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First of all, the only reason I'm even complaining is because Paizo has seriously raised my expectations. For example, Golarion's East Asia equivalent is named Tian Xia, a term instantly recognizable by any Mandarin-Chinese speaker that has watched historical dramas. All under heaven, it is sometimes translated. Normally used for China and associated satellite kingdoms historically. Instant name recognition, appropriate usage, and even using standard Pinyin romanization! Amazing, especially considering how many cringe-worthy usages I and my friends often come across in movies and books. Many other names of people and places show similar promise.
On to the complaint: In the Faction Guide book, the asian-sounding names are a random mixture of Japanese and Chinese. If this was explained in some way (invasion? migration? regional trade city? special invitation? secret infiltration?), than it would work fine. Tian-Shu and Tian-Min are supposed to be separate ethnicities, generally found in different areas, in-game as well.
So...Monastary name Tsu Zau Na - definite Chinese structure.
Kasuri-Gama - Japanese
Shogun - Japanese
Qiang Tian - Chinese
-san, sensei - Japanese
So we have a Chinese (Tian-Shu) location, completely inhabited by Japanese (Tian-Min) monks. This feels like bad research on the part of Paizo - as I said in the first paragraph, I've come to expect much better of them. All I would need for renewed suspension of disbelief is 2 things: Why didn't the Tian-Min change the place names to their own language? and, How come these Tian-Min are in what seems to be a Tian-Shu area in the first place?
Because pathfinder (and by extension golarion) is not a world market trading game and it makes more sense to only include one Asian culture group. The two most recognized in our world are china and japan, so it also makes more sense to use aspects from both rather then just pick one.
You call yourself a DnD player and the first thing that outraged you Wasn't that they mixed elven cultures???? come on man! get your head back on straight!
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And I should be upset because of the hodgepodge of English, French, German, Latin, Greek etc. terms in the Pathfinder Core book, Beastiarys, various APs and the Inner Sea World Guide (among others)? I'm not.
And I should be upset because of the hodgepodge of English, French, German, Latin, Greek etc. terms in the Pathfinder Core book, Beastiarys, various APs and the Inner Sea World Guide (among others)? I'm not.
because ^ this guy realizes adding a different area for every culture would be annoying and doesn't make sense.
(at least I assume so)
I am similarly offended that when a generic Northern barbaric region is created the names are an unholy mix of German, Norwegian, Danish, and Saxon. This must be stopped at once. Further more those Middle Eastern supplements that mix Arabic, Egyptian, and Moorish rooted names must be written.
I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here.
More importantly why are some dwarves scottish and others irish? And does this make elves French?
More importantly why are some dwarves scottish and others irish? And does this make elves French?
Heh, remember the first Kingdoms under fire game? Those elves had an accent so thick you could walk on it.
I am similarly offended that when a generic Northern barbaric region is created the names are an unholy mix of German, Norwegian, Danish, and Saxon. This must be stopped at once. Further more those Middle Eastern supplements that mix Arabic, Egyptian, and Moorish rooted names must be written.
I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here.
I think its a different situation. Germany, Norway, Denmark, and Saxony were all founded by Germanic tribes, i.e., they have the same historical root, and I believe all speak Germanic languages. The Inner Sea World guide has specifically divided the Tian into several different subtypes, just as they have for the Mwangi (equally needed, in my opinion - I have some Ethiopian friends who immigrated to the states who talked about their surprise at being lumped together with sub-saharan blacks, then of course you also have the san who are also non-Bantu.). Asian cultures IRL also have several thousand years of independent culture.
I'm not asking for anything new. I'm asking for them to support something they already have, something that makes it more realistic, rather than bowing to the grade-B poorly-dubbed kungfu movie fanboy mentality which this really came across as for me. Want to mix them - fine, provide some kind of rationale. Or have a Tian Xia wide empire sometime in history that would provide the same kind of mixing of peoples and terms that the Taldoran Empire and Chelish Empire, among others, did in the inner sea - explaining the English, French, Latin, Greek mixture of terms.
(there don't seem to be enough surface elves left to make more than one empire - also a good reason for mixture in my book. Consolidation of what remains)
Wait, you mean a fantasy region has to conform to cultural divisions of nations that don't exist in the setting?
I'm confused.
