Those and the Scrollmaster.Are you talking about arcane discoveries?The wizard stuff in UM was power creep.
Rogues getting replaced by a better class? That's just fixing problems.
Ok i will give that one maybe two arcane discoveries created a power creep, but what did the scrollmaster do in order to create a power creep?
Let's use spoilers in order to protect this thread.
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Ok i will give that one maybe two arcane discoveries created a power creep, but what did the scrollmaster do in order to create a power creep?
Let's use spoilers in order to protect this thread.
@Jadeite
So yes wizards got two things that were a power creep in UM, that ability of the scrollmaster and the arcane discovery staff like wands. I don't think that those are a lot of things but i understand that you are afraid that this will become a trend and each book will have a little wizard power creep.
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No its about making things more complex then they need be for the sake of a name. They seem to not have fixed the issues because they wanted that name to be its own class and better then its parent class. And that is about mechanics and balance, the playtest version was an archetype made to be something else so it could be stronger then the parent class, in place of just boosting the parent class.
If you note they did the same thing with the sammy on the name, its just an archetype, but it is a balanced archetype unlike the ninja.
I'll give it a look over when I get the book, but if what has been said here is true I'll have to ban it or try and make it into what it should have been.
You're kidding about the samurai right? It's clearly better except fighting against a mounted cavalier. Better challenge, recharging challenges, resolve is amazing, not mount dependent. It's basically the playtest version with some changes I assume (haven't read it fully).
It's definitely better than cavalier.
And I definitely ninja is better than rogue.
I was hoping each would be different, but they are different AND better.
No its about making things more complex then they need be for the sake of a name. They seem to not have fixed the issues because they wanted that name to be its own class and better then its parent class. And that is about mechanics and balance, the playtest version was an archetype made to be something else so it could be stronger then the parent class, in place of just boosting the parent class.
If you note they did the same thing with the sammy on the name, its just an archetype, but it is a balanced archetype unlike the ninja.
I'll give it a look over when I get the book, but if what has been said here is true I'll have to ban it or try and make it into what it should have been.
Dude, the rogue is so weak that anything *but* completely redesigning the class would fail miserably. You seem to overestimate vastly the power of the rogue.
How would you even boost the rogue?
Have more Feats for rogues? Hah! That's a horrible fix unless the class is a fighter. The amount of feats needed to make rogues good would mean there's basically only one build for them.
Just insert new class abilities at levels? Not only is this horribly inelegant, but youm ay as well make an alternate class...maybe something like a ninja...hm.
Archetype? Sure, completely replace a lot of the rogue abilities! Make it so they can't use any other archetypes due to all the abilities you've swapped out. Oh wait...that's kinda what they did with the Ninja. Well then...
The Ninja class is what the Rogue should've been.
You seem to overestimate vastly the power of the rogue.
+1
As for ninjas being OP, that's not what I saw in the play test threads. They were good but not better than the full on martial characters.
+1
There were some threads were people like me - who didn't play test it - thought it was too powerful, but most of the actual play tests did not come to the conclusion it was broken.Most people had these issues (might have forgotten some).
A) remove the 1 free use per day
b) nerf the crippling strike ability (can't remember the name)
c) Forgotten trick should cost more.
d) boost the rogue.
e) if the ninja get rogue talents, the rogue should get some ninja powers.
And then there was the debate:
"Why char for ki? We want wis for ki" vs. "Don't use wis for ki! Char for ki balances the class."
Invisibility is good but not all the time. As a DM you can use creatures with blind sight, or use invisibility purge or see invisibility, etc.
The Rogue got a huge buff and the ninja got a nerf. What's the problem?
Since the rogue has access to the Ninja Tricks and a Ki Pool, that removed my big complaint about the ninja, so I am good with it.
Hm, unless I've overlooked something, the Rogue cannot get Ninja master tricks, while the Ninja can get Rogue advanced talents. That is unfortunate.
The wizard stuff in UM was power creep.
Rogues getting replaced by a better class? That's just fixing problems.
Rogue`s aren`t `replaced`. There are new Rogue (not Ninja) Archetypes in the book. Paizo is still encouraging people to play the Rogue.
So while Rogues can now take Ninja tricks (unlimited? or is it like Combat Trick?) they have a Feat/Trick tax in that they need to acquire a Ki pool to use most of the stronger Ninja tricks, while Ninjas get this pool for free. Since these powers ARE stronger, I think it`s reasonable to make BOTH Ninja and Rogue `buy` this Ki Pool if they want it. That also leaves non-Ki Pool Rogue/Ninja builds as possible and viable.
