I'm sure this is old hat to these forums, but I'ma rant on them again because this is when I, the most important person in my world, have become offended by them.
Ahem.
Anyhoo, Pathfinder's CR valuation on traps is ludicrous. Since when is an open, yawning, and (presumably) stationary pit present the same challenge as a giant tick, a small elemental, or a second-level PC class character? I think one of the reasons that rogues are so often viewed as "useless" is that traps aren't as robust in Pathfinder as they ought to be (when they're used at all), which means that one of the rogue's signature abilities - finding and bypassing magical and mundane traps -- is of peripheral importance.
[crotchety old man voice]Back in my day -- 1e days -- traps were freaking lethal right from 1st level. Didn't find that trap? Make a new character. I admit that this approach was too far to the other direction, but it seems to me that Pathfinder has moved way, way too far to the other end of the spectrum.
And yeah, I know I can just slash the CR by half or whatever, but the problem comes when using published Paizo adventures. Traps are underpowered and overvalued, and since the point of using a published product is to keep from having to do the work your own self, having to comb through an adventure to systematically beef up the traps to present an appropriate challenge to the PCs defeats the purpose.
Sincerely,
Ranty Foamatthemoutherson
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On a related note, I have a complaint:
Most APs so far just list the trap CR but do not list the XPs for discovering it or setting it off (I forget what the trigger is - no pun intended - for XP award in regards to trap)
APs list CR and XPs for creatures, and I would love if traps would follow that pattern.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)
The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
I think one of the reasons that rogues are so often viewed as "useless" is that traps aren't as robust in Pathfinder as they ought to be (when they're used at all), which means that one of the rogue's signature abilities - finding and bypassing magical and mundane traps -- is of peripheral importance.
That's only true in 3.X (and before). In PF, pretty much anyone can be a godly trap finder with a feat and/or trait. Bypassing a trap might be harder, but that's still doable most of the time without a rogue (bard/ranger can disarm magic traps, blah blah).
Traps are generally good in combination with other encounters. If someone falls into a pit and a bunch of orcs come around the corner, you're typically down a man and the encounter can be much harder. A trap by itself is kind of boring. If the trap alerts others (killing surprise) or does some other kind of secondary effect (closes a gate, activates a golem, sets a rope bridge on fire, etc), that's typically not a CR booster -- it's just part of the encounter (just add the trap's CR to the encounter as if it were a monster).
On another note, renaming the thread from "ORLY" to "Oh, really?" made me smile (:
The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)
Interesting. Although I've read that section and knew about the costs and such for traps, I never paid much attention before because, frankly, the cost for a rogue or anyone else to make a trap is pretty prohibitive unless they're actually detailing out their own stronghold or such. But seeing that figure now makes me realize just how valuable traps are, and if any GMs have experience with rogues who use disabled traps as a source of income. Clearly, you can't carry a spiked pit back to town, but a bear trap? Remote-activated arrows?
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Traps are generally good in combination with other encounters. If someone falls into a pit and a bunch of orcs come around the corner, you're typically down a man and the encounter can be much harder. A trap by itself is kind of boring. If the trap alerts others (killing surprise) or does some other kind of secondary effect (closes a gate, activates a golem, sets a rope bridge on fire, etc), that's typically not a CR booster -- it's just part of the encounter (just add the trap's CR to the encounter as if it were a monster).
A trap by itself CAN be boring, but it doesn't have to be. A gradual deathtrap or a trap that takes multiple rounds to fully inflict its damage can be as exciting as any combat encounter (Indy fleeing the boulder, anyone?) so it's really down to design. It's harder to design an exciting trap than an exciting combat, true, but the bloated CR values of traps make doing so prohibitively expensive in CR terms, using RAW.
On another note, renaming the thread from "ORLY" to "Oh, really?" made me smile (:
Yeah IDK Y it was changed...
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The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)
These rules point to the regular Craft rules for the purposes of determining progress; sorry for not being clear on that -- time to craft trap (and yes, high cost) are my main gripes about the current system.
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A trap by itself CAN be boring, but it doesn't have to be. A gradual deathtrap or a trap that takes multiple rounds to fully inflict its damage can be as exciting as any combat encounter (Indy fleeing the boulder, anyone?) so it's really down to design. It's harder to design an exciting trap than an exciting combat, true, but the bloated CR values of traps make doing so prohibitively expensive in CR terms, using RAW.
