no gamebreaker with -6
(as for inspiration, stick to fantasy and western, as for real world gunslingers, the most realistic gunslinger from fiction is Scrooge McDuck with his "Draw? Are you mad? Do you know how much bullets cost?" - even in the legendary city of Tombstone the death count per year was below ten)
|
|
(note that Rapid Shot lets you shot one additional time this round even if the normal reloading time would be as higher as a full-round action, it basically gives a free action reloading before your additional attack).
mo it doesn't. not even a little bit.reloading a weapon always takes whatever action it takes.
Thats why people dont rapid shot heavy crossbows
rapid shot lets you make 1 additional ranged attack, provided you can make the attack (like with a bow which reloads for free)
muskets and pistols cant benefit from rapid shot unless the weilder can reload them as a free action.
now shooting with 2 different guns, but not going for extra attacks, doesnt require any penalties and lets you rapid shot
so if you have a bab of 1 and hold 2 guns you can rapid shot by shooting each gun and you arent twf
or if you have a BAB of 6 you can fire one gun at the +6 bab and the one in the other hand at the + 1 bab and its not TWF
|
I would disallow Rapid Shot in combination with TWF for one simple reason: There is some kind of rapid shooting in classical western which requires the gunslinger to use his other hand to rapidly move the hammer manually (works only with revolvers since it needs a hammer and not IRL) but on the other hand, it's no gamebreaker with -6
It work in real life.
It is possible to fire the SAA rapidly by holding down the trigger and "fanning" the hammer with the other hand.
While this is often shown in movies, it is inaccurate and unsafe and should not be attempted; it also can damage the revolver mechanism and cylinder, requiring expensive replacement. The U.S. Fire Arms Safety and Instructional Manual for Single Action Firearms describes safe handling procedures and user responsibility.
It was used with single action revolvers to get a higher rate of fire, but the accuracy is lousy.
it is a good vay to depict someone rapid firing a revolver.
With regular pistols? Sure, but... you only get one shot per pistol before reloading.
With pepperboxes? Still one shot per weapon, because you need a free hand to turn the barrels. Then again, can an intelligent pepperbox turn the barrels itself? If so, that might be an option. Reloading is still required though.
With double-barrelled pistols? Same as pistols, but you get 2 shots per firearm before reloading.
With dragoon pistols? Well... the entry states that it has a 3-bullet capacity, but nothing is written about reloading ?_? There's no rule if you can fire all 3 shots before reloading or if you need an action to rotate the barrel, like the pepperbox.
With paddle-foot pistols? Same as the dragoon pistol, except that it holds 4 bullets.
Y'know, the only viable option would have been the endless ammunition enhancement, but they ruled out firearms, slings and any non-bow and non-crossbow projectile weapons. Honestly, I would have liked an extra charge for those weapons, like +2 for bows and crossbows and +3 for other weapons.
|
Yeah, I know TWF with early firearms is a real pain in the head, but from the beginning, I really would like to fire with my both pistols with my Society character.
So I ended up spending around 4000 gp just to buy two masterwork double barreled pistols and select Two-Weapon Fighting feat for my precious five level feat slot.
Now I could fire with both pistols at the same time for the first two rounds of encounters :) then drop them to the ground and continue to fight with my main pistol. Just like Neo when he did when he ran out of ammunation. Really cool.
|
I wouldn’t trust much of the information earlier in this thread. It’s from 2011, and actually from a point before guns were published in Ultimate Combat (I think). Not exactly the latest information.
You can TWF with guns, but as had been noted, the issue is reloading. There are a few ways around that. The Gun Twirling feat let’s you holster your gun as a free action. It’s got hefty prereqs, though. Being a race with a prehensile tail might do it. Juggler Bard.