EDIT:
Hm, unless I've overlooked something, the Rogue cannot get Ninja master tricks, while the Ninja can get Rogue advanced talents. That is unfortunate.
WOW... That is pretty... unfortunate. Add allowing Ninja Master Tricks for Rogues to my above house-rule.
AHAHAH. Ban the Overpowered Ninja.
Dear. God.
These forums are really a lot of fun.
And the "overpowered" ninja makes pass past the radar wierd stuff like the "no AOO while casting" spells.
Right.
Who would expect a thread about the Ninja class wouldn`t discuss other stuff like spells that have been discussed in other threads.
Unlike Ninjas, I WOULD ban Firearms and the Gunslinger class for the most part from most games,
but it isn`t a game-balance or mechanical issue as much as a flavor one.
AHAHAH. Ban the Overpowered Ninja.
Dear. God.
These forums are really a lot of fun.
And the "overpowered" ninja makes pass past the radar wierd stuff like the "no AOO while casting" spells.
Can you give an example to such a spell? Or a link to where such a spell has been given.
There``s two spells that are like `aura of mithril blades` that do damage at beginning of enemy`s turn if they are near you, and importantly let you just not provoke when casting... They bypass Disruptive, but Spell-breaker (or the highest level Feat in that chain) is the only thing that bypasses that function. HEY... Where are we? NINJA THREAD... Ooooohhh... ;-)
(FYI, playing a melee character, I never rely on AoOs vs Casting, Readied Actions are where it`s at)
@leo1925 (spoiler and let's avoid further derail:
look into my profile you can find the post, in the ultimate combat thread. Cheapy kindly answered to my question and clarified my doubts.
@Quandary: ban for flavour is another completely different beats. Most times you can refluff, calling ( depending from the campaign) the paladin Sohei or the monk Anchorite or the Samurai Order of the Really Stubborn Gorgon.
In the case of the gunslinger, I love what I've seen in the playtest but I can undestand is far more difficult to refluff.
How about forgotten trick?Looks to be the same as the playtest, but the cost jumps to 2 + Cost of the trick emulated.
Ok.
Hm, I *still* think limiting FT to ninja tricks only (i.e.: no rogue tricks or combat feats), adding in master tricks as well and making it a capstone ability might have been better.
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AHAHAH. Ban the Overpowered Ninja.
Dear. God.
These forums are really a lot of fun.
And the "overpowered" ninja makes pass past the radar wierd stuff like the "no AOO while casting" spells.
It's pretty ridiculous some of the things that are talked about indeed.
I'm not too worried about ninjas being too good. I don't feel they are "too good".
However, I do feel by having the ninja, the rogue is basically obsolete. And that's a trap that shouldn't be in there.
The ninja can take rogue talents multiple times, so all rogue talents are also ninja talents. Ninjas can also take advanced rogue talents as well. So other than evasion and trap sense, a ninja is better than rogue. The ninja can take evasion as an advanced ninja trick at 10+, so they can get evasion later on.
Once the book is fully released, I'm sure the real outcry would be there. I want relative balance and flavors for classes. But the ninja really just makes the rogue really useless other than evasion at level 2 and trap sense at level 3.
I agree with you generally speaking (for me too relative balance is important to encourage diversity and imagine an interesting world).
Nevertheless, in this case just means the Rogue is lacking. Then I wait and see what the book brings to rogues.
I generally gave up with balance. Is just not Paizo's forte. They are very good at being innovative, groundbreaking, and full of flavour. They don't balance out stuff so well and they are not that good at fixing it too, as Cockatrice Stike and Antagonize have shown.
I just surrendered and decide to take them for what they are good for.
Currently, with my players we are discussing if is the case of just stop buy products and start to houserule heavily. I will nevertheless buy bestiaries up to number 100 or so :)
Once the book is fully released, I'm sure the real outcry would be there. I want relative balance and flavors for classes. But the ninja really just makes the rogue really useless other than evasion at level 2 and trap sense at level 3.
And you can just take 2 levels of Martial Artist Monk, get tons of cool stuff and Evasion and then go into Ninja. Did I mention that I love the MA Monk archetype? :D
I really thing UC puts an end to the `Paizo hates Multi-Classing` meme... 8-P
Wow are there really people that have banned every monk archtype? That seems excessive.