Meh, crafting in general is completely borked. It's not just a specific trap issue. ANyone who wants to see some truely amazing traps could do worse than to check out "The Wurst of Grimtooth's Traps" by Necromancer Games.
Jesus, I'm turning into quite the Frog God / Necromancer cheerleader today.
I'm sure this is old hat to these forums, but I'ma rant on them again because this is when I, the most important person in my world, have become offended by them.
Ahem.
Anyhoo, Pathfinder's CR valuation on traps is ludicrous. Since when is an open, yawning, and (presumably) stationary pit present the same challenge as a giant tick, a small elemental, or a second-level PC class character? I think one of the reasons that rogues are so often viewed as "useless" is that traps aren't as robust in Pathfinder as they ought to be (when they're used at all), which means that one of the rogue's signature abilities - finding and bypassing magical and mundane traps -- is of peripheral importance.
[crotchety old man voice]Back in my day -- 1e days -- traps were freaking lethal right from 1st level. Didn't find that trap? Make a new character. I admit that this approach was too far to the other direction, but it seems to me that Pathfinder has moved way, way too far to the other end of the spectrum.
And yeah, I know I can just slash the CR by half or whatever, but the problem comes when using published Paizo adventures. Traps are underpowered and overvalued, and since the point of using a published product is to keep from having to do the work your own self, having to comb through an adventure to systematically beef up the traps to present an appropriate challenge to the PCs defeats the purpose.
Sincerely,
Ranty Foamatthemoutherson
Depends on how the traps are used.
A level 2 fighter(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party. An open pit(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party.
Put an open pit, with 1 level 2 fighter waiting just around the corner to attack the players as they cross over one at a time, CR 1 + CR 1 = CR 3, now we have a challenge for a level 1 party.
The CR is meant to be a guide of how difficult it is to overcome by itself. That difficulty, just like encounter difficults can scale based on a lot of factors. A 50 foot wide pit is easy for a party with fly, to hard for a party without. Killing a golem is easy for a party with adamantitium weapons, but really hard for a magic heavy party without adamantium weapons.
A trap by itself CAN be boring, but it doesn't have to be. A gradual deathtrap or a trap that takes multiple rounds to fully inflict its damage can be as exciting as any combat encounter (Indy fleeing the boulder, anyone?) so it's really down to design. It's harder to design an exciting trap than an exciting combat, true, but the bloated CR values of traps make doing so prohibitively expensive in CR terms, using RAW.
One trap you're talking about was in 3.5 was the Compacting Room trap, right? I guess that kind of trap doesn't really fit into the concept of PF trap rules as far as CR is concerned. My question is: did it really make sense in the context of 3.5? Does adding 4 rounds of onset delay in 3.5 really reduce the difficulty of a trap by -1 CR? If the crushing room is going to crush you in 3 rounds, it gets a +1 CR bonus. Really, the difference between 3 rounds and 4 rounds is 2 CR?
I suppose the best idea is to simply eyeball the trap CR to whatever you think is appropriate if its abilities aren't clearly defined by the book.
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The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)
Oh come now... let's be completely honest, those rules in no way make trap building viable for PCs.
Rogue: Oh, it looks like we are going to be using this cave as our base of operations for a little while, maybe I should add some traps! After all I have a +20 to my Craft: Traps skill.
GM: You do know that trap construction is very costly and time consuming, right?
Rogue: Fine. I will make it a really, really simple trap. Let's say CR 2, and it can only go off once. What's the craft DC for a CR 2 trap?
GM: It's a 20.
Rogue: Sweet! I can just take ten, netting me a 30, and I can bump up the DC by ten to get it done faster. That way, I won't be spending all week just making one silly trap. So how long does it take me?
GM: It takes you 22 weeks, and 1,000 gold.
Rogue: What?
GM: I actually rounded in your favor.
Rogue: ...
Wizard: Dude, just let me cast an Alarm spell. It's only one first level slot.
Rogue: *cries*
Seriously, traps could be awesome for PCs. But no, they just unequivocally suck.