RL nations don't exist in the setting, but RL ethnicities are pretty clearly represented. People and place names for individual game ethnicities and nations make it pretty clear that Pathfinder is based pretty heavily on RL ethnicities, especially as they might have been 2 or 3 thousand years ago.
Scottish and Irish share similar roots, both being Celtic. Scotti tribes migrated from Ireland to Scotland. Not sure if they intermarried with the Picts or killed them off. Lots of European countries had a Celtic influx, including France, the UK, and I think a few places farther east.
The point we are all making is they did what they did to make a oriental themed area of the world and they wanted the best parts of the real world orient without having to make it a split culture.
I am similarly offended that when a generic Northern barbaric region is created the names are an unholy mix of German, Norwegian, Danish, and Saxon. This must be stopped at once. Further more those Middle Eastern supplements that mix Arabic, Egyptian, and Moorish rooted names must be written.
I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here.
I think its a different situation. Germany, Norway, Denmark, and Saxony were all founded by Germanic tribes, i.e., they have the same historical root, and I believe all speak Germanic languages. The Inner Sea World guide has specifically divided the Tian into several different subtypes, just as they have for the Mwangi (equally needed, in my opinion - I have some Ethiopian friends who immigrated to the states who talked about their surprise at being lumped together with sub-saharan blacks, then of course you also have the san who are also non-Bantu.). Asian cultures IRL also have several thousand years of independent culture.
I'm not asking for anything new. I'm asking for them to support something they already have, something that makes it more realistic, rather than bowing to the grade-B poorly-dubbed kungfu movie fanboy mentality which this really came across as for me. Want to mix them - fine, provide some kind of rationale. Or have a Tian Xia wide empire sometime in history that would provide the same kind of mixing of peoples and terms that the Taldoran Empire and Chelish Empire, among others, did in the inner sea - explaining the English, French, Latin, Greek mixture of terms.
(there don't seem to be enough surface elves left to make more than one empire - also a good reason for mixture in my book. Consolidation of what remains)
I can see your point in making up internally consistent language structures for a fantasy world and mapping out how they were shaped by history. Like how the Norman conquest of England turning Anglo-Saxon into something much closer to the English of today. You'd be doing what Tolkien, the granddaddy of most if not all western rpg tropes, did with the construction of his world.
The fundamental problem is that with sweeping generalizations (all latin based languages are the same, all germanic languages are the same, all Central asian languages are the same, etc) it becomes a massive undertaking that adds a huge amount of cost to setting book production without any real increase in sales.
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The point we are all making is they did what they did to make a oriental themed area of the world and they wanted the best parts of the real world orient without having to make it a split culture.
The points I'm trying to make is that
1. Every RPG with a monk class makes an oriental themed area2. They have already made it a split culture. Look up Tian in the Inner Sea World Guide, page 20. The five major Tian ethnicities are Tian Dan, living in Xa Hoi, based on Vietnamese; Tian La, living in Hongal; Tian Min, living in Minkai, based on Japanese; Tian Shu, living in the Sucessor States, based on Chinese, and Tian Sing, living in Minata. I just want them to provide justification for mixing Tian ethnicities.
I'm definitely in favor of Paizo challenging historical stereotypes and customs, like they did with the Keleshites, where I think the women are in charge. I'm looking for them to keep the amazing internal consistency that was part of what drew me to pathfinder in the first place. If you replace the groups I'm concerned with with any other groups, I believe my point still remains valid. If you had a military group of Dwarves living in Avennara or Rivendell, singing songs to Elbereth Gilthoniel, you would want them to add a sentence or two explaining or implying how something strange like that could come about, or how these dwarves were different.
Except the Dwarves are established in LOTR whereas China and Japan exist nowhere in PF.
The fundamental problem is that with sweeping generalizations (all latin based languages are the same, all germanic languages are the same, all Central asian languages are the same, etc) it becomes a massive undertaking that adds a huge amount of cost to setting book production without any real increase in sales.
I'm not asking them to pull a Tolkien - although their depth of world development is definitely comparable, IMO. All I'm asking is for them to check with Tian group they are identifying with for a specific location-group-nation, and adding one extra sentence for me to puzzle over if they use more than one, perhaps something along the lines of "the Qiang Tian forest, found along the border between Minkai and the Successor states" or "a remnant of a failed invasion force" or "meeting secretly in the neighboring Successor States"
I always saw it as less of a sweeping generalization, and more of a snapshot of the world as it existed 2 or 3 thousand years ago - A Europe divided between expanding Germanic tribes, receding Celtic tribes, southern civilized countries, and far-off and mysterious Slavic tribes. Building from pre-historic or early historic human migrations stuff.