Or the Dragoon Pistol that was mentioned. It does talk about reloading. It uses a cartridge of theee shots. There’s no action to “load” shots 2 and 3. From the cartridge description, “They allow the wielder of those firearms to fire up to three shots in quick succession without the need to reload.” There’s an action to load a new cartridge. It’s a full-round action. Expect table variation on what that becomes with rapid reload. I’ve seen pretty convincing arguments that it still becomes a move action for a pistol. But your GM might disagree and say it’s a standard.
Finally, the Shadowshooting enhancement would let you fire without ever reloading. There’s just a really good chance you’re only going to do minimum damage. Having watched a bolt ace use it to great effect through The Emerald Spire, I don’t think you lose too much going that route. It’s expensive, though.
Or the Dragoon Pistol that was mentioned. It does talk about reloading. It uses a cartridge of theee shots. There’s no action to “load” shots 2 and 3. From the cartridge description, “They allow the wielder of those firearms to fire up to three shots in quick succession without the need to reload.” There’s an action to load a new cartridge. It’s a full-round action. Expect table variation on what that becomes with rapid reload. I’ve seen pretty convincing arguments that it still becomes a move action for a pistol. But your GM might disagree and say it’s a standard.
I was written in the ammunition section... I stand corrected then ^^;
Finally, the Shadowshooting enhancement would let you fire without ever reloading. There’s just a really good chance you’re only going to do minimum damage. Having watched a bolt ace use it to great effect through The Emerald Spire, I don’t think you lose too much going that route. It’s expensive, though.
Expensive? it's only a +1 enhancement, it's not that costly.
|
|
Or the Dragoon Pistol that was mentioned. It does talk about reloading. It uses a cartridge of theee shots. There’s no action to “load” shots 2 and 3. From the cartridge description, “They allow the wielder of those firearms to fire up to three shots in quick succession without the need to reload.” There’s an action to load a new cartridge. It’s a full-round action. Expect table variation on what that becomes with rapid reload. I’ve seen pretty convincing arguments that it still becomes a move action for a pistol. But your GM might disagree and say it’s a standard.I was written in the ammunition section... I stand corrected then ^^;
Finally, the Shadowshooting enhancement would let you fire without ever reloading. There’s just a really good chance you’re only going to do minimum damage. Having watched a bolt ace use it to great effect through The Emerald Spire, I don’t think you lose too much going that route. It’s expensive, though.Expensive? it's only a +1 enhancement, it's not that costly.
On a single weapon, it's not costly. On two weapons, it gets more expensive. When you consider that firearms are likely going to want Reliable as well, it bumps the cost of that by 4,000 gold each gun. All told for two +1 Shadowshooting Reliable Pistols, you're looking at 38,600 gold. That's not exactly something that's going to help you do what you want at low levels. Even if you're ok without Reliable, you're still looking at 18,600 gold just to be able to full attack with your weapons every round.
|
|
Shadowshooting mitigates the need for Reliable somewhat, because you don't need to use paper cartridges. A 10% chance to stop your full attack is a pretty big negative. A 20% chance on a musket is really bad.
But you can get away without Reliable. For PFS, you're still looking at sometime during 7th level before you even have enough gold to buy two +1 Shadowshooting weapons, and it only leaves you about 4,000 gold for everything else. So you get to use them for about 4 1/2 levels. Don't get me wrong. I'm the one who suggested Shadowshooting. I'm just pointing out that if you want TWF with guns to come online sooner, you probably want one of the other options. A Juggler 2/Gunslinger 1 can be doing it at 3rd level for the loss of 1 BAB and a slower path to Dex to Damage, but adding Inspire Courage, some spells, some Will save, and a fair number of skill points. While being able to go straight to Seeking or whatever else you want without the extra cost. It's a somewhat strange build, but you get to do what you want to do much sooner.
Dragoon Pistols are probably the easiest path, though. At low levels, you'll make it through a lot of combats without having to reload at all. May not be able to afford them until 3rd level, either, though.
Outside of PFS, crafting helps a lot with the cost of the magic guns.