The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)Oh come now... let's be completely honest, those rules in no way make trap building viable for PCs.
Rogue: Oh, it looks like we are going to be using this cave as our base of operations for a little while, maybe I should add some traps! After all I have a +20 to my Craft: Traps skill.
GM: You do know that trap construction is very costly and time consuming, right?
Rogue: Fine. I will make it a really, really simple trap. Let's say CR 2, and it can only go off once. What's the craft DC for a CR 2 trap?
GM: It's a 20.
Rogue: Sweet! I can just take ten, netting me a 30, and I can bump up the DC by ten to get it done faster. That way, I won't be spending all week just making one silly trap. So how long does it take me?
GM: It takes you 22 weeks, and 1,000 gold.
Rogue: What?
GM: I actually rounded in your favor.
Rogue: ...
Wizard: Dude, just let me cast an Alarm spell. It's only one first level slot.
Rogue: *cries*Seriously, traps could be awesome for PCs. But no, they just unequivocally suck.
To be fair, it is more a problem with the crafting rules.
I craft a suit of masterwork chainmail +20 take a 10 -> 30 at 900 sp per week -> 4 weeks
I craft a suit of mithril chainmail with the exact same skill -> 48 weeks.
I could understand mithril taking longer, but 12 times longer is just way out of whack. There are a lot of goofy things like that when it comes to crafting.
Yeah, crafting rules do tend to be really clunky. But I've houseruled the crap out of crafting. It's really the only way to make it reasonably viable for certain things. Let's face it, digging a 10 foot deep pit trap is going to run you the cost of a couple shovels, and lots of wasted time. That's pretty much it. I gauge prices and crafting times from different things, but it sure won't take weeks to create a simple trap.
The Core Rules do include rules for making traps: See here.
(subcomplaint 1.1: there should also be a subsystem of the craft rules in order to enable Craft: Trapmaking to be a viable skill for rogues / rangers , etc.)Oh come now... let's be completely honest, those rules in no way make trap building viable for PCs.
Rogue: Oh, it looks like we are going to be using this cave as our base of operations for a little while, maybe I should add some traps! After all I have a +20 to my Craft: Traps skill.
GM: You do know that trap construction is very costly and time consuming, right?
Rogue: Fine. I will make it a really, really simple trap. Let's say CR 2, and it can only go off once. What's the craft DC for a CR 2 trap?
GM: It's a 20.
Rogue: Sweet! I can just take ten, netting me a 30, and I can bump up the DC by ten to get it done faster. That way, I won't be spending all week just making one silly trap. So how long does it take me?
GM: It takes you 22 weeks, and 1,000 gold.
Rogue: What?
GM: I actually rounded in your favor.
Rogue: ...
Wizard: Dude, just let me cast an Alarm spell. It's only one first level slot.
Rogue: *cries*Seriously, traps could be awesome for PCs. But no, they just unequivocally suck.
Digging a pit is CR 1. How much are you paying the diggers? Are they unionized?
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One trap you're talking about was in 3.5 was the Compacting Room trap, right? I guess that kind of trap doesn't really fit into the concept of PF trap rules as far as CR is concerned. My question is: did it really make sense in the context of 3.5? Does adding 4 rounds of onset delay in 3.5 really reduce the difficulty of a trap by -1 CR? If the crushing room is going to crush you in 3 rounds, it gets a +1 CR bonus. Really, the difference between 3 rounds and 4 rounds is 2 CR?
I suppose the best idea is to simply eyeball the trap CR to whatever you think is appropriate if its abilities aren't clearly defined by the book.
Actually, I skipped 3.0 and 3.5 entirely. I played 1e and 2e and then went away from D&D until Pathfinder came out. So...no, I'm not referring to that trap. :-)
Depends on how the traps are used.
A level 2 fighter(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party. An open pit(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party.
Put an open pit, with 1 level 2 fighter waiting just around the corner to attack the players as they cross over one at a time, CR 1 + CR 1 = CR 3, now we have a challenge for a level 1 party.
The CR is meant to be a guide of how difficult it is to overcome by itself. That difficulty, just like encounter difficults can scale based on a lot of factors. A 50 foot wide pit is easy for a party with fly, to hard for a party without. Killing a golem is easy for a party with adamantitium weapons, but really hard for a magic heavy party without adamantium weapons.