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RL nations don't exist in the setting, but RL ethnicities are pretty clearly represented. People and place names for individual game ethnicities and nations make it pretty clear that Pathfinder is based pretty heavily on RL ethnicities, especially as they might have been 2 or 3 thousand years ago.
"Based on".
Not "exactly the same as".
Except the Dwarves are established in LOTR whereas China and Japan exist nowhere in PF.
Really, Talon? Humans, in all their variety, are established in our world. Khazad-dum exists nowhere in PF, instead we have Dwarves following a prophecy to dig for the sky.
http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfin derChronicles/v5748btpy8l2f
"This broad overview of Tian Xia presents details on more than two dozen regions inspired by the mythology of Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, and other Asian touchstones"
Exactly our point its inspired by those places. Its not china its not japan its Tian Xia. And my point about dwarves was that in LOTR they are established and therefore your example was something that is out of lore and thus needs expaining. However just as most western europe barbaric tribes got lumped into one area so did the asian cultures. since nowhere in the lore were they separte there is no reason to explain why its a melting pot
Exactly our point its inspired by those places. Its not china its not japan its Tian Xia. And my point about dwarves was that in LOTR they are established and therefore your example was something that is out of lore and thus needs expaining. However just as most western europe barbaric tribes got lumped into one area so did the asian cultures. since nowhere in the lore were they separte there is no reason to explain why its a melting pot
But they *are* separate in the lore, which is exactly my point. They are separated out into 5 major ethnicities. I'm *not* slavishly trying to follow real life. Virtually all the European ethnicities could be generalized into Indo-European tribes, with related languages. I'm not upset that they didn't reflect those linguistic relationships.
I'm an old, but well-traveled person, not asian. I'm not on some kind of nationalistic kick, just hoping that Paizo will keep up their amazing internal consistency. I just think they slipped this time.
Do we really have to settle for "the Last Airbender" when we could have the master work of "the Inner World Guide"?
Want to mix them - fine, provide some kind of rationale. Or have a Tian Xia wide empire sometime in history that would provide the same kind of mixing of peoples and terms that the Taldoran Empire and Chelish Empire, among others, did in the inner sea - explaining the English, French, Latin, Greek mixture of terms.
It's funny that you should mention this... apparently you did not have much chance to research this, but until recently mostly all of Tian Xia was controlled by a single super empire (the "Chinese" empire). The empire has quite recently fractured.
I think this provides ample historical plausibility, yes?
It's funny that you should mention this... apparently you did not have much chance to research this, but until recently mostly all of Tian Xia was controlled by a single super empire (the "Chinese" empire). The empire has quite recently fractured.I think this provides ample historical plausibility, yes?
Good point. I thought the single super empire only covered the area of the current Successor States, though, not including the territories of the other 4 ethnicities. If the super empire is described as either multicultural, or including at least parts of areas traditionally belonging to other ethnicities, then I'm good with that. I guess both really looking forward to, and really leery of, the dragon empire's gazetteer for that reason-hoping it'll fill in details that I've been curious about. I hope they do books for Arcadia and Cameron as well.
What do the Chinese call a weapon that consists of a chain with a weight on one end and short sickle on the other?
Just because I speak English pretty much exclusively doesn't mean I don't talk about rapiers, zweihanders or katana.
I have no idea :)
English is a very borrowing language, and it makes perfect logical sense to talk about rapiers, katana, algebra, coffee, beef, kitch, or any of the hundreds of other English words that have been borrowed from other languages. Chinese (yeah, I speak, read and write 2 kinds of Chinese. Been lost in RL Tian Xia half my life) borrows much less, rebuilding borrowed concepts from Chinese roots - like dianhua (electric talk) for telephone. Even Japanese borrowings sound much different - I just looked some up online. Rimujin for limousine and heddohon for headphone. Very distinctive sounds, even in the borrowings.
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What do the Chinese call a weapon that consists of a chain with a weight on one end and short sickle on the other?
Just because I speak English pretty much exclusively doesn't mean I don't talk about rapiers, zweihanders or katana.