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The Ninja was WAY overpowered in the play test and from what i am told it still seems to be a LOT stronger than the rogue. I personally will be banning the class because rogue was around first and letting a ninja into my game would remove the rogue from existence. Which is total BS. They should of just fixed the rogue.
I also do not consider giving the rogue ninja stuff a buff. Thats stupid! It basically means that a rogue has to take another classes scraps to be worthwhile. *shakes head*
I agree. Rogue is one of the four original iconic classes in D&D. They should be preeminent at their class roles. UC turns that on its head because ninja are clearly superior to rogues. In fact, rogues are forced to spend feats and pick up ninja talents just to approach the capability of ninja. This is poor game design and Paizo should know better.
And on the Asian subject, my pet peeve wth UC is Kensai. Google it, I'll wait. The Japanese translation is "Sword Saint". It's not miscellanous martial arts weapon saint. But even bigger than that is it's a magus archetype: this is ridiculous, it should be a warrior or monk archetype. Just a couple more of the things which disappoint me with ultimate combat.
you know i kind of thought the same thing you did about the kensai at first. but then i hear they loss alot of their spell ability's and gain a huge number of martial skills in exchange and maybe the saint part can cover a little magic. as far as historically accurate goes well there was no magic anyways. im kind of half and half on it but ill wait till i see it first hand to pass judgement but it doesn't seem terrible. you could always just rename it. besides that way they spread the archtype love and gives a different view on the kensai. now sword saint agreed maybe magic for the saint part and yeah sword.. well i don't mind them being the saint of something else.
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I agree. Rogue is one of the four original iconic classes in D&D. They should be preeminent at their class roles. UC turns that on its head because ninja are clearly superior to rogues...The Ninja was WAY overpowered in the play test and from what i am told it still seems to be a LOT stronger than the rogue. I personally will be banning the class because rogue was around first and letting a ninja into my game would remove the rogue from existence. Which is total BS. They should of just fixed the rogue.
I also do not consider giving the rogue ninja stuff a buff. Thats stupid! It basically means that a rogue has to take another classes scraps to be worthwhile. *shakes head*
Wait, the rogue's class role is kick ass in combat? I thought it was to disarm traps and steal treasure. Can anyone show me how a ninja is greater at combat than a dedicated combat rogue (lets say the typical half-orc falchion rogue)?
No seriously just vanilla monk across the board? Because every single monk archtype is heads and tails above the original. So by the same logic being applied to the ninja those would be banned at the ninja banning tables too
No seriously just vanilla monk across the board? Because every single monk archtype is heads and tails above the original. So by the same logic being applied to the ninja those would be banned at the ninja banning tables too
Umm No, the Ninja archetype is not the issue. It trades
*Trap finding for poison use at first.*Ki pool for evasion at 2nd
*Trap sense for no trace at 3rd.
*Gains Light steps at 6th
*Trades Master strike for Hidden master at 20
Going off the beta anyhow
that is not all that big a deal. Myself I would have nixed Ki pool as it seems to be a feat now and rolled light steps into a talent.
No the issue is the better rogue talent rogues can't have...unless they put a feat into it and then they can't have the high end ones while the ninja gains any and all rogue talents it wants.
That is the problem with the so called class.
No seriously just vanilla monk across the board? Because every single monk archtype is heads and tails above the original. So by the same logic being applied to the ninja those would be banned at the ninja banning tables tooUmm No, the Ninja archetype is not the issue. It trades
*Trap finding for poison use at first.
*Ki pool for evasion at 2nd
*Trap sense for no trace at 3rd.
*Gains Light steps at 6th
*Trades Master strike for Hidden master at 20Going off the beta anyhow
that is not all that big a deal. Myself I would have nixed Ki pool as it seems to be a feat now and rolled light steps into a talent.
No the issue is the better rogue talent rogues can't have...unless they put a feat into it and then they can't have the high end ones while the ninja gains any and all rogue talents it wants.
That is the problem with the so called class.
Such as the quigong monk that has multiple ability choices for thier ki pool that the vanilla monk cant touch, same thing except the quigong got praise while the ninja is shunned.
shuuuuuuuuuuuun http://youtu.be/CsGYh8AacgY
Just allow a rogue access to ninja tricks freely and ban any tricks you do not like, a rogue might still have to invest in ki.
Is evasion a master ninja trick for the ninja ?
Is evasion a master ninja trick for the ninja ?
It was said they could take it at 10th
As I said, not allowing the Rogue the Ninja master tricks is an unfortunate decision.