I think the difference is proactiveness. By itself, a 2nd level fighter poses a small but definable threat or challenge. By itself, a pit poses zero threat or challenge -- climb down under no duress, walk across, climb up under no duress. Both get you the same XP.
And it is certainly true that a trap in conjunction with a monster is more threatening than a trap by itself, but the same is true with a monster in conjunction with a monster.
Depends on how the traps are used.
A level 2 fighter(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party. An open pit(CR 1) isn't all that much of a challenge to a level 1 party.
Put an open pit, with 1 level 2 fighter waiting just around the corner to attack the players as they cross over one at a time, CR 1 + CR 1 = CR 3, now we have a challenge for a level 1 party.
The CR is meant to be a guide of how difficult it is to overcome by itself. That difficulty, just like encounter difficults can scale based on a lot of factors. A 50 foot wide pit is easy for a party with fly, to hard for a party without. Killing a golem is easy for a party with adamantitium weapons, but really hard for a magic heavy party without adamantium weapons.
I think the difference is proactiveness. By itself, a 2nd level fighter poses a small but definable threat or challenge. By itself, a pit poses zero threat or challenge -- climb down under no duress, walk across, climb up under no duress. Both get you the same XP.
And it is certainly true that a trap in conjunction with a monster is more threatening than a trap by itself, but the same is true with a monster in conjunction with a monster.
Time is a resource. I have seen multiple level 1-3 character who had difficulties climbing up a 10 or 20 foot cliff with a rope. I have seen a level 2 character get stuck at the bottom of a 20 foot deep pit.
Time is a resource. I have seen multiple level 1-3 character who had difficulties climbing up a 10 or 20 foot cliff with a rope. I have seen a level 2 character get stuck at the bottom of a 20 foot deep pit.
HOW!? A rope against a wall is a DC 5 check. A knotted rope against a wall is a DC 0.
Unless they are wearing half-plate with a 3 strength score, they can take 10 and auto-succeed. This is only a problem if they are actively being attacked. In the example being discussed (a pit trap with no enemies around) there are explicitly no enemies around to attack them and preclude taking 10.
Time is a resource. I have seen multiple level 1-3 character who had difficulties climbing up a 10 or 20 foot cliff with a rope. I have seen a level 2 character get stuck at the bottom of a 20 foot deep pit.HOW!? A rope against a wall is a DC 5 check. A knotted rope against a wall is a DC 0.
Unless they are wearing half-plate with a 3 strength score, they can take 10 and auto-succeed. This is only a problem if they are actively being attacked. In the example being discussed (a pit trap with no enemies around) there are explicitly no enemies around to attack them and preclude taking 10.
I think the problem was that no one could get up the wall to tie the rope in the first place. In that case, nobody had a decent climb check. The fighter didn't want to remove his armor, just in case something attacked, and no one else had a decent strength or ranks in climb. I am trying to remember the details, but it was a while back. I mainly just remember a level 2 party having issues with a simple 20 foot wall. It was hilarious.
I think the problem was that no one could get up the wall to tie the rope in the first place. In that case, nobody had a decent climb check. The fighter didn't want to remove his armor, just in case something attacked, and no one else had a decent strength or ranks in climb. I am trying to remember the details, but it was a while back. I mainly just remember a level 2 party having issues with a simple 20 foot wall. It was hilarious.Time is a resource. I have seen multiple level 1-3 character who had difficulties climbing up a 10 or 20 foot cliff with a rope. I have seen a level 2 character get stuck at the bottom of a 20 foot deep pit.HOW!? A rope against a wall is a DC 5 check. A knotted rope against a wall is a DC 0.
Unless they are wearing half-plate with a 3 strength score, they can take 10 and auto-succeed. This is only a problem if they are actively being attacked. In the example being discussed (a pit trap with no enemies around) there are explicitly no enemies around to attack them and preclude taking 10.
Ahhh, OK. I see where the difficulty is coming from now. And none of them had grappling hooks or pitons either, I am assuming? Whatever happened to the basic adventurer's kit?