I have no idea :)
English is a very borrowing language, and it makes perfect logical sense to talk about rapiers, katana, algebra, coffee, beef, kitch, or any of the hundreds of other English words that have been borrowed from other languages. Chinese (yeah, I speak, read and write 2 kinds of Chinese. Been lost in RL Tian Xia half my life) borrows much less, rebuilding borrowed concepts from Chinese roots - like dianhua (electric talk) for telephone. Even Japanese borrowings sound much different - I just looked some up online. Rimujin for limousine and heddohon for headphone. Very distinctive sounds, even in the borrowings.
Japanese borrowed words only sound so different because of the limited phonetic system in that language. "heddohon" sounds quite similar to the English word "headphone" (the 'h' sound is more like an expirated 'f' than the h in English), for example. Modern Japanese borrows A LOT from English, primarily because most new words are technological, but even in the past Japanese has borrowed from many other languages, including German, Portuguese and French...not to mention Chinese. Heck, half of the Japanese lexicon is a modern Japanese pronunciation of an ancient Japanese word which is based on the ancient Japanese pronunciation of an ancient Chinese word which has since changed in pronunciation/meaning. :)
Basically languages are so super fluid that I find it pointless to complain about ethnic purity in a fantasy world language. Not to mention, Golarion is 2000 years ahead of us! Just imagine the linguistic drift that would've occured in that period of time, especially with the intermingling of cultures unified by one empire.
Yeah, I think this was a simple mistake from the writer.
I might actually call them lazy in this instance. Just mixing various ethnic elements and calling them by a relatively well known weapon name. None of the other entries for Tian Xia elements had this kind of lax style.
It is nice that laziness like this seems to be so rare at Paizo - a very nice change from the leading brand. Any chance of getting them to do something about it, or is it now canon and written in stone for all time?
Even if they would acknowledge the mistake, explain the decision, I doubt there'd be rewrite issued. Rather, they might retcon it or add to it in a later book.
All in all, these things take a lot of time. Especially with Paizo's running with scissors -schedule. :D
I was hoping they might add to it, maybe an extra line in Dragon Kingdoms on the Qiang Tian area. Is there some standard way of bringing it to their attention?
Wait. Japanese and Chinese aren't the same people?
:P
Wait. Japanese and Chinese aren't the same people?
:P
I thought they were Korean? ;-)
(And this line of thinking is how I will end up murdered face down.)
What do the Chinese call a weapon that consists of a chain with a weight on one end and short sickle on the other?
Just because I speak English pretty much exclusively doesn't mean I don't talk about rapiers, zweihanders or katana.
I have no idea :)
English is a very borrowing language, and it makes perfect logical sense to talk about rapiers, katana, algebra, coffee, beef, kitch, or any of the hundreds of other English words that have been borrowed from other languages. Chinese (yeah, I speak, read and write 2 kinds of Chinese. Been lost in RL Tian Xia half my life) borrows much less, rebuilding borrowed concepts from Chinese roots - like dianhua (electric talk) for telephone. Even Japanese borrowings sound much different - I just looked some up online. Rimujin for limousine and heddohon for headphone. Very distinctive sounds, even in the borrowings.
Another possibility is that the Chinese and Japanese languages evolved the way they did because they were both rather culturally isolated. China dealing with other nations as tributary kingdoms and refusing to allow outsiders to learn Chinese and Japan physically being cut off. This caused their languages to evolve without much real borrowing practice. If instead they had been small nations with densely populated borders like Europe was borrowing would come much more naturally and cultural mixing would be more commonplace.
Another possibility is that the Chinese and Japanese languages evolved the way they did because they were both rather culturally isolated. China dealing with other nations as tributary kingdoms and refusing to allow outsiders to learn Chinese and Japan physically being cut off. This caused their languages to evolve without much real borrowing practice. If instead they had been small nations with densely populated borders like Europe was borrowing would come much more naturally and cultural mixing would be more commonplace.
"Chinese" is not one language in many senses. Many of the various so called dialects are mutually incomprehensible. There are (depending on who you listen to) between a half dozen and a dozen distinct "dialects" iirc. They are dialects in the sense that these regional languages are subordinated to a preferred language. They are seperate languages in that they are mutually incomprehensible. Politically the current Chinese government, like the Chinese imperial governments before it, insists they are one language for obvious reasons.
*edit* Japanese is indeed an isolated and rather insular language. Even then there have been influences from China, Korea and other areas before modern times.