The separation between Ninja and Rogue is made by thought alone, young grasshopper.Ore wo dare da to omotte yagaru?
MY MOTHER WAS A SAINT!!!
No seriously just vanilla monk across the board? Because every single monk archtype is heads and tails above the original. So by the same logic being applied to the ninja those would be banned at the ninja banning tables tooUmm No, the Ninja archetype is not the issue. It trades
*Trap finding for poison use at first.
*Ki pool for evasion at 2nd
*Trap sense for no trace at 3rd.
*Gains Light steps at 6th
*Trades Master strike for Hidden master at 20Going off the beta anyhow
that is not all that big a deal. Myself I would have nixed Ki pool as it seems to be a feat now and rolled light steps into a talent.
No the issue is the better rogue talent rogues can't have...unless they put a feat into it and then they can't have the high end ones while the ninja gains any and all rogue talents it wants.
That is the problem with the so called class.
Ki Pool is actually a rogue talent. (and based off of Wis instead of Cha)
As I said, not allowing the Rogue the Ninja master tricks is an unfortunate decision.
I already fixed that by creating a new Advanced Talent called Master Trick.
Okay, the rogue can get a ki pool now, that's pretty neat. The big question is, can it get vanishing trick? If so, the rogue just got fixed, even if the ninja does outclass it. If not, you're all invited to the rogue's eulogy.
Okay, the rogue can get a ki pool now, that's pretty neat. The big question is, can it get vanishing trick? If so, the rogue just got fixed, even if the ninja does outclass it. If not, you're all invited to the rogue's eulogy.
Since the rogue can take any Ninja Tricks as a Rogue Talent. So yes.
Okay, the rogue can get a ki pool now, that's pretty neat. The big question is, can it get vanishing trick? If so, the rogue just got fixed, even if the ninja does outclass it. If not, you're all invited to the rogue's eulogy.Since the rogue can take any Ninja Tricks as a Rogue Talent. So yes.
What's everyone getting so worked up about, then? What's the ninja getting that the rogue can't get for two talents? And if those two talents bother you so much, just remember that the ninja can't disable magical traps with any number of feats or talents, and that's one of the main selling points the rogue or any skill monkey can have.
Advanced Ninja Tricks... as people discussed a bit of the way up-thread...
I believe they`re still getting some Exotic Weapon Proficiencies thrown in, not to mention all the same Class Skills PLUS Nobility, and other powerful Class Abilities like Light Step or whatever...
All those ARE easily toned down via house-rule, bringing both classes to parity re: Class Abilities. I`d rather give both classes a choice about `free` access to Ki Pool vs. Evasion (Ki seems stronger, but if you don`t plan on using Ki Tricks then Evasion is nicer, and doesn`t need CHA/WIS). That pretty much leaves Ninja as a Rogue Archetype, which it is, it just happens to be a bit too much better for many`s tastes, obviously. I guess choosing Ki Pool vs. Evasion (as free/baked in abilities at fixed level) MAY influence what other Archetypes you could choose, but if it`s a choice between the two, that would be more than reasonable.
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As I said, not allowing the Rogue the Ninja master tricks is an unfortunate decision.
I like the new ninja quite a lot. The removal of the free use / cha not available as dump stat / nerf of forgotten trick etc. However, I definitely agree with this. The Rogue should have been allowed to take Ninja master tricks.
Related questin I've probably blindly stumbled past the answer to:
What all does the Rogue Ki Pool talent allow you to do on its own? Just a movement bonus? Does it have prerequisites, or scale with level?
There's also no "Extra Ninja Trick" feat in UC, so the Rogue pulls ahead on that account. And the Knifefighter archetype clearly is a combat upgrade over the Ninja ( you get d8 sneak attack dice with daggers and other knife weapons ).
Uh... I`m not sure if `extra Ninja trick` really affects Class Balance between Rogue vs. Ninja at all.
It just means both Rogues and Ninjas can spend a Feat for a Rogue Trick, but not Ninja Tricks.
Both Ninjas and Rogues can access Advanced Rogue Talents, remember, so that isn`t even a difference.
I`m sure many many players would find the Ninja`s advantages outweight a Knifefighter`s average of +1dmg/SA die,
especially given that many Ninja abilities and Tricks allow more reliable Sneak Attacking.
I do agree with your general idea, that Rogue-only Archetypes MAY sway things, i.e. offering more `umph` on the Rogue side of things. Thug Archetype is very good IMHO...