Best trap a pc can buy is a bear trap, cheap, really strong for its level (to get out of), and only a full round action to set it. My PC has four, they are magically enchanted by this point so there still relevant at mid level
The trick with monsters and traps is largely the same. Single monster is either too strongand hard to deal with, or a dead thing because of the action economy. Multiple monsters of similar CR are just right.
Single trap has DCs too high for PCs or does irrelevant damage. Try using multiple CR appropriate traps that attack the same squares for deadly effect. After all a trap at CR should be harmful, but not deadly, it's CR+3 that should be hard on PCs and CR+4 that's positively deadly (encounter building mechanics used in practice).
Now for lvl 7 group I can get three CR 6 Flamestrike traps (as a CR 9 encounter) that can fry the group with three 8d6 (approx 84 damage on failed saves) jets of flame at the same time. So, the traps still are not deadly enough?
Well, trap costs (let alone the construction times) can lead to some... interesting effects.
In a setting that emphasizes on not giving the PCs too much wealth, there was an adventure where the PCs could get into the vault of some guild.
The vault was well protected (IIRC some four traps with a CR of APL to APL+1), and contained scenario-appropriate loot forthe APL.
The effect? Well, those guys at the guild had quite some valuable vault in there, the cost of the traps being more than ten times the treasure they protected. Unless, of course, you see traps as another form of trade goods...
Best trap a pc can buy is a bear trap, cheap, really strong for its level (to get out of), and only a full round action to set it. My PC has four, they are magically enchanted by this point so there still relevant at mid level
That gives me an awesome idea for my campaign = Tether bear trap to horse on 50 of rope. NPC holds horse calmly until the PC steps on the bear-trap...
The problem with traps is that they are completely binary.
Before level 10, traps are difficult to detect and it is always a 50/50 chance at best that the group doesn't get hosed.
After level 10, traps become irrelevant, because if they are an important part of the campaign, the party Rogue takes Skill Mastery and will always find the trap and disarm it. Static DC's of a maximum of DC 34 lead to that. If they are not an important part of the campaign, well, then they are irrelevant, too.
The only way to make them relevant again at that level is to make them undetectable or have them trigger no matter what the Rogue does, which is of course unfair to the party.
True story: Jade Regents first module, which has a big dungeon crawl, has exactly zero traps in it. I actually welcome this, to be honest.
Interesting. Although I've read that section and knew about the costs and such for traps, I never paid much attention before because, frankly, the cost for a rogue or anyone else to make a trap is pretty prohibitive unless they're actually detailing out their own stronghold or such. But seeing that figure now makes me realize just how valuable traps are, and if any GMs have experience with rogues who use disabled traps as a source of income. Clearly, you can't carry a spiked pit back to town, but a bear trap? Remote-activated arrows?
Yep,
Any time I bypass a trap by 10 or more and can disable and keep it resettable, I ask my GM to let me remove it (if it's something I can remove, usually traps on doors). Then I take it back to town and either install it in our shop, or sell it to the local locksmith.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Best trap a pc can buy is a bear trap, cheap, really strong for its level (to get out of), and only a full round action to set it. My PC has four, they are magically enchanted by this point so there still relevant at mid level
+1 This.
The traps are a joke, the bear trap and 'poachers boot' are the only traps worth using. The CR and construction costs are laughably huge.
Like I mean really?
The Vietnam war must have cost trillons for the Viet Cong for all those improvised punji pits etc...
MINIMUM cost of a pit is 250gp?? What, does that come with the title deeds of the land as well or something?
The problem with traps is that they are completely binary.
Before level 10, traps are difficult to detect and it is always a 50/50 chance at best that the group doesn't get hosed.
After level 10, traps become irrelevant, because if they are an important part of the campaign, the party Rogue takes Skill Mastery and will always find the trap and disarm it. Static DC's of a maximum of DC 34 lead to that. If they are not an important part of the campaign, well, then they are irrelevant, too.
No reason a rogue can't take 10 BEFORE level 10. He can't take 20 but can take 10.
Also at level 5 with a dex of 18.
Disarm device 5 (ranks) +3 (class skill) + 4 (dex) + 2 (Mw thief tools)+ 3 (skill focus if it is really importnat) = 17 for disable device before roll. Take 10 makes 27 which will remove most mechanical and magical traps of level 2 or lower.