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What do the Chinese call a weapon that consists of a chain with a weight on one end and short sickle on the other?
Just because I speak English pretty much exclusively doesn't mean I don't talk about rapiers, zweihanders or katana.
I have no idea :)
English is a very borrowing language, and it makes perfect logical sense to talk about rapiers, katana, algebra, coffee, beef, kitch, or any of the hundreds of other English words that have been borrowed from other languages. Chinese (yeah, I speak, read and write 2 kinds of Chinese. Been lost in RL Tian Xia half my life) borrows much less, rebuilding borrowed concepts from Chinese roots - like dianhua (electric talk) for telephone. Even Japanese borrowings sound much different - I just looked some up online. Rimujin for limousine and heddohon for headphone. Very distinctive sounds, even in the borrowings.
My point is, while in general Chinese does borrow little, I'd be a least a little surprised if it didn't borrow words for which there is no need for a local equivalent - the kusari-gama is a Japanese weapon whose use hasn't really traveled beyond it, so it's quite likely that Chinese has borrowed the term as well. (There's a reason why I picked specifically weapon names for my example, in other words.)
However, if you want something that maintains a greater level of linguistic purity, consider the following suggestion: the organization that is now called the Kusari-Gama was founded in Imperial Lung Wa, and its headquarters was located in the Wall of Heaven, a stronghold now known as the Jade Pagoda. The stronghold remains intact and undiscovered, but the larger organization has not fared as well. Several centuries ago, one of the Celestial Emperors of Lung Wa banned the sect, proclaiming it heretical/danferos to the throne/both, and most of its members were forced to flee to the more-welcoming Minkai archipelago. Since that time, the sect's leadership has largely been Minkai, a fact that has had great impact on the sect's philosophies, viewpoints and terminology, and in fact Fallen Sword is the first Tian-Shu to be proclaimed the Empty-Handed Shogun in almost seven hundred years.
Wait. Japanese and Chinese aren't the same people?
:P
I thought they were Korean? ;-)
(And this line of thinking is how I will end up murdered face down.)
Obligatory: "So, are you Chinese or Japanese?"
My point is, while in general Chinese does borrow little, I'd be a least a little surprised if it didn't borrow words for which there is no need for a local equivalent - the kusari-gama is a Japanese weapon whose use hasn't really traveled beyond it, so it's quite likely that Chinese has borrowed the term as well. (There's a reason why I picked specifically weapon names for my example, in other words.)
ok, looked up kusari-gama in Chinese, and like many other Japanese loan-concepts, they used the Kanji but pronounce it in Chinese. In Mandarin Chinese it's "suo lian". The characters mean shackles or chains in either Chinese or Japanese. Loan words from English often are close in sound, from Japanese often are completely different. For instance, I have had different Chinese friends visit Tokyo on several different occasions, and they always call it "Dong Jing", using the Japanese Kanji but reading them in Chinese - means Eastern Capital by the way. (This is true both for Cantonese speaking friends {who call it "Dong Ging"} and Mandarin speaking friends - I've used Mandarin throughout for clarity and because its easier to transliterate)
"Chinese"...different languages
definitely true. Writing is the same though.
However, if you want something that maintains a greater level of linguistic purity, consider the following suggestion: the organization that is now called the Kusari-Gama was founded in Imperial Lung Wa, and its headquarters was located in the Wall of Heaven, a stronghold now known as the Jade Pagoda. The stronghold remains intact and undiscovered, but the larger organization has not fared as well. Several centuries ago, one of the Celestial Emperors of Lung Wa banned the sect, proclaiming it heretical/danferos to the throne/both, and most of its members were forced to flee to the more-welcoming Minkai archipelago. Since that time, the sect's leadership has largely been Minkai, a fact that has had...
Works for me :) This is the kind of quality I'm hoping to see in Dragon Kingdoms. Mixing the languages and cultures without explanation doesn't come across as a fantasy re-interpretation, it comes across as mono-cultural ignorance-which is not solely Paizo's fault, as Hollywood is often terrible at it, but still cringe-worthy, and worth being avoided.
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This is another variation of the "You aren't handling [Asian-themed RPG construct] correctly!" rant. On the rant hierarchy, this is one rung below a Katana thread.
In the game setting, there is no China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc., etc., and so on. Therefore, they can't "get it wrong" because it's an imaginary construct and regardless of how they define it, their definition is correct. Logically speaking, this thread shouldn't exist.