But I feel that`s a very wierd justification, saying Rogue Archetypes are the savior of the Rogue Class vs. the vanilla Ninja (basically uber-Archetype), when there`s no reason that further Ninja archetypes can`t be developed as well.
I do think a good balancing approach could be to ban Advanced Rogue Talents from the Ninja.
If the two (alt)Classes are to exist, that really makes more sense then opening all the Advanced Ninja Talents to the Rogue...
Though the comparitive strengths of those does rather matter in such things...
I could also see a limitation, i.e. like Combat Trick, of you can only take Adv. (other Class) Trick one time.
In other words, I don`t think balance is too far off, but without house-rules there are just a few too many unjustifiable power gaps.
Compare to the Samurai, which pretty much everybody found well balanced off the bat.
Uh... I`m not sure if `extra Ninja trick` really affects Class Balance between Rogue vs. Ninja at all.
It just means both Rogues and Ninjas can spend a Feat for a Rogue Trick, but not Ninja Tricks.
Both Ninjas and Rogues can access Advanced Rogue Talents, remember, so that isn`t even a difference.I don`t even know if Knifefighter is compatable with Ninja or not, but assuming it isn`t,
I`m sure many many players would find the Ninja`s advantages outweight an average of +1dmg/SA die,
especially given that many Ninja abilities and Tricks allow more reliable Sneak Attacking.
I do agree with your general idea, that Rogue-only Archetypes MAY sway things, i.e. offering more `umph` on the Rogue side of things.
Actually, Ninjas cannot take the Extra Rogue Talent feat. It's prerequisite is the Rogue Talent class feature, which Ninjas don't have.
And Knifefighter is not compatible with Ninjas, you need Trapfinding and Trap Sense as class features to exchange them in the archetype.
OK well there you go... Though I don`t think that is too convincing a difference for the people who`s issue to begin with was that Ninja Tricks were better than Rogue Talents... Probably Advanced Rogue Talents are the only thing that could sway that (i`m also not familiar with the new UC ART`s yet). Ninjas using CHA vs. WIS for Ki already lets them qualify for Eldritch Heritage easier (vs. a Rogue who wants a Ki Pool and already has to pay a Feat for it). As I wrote in my Edit, Knifefighter doesn`t seem too convincing for me in this case, though other Archetypes like Thug ARE rather compelling, and I`m not even familiar with all the UC Rogue Archetypes yet. Like BYC said, probably things will be clearer whichever way they blow after people have seen all the new UC material for both Rogue and Ninja. I do think it`s wierd that Ninja`s wouldn`t have an Extra Ninja Trick Feat like all similar Class Abilities have, so I wouldn`t base my opinion on assuming that difference is set in stone.
...So I would certainly allow a Ninja in my game, at least if there is no flavor issues, just with some modifications.
My admittedly scrambled egg views on the ninja:
Pros
1) Paizo is making money off the ninja and that helps keep them a stable company
2) Paizo is fulfilling a demand for ninja as a class, albeit not my demand
3) Paizo is adding to the rogue's toolbox
4) Arguably balanced....perhaps I should say middle of the road...when set against classes in general, if not the rogue in particular
5) Looks like it could be fun to play
Cons
1) Weeaboos suck
2) Fan Service no matter how good a business idea is going to occasionally rub some people the wrong way & possibly dilute overall quality
3) Ninja's are superfluous as a class, but that's not that new of an issue anymore so....meh.
I would like to point out something for people about the rogue tricks that ninjas can take....
Unless something changed from the Beta to the real version, there is this little piece:
Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once.
Since the advanced tricks are just an extension of the normal tricks, this is the same thing.
You can only take ONE rogue only talent that isn't already on your list. So saying "the ninja can do everything a rogue can do" is incorrect. The ninja can pick up ONE talent that a rogue gets, and then he's done.
Quick Edit: One rogue talent and one advanced rogue talent. Since those are different ninja tricks...
That`s something I`ve repeatedly fished for confirmation on, without success :-)
There were quite a few more Tricks accessing/duplicating specific Talents, so it`s more than just 1 + 1 advanced,
but that would differentiate the Ninja more and prevent them from just being Rogue+ (if it is the case).
I do find it sad/not acceptable if the Ninja basically is the better combat-optimized version while Rogue only has certain non-combat niches they excel at. That isn`t an equal balance in the game as it`s designed to be played. We will if that`s the case.