That a Rogue talent I am somehow overlooking? It's been some time since I had a Rogue use trapfinding in my campaigns. ^^ Because taking 10 is only usable if you are not under stress... while I'd say doing the Perception check is okay with a take 10, disarming the trap definitely is not.
MINIMUM cost of a pit is 250gp?? What, does that come with the title deeds of the land as well or something?
Well, you see... there has been some increase in excavation permit fees...
Plus, the Hole Digger Union has set a strict framework, defining maximum allowable working time per day, as well as certain minimum wages... and you don't want your pit dug by non-professionals, do you?
See that's where I got it wrong. I had assumed the party Fighters might be digging, with the Rogue ensuring it was well concealed by bushes and camo'd up. Who'd have thunk a bunch of local Council guys would have shown up with their union?
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Time is a resource. I have seen multiple level 1-3 character who had difficulties climbing up a 10 or 20 foot cliff with a rope. I have seen a level 2 character get stuck at the bottom of a 20 foot deep pit.HOW!? A rope against a wall is a DC 5 check. A knotted rope against a wall is a DC 0.
Unless they are wearing half-plate with a 3 strength score, they can take 10 and auto-succeed. This is only a problem if they are actively being attacked. In the example being discussed (a pit trap with no enemies around) there are explicitly no enemies around to attack them and preclude taking 10.
Plus, i wouldn't allow a take 10. There is a risk of falling and injury...i pretty much houseruled out take 10 unless it doesn't happen while resting..
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Yeah, I think traps are one of those things where the crafting rules have to take the long walk off a short cliff.
Case in point, building fortifications and pit traps round and army camp overnight is impossible with the current rules. Therefore, DMs should just fiat the thing unless the session is some kind of tournament standard rules hooble like PFS.
For instance, there's a situation in Serpent's Skull's first adventure where one of the NPCs building traps around a camp seems impossible with the rules in place. Unless he has tons of money with him or some kind of trapmaking prodigy(tm) trait that circumvents the limits entirely. I haven't seen the stat block, being a player and all, but I bet that's not the case.
Similarly, that scenario had some pretty unique traps that kept us on our toes:
Another trap, which I thought both elaborate and ingenious, was the bladed room trap further on in the scenario. When closing in to a door leading to a new section of the temple the party was studying, my rogue/adrenalin addict noticed that floor had blood splatters on it. Two rolls later he had both noticed the grooves in the ceiling hiding giant axe blades AND managed to avoid being cut twine by one. It's a scarily effective trap, since you naturally go check the blood on the floor and not the room itself. The way our GM depicted the room was that it had blade holes all over it. Add in acid or spiders and it could be even more gygaxian.
True story: Jade Regents first module, which has a big dungeon crawl, has exactly zero traps in it. I actually welcome this, to be honest.
Permit me, a player who likes to play rogues, to indulge in some creative interpretation:
Party Rogue: Woohoo! A dungeon! Finally I get some face time!
GM: There are no traps here. You're just as useless out of combat as you are in combat.
Party Rogue: OK, well I'll be taking a nap on the sofa. Wake me up when we level.
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True story: Jade Regents first module, which has a big dungeon crawl, has exactly zero traps in it. I actually welcome this, to be honest.
Permit me, a player who likes to play rogues, to indulge in some creative interpretation:
Party Rogue: Woohoo! A dungeon! Finally I get some face time!
GM: There are no traps here. You're just as useless out of combat as you are in combat.
Party Rogue: OK, well I'll be taking a nap on the sofa. Wake me up when we level.
The rogue will be probably the only one with all the needed skills though. Knowledge Dungeoneering for that ooze? Check. Acrobatics and Climb to scale that crumbling wall? Check. Perception near every door? Check! etc.
High dexterity, good initiative and ranged weapons are pretty nasty that low level too. They'd wake you up pretty soon :D
If you build your rogue with Dipliomacy, sense motive, bluff, KNowledge (lcoal) it foes like this:GM: Ok you make it back to town.
Rogue: WooHoo! Civilization! Finally I get some face time.