Yet they do.
-Skeld
This is another variation of the "You aren't handling [Asian-themed RPG construct] correctly!" rant. On the rant hierarchy, this is one rung below a Katana thread.
No, really, it's not. If you had actually read my post, you would see that it was about internal consistency rather than Paizo not handling A-trpgc correctly.
Internal consistency has 5 major groups, delineated by names taken from 5 different RL asian cultures. Call a Taldorian Chelish and see how he likes it.a bit jarring
This was my point. Paizo can and has done better than this.
I asked before why are all the countries have names Tian-this and that when there are different Asian cultures represented and the answer is that not so long ago the ''Chinese'' empire controlled the entire continent. So probably the name of the temple is a remnant of that era. There are similar examples in history (European, not sure about Asian).
Guang, I know what you mean. This is one of the few week points in the Golarion setting: Blatantly ripping off real world cultures, twisting only minor things and inserting them. The point is that Golarion is meant to be a what I call a "crossroad setting" like the Forgotten Realms, i.e. that there is something for everyone.
That's totally fine. There is only one problem with that: It wasn't executed consequently. You can find a very diverse number of themes in the "European" parts of Golarion, and even a few original ideas (Varisia, Cheliax, Nimbral et al.). But when it comes ot non-western pseudo-medieval cultures, many RPG-designers tend to be afraid of or unable to come up with creative results. That's why you have generic/stereotypical Vikings, Egyptians, Africans, Asians, Indians (both kind) and Arabs in Golarion. Add the standard fare of magical Elves, dour dwarves (seriously, Dwarves of Golarion was devoid of a single original idea) and brutal orcs, and you get the lowest common denominator for a fantasy world.
That's okay. It sells well. I even like it for the most part. But it's also terribly boring. So boring that I started on modifying it after my tastes.
I recommend that you do the same. You don't like it? Change it. The game is about your fantasy, not Paizos. They provided us with a world ready to play any kind of campaign in and that even stretches the limits of standard fantasy settings (see Numeria). But that does not mean you have to use their material as written.
I think this is a case of too much real world baggage getting pulled into the game. Trot out an agenda somewhere else and you, and your fellow players, will be happier for it in the end.
I seem to recall one of the developers -- I think it was James -- saying that they would like to avoid using actual, accurate Asian language terminology when naming things in Tian Xia. Instead they're going to strive to use made-up "Asian-ish" sounding names, the same way most everything in Avistan is named in a made-up, "European-ish" style.
I seem to recall one of the developers -- I think it was James -- saying that they would like to avoid using actual, accurate Asian language terminology when naming things in Tian Xia. Instead they're going to strive to use made-up "Asian-ish" sounding names, the same way most everything in Avistan is named in a made-up, "European-ish" style.
Yeah, that's my understanding too. The Campaign Setting had Sanskrit in Vudra and Chinese and Japanese in Tian Xia (the name Tian Xia is itself Chinese, meaning "All under Heaven," i.e., the Celestial Empire). Newer products will be using pseudo-Chinese or Sanskrit or whatnot. Cult of the Ebon Destroyers, for instance, only uses Sanskrit words for the non-proper nouns: Garuda, Rakshasa, and various weapons. So, while we have Oni in Golarion, the word ought to be considered a RW "translation" more or less of the Golarion creature-- being as it matches up with the RW folklore. I'd expect real Chinese and other Asian culture to thus show up in the Bestiary, in the equipment area, and other places where English doesn't possess a strongly related concept.
I seem to recall one of the developers -- I think it was James -- saying that they would like to avoid using actual, accurate Asian language terminology when naming things in Tian Xia. Instead they're going to strive to use made-up "Asian-ish" sounding names, the same way most everything in Avistan is named in a made-up, "European-ish" style.
I've noticed that too....and most of the time it is very well done. I'm not asking for authenticity, just for consistency. Tian-shu names being Chinese-ish and Tian-min names being japanese-ish works fine for me. Having everyone walk upside down because they are on the other side of the world would also work fine for me, if that's what they wanted to do. It's just that they have made a detailed distinction, as part of depth and detail I have never seen anyone else even attempt, and would like them to stick to the distinction between the different sub-groups, unless of course it's being seen through an inner sea lens, as all Tian look alike to them, just as all Mwangi look alike to them.
MEEEEEEE!