Rest of Characters: OK, well we'll be taking a nap on the sofas. Wake me when we get back to a dungeon.Then I would argue that Int and Cha are the most important stats for a rogue followoed by Wis, Dex, con and Str in that order.
If I wanted a rogue with Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, and knowledge skills with a focus on Int and Cha, I'd play a bard. Because they do that much, much, much better than rogues.
The problem with traps is that they are completely binary.
Before level 10, traps are difficult to detect and it is always a 50/50 chance at best that the group doesn't get hosed.
After level 10, traps become irrelevant, because if they are an important part of the campaign, the party Rogue takes Skill Mastery and will always find the trap and disarm it. Static DC's of a maximum of DC 34 lead to that. If they are not an important part of the campaign, well, then they are irrelevant, too.
The only way to make them relevant again at that level is to make them undetectable or have them trigger no matter what the Rogue does, which is of course unfair to the party.
That's not entirely true. Traps can be an effective part of a combat. And in combat, it's significantly harder to find traps (distracted perception check is +5 to the DC, you can't take 10/20, and you have to spend a move action to intentionally find them minus trap spotter).
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We are fast getting off-topic(duh, this is Paizo), but that's why PFS is so gentle with rogues.
Both faction missions and regular sccenario objectives have you making everything from Diplomacy and Disguise checks to Climb and Knowledge(Arcana). And no one else will take ALL of those skills. You might have a cleric with a godlike Diplomacy score, but one who tries to roll that with the doppelgangers, while the rogue both recognizes the dastardly shapeshifters AND notices via Knowledge(local) that they are going to make a racket on the turf of the alley gang that is in Aspis Consorttium's back pocket.
Now drop that same rogue into Age of Worms and he will cry.
Well, I disagree with the Take 10 interpretation of some, but that is fine, everybody may play his own campaigns as he likes. And, sure, if you got a Rogue specialised in trapfinding, he will be able to find/disarm all traps much sooner. But who exactly specialises her/his Rogue in Trapfinding anymore?
Anyway, carry on. ^^
But who exactly specialises her/his Rogue in Trapfinding anymore?
My point exactly. The rogue's signature ability -- indeed, I would argue the ONLY reason to play a rogue instead of something else -- has been trivialized by the current trends. Trapfinding is the one thing rogues have always been able to do that others couldn't, or at least do it better and more consistently -- if there are no traps and/or traps are trivial, then you're better off playing literally anything else.
Ahhh, OK. I see where the difficulty is coming from now. And none of them had grappling hooks or pitons either, I am assuming? Whatever happened to the basic adventurer's kit?
I do agree with you in general here--my characters are always the most prepared in the party, I even usually take a pot for cooking in--but I feel forced to point out that a grappling hook wouldn't help with a pit in a traditional smooth stone floored dungeon. There's simply nothing for the hook to grab onto at the top of the pit.
Grappling hooks work for castle walls because of the battlements and crenelations, which enables the hook to grab onto an edge at a 90 degree angle from the direction it was thrown from. The pit presumably is a simple right angle onto smooth stone floor; the only possible direction it could grab onto is parallel to the direction it was thrown to, which isn't a stable configuration.
Pitons might work, but that's still DC 15 (any surface with adequate handholds and footholds, but without ledges to stand on). Probably out of take-10 range for 1st level characters unless someone's actually specialized in climbing.
Well, I disagree with the Take 10 interpretation of some,Would you also disagree with the PhB example of take 10?
Since the CRB doesn't disagree with my interpretation, I don't have to.
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate
danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10."
I count "maybe being vivisected by a trap" as being in "immediate danger", because if the roll fails, that could well be the Rogues fate. Also, being nervous about failing would also count as "being distracted" to me.
That's my personal ruling of such a situation, you may handle it otherwise.
Actually I can imagine 20 ft pit costing a lot just try to find out how much it costs to have a well dug, and that is with modern tools and machinery. How much would you ask for digging 1 meter of packed earth and then chsseling two more through stone, no questions asked not remembered where it was? I think the real cost for making everything by yourself should be lower, but crafting in general would have to receive a major revision for that and we'd be getting off topic rather fast IMO.
Personally I think that the DCs are to be modified by light and other such things. If the PCs need to carry a daylight to see anything then the traps are already working against them